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Post by aline on Sept 5, 2018 7:04:22 GMT
Interesting that he knew the nature of the device itself, I wonder whether there was any communication between Coyote and the RoTD... And (on the very next page) whether them not seeing eye-to-eye with the 'pomps might be a plot point. Or he could just be powerful enough to discern it at a glance or something. Hmm. I think he just has a very deep understanding of the ether, and the arrow was recognizable to him in a way it wasn't to others.
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Post by aline on Aug 29, 2018 7:42:03 GMT
Well, if the trick is forgetting the Tooth and who has it, that'd be pretty meaningful. Why conceal the tooth's existence this way though? Loup doesn't even seem aware that the tooth was even given away, so why would Coyote feel the need to hide its existence inside another gift he was aware of? Misdirection. If you have a riddle and find a plausible answer, then you wouldn't keep looking for one. You think you already know. If you don't have a plausible answer, you'll keep thinking and exploring possibilities until you do find one. So if you plant a wrong, but plausible answer, then you make it a lot harder to find the true answer. If Loup didn't think the lake water was the important missing piece, he'd keep thinking further back, and he might start finding hints that he's given Annie something. Ysengrin would have memories of Annie having a binding, the summer she spent in the Forest. I do think the lake water is more than just misdirection, though. The best tacticians have moves with more than one purpose.
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Post by aline on Aug 29, 2018 7:24:10 GMT
To begin with, can the tooth be used to cleave two entities apart? Seeing how it cut a shadow from the surface it was on, I'm willing to bet yes. But I don't know if that's what Coyote would want Annie to do with the tooth. The important part for now, though, is that Coyote left Annie levers to negotiate with. Loup needs things Annie can give him. No matter how big he talks, he can't just do whatever he wants with her, especially not keep her. Because if Annie doesn't come back, the Court sure as hell isn't sending anybody else in that forest. Or if they do, it won't be to talk. That should give her enough room to go back to her friends and come up with a plan.
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Post by aline on Aug 24, 2018 11:35:48 GMT
Tragically, your experiences are not universal. A good thing for the rest of humanity, too. My point has nothing to do with my experiences, and every thing to do with social rules. If OP had written "someone walked up to me and threw eggs at me", with the tone implying that being treated like that is something one should expect to happen when going out in the street, I would also have said "well no, it's not bloody acceptable to throw eggs at people in the street and it's not something you should accept as a normal part of walking out your door. And unless that person has a very good excuse i.e. the behavior was not controllable, that person is a shitty person who had no right to do that to you." Also... mental health issues... Yes??? Lots of people have them??? Including me??? And??? A couple of mental health issues can excuse the behavior OP talked about because they affect people's ability to, well, interpret what is really going on around them, for a variety of reasons. In which case, the other party was still harmed, but it's an unfortunate accident rather than shitty behavior of an entitled or manipulative asshole. Somehow you're angry with me for thinking it's not normal to walk over other people's right to consent. I'm not sure why.
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Post by aline on Aug 22, 2018 19:37:19 GMT
That was my take, as well, more or less. Coyote being a God, not just a powerful being, must mean he is literally sustaining parts of the world, that he is a force that world depends on. What if Loup now is a powerful being, but no longer a God? That's an interesting take. And we know when Renard was given powers by Coyote, that power wasn't working as well. It's very possible that Loup now has a weaker, imperfect version of all of Coyote's powers, because something important was lost in the fusion with Ysengrin.
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Post by aline on Jul 31, 2018 20:04:17 GMT
We're going around the topic but I'd like to talk about it away from the page discussions, in general. Because I'm confused. What does Coyote want when he wants to die? What exactly is death in Gunnerkrigg?
We know the death of humans and animals leaves behind a "soul":
- the Guides lead the souls into the ether - or ghosts are left behind for a while, like Jeanne and Mort
This soul is apparently what feeds the ether.
Then we have what I'd call etheric death:
- The line of part fire elementals passing down the soul of the mother to the daughter - The hollow fairies who "die" as a rite of passage in order to be reborn as a human/fairy Court student - Forest creatures whose soul is taken out and passed into a human body, leaving their body to die
The first one sees the birth of a brand new person, while the last two are mostly the same people in a different body. Still the hollow fairies ask to be killed, so it's a form of death. But not one quite as dramatic, since they get to keep going with personality and memories intact.
Then we have the guys who don't die, let's call them the Gods: Coyote, Ysengrin, Renard, Jones...
So on one hand, we have a death of the body, that's easy. But it's not all of it. What about the soul? It goes on to something else (the ether mostly). We never see a soul just disappear. Is the "death of the soul" an alteration? If we think about Surma's death, she lost her soul to Annie, but Annie is not a copy of her mother. So Surma's soul is gone, because it mutated to form Annie's soul. If we think about what happens in the ether when a soul gets into it, it seems to be some sort of sea of energy, with each soul being an individual drop. Once the drop is in the sea, it can't be taken out of the sea anymore. The soul changes because it's absorbed and diluted into it...
What about Coyote? He doesn't really have a body to kill. He can't go into the ether because he already lives there. Whatever he's doing, he's not experiencing the same thing as a human (or a rabbit) dying. But he fused with Ysengrin to give birth to a third, new entity. Is that what he wanted to experience? To have his soul mutated into something entirely new and not-him? Is that in principle the same thing as joining all the other souls into the ether?
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Post by aline on Jul 20, 2018 18:13:26 GMT
Annie's mission is seeming far less hopeful now. She'd based it on the premise that this was still essentially Ysengrin, Ysengrin with his fatherly feelings for her underneath the snarling rage. But this new figure, who seems to be simply mad, may not have that facet she was counting on - or at most, it's buried beneath the madness, perhaps beyond her reach. Which raises the question: how to save the Court from him, in light of this major setback to Annie's plan (Though I suspect the discussion about the metaphysics of this metamorphosis into Loup could take up a few pages; it could be a while before Annie has the opportunity to try a "Plan B" - though she might have to concentrate on simply surviving.) Annie is still the person who befriended Ysengrin (the guy who hates humans and the Court) and had a good working relationship with Coyote. She has way less cards to play than she thought she did, that's true, but she's good at this stuff. She'll get to know Loup as well.
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Post by aline on Jul 18, 2018 7:41:59 GMT
Except if you think in terms of mythological figures, if you read the word as a name with a capital L, like Renart or Coyote, then Loup is the bad wolf from the old tales. The one who waits in the woods to eat little girls. The Big Bad Wolf. Yes, except the Loup-Garou IS that wolf. No. The Loup Garou is the werewolf. It's a human-wolf who transforms at the full moon, yada yada. Loup is 100 % a wolf 100 % of the time. Similar roots, but different stories.
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Post by aline on Jul 18, 2018 7:33:51 GMT
OK, now I'm officially scared. Loup as in Loup-Garou, The French Werewolf legend? No, loup just means "wolf" in French. Except if you think in terms of mythological figures, if you read the word as a name with a capital L, like Renart or Coyote, then Loup is the bad wolf from the old tales. The one who waits in the woods to eat little girls. The Big Bad Wolf.
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Post by aline on Jul 18, 2018 7:26:21 GMT
By The Way: Reality is subjective in the Gunnerverse but even In Real Life some people's reality is more subjective than others. For example... Ever been the last person to know you were dating someone? Spent some time hanging out with them, maybe had some good conversations and some fun platonic times, then they get the wrong idea and start telling people that the two of you are a couple? What?! No. I'm sorry, what? Either that person has some mental health issues, making them unable to work out the conventions of a romantic relationship, or even delusional Or that person was so sheltered that they have absolutely no concept of how romantic relationships work Or they are being manipulative on purpose Anyway this is completely bonkers, and I have a hard time believing it happens often. Even twelve years old wait at least after a kiss before they brag to their friends.
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Post by aline on Jul 16, 2018 7:51:22 GMT
Maybe this is the result of a warped love for Antimony from Ysengrin? Either way, get your pepper spray, Annie. Mmph, if anything that sounds more like Coyote. The guy put his nose under Annie's skirt when she was... what? Eleven? And this "Antimony, my love" looks more like a way to unsettle her than a genuine expression of sentiment.
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Post by aline on Jul 16, 2018 7:39:16 GMT
Looks like the reality of the possibility of something bad happening to her has set in. Well, she thought she was meeting with her friend Ysengrin. He may have been a crazy god, but at least he was a known quantity. She knew what to expect from Ysengrin, the good and the bad. Coyote was also a crazy god, but he'd promised her protection. Whatever else he might plot, she knew he wouldn't hurt her. Now she's got to deal with some new merged creature who is also a crazy god, but not one she knows how to deal with, and all her protectors are gone. That was *so* not the plan.
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Post by aline on Jun 20, 2018 14:05:55 GMT
I for one am surprised that Eglamore gave up so quickly/easily on a chance to fight with Tony. It must also be noted that Tony is wearing a shirt whose lapels are conducive to hoisting one into the air, and yet Eglamore has passed up this opportunity. Truly, is this even the same guy? (He probably avoided it because there were kids present and Annie proved she was going to the woods of her own free will. But still.) I think he gave up because his fight with Tony was about to become a fight with Annie (she made her intentions clear). James wants to direct his anger at Tony, the guy he never liked. But he can't do that now without also attacking Annie's decision. We saw him caught in a similar situation with Surma in the last flashback. Fighting with Tony is satisfying in a way. Fighting with Annie (or Surma) is just painful.
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Post by aline on Jun 19, 2018 5:54:36 GMT
She can instantly teleport Annie back to the Court, an ability Eglamore doesn't have. How did I forget that? I apologize to Parley. But now I'm annoyed that Eglamore isn't letting Parley go along! Her presence is vital. Perhaps Annie should consider bringing along Andrew instead, for good luck. She definitely needs somebody with supernatural abilities along for the ride, because fire alone isn't going to save her if Coysengrin decides he doesn't want to listen. Jones is good, but Jones + others is better. Yeah, I'm annoyed at him too. It would be much safer for Annie with the Parley-instant-exit-route. I'm not sure if Eglamore is refusing his permission in the hope that it would change everybody's mind about letting Annie going, or if he really needs her here in the Court. It is true that Eglamore and Parley have a job to do, and with Forest creatures lose somewhere in the rubble, they have a lot of people to protect, not just Annie. But the way he said it, it felt like he was just trying to pressure Tony to keep Annie home. The thing is, right now, I don't think Tony could keep Annie home even if he wanted to.
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Post by aline on Jun 18, 2018 13:48:38 GMT
Parley is a mere apprentice, not as strong or as experienced as Eglamore yet, so what more could she do to fend off Coysengrin that Eglamore couldn't? No point in her coming along. She can instantly teleport Annie back to the Court, an ability Eglamore doesn't have. Combined with Jones, who is indestructible and can protect them while they leave, I'd say that's a foolproof escape plan. This isn't about fighting, it's about going home safely. Who is quicker at leaving is therefore more relevant than who's stronger, or better with a sword. Same reason why Eglamore didn't try fighting Ysengrin last time. Tom explicitely said it wasn't because he couldn't, but because his priority was to get Annie back.
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Post by aline on Jun 18, 2018 11:48:24 GMT
Also, I don't even think Annie needs Parley if Jones is going to be around. Although we do not know if Jones' indestructibility holds up with gods. Sure, you've done your research, but you're sending Annie in with basically no preparation, no meaningful protection and no failsafe measures against two literal gods. For god's sake, Renard isn't even going with her. Were you kidnapped by aliens over the weekend? oO I think the one who will keep Annie safe is Annie. Not because she is capable of fighting gods, but because she knows Ysengrin, she has formed a sincere bond with him, and she knows how to talk to him. She also knows that he's unstable from previous experience so she doesn't just assume everything will be fine, but she thinks she can deal with that and I agree.
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Post by aline on Jun 18, 2018 9:36:39 GMT
All joking aside, shouldn't Annie first help repatriate the forest creatures stuck inside the bubble? I think that's one of the things Annie intends to negotiate with Ysengrin. After all, he sent them there. So do I! I hope Eglamore is going to back off now. He has zero right to tell Annie "no" at this point, whether or not he likes it.
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Post by aline on Jun 15, 2018 8:20:23 GMT
Man, Tony's logic seems so inorganic, yet perfectly in character. That blunt delivery, the retrospective defensiveness and subsequent change in attitude, conveniently bringing it up now of all times to settle an argument rather than to reconnect with his daughter... It would be completely unrealistic, after all this, if Tony suddenly started a heartfelt speech to Annie about his love and appreciation. We all want it, because frankly she deserves it, but... well... if Tony could do this, the previous ten chapters would make no sense. He'll have to get there little by little. He's making some progress at least. He's no longer pretending he doesn't have a daughter, he wants here to live with him, he wants to try. He'll get there.
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Post by aline on Jun 13, 2018 7:19:49 GMT
Well I'd like to say I called Eggers being upset with this idea, but he doesn't seem as concerned with Annie's safety as he does with calling out Anthony. Hmm. Not sure that's the best motivation, given the circumstances. Yep. Although considering what James thinks he knows about Anthony (shady guy / deeper than most in the Court etc.), it is correct from his perspective to question Anthony's motives. Still, his perspective is deeply skewed. It would be nice if he could manage to update his assessment of Carver senior sometime in the future.
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Post by aline on Jun 8, 2018 14:02:42 GMT
Oh and also by the way I think this is a suicide mission, I can't believe the adults are agreeing to it, I can't BELIEVE Tony and Jones' reaction to all this is just "Sure, fine," and I also can't believe everyone is just taking Annie's word that she can communicate with Ysengrin. This is all SO silly. I guess Eglamore is the only one who knows what happened the last time Annie was confident she could communicate (Annie: "Please calm down!" Ysengrin: "RAAAAAAAAAAA!"), but that's still no excuse for this nonsense. Tony has gone from "I'll keep Annie from the forest because she's not safe there because the gods get so angry" to "Well, a furiously angry god just attacked the court, I'll immediately let my daughter go try to calm him down." Tony sucks. They shouldn't be allowing Annie to do this, but I guess the plot has to chug along somehow. It's not silly. It's risky, but not silly. They trust Annie's word because she has built a solid relationship with Ysengrin and many other Forest creatures, because she has years of experience dealing with them now, including when they're at their worst. With both Parley and Jones around, Annie has a good exit plan in case Ysengrin has a fit of rage. Frankly I love this development. Everything Annie has done and learned until now is leading up to this. I sure don't want her to stay at home with some cocoa while it becomes "Gunnerkrigg Court: a story about adults dealing with everything while the kids go to math classes and play cards".
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Post by aline on Jun 8, 2018 11:34:25 GMT
I wonder if he's going to give her back her makeup. This seems to be foreshadowed by the "moment to get ready" in her room thing; if the comic just meant "let me get the knife", Annie might well have just said that. It's not as though Annie habitually has to perform a ritual or anything before she can use her power. No, seriously. We've had endless theoretical speculation about whether the makeup actually represents some sort of real metaphysical power over and above simple feminine adornment, especially focusing on the tradition of eyeblack as metaphysical protection. In a way, Anthony taking Annie's makeup was like Delilah cutting Samson's hair. He made her powerless. Even if this is not a factor, I still suspect Annie's maturity may have convinced him she's a completely different personality, and he may have come to realise he's being an arsewomble about the whole thing. Oh, he's known all along he was an arsewomble about the whole thing. He just hasn't done anything about it. I don't think it's the makeup though. The makeup is an ambiguous symbol. It's "Annie's thing" as Kat put it, but it's also a mask. She didn't wear it when she was alone at the Court during her first summer vacation, or when she was in the Forest during her second one. And I don't think she's been powerless for a while. She regained her focus, her confidence and her fire already. I agree with you he is probably looking at his daughter very differently by now. I'm hoping for words of ackowledgement. Maybe even - gasp - affection.
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Post by aline on Jun 8, 2018 8:18:25 GMT
Yes. So? How does it change anything I said? "They think freeing Jeanne played a role," is definitive. Jones herself does not sound at all sure of what happened via her dialogue. ... and I never said she was sure, I just reworded the hypothesis she made in comic. If she thought "There is no relationship between those two events" was the most likely hypothesis, she would have said so. She believes "Those two events are related" is the most likely hypothesis at that point. Obviously she is not sure, how could she possibly be? Based on the information she has (a lot less than we, the readers, have), all she can do is guess. I still don't know where you're going with this?
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Post by aline on Jun 6, 2018 12:33:15 GMT
They think freeing Jeanne played a role, but was not the sole cause of this chain of events. They also think they have more important things to do than ground her right now. A correct assessment, I'd say. The exact thing that Jones says is: "That seems to imply the two events might be related, but not a direct cause." Emphasis mine. I don't want to be nitpicky, but that's pretty indefinitive. Yes. So? How does it change anything I said? Of course she is not sure, she doesn't have all information yet. She is making a likely hypothesis, which she will check in due time, once she has gathered more facts.
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Post by aline on Jun 6, 2018 7:41:01 GMT
Between their reactions on this page and how Jones reacted when the subject of Jeanne was first brought up by Annie the first time I get the distinct impression that no matter the justification, Jones wants to keep Jeanne as hidden information. My feeling exactly. And Tony doesn't seem to see this as a reason to talk to the court officials either. a significant number of people try their best to fly under the court radar.
I'd try to fly under the radar too, tbh. The Court is extremely nosy and controlling. Dystopian levels of nosy and controlling, in fact. Being paranoid about Gillitie Woods is understandable I guess. But the way they treat their own people? Tracking the position of students? Surveillance on their employees including in their private homes? Telling Anja her etheric computer wasn't interesting, then using her technology without her knowledge? Blackmailing a guy to go back to work for them by threatening his daughter, after obviously tracking him for years?
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Post by aline on Jun 6, 2018 7:29:53 GMT
Well, they don't seem to think this was Annie's fault. They think freeing Jeanne played a role, but was not the sole cause of this chain of events. They also think they have more important things to do than ground her right now. A correct assessment, I'd say. I'm very confused at everybody's insistent arguing about whether it is "Annie's fault" or "not Annie's fault" as if this was about finding a guilty party and exercising punishment. I just... why is it so important to you guys? Isn't it a lot more interesting to wonder about other things? What is going to happen in Annie's meeting with Ysengrin? Will their friendship survive tthis conflict? How will the Court react when / if they find out Annie went to the Forest? What exactly is Coyote's ultimate goal with these shenanigans? I mean, aside from the obvious entertainment value? Will Anthony finally be able to connect with his daughter, now that he has the chance to trust and help her? Will Kat free the robots from being treated like house appliances rather than the sentient beings with feelings that they are? All of those questions are more fun than the entire "Annie's fault / not Annie's fault" conversation.
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Post by aline on Jun 4, 2018 9:02:37 GMT
No nothing is 100% her fault but the reason she feels more responsible for Jeanne's absence than her friends is because she is because like this is how causality and social responsibility work. That, and also, responsibility is individual. You own things you do. The fact that somebody else also did the thing doesn't change the fact that you did the thing. So you own the thing you did, period. Annie freed Jeanne because she wanted to. The others can own their part in it (and they are), but that's for them to decide. Annie's job is to own Annie's actions. It would be completely inappropriate to start saying "Oh but it wasn't just me, they were here too so don't forget to blame them!". Seriously. I mean we could discuss all day which exact share of responsibility goes to whom, but that's only relevant when you start deciding who is going to get how more detentions (or lose their job, or whatever). Which is not the point here.
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Post by aline on Jun 4, 2018 8:50:32 GMT
I like to imagine Kat, Red, and Ayilu also appear and go "I, too, helped free her". gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1805Honestly sometimes I feel like I am the only one who reads the comic. Well yeah, I don't expect to see Red and Ayilu. On top of the "never talk to us again", neither had any emotional investment in freeing Jeanne, and they probably weren't even told everything about her. I'd rather expect them to tattle to the Court authorities, if they can grasp the consequences of what happened.
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Post by aline on Jun 1, 2018 11:49:02 GMT
Unless she gave birth to Coyote I don't think Antimony can claim credit for ALL of what happened. Annie is explaining that she gave Coyote and Ysengrin the opportunity for mischief, which is true. The fact that Coyote and Ysengrin are the primary culprits is obvious enough to all people involved. If Annie pointed it out, she would sound extremely defensive. She made a breach in the Court's defenses. She obviously didn't think it would matter, but it did, now she needs to solve that issue with the help of the others. Annie is not telling this so that she will be blamed and punished. She's also not running away, hiding, or doing something reckless on her own. Instead she's gathering help and looking for solutions. The people around her need to understand why the Annan Waters were once a barrier and why they can now be crossed, it's critical information. Annie is doing what she does best: making people work together who would not otherwise find each other, and leading them towards a solution they wouldn't have imagined on their own. Telling the circumstances of what happened and her role in it is just a part of finding that solution. This is called taking responsibility, the opposite of self-flagellation, and it's a proof that Annie has grown as a person. I think Annie's qualities will truly shine in this crisis with the Forest and I'm very much looking forward to it.
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Post by aline on May 28, 2018 18:53:58 GMT
I hope he will at least apologize to her directly for being a jerk and an absentee father before the comic is over. He probably feels unforgivable but knowing Annie she might forgive him if he gave her a chance, and then maybe he wouldn't be such a shut-in around her. Beyond an apology, he needs to really see her, as a person, not just "smallish copy of dead Surma". Only then can there be any sort of emotional sincerity between him and Annie. I think that he trusts her to do her job in the Forest is a good sign that he's making some progress, but there's still a long way to go. This could be the big crisis that forces him to work with his daughter and actually find out who she is.
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Post by aline on May 28, 2018 17:52:06 GMT
Awkward conversation with Eggers coming right up. Let's hope Jones is also around. Edit: Nah, watching insects is one thing, but when he messed with the supernatural in the wilderness last time he came off pretty badly. He'll go to the professionals for this one, it's his daughter's safety on the line after all. There are a number of individuals who would be good backups. A lot depends on who the Court will spare or who will walk off the job to join Annie. Jones makes up her own mind on these things, who is going to stop her. I think Eglamore is the better choice. He is trained for the job. Jones is very strong indeed, and nobody could stop her from going wherever it is she wants to go, but she's not very good at protecting people who aren't her. Mort is evidence of that.
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