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Post by aline on Jul 31, 2018 20:04:17 GMT
We're going around the topic but I'd like to talk about it away from the page discussions, in general. Because I'm confused. What does Coyote want when he wants to die? What exactly is death in Gunnerkrigg?
We know the death of humans and animals leaves behind a "soul":
- the Guides lead the souls into the ether
- or ghosts are left behind for a while, like Jeanne and Mort
This soul is apparently what feeds the ether.
Then we have what I'd call etheric death:
- The line of part fire elementals passing down the soul of the mother to the daughter
- The hollow fairies who "die" as a rite of passage in order to be reborn as a human/fairy Court student
- Forest creatures whose soul is taken out and passed into a human body, leaving their body to die
The first one sees the birth of a brand new person, while the last two are mostly the same people in a different body. Still the hollow fairies ask to be killed, so it's a form of death. But not one quite as dramatic, since they get to keep going with personality and memories intact.
Then we have the guys who don't die, let's call them the Gods: Coyote, Ysengrin, Renard, Jones...
So on one hand, we have a death of the body, that's easy. But it's not all of it.
What about the soul? It goes on to something else (the ether mostly). We never see a soul just disappear. Is the "death of the soul" an alteration? If we think about Surma's death, she lost her soul to Annie, but Annie is not a copy of her mother. So Surma's soul is gone, because it mutated to form Annie's soul. If we think about what happens in the ether when a soul gets into it, it seems to be some sort of sea of energy, with each soul being an individual drop. Once the drop is in the sea, it can't be taken out of the sea anymore. The soul changes because it's absorbed and diluted into it...
What about Coyote? He doesn't really have a body to kill. He can't go into the ether because he already lives there. Whatever he's doing, he's not experiencing the same thing as a human (or a rabbit) dying. But he fused with Ysengrin to give birth to a third, new entity. Is that what he wanted to experience? To have his soul mutated into something entirely new and not-him? Is that in principle the same thing as joining all the other souls into the ether?
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Post by jda on Jul 31, 2018 21:53:54 GMT
Some Random Thoughts
1- Interestingly, humans that want to go animal-ly dont have to die, but "slowly" mutate into the animal form. (Kat bf, I don't have the reference)
2- By Jones' word, Coyote "can't" lie, ... but who says Loup is so bound? We saw what seems to.me as Coyote and Ys totems, and we only have Loup's word on their deaths being final..."dead dead".
3- there is a ridiculously small chance that this new person/personality is an opportunist one, overtaking even Coyote's desires.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 1, 2018 8:13:48 GMT
Is the "death of the soul" an alteration? If we think about Surma's death, she lost her soul to Annie, but Annie is not a copy of her mother. So Surma's soul is gone, because it mutated to form Annie's soul. If we think about what happens in the ether when a soul gets into it, it seems to be some sort of sea of energy, with each soul being an individual drop. Once the drop is in the sea, it can't be taken out of the sea anymore. The soul changes because it's absorbed and diluted into it... I don't think that's quite right. Surma's fire was transferred to Antimony but she doesn't have Surma's memories or feelings. That fire that Antimony's line has apparently substitutes for life-force or motive power or whatever you wish to call it and it's more like a discreet >>thing<< than what humans usually have. A person's story eventually goes into the ether where it is saved but it doesn't appear to continue in any meaningful way. If Antimony dies without having a child and passing on the fire she should be able to cross over like a normal person (better even). You can also call this substance a story. I've taken to thinking of stories as the currency of the Gunnerverse. Presumably you could resurrect people permanently if you contribute some/all of your own story to do so which is (I think) why Anthony's arm was required as an ingredient; his surgical ability would have been able to make a large impact in many people's stories. He probably could have brought a normal person at least somewhat back permanently but Surma was special. When Anthony brought Surma back the fire was in some way inhibited by necessity. And that's why there isn't an immortal soul in the Gunnerverse, at least not for mundane people, but since there is an afterlife for some (and also because you can bring people back if you can pay the price) it's correct to say there's an enduring soul (in the sense that it endures after death). But because the common pleb doesn't have such a discreet block of life-force they can apparently collectively create new stories that impact lives and create myths which can birth creatures who can do things humans can't. A little story is taken from each individual impacted. I suppose I should mention there's also a material requirement. Humans' bodies can make new bodies as long as they have enough resources, and has to make new bodies to house the transfer students from the wood. Anthony's hand shouldn't have completely satisfied that requirement but it did bring Surma back somewhat. If the physical wasn't a requirement Coyote would have been able to make his own humans. Looks like he can supply the life-force in bucket-fulls but little or none of the substance; he doesn't exist, therefore shadow-men. |
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Post by jda on Aug 1, 2018 15:18:48 GMT
[...] If the physical wasn't a requirement Coyote would have been able to make his own humans. Looks like he can supply the life-force in bucket-fulls but little or none of the substance; he doesn't exist, therefore shadow-men. In an unrelated note, I wait for the soul-tearing moment when Shadow remembers he is Coyote, too. |
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Post by Gotolei on Aug 1, 2018 15:25:31 GMT
I suppose I should mention there's also a material requirement. Humans' bodies can make new bodies as long as they have enough resources, and has to make new bodies to house the transfer students from the wood. Anthony's hand shouldn't have completely satisfied that requirement but it did bring Surma back somewhat. If the physical wasn't a requirement Coyote would have been able to make his own humans. Looks like he can supply the life-force in bucket-fulls but little or none of the substance; he doesn't exist, therefore shadow-men. From what I understood ofthis, he isn't (wasn't?) able to create life either. (Not sure if material requirements were limiter either - more exposition/ ranting) (Never thought about it before, but I wonder if there's some sort of symbolic link between Coyote's glass-eyed "shadow men" and the Court's "Shadow Men") |
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Post by fia on Aug 1, 2018 16:23:51 GMT
I think the word 'death' in Gunnerverse is polysemic (has more than one meaning), just like the regular English word. So I think there's sort of grades to the deadliness of a death event.
(1) Familiar human/animal death:
According to Plato, death is separation of the soul from the body. This requires a dualistic metaphysics, where there are at least two sorts of stuff, like soul and body. This is the sort of "death" that ghosts like Mort and Jeanne, and perhaps fairies, experience. It's not the same as wholly ceasing to exist. Presumably, this sort of 'death' can be followed by a reunification with another body, like the fairies and forest creatures undergo, so that it's like an immediate reincarnation with the same personality.
In Gunnerverse, I think it's safe to say the soul, strictly speaking, is the seat of personality, although not sufficient for personal identity (being the same entity across time).
(2) Etheric death:
Being 'recycled' into the ether, once one is all spirit, seems like the Gunnerkrigg 'second death' or more permanent death. It seems important that so far we have only understood etheric death for beings that were previously made of both flesh AND body –– since it seems like the process of death or dying might be different for a creature that was always ether in the first place. I'll get to that.
(3) Material death:
Many people in our own universe think death is whenever your body is destroyed, and they equate this with ceasing to exist. In order for this to be a permanent death for a Gunner-creature, that creature would have to be all matter and no ether. We are not sure if there are such creatures yet.
Perhaps this is how Jones would die, if she could? If her matter could be broken up and formed into another shape or something, there would be no more Jones, and she would cease to exist (just like if you squish a statue made of clay, although the clay is still there, the statue is gone or destroyed). Jones' mystery is that it seems like no other material force she has encountered can break her own material down.
It might be important to note that for both (2) and (3), death is a more complete process, insofar as little or nothing of the original form of the creature is left, even though the stuff making it up might still be of the same type. Death type (1) is the odd one out, because there is some continuity between the stuff and the form, but not complete continuity.
(4) Death of a God
Now, moving on to a God like Coyote, my original argument was that death for Coyote would have to be fairly complex. First we have to look at what defines Coyote being Coyote, and not anything else. It is clear that his etheric or material 'form' is a little irrelevant, as he can switch his forms at will and still sort of remain Coyote. He can do it so well that he can live the whole life and experience of another creature, without in a sense ceasing to be Coyote.
So Coyote, in a way, may be identified a bit by (a) his personality and (b) his absolute power/omniscience/etc. So the only way for him to die would have to be to permanently become something else. I suppose his best guess about how to go about doing this was to fuse with another powerful creature and change his deific 'form' permanently, as fusion completely messes with the basic principles of personal identity that govern all the other changes. There is still a creature having experiences, with all or some of Coyote's memories, but Loup is non-identical with Coyote, just as he is non-identical with Ysengrin.
Put another way: there is no single entity in existence anymore who uniquely gets to be "Coyote", even if there is an entity that is somewhat continuous with Coyote.
That's my best guess, anyway.
(5) Annie/Surma
We can think of fire elementals as sort of a mishmash of (1)-(3), perhaps. It's just that the separation of soul from body is very gradual (the mother elemental dies slowly, as the daughter grows), and the gradual shift allows for a second material body to accrue its own experiences, preferences, and overall personality (the body itself will of course have some influence on these traits, ex., Annie is somewhat like her father). The dwindling of etheric energy is coupled with a sort of material degeneration, so in effect Surma would have undergone a sort of double-whammy death, with no opportunity of persisting in an afterlife, unlike ghosts or other types of creatures.
The connection between the new being, Annie, and the mother being, Surma, is quite strong because they are essentially sharing an etheric existence and energy for much of their life, but their material body ultimately defines their separation. Once Annie has all of the etheric energy, and Surma's body dies, there is nothing left of Surma at all that hasn't become ANnie, she is effectively Extra Dead™ (remember, "nothing left to take"). Fire elementals seem to have built-in recycling mechanisms, without having to rejoin the greater ether like other beings with etheric energy.
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Post by pyradonis on Aug 2, 2018 13:01:33 GMT
(Never thought about it before, but I wonder if there's some sort of symbolic link between Coyote's glass-eyed "shadow men" and the Court's "Shadow Men") At least Juliette said their organization was named after the actual creatures from the Forest. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 2, 2018 19:30:05 GMT
Coyote says he cannot create life from nothing (ex nihilo) and Jones says that the glass-eyed men were born from his body. I'd forgotten that Jones also said that after Coyote grew bored with them and moved on they faded from memory and became shadows. If that's true or if it's a mythic retcon I think it still points at that lack of material structure. Never thought about it before, but I wonder if there's some sort of symbolic link between Coyote's glass-eyed "shadow men" and the Court's "Shadow Men" They do fill a similar role. Also, like a good code-name, if someone in the Court who wasn't in the know happened to overhear someone important who was talking about "the shadow men" a useful misunderstanding could result. In Gunnerverse, I think it's safe to say the soul, strictly speaking, is the seat of personality, although not sufficient for personal identity (being the same entity across time). In that second page Gotolei linked to Coyote says, as he holds *snuffle's* totem, that he's holding her mind, will and life (emphasis his). It may be significant that he mentioned will separately but there just isn't enough evidence to be sure. Being 'recycled' into the ether, once one is all spirit, seems like the Gunnerkrigg 'second death' or more permanent death. It seems important that so far we have only understood etheric death for beings that were previously made of both flesh AND body –– since it seems like the process of death or dying might be different for a creature that was always ether in the first place. Back in religion class in high school I remember one take on hell that the Gunnerverse afterlife-for-some-but-everyone-goes-into-the-ether-eventually reminds me of but I can't remember who thunk it up. Essentially, it had the soul as an enduring soul rather than immortal and no such thing as hell (though there was the divide and the garbage heap). After judgement day the dead who were jerks go into the lake of fire and glass and cease to be. But there was a compromise position with the immortal soul crowd because the lake of fire and glass was the presence of God so it's possible to say that maybe the disappeared souls are still existent but forever locked into whatever past deeds that they preferred over repentance and accepting grace. Not sure if they were supposed to be conscious or no but if so that sure sounds like a sort of hell. Or something like that. It's been several decades. Material death: Many people in our own universe think death is whenever your body is destroyed, and they equate this with ceasing to exist. In order for this to be a permanent death for a Gunner-creature, that creature would have to be all matter and no ether. We are not sure if there are such creatures yet. I'm not sure such a creature is possible in the Gunnerverse. Even the robots have some golem-ish etheric mojo. Viruses, possibly? I'm surprised that while it still could be formsprung I never asked if viruses have 'pomps. If her matter could be broken up and formed into another shape or something, there would be no more Jones, and she would cease to exist (just like if you squish a statue made of clay, although the clay is still there, the statue is gone or destroyed). Jones' mystery is that it seems like no other material force she has encountered can break her own material down. Agree about any change in Jones probably causing her to cease to exist. I like to think of Jones as an oxbow lake from the very earliest days of the flow of ether. So Coyote, in a way, may be identified a bit by (a) his personality and (b) his absolute power/omniscience/etc. I'm still thinking over the ramifications of omniscience in the Gunnerverse, specifically what the duality does to that and the ether as a hyper-position. ...and will probably still be thinking it over a year from now. Also Coyote hasn't claimed to be omniscient; I'm putting stuff "Loup" says in the maybe pile for the moment. So the only way for him to die would have to be to permanently become something else. I suppose his best guess about how to go about doing this was to fuse with another powerful creature and change his deific 'form' permanently, as fusion completely messes with the basic principles of personal identity that govern all the other changes. There is still a creature having experiences, with all or some of Coyote's memories, but Loup is non-identical with Coyote, just as he is non-identical with Ysengrin. I'm taking a wait-and-see approach on that last count. Right now I'm thinking that "Loup" is Ysengrin's will and most of his mind with Coyote's power, and with the parts of Ysengrin that he didn't like and the bits of Coyote he didn't want socked safely away in a totem. I don't know if "Loup" has Coyote's memories or not but I am hearing a lot of Ysengrin in what he says and very little (if any) Coyote and I would think Coyote would have known a lot more about this stuff than Ysengrin so we'd be hearing echos of Coyote's positions and wording. With only Antimony and her blinker-stone created rage-fire self as a benchmark I'm not ready to say that "Loup" =/= Ysengrin. Put another way: there is no single entity in existence anymore who uniquely gets to be "Coyote", even if there is an entity that is somewhat continuous with Coyote. Please permit me to complicate things further by noting that he's got some ability to alter time and maybe we've seen Coyote be in more than one place at the same time. It's just that the separation of soul from body is very gradual (the mother elemental dies slowly, as the daughter grows), and the gradual shift allows for a second material body to accrue its own experiences, preferences, and overall personality (the body itself will of course have some influence on these traits, ex., Annie is somewhat like her father). The dwindling of etheric energy is coupled with a sort of material degeneration, so in effect Surma would have undergone a sort of double-whammy death, with no opportunity of persisting in an afterlife, unlike ghosts or other types of creatures... Once Annie has all of the etheric energy, and Surma's body dies, there is nothing left of Surma at all that hasn't become ANnie, she is effectively Extra Dead™ (remember, "nothing left to take"). Fire elementals seem to have built-in recycling mechanisms, without having to rejoin the greater ether like other beings with etheric energy. I'm not sure if the transfer of the fire is gradual or if once the younger, newer story is stronger the fire just "sticks" to the new host. I would nitpick and say that Surma's mind and memories (and possibly a shred of will) are left behind after her body dies and the new host has the fire. Antimony may have sucked up Surma's will but she doesn't have Surma's memories, at least not in the sense of being able to access them; Surma's mind and whatever else may be stuck nearby, dependent on proximity to the fire to keep going as a ghost in the same way as Antimony needed Surma to be near before the fire was transferred. If there was truly nothing left than there wouldn't be a need to take anything to the ether. But yeah, I basically agree with your take on why the new bearer of the fire is needed to convey the old soul to the ether. |
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Post by jda on Aug 2, 2018 20:00:46 GMT
That's one long and passionate post, man. I almost to;dr'd it.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 3, 2018 5:51:05 GMT
That's one long and passionate post, man. I almost to;dr'd it. You knew what you were getting into when you read the title of the thread. (to;dr? Too odorous? Too ornery?) |
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Post by fia on Aug 3, 2018 14:24:10 GMT
So the only way for him to die would have to be to permanently become something else. I suppose his best guess about how to go about doing this was to fuse with another powerful creature and change his deific 'form' permanently, as fusion completely messes with the basic principles of personal identity that govern all the other changes. There is still a creature having experiences, with all or some of Coyote's memories, but Loup is non-identical with Coyote, just as he is non-identical with Ysengrin. I'm taking a wait-and-see approach on that last count. Right now I'm thinking that "Loup" is Ysengrin's will and most of his mind with Coyote's power, and with the parts of Ysengrin that he didn't like and the bits of Coyote he didn't want socked safely away in a totem. I don't know if "Loup" has Coyote's memories or not but I am hearing a lot of Ysengrin in what he says and very little (if any) Coyote and I would think Coyote would have known a lot more about this stuff than Ysengrin so we'd be hearing echos of Coyote's positions and wording. With only Antimony and her blinker-stone created rage-fire self as a benchmark I'm not ready to say that "Loup" =/= Ysengrin. Put another way: there is no single entity in existence anymore who uniquely gets to be "Coyote", even if there is an entity that is somewhat continuous with Coyote. Please permit me to complicate things further by noting that he's got some ability to alter time and maybe we've seen Coyote be in more than one place at the same time. Just going to clarify real quick: these speculations about the death of Coyote I made only make sense, of course, if Coyote is actually dead. That is to say, I am assuming Loup isn't lying. If he is, we will naturally not need the theory. |
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Post by jda on Aug 11, 2018 2:22:54 GMT
Well, Annie read this thread, and decide she ain't gonna take it... ANNIEMOOOOOORE!
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