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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 4, 2018 7:04:02 GMT
Some context for the current crisis. [edit] Also, note the nod to ol' lemon-head Antimony in the flashback of the first panel. [/edit] |
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Post by Angry Individual on Jun 4, 2018 7:12:45 GMT
I like to imagine Kat, Red, and Ayilu also appear and go "I, too, helped free her".
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Post by noone3 on Jun 4, 2018 7:33:06 GMT
I like to imagine Kat, Red, and Ayilu also appear and go "I, too, helped free her". The classic "I am Spartacus" moment.  |
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Post by red4bestgirl on Jun 4, 2018 7:49:54 GMT
There were a couple of points I keep seeing pop up that are bad but I haven't had the time/wherewithall to respond to specifically before right now, so I will respond to them in this thread since it's the newest one, and summarize so no one has their feelings hurt as much by being directly in the quote where I go "this argument is really bad and dumb." Dumb argument 1: "We don't know that Jeanne's ghost was protecting the Court from Coyote and/or that Ysengrin couldn't have just crossed even with her there." Rebuttal: What, like yes we do, do you now know how context and implication work. Coyote explicitly talks about Jeanne's ghost limiting Ysengrin here and in the next page. This is then directly called back a whole of twelve pages later, after Ysengrin has finished eating Coyote, here and most explicitly the first panel here. And these are all recent comics, not very long removed. Like this is basic Kuleshov stuff. Ysengrin devours Coyote, gains his strength and knowledge and whatever else. Flood of memories. First the emotional stuff about Coyote being a dick to him, and then: "What would you do with my strength?" "I would show the humans how weak they truly are." Immediate shot of Coyote walking across the waters, a shot that was accompanied all of thirteen pages ago with the line, "Ah, Ysengrin. What would you do if you knew the Ghost of the Annan Waters was gone?" The implication that Ysen is only able to break through so easily because of Jeanne's absence is overwhelming, and indeed, this would be unfathomably bad and misdirecting comic-writing if that wasn't the case. Like we don't fully know or understand the mechanisms of who Jeanne kept out how but we don't need to. It's complex techno magic. The point is that it is quite obvious that she did keep out powerful magical beings and would have been an impediment even to Ysenyote. Dumb argument 2: "Annie is acting like she's the only one who made the decision! But the others helped her too!" Rebuttal: I expect this to be especially strong itt because the friend characters here are seeming to support it but like I don't know if you guys have ever been in the real world, but how it works is that the person who initiates and takes the responsibility of leading and organizing an action is awarded a greater share of the responsibility than the people who just go along with it because they like and trust (or fear) that person. This applies both to praise if the thing is great and works, and blame if the thing fails or is horrible. The entire thing was Annie's idea and her plan. Yes, her friends went along with it, because they like and trust her. Well, except for Ayilu and Red, who came along because she bribed Ayilu with a name she wasn't supposed to have yet, and Red because she tagged along to bug Ayilu. No nothing is 100% her fault but the reason she feels more responsible for Jeanne's absence than her friends is because she is because like this is how causality and social responsibility work. |
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Post by red4bestgirl on Jun 4, 2018 7:54:34 GMT
I like to imagine Kat, Red, and Ayilu also appear and go "I, too, helped free her". Honestly sometimes I feel like I am the only one who reads the comic. |
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Post by aline on Jun 4, 2018 8:50:32 GMT
I like to imagine Kat, Red, and Ayilu also appear and go "I, too, helped free her". Honestly sometimes I feel like I am the only one who reads the comic. Well yeah, I don't expect to see Red and Ayilu. On top of the "never talk to us again", neither had any emotional investment in freeing Jeanne, and they probably weren't even told everything about her. I'd rather expect them to tattle to the Court authorities, if they can grasp the consequences of what happened. |
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Post by aline on Jun 4, 2018 9:02:37 GMT
No nothing is 100% her fault but the reason she feels more responsible for Jeanne's absence than her friends is because she is because like this is how causality and social responsibility work. That, and also, responsibility is individual. You own things you do. The fact that somebody else also did the thing doesn't change the fact that you did the thing. So you own the thing you did, period. Annie freed Jeanne because she wanted to. The others can own their part in it (and they are), but that's for them to decide. Annie's job is to own Annie's actions. It would be completely inappropriate to start saying "Oh but it wasn't just me, they were here too so don't forget to blame them!". Seriously. I mean we could discuss all day which exact share of responsibility goes to whom, but that's only relevant when you start deciding who is going to get how more detentions (or lose their job, or whatever). Which is not the point here. |
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fjodorii
Full Member
It just does, ok?
Posts: 134
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Post by fjodorii on Jun 4, 2018 9:43:47 GMT
I like to imagine Kat, Red, and Ayilu also appear and go "I, too, helped free her". Honestly sometimes I feel like I am the only one who reads the comic. You might have missed the first four words from AI's comment. Otherwise I really don't understand yours. |
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Post by faiiry on Jun 4, 2018 10:28:15 GMT
Next page: either a big "We knew all along, dear" or a big "WHAT?" from Tony and Jones. Or whatever Jones' equivalent of a big "WHAT" is.
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Post by faiiry on Jun 4, 2018 10:37:13 GMT
I like to imagine Kat, Red, and Ayilu also appear and go "I, too, helped free her". Honestly sometimes I feel like I am the only one who reads the comic. It was a joke, my exceptionally-confrontational friend. |
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Post by foresterr on Jun 4, 2018 12:12:37 GMT
343890982 days of detention for you.
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Post by netherdan on Jun 4, 2018 12:45:54 GMT
Well yeah, I don't expect to see Red and Ayilu. On top of the "never talk to us again", neither had any emotional investment in freeing Jeanne, and they probably weren't even told everything about her. I'd rather expect them to tattle to the Court authorities, if they can grasp the consequences of what happened. She could still pop up and say "yeah she bribed Ayilu into it too and I tagged along cuz I was sick worried this dumbnut could die" |
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Post by todd on Jun 4, 2018 13:03:04 GMT
I still think that the "could Jeanne have kept Ysengrin out?" question is irrelevant. The relevant part is that the "Jeanne-powered defense" was carried out through murder, torture, and corrupting a person into a spirit of pure hatred and violence - not to mention the motives were impure (Diego's desire for revenge). Even if it could have defended the Court from all harm, it was still immoral. A crime that succeeds in accomplishing its goals is still a crime.
(That is still what's been unsettling me in this turn of events. I know that Tom's most likely goal is to point out Annie's tendencies to do things on her own without seeking help and advice from the grown-ups, with unfortunate consequences - but I fear that here, he's - without intending to - offering a second message of "It's all right to kill two people in a cowardly manner and trap their ghosts into protecting you for eternity, warped into utter malice, and they should be kept that way". I don't think that's the message Tom wants to send, but the consequences he's depicting here of both the Founders' crime - generations of the Court being kept safe from the Forest - and its undoing - Ysengrin making a savage attack upon the Court - are disturbing, to say the least.)
But I do think that Jones and Antony will have to tread carefully now (as will anyone else among the Court staff who learns of this), to avoid suggesting that they approve of what the Court had done to Jeanne and were in favor of her continuing torment. (And Tom will have to walk the same balance. I hope he succeeds in the pages to come.)
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Post by Corvo on Jun 4, 2018 13:16:06 GMT
343890982 days of detention for you. gryffindor queslett! |
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Post by rafk on Jun 4, 2018 13:21:41 GMT
This was a missed opportunity. Annie's explanation could have started with:
"Near a tree by a river there's a hole in the ground, where an old man of Aran goes around and around..."
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Post by rafk on Jun 4, 2018 13:26:00 GMT
I still think that the "could Jeanne have kept Ysengrin out?" question is irrelevant. The relevant part is that the "Jeanne-powered defense" was carried out through murder, torture, and corrupting a person into a spirit of pure hatred and violence - not to mention the motives were impure (Diego's desire for revenge). Even if it could have defended the Court from all harm, it was still immoral. A crime that succeeds in accomplishing its goals is still a crime. (That is still what's been unsettling me in this turn of events. I know that Tom's most likely goal is to point out Annie's tendencies to do things on her own without seeking help and advice from the grown-ups, with unfortunate consequences - but I fear that here, he's - without intending to - offering a second message of "It's all right to kill two people in a cowardly manner and trap their ghosts into protecting you for eternity, warped into utter malice, and they should be kept that way". I don't think that's the message Tom wants to send, but the consequences he's depicting here of both the Founders' crime - generations of the Court being kept safe from the Forest - and its undoing - Ysengrin making a savage attack upon the Court - are disturbing, to say the least.) But I do think that Jones and Antony will have to tread carefully now (as will anyone else among the Court staff who learns of this), to avoid suggesting that they approve of what the Court had done to Jeanne and were in favor of her continuing torment. (And Tom will have to walk the same balance. I hope he succeeds in the pages to come.) I don't for a moment think Tom intends to present the Court's treatment of Jeanne as justfied. We were told the story of Diego and Jeanne in a way that made clear Diego's plan was designed out of spite and not necessity. Annie did need a telling off about her reckless lack of planning when putting her friends in danger, but this is about Annie realising it is not her fault when bad people do bad things in response to her doing the right thing. |
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Post by ctso74 on Jun 4, 2018 13:33:09 GMT
The next page will be the Headmaster lowering Annie into the ravine.
Annie: "...Uhmmmmmm..."
Honestly though, I'm glad Annie allowed your compatriots to out themselves.
I've always wondered, if the Court establishment would hand-wave the "Jeanne defense" away, as something "barbaric" and muddled in uncontrolled Ether nonsense, when compared to their Etheric science. I guess we're about to find out from Tony's and Jones' response. Sadly, they may say, the Court will disavow it for its unscientific style of magic, rather than the moral issues.
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Post by todd on Jun 4, 2018 13:48:10 GMT
I don't for a moment think Tom intends to present the Court's treatment of Jeanne as justfied. We were told the story of Diego and Jeanne in a way that made clear Diego's plan was designed out of spite and not necessity. I recognize that, but still, the consequences of Diego's plan do risk (to me) giving a tone of "Well, yes, what he and his fellow-conspirators did was wrong, but it kept the Court safe, and once Jeanne was freed, Ysengrin attacked and caused a lot of damage, so maybe it was kind of all right after all...." Again, I don't think that's what Tom intended, but some of the responses I've seen to the recent events seem to suggest something like that forming. |
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Post by todd on Jun 4, 2018 13:52:25 GMT
I've always wondered, if the Court establishment would hand-wave the "Jeanne defense" away, as something "barbaric" and muddled in uncontrolled Ether nonsense, when compared to their Etheric science. I guess we're about to find out from Tony's and Jones' response. Sadly, they may say, the Court will disavow it for its unscientific style of magic, rather than the moral issues. Yes, that's something I've also thought of - for all the Court's supposed role as a bastion of science and reason, the methods it chose for its defense seem far closer to black magic than to science. (Granted, magic and science were less clearly separated a few centuries ago - even Sir Isaac Newton dabbled a lot in alchemy - but still, it does seem as if the Court's way to keep out the forest was, ironically, adopting a means closer to the way of thinking that the forest symbolized, at least in the Founders' eyes.) |
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Demonsul
New Member
Seven years a new member
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Post by Demonsul on Jun 4, 2018 14:35:43 GMT
I don't for a moment think Tom intends to present the Court's treatment of Jeanne as justfied. We were told the story of Diego and Jeanne in a way that made clear Diego's plan was designed out of spite and not necessity. I recognize that, but still, the consequences of Diego's plan do risk (to me) giving a tone of "Well, yes, what he and his fellow-conspirators did was wrong, but it kept the Court safe, and once Jeanne was freed, Ysengrin attacked and caused a lot of damage, so maybe it was kind of all right after all...." Again, I don't think that's what Tom intended, but some of the responses I've seen to the recent events seem to suggest something like that forming. Sometimes doing the right thing can have consequences too, but it doesn't mean it's wrong to do it - plus there may have been better ways to avoid harm in freeing Jeanne, such as getting the court to prepare additional defenses or at least making the sympathetic court figures aware that something big was about to change.
Anyway, even without that, bad things can happen without it always being a moral, and not everything has to be read as a lesson to the reader. |
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Post by madjack on Jun 4, 2018 16:57:27 GMT
Honestly though, I'm glad Annie allowed your compatriots to out themselves. And yet there's no mention of Kat so far. It's a given Annie would try to protect her but... She's basically been outed (heh) by default because of how close the two of them are. I don't think its a coincidence that Tom dropped the chapter retrospective for Thread today either, those usually go in when there's something to compare, and some of his comments about what it would take to drive a wedge between Annie and Kat got me thinking about whether this might do it... and it's possible it might. The explicit callbacks to Alistair in the video make me wonder if Kat won't react the same way again to being effectively dobbed in, she's not really someone who's ever gotten into trouble and doesn't like getting herself embarrassed(?) or being lowered in the eyes of others, even by association. Add to that her pulling Annie away from Juliette when discussing Jeanne, Kat clearly isn't comfortable with getting called onto the carpet over this and might consider Annie's confession without her consent/knowledge(?) a betrayal of trust. If it does cause a breach, Paz' jealousy and possessiveness might drive the wedge in further if she holds any potential punishment against Annie. Which might come back to haunt her later if the friendship rekindles. It's also still possible that Annie will be called away into the Forest for another extended stay followed by a timeskip or something, so they'd be separated regardless, but I'm starting to think that's less likely. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 4, 2018 17:11:05 GMT
I don't for a moment think Tom intends to present the Court's treatment of Jeanne as justfied. We were told the story of Diego and Jeanne in a way that made clear Diego's plan was designed out of spite and not necessity. The Court's treatment of Jeanne and Mr. Green is difficult to justify but can be rationalized. We have discussed this issue at length on this forum but since then we did see Ysengrin probing the defenses of the Annan along with a peek into Ys' mind that showed his hatred of the Court. Even in semi-omniscient hindsight there was a real danger. It is very possible that Diego presented the Court with a false dilemma; he did say that " It must be Jeanne. The plan will work with no one else. It must be her." If there was a competing plan to fortify the Annan Diego almost certainly would have argued against it on a practical level and Diego was an authority on both technology and magic. With the choices artificially narrowed to sacrificing one soldier who was planning on deserting (and one green dude) and by doing so securing their position or doing nothing I am not surprised they chose to buy what Diego was selling them. My objection is that what they did goes beyond cruel and unusual punishment. There should have been someone else they should have listened to... But then again Diego's plan needed secrecy for at least three reasons. If Jeanne got wind of what was actually being planned she wouldn't have gone along with it. If many people knew what was done to defend the Court it may have leaked to the Wood and with that knowledge her ghost would have been less effective as a barrier, since she couldn't or wouldn't block things flying past a particular altitude, and they may have been able to come up with a countermeasure. Even well after the fact people may have felt sorry for Jeanne and tried to set her free, thus undoing the defenses, and that was exactly what eventually happened. Annie did need a telling off about her reckless lack of planning when putting her friends in danger, but this is about Annie realizing it is not her fault when bad people do bad things in response to her doing the right thing. It's true that Coyote and Ys were planning bad things with or without Antimony but I am not ready to absolve Antimony of all wrongdoing here. ...for all the Court's supposed role as a bastion of science and reason, the methods it chose for its defense seem far closer to black magic than to science. (Granted, magic and science were less clearly separated a few centuries ago - even Sir Isaac Newton dabbled a lot in alchemy - but still, it does seem as if the Court's way to keep out the forest was, ironically, adopting a means closer to the way of thinking that the forest symbolized, at least in the Founders' eyes.) Ys was surprised too. Even though the Annan was now undefended, even though his fist was augmented with Coyote's power the Court popped up a magic shield that deflected it and he was confronted by the fact that it wasn't just Antimony and Donnie. Men are not as weak as he supposed. There is courage still, strength enough perhaps to challenge him. But black magic is the time-honored choice of the desperate and those seeking revenge. |
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Post by warrl on Jun 4, 2018 17:22:06 GMT
There were a couple of points I keep seeing pop up that are bad but I haven't had the time/wherewithall to respond to specifically before right now, so I will respond to them in this thread since it's the newest one, and summarize so no one has their feelings hurt as much by being directly in the quote where I go "this argument is really bad and dumb." Dumb argument 1: "We don't know that Jeanne's ghost was protecting the Court from Coyote and/or that Ysengrin couldn't have just crossed even with her there." Rebuttal: What, like yes we do, do you now know how context and implication work. Coyote explicitly talks about Jeanne's ghost limiting Ysengrin here and in the next page. This is then directly called back a whole of twelve pages later, after Ysengrin has finished eating Coyote, here and most explicitly the first panel here. And these are all recent comics, not very long removed. Like this is basic Kuleshov stuff. Ysengrin devours Coyote, gains his strength and knowledge and whatever else. Flood of memories. First the emotional stuff about Coyote being a dick to him, and then: "What would you do with my strength?" "I would show the humans how weak they truly are." Immediate shot of Coyote walking across the waters, a shot that was accompanied all of thirteen pages ago with the line, "Ah, Ysengrin. What would you do if you knew the Ghost of the Annan Waters was gone?" The implication that Ysen is only able to break through so easily because of Jeanne's absence is overwhelming, and indeed, this would be unfathomably bad and misdirecting comic-writing if that wasn't the case. Yeah, this makes a lot of sense. A robot can walk across the bridge - but Ysengrin can't (unless Coyote's with him). Shadow-creatures hiding in the robot can cross the bridge with hostile intent - but Ysengrin can't. Annie in an emotional breakdown, crying so hard she can barely see, can run across the bridge - but Ysengrim can't. Some sapient former-human birds can fly across the chasm - but Ysengrin can't walk across the bridge. Kat with her anti-gravity device can fly across the chasm - but Ysengrin can't walk across the bridge. An ordinary bird can fly over the chasm - but Ysengrin can't walk across the bridge. Those tree-wolves laden with shadow creatures in the flashback chapter could get across the chasm somehow, probably using the bridge - but Ysengrin can't. Because Jeanne, who has been shown to murder pretty much anything including psychopomps and robotic devices that go over the water IN the chasm, has a thing for Ysengrin in particular and won't let him - but only him - go over the water ABOVE the chasm. Sorry, I have a problem with this supposition. It would make more sense to say that the Court has other defenses against hostile incursions across the bridge, so Ysengrin crossing the bridge to attack would have been a really bad idea (or, at best, ineffectual) from HIS point of view. |
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Post by bedinsis on Jun 4, 2018 18:17:06 GMT
I don't know if this is the right place to bring it up, but I just noticed that we're fast approaching page #2000. I wonder if there will be anything special for that page. In particular since page #1000 actually had a rather significant event. The way the story is progressing means it's probably to early to tell, I just thought I should bring it up. |
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Post by netherdan on Jun 4, 2018 20:41:05 GMT
There were a couple of points I keep seeing pop up that are bad but I haven't had the time/wherewithall to respond to specifically before right now, so I will respond to them in this thread since it's the newest one, and summarize so no one has their feelings hurt as much by being directly in the quote where I go "this argument is really bad and dumb." Dumb argument 1: "We don't know that Jeanne's ghost was protecting the Court from Coyote and/or that Ysengrin couldn't have just crossed even with her there." Rebuttal: What, like yes we do, do you now know how context and implication work. Coyote explicitly talks about Jeanne's ghost limiting Ysengrin here and in the next page. This is then directly called back a whole of twelve pages later, after Ysengrin has finished eating Coyote, here and most explicitly the first panel here. And these are all recent comics, not very long removed. Like this is basic Kuleshov stuff. Ysengrin devours Coyote, gains his strength and knowledge and whatever else. Flood of memories. First the emotional stuff about Coyote being a dick to him, and then: "What would you do with my strength?" "I would show the humans how weak they truly are." Immediate shot of Coyote walking across the waters, a shot that was accompanied all of thirteen pages ago with the line, "Ah, Ysengrin. What would you do if you knew the Ghost of the Annan Waters was gone?" The implication that Ysen is only able to break through so easily because of Jeanne's absence is overwhelming, and indeed, this would be unfathomably bad and misdirecting comic-writing if that wasn't the case. Yeah, this makes a lot of sense. A robot can walk across the bridge - but Ysengrin can't (unless Coyote's with him). Shadow-creatures hiding in the robot can cross the bridge with hostile intent - but Ysengrin can't. Annie in an emotional breakdown, crying so hard she can barely see, can run across the bridge - but Ysengrim can't. Some sapient former-human birds can fly across the chasm - but Ysengrin can't walk across the bridge. Kat with her anti-gravity device can fly across the chasm - but Ysengrin can't walk across the bridge. An ordinary bird can fly over the chasm - but Ysengrin can't walk across the bridge. Those tree-wolves laden with shadow creatures in the flashback chapter could get across the chasm somehow, probably using the bridge - but Ysengrin can't. Because Jeanne, who has been shown to murder pretty much anything including psychopomps and robotic devices that go over the water IN the chasm, has a thing for Ysengrin in particular and won't let him - but only him - go over the water ABOVE the chasm. Sorry, I have a problem with this supposition. It would make more sense to say that the Court has other defenses against hostile incursions across the bridge, so Ysengrin crossing the bridge to attack would have been a really bad idea (or, at best, ineffectual) from HIS point of view. I think it all breaks down to: Ysengrim wouldn't openly disobey Coyote, and crossing a heavily lit bridge couldn't be explained other than "Coyote knew it and he did nothing". So he tried to smuggle creatures in attacks that looked like uncoordinated wild forest denizens, like robot's shadow, as well as testing the Annan waters directly and by spreading rumors of the ghost Now, a little Q&A: 1) Was trapping Jeanne a bad thing? A: Yes 2) Was releasing her a good thing? A: Yes 3) Could she stop a flying Coywolf god? A: No 4) Could she stop most of previous Ysengrin's attempts? A: Yes 5) Was releasing her the final trigger to twist Y's mind into performing the attack? A: Yes 6) Would he still decide to swallow Coyote and attack if he didn't realize she was gone? A: Maybe 7) Would Coyote take "maybe" as an answer after all that careful planning? A: you guess 8) Could Coyote find another way to make sure he would attack and would not freak out the way he did after attacking Annie? Consider that Coyote would still be "dead" and could not remove that memory to try again A: Maybe (see #7) 9-Bonus) Are we sure this is the first time Coyote tried it? He could have done this a few times and removed everyone's memories when it failed (even the readers memories, you know those weird hiatus with guest comics, city-face and whatnot could be originally Coyote's attempts) |
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Post by warrl on Jun 4, 2018 21:08:02 GMT
Now, a little Q&A: 5) Was releasing her the final trigger to twist Y's mind into performing the attack? A: Yes No. Ysengrin would have attacked whenever he thought the chance of success - however he defined it at the time - outweighed the likely cost of failure. When he sent that creature to attack, and Jeanne cut it down, he was collecting important information at the cost of one creature. He may have considered this a success; clearly it was, at worst, an acceptable loss. Obviously his mind was "twisted" into performing such attacks a long time ago. Yes. He was already aware that numerous creatures, including himself, had crossed on the bridge or at higher altitude - some of them routinely (the chasm is not so wide that birds would be hesitant to fly across). He would not see Jeanne as an obstacle to doing exactly what he and others (the tree-creatures) had done without any attempt on her part to interfere. |
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Post by todd on Jun 5, 2018 0:17:10 GMT
One thought about the "ends justify the means/great necessity/needs of the many outweigh the few" argument the Founders used to support what they did to Jeanne. That argument could also be used by Ysengrin to justify his attack upon the Court.
The Court's experiments could easily endanger the inhabitants of Gilltie Wood, all of whom are etheric, in one way or another. (Even if the Court doesn't intend that - and I suspect that it hasn't sunk *that* low - the past spillovers from events like the out-of-control spread of the Bismuth Seed wouldn't bode well for its ability to handle its discoveries well; it could wind up wiping them out by accident, and I suspect Ysengrin would see them as more than likely to do so.) There are probably far more inhabitants of the Wood than of the Court (even after those forest-folk who went to live in the Court). Ysengrin and his fellows might see wiping out the Court as the one way to keep it from dooming the etheric population with its "mad scientist" projects - what are the lives of a handful of humans, they'd argue, against the lives of all the talking animals, fairies, Anwyn, etc. in Gilltie Wood?
Now I want to see Ysengrin spring that argument when the diplomatic meeting takes place, to see how the Court will take it when it finds itself on the receiving end of the "ends justify the means" argument.
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Post by red4bestgirl on Jun 5, 2018 0:32:23 GMT
There were a couple of points I keep seeing pop up that are bad but I haven't had the time/wherewithall to respond to specifically before right now, so I will respond to them in this thread since it's the newest one, and summarize so no one has their feelings hurt as much by being directly in the quote where I go "this argument is really bad and dumb." Dumb argument 1: "We don't know that Jeanne's ghost was protecting the Court from Coyote and/or that Ysengrin couldn't have just crossed even with her there." Rebuttal: What, like yes we do, do you now know how context and implication work. Coyote explicitly talks about Jeanne's ghost limiting Ysengrin here and in the next page. This is then directly called back a whole of twelve pages later, after Ysengrin has finished eating Coyote, here and most explicitly the first panel here. And these are all recent comics, not very long removed. Like this is basic Kuleshov stuff. Ysengrin devours Coyote, gains his strength and knowledge and whatever else. Flood of memories. First the emotional stuff about Coyote being a dick to him, and then: "What would you do with my strength?" "I would show the humans how weak they truly are." Immediate shot of Coyote walking across the waters, a shot that was accompanied all of thirteen pages ago with the line, "Ah, Ysengrin. What would you do if you knew the Ghost of the Annan Waters was gone?" The implication that Ysen is only able to break through so easily because of Jeanne's absence is overwhelming, and indeed, this would be unfathomably bad and misdirecting comic-writing if that wasn't the case. Yeah, this makes a lot of sense. A robot can walk across the bridge - but Ysengrin can't (unless Coyote's with him). Shadow-creatures hiding in the robot can cross the bridge with hostile intent - but Ysengrin can't. Annie in an emotional breakdown, crying so hard she can barely see, can run across the bridge - but Ysengrim can't. Some sapient former-human birds can fly across the chasm - but Ysengrin can't walk across the bridge. Kat with her anti-gravity device can fly across the chasm - but Ysengrin can't walk across the bridge. An ordinary bird can fly over the chasm - but Ysengrin can't walk across the bridge. Those tree-wolves laden with shadow creatures in the flashback chapter could get across the chasm somehow, probably using the bridge - but Ysengrin can't. Because Jeanne, who has been shown to murder pretty much anything including psychopomps and robotic devices that go over the water IN the chasm, has a thing for Ysengrin in particular and won't let him - but only him - go over the water ABOVE the chasm. Sorry, I have a problem with this supposition. It would make more sense to say that the Court has other defenses against hostile incursions across the bridge, so Ysengrin crossing the bridge to attack would have been a really bad idea (or, at best, ineffectual) from HIS point of view. It's pretty clear that being able to cross the bridge itself would not have been sufficient. Probably that's where the Court's defenses were concentrated; it's their front gate. Note that the first thing Ysen does after finding out that Jeanne is gone is destroy the bridge. It's no longer necessary. Could he just jumped over the bridge and waters and attacked the Court without Jeanne being able to stop him? I mean, again, that would be bafflingly bad writing if he could, since we are explicitly told twice that it's Jeanne's absence that allowed Ysengrin to attack, a point that is now being brought back up again in the plot. If the answer is, "Oh, that techno-magical defense we set up at the cost of a human soul actually didn't protect anything," then that's simply really bad writing. |
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Post by red4bestgirl on Jun 5, 2018 0:34:40 GMT
I still think that the "could Jeanne have kept Ysengrin out?" question is irrelevant. The relevant part is that the "Jeanne-powered defense" was carried out through murder, torture, and corrupting a person into a spirit of pure hatred and violence - not to mention the motives were impure (Diego's desire for revenge). Even if it could have defended the Court from all harm, it was still immoral. A crime that succeeds in accomplishing its goals is still a crime. This isn't really how moral decision making works. You can think that the cruelty of the defense to Jeanne justifies the cost of removing that defense, but you're still culpable for making the decision to remove the defense. |
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Post by Angry Individual on Jun 5, 2018 5:33:00 GMT
I like to imagine Kat, Red, and Ayilu also appear and go "I, too, helped free her". Honestly sometimes I feel like I am the only one who reads the comic.  |
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