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Post by saardvark on Dec 20, 2022 23:42:34 GMT
I actually really liked Jenny's look from the Torn Sea, calling it "generic goth" seems kind of unnecessarily harsh. I am also highly skeptical of Jenny's claim that her change in style counts as "getting over herself". Feels to me like she's implying that the goth thing was just a desperate ploy for attention, while this ultra-femme 50s vintage style is her natural, casual, look. Kind of uncannily like Shell - "I only wear it when I don't care how I look". Sure, girl. Suuuuuure. I'm with you, I liked her goth look and didn't think it was all that generic. Her personality wasn't goth-like either! She was pretty bubbly and positive really.
Now, I can't look at her without thinking of Fallout. yeah, she had the Goth look but with an anti-Goth personality... she wasn't mopey or gloomy-doomy at all.
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Post by saardvark on Dec 19, 2022 22:43:15 GMT
The question is, is Jenny still a witch? She looks more like Dorothy now. Probably not a mere apprentice any more. maybe a younger version of Glinda the good (witch)?
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Post by saardvark on Dec 17, 2022 14:46:53 GMT
yeah, that seems the most obvious and likely person. I was just wondering if there were any other interesting possibilities if Tom wanted to surprise us.... Sounds a bit more hostile towards Annie than I expect Jenny to be. My guess is Red. Could be, but I imagine Red would have said something like "Well, if it isn't Sir-Tubbs-a-Lot!" Idra maybe? She was kind of protective of Eggs, and seemed to like discomforting the Annies...
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Post by saardvark on Dec 15, 2022 19:58:02 GMT
Could "we" be Jack and the *Zimmster*?? That would be a surprise..... Or maybe Jack and Gamma? Just thinking of other possibilities..... My assumption is Jenny from "The Torn Sea". yeah, that seems the most obvious and likely person. I was just wondering if there were any other interesting possibilities if Tom wanted to surprise us....
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Post by saardvark on Dec 15, 2022 0:31:46 GMT
Could "we" be Jack and the *Zimmster*?? That would be a surprise..... Or maybe Jack and Gamma? Just thinking of other possibilities.....
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Post by saardvark on Dec 12, 2022 23:31:03 GMT
Hi all, just wondering if there is any information on when the next Volume will be printed, if at all? I have the first 8 hardbacks, and can't find anything online about when the next one might be published (I saw that Archaia are no longer publishing it, but was hoping something else might be in the pipeline by now?). I love reading it in book form, so am super keen to keep buying them! Thanks welcome to the forum pirate Gwynn!
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Post by saardvark on Dec 9, 2022 16:40:38 GMT
That's cause of the boat chapter Well, they mention ether connected peeps find the ocean "difficult" www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2662but that they are not *allowed* passage, not that they can't manage it (Zimmy survived the trip, after all, and it seemed to have no effect on Gamma or Annie at all). So Kat could infer that Loup might find the ocean "difficult/painful/repellant" but with god-like powers, it doesnt seem impossible that he could overcome its irritating effects....
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Post by saardvark on Dec 8, 2022 1:54:48 GMT
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Post by saardvark on Dec 5, 2022 20:18:20 GMT
yeesh, this is so brutal though. If you were just sacrificing one (Jeanne, Zimmy) one could *maybe* pseudo-justify (in the Court's mind) it as "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one", but if you are draining 100s of folks left behind... that is real supervillain level stuff. Could the Court look at itself in the mirror without loathing what it had done/become? Plot twist, the memory erasure works both ways and those who crossed over also forget who they left behind, so they can start over with a clean conscience.
I'm calling dibs on this idea in case Tom doesn't use it, by the way.
ugg, this is even worse! Lets the Court do anything, blackest of evil, and the la-de-da conveniently be able to completely forget it ever happened....
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Post by saardvark on Dec 4, 2022 3:41:28 GMT
Why restrict themselves to one student or two? It's not like any of them are coming along, anyway. True. And a huge drain is a bit more... dramatic of a finale and as has been pointed out in this thread Zimmy is a great catalyst. Which would also explain her concern and basically narrative alarm bells being rung for the audience. Zimmyham is rough if you know what you are doing and is hard to end. The Torn Sea (which would be super foreshadowing/setup in this format) had the siphons which were not actually well defended. A sudden everyone not coming with being shoved into Zimmyham would make defense and counter response a LOT harder. And... well the Court that is leaving fits a certain thematic mold. That of not caring about those not like themselves. Making everyone the drain or at least everyone they wouldn't offer to bring along... well it fits doesn't it. yeesh, this is so brutal though. If you were just sacrificing one (Jeanne, Zimmy) one could *maybe* pseudo-justify (in the Court's mind) it as "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one", but if you are draining 100s of folks left behind... that is real supervillain level stuff. Could the Court look at itself in the mirror without loathing what it had done/become?
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Post by saardvark on Dec 3, 2022 15:18:46 GMT
A lot depends on just when it was reconfigured! It clearly affected Loup when he got close to it on the train. Maglev? You know what I mean. So if it wasn't reconfigured until after Loup's Big Adventure (LBA), then this might be the clue that blows Jerrek's cover, allowing Annie to figure out where Loup is hiding. In that case, it might also be that those thinking it is reconfigured for Zimmy are correct. If it was reconfigured before the train ride, then the reconfiguration didn't do what Kat thinks, and Loup is not off the hook. I assume people are thinking it was reconfigured for Zimmy because she noticed something changed. We saw that just after LBA but there is timey wimey stuff sometimes and we don't know for sure that's the order things happened in, nor how long passed in between. At the time, I kinda thought she sensed the change in Loup for some reason, but I guess this makes more sense - Zimmy would care more about things that directly affected her or Gamma. I'm inclined to take what Kat said at face value - either it's true or it's what she really believes. Still. Did the court reps tell her that the ocean was configured to suck Coyote dry, or did she deduce that? Did they tell her about the reconfiguration? If so, what specifically did they say? Heck, do we really know that Renard has a lot of etheric power? We really haven't seen him do that much! His body-changing-through-eyes power came from Coyote and we have no reason to believe it takes a lot of power to use, and we've always been told he doesn't care about power and is more of a sneaky prankster type. He can enter the ether and act there but we really have no reason to believe he's carrying around a big glob of ether, like Coyote. What I'm poking at here is that what she says could be true but she may not be correct about every part of it, due to just not knowing. Even if the court reps specifically told her the ocean was previously configured to suck Coyote's power and had been reconfigured, that doesn't mean they are telling the truth, but it also could be true and still not contradict the ocean affecting Zimmy and not Renard, depending on their real innate power levels. We know Zimmy gathers up ether but can't generally do anything with it, like a broken power station, but we don't know anything about Renard's relationship to the ether. Yeah, the timing is important here. If it was recalibrated for Zimmy, why was Loup still affected? Prior to the supposed Zim-recal, it was calibrated for Coyote... so Loup is affected because he is partly Coyote(?). Unless the recal was quite recent, and then perhaps now it is no longer affecting Loup (and Jerrek) (?). I guess time will tell.... EDIT: or quite simply, is *Loup* the new target? (Considering him as at least partly distinct of Coyote)
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Post by saardvark on Dec 2, 2022 18:27:03 GMT
wait - Im missing something - how does Kat know that Loup can't go to the ocean?
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Post by saardvark on Nov 15, 2022 3:07:07 GMT
Back in my day, we couldn't simply "do it" like kids nowadays! We had procedures to follow!
but... but... I don't have any Listerated Pepsin gum! No wonder this never works for me.....
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Post by saardvark on Oct 14, 2022 12:37:14 GMT
Tea seems to have a map with large portions (including a small town/city, judging from the outline and the roads connecting) that are cross-hatched out. A forbidden zone? Desolated by war, chem/bio contamination, radiation?
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Post by saardvark on Oct 14, 2022 12:21:29 GMT
Pre-announcing an announcement on Friday, cue fevered speculation. Go! My prediction is that this time Tea will greet us from space, possibly on a derelict space station.
Edit: Well, that aged like milk.
on a derelict aircraft, so not *that* far off.... one is falling around the earth and one already fell! Worth a cookie crumb, maybe.... to go with the old milk?
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Post by saardvark on Oct 13, 2022 0:47:47 GMT
and conveniently the central stem of the antimony symbol is a stretched ankh (as if you pulled down on the ankh crosslet and stretched out a stem). The ankh is of course a symbol for (eternal) life in ancient Egypt, associated with Osiris (lord of death and the underworld), etc.... and so perfect for an afterlife guide. I've always believed the Antimony symbol on that page was her personal symbol. Renard basically has it branded on him, as we first saw in the science fair hall, and the RoTD guy only names two roles - Gilitee Medium and Afterlife Guide. You can go all the way back here to see that is her personal symbol. Her mother also gave her a necklace with the same symbol. The crown was added later, as was her role as a guide. I just don't believe Surma sold her to the guides at birth, nor that her name means "Afterlife Guide".
Obviously I have no proof, any more than you do, but the use of that symbol has been consistent and we have always seen it associated with Antimony, since before she became a medium or promised to one day be a guide. Surely her heritage is as a descendant of a line of fire elementals, rather than as one doomed to be a guide when her mother was not! Her very NAME is Antimony, and her mother gave her a necklace with the symbol of Antimony. To assume Antimony is the symbol of the guides, you have to assume a very different interpretation of Surma's feelings about Annie. Not a positive one, and one I just can't believe.
The guides, on the other hand, are selfish and tried to suck her into their MLM scheme as early as the hospital, and basically forced her to take her mother into the light by not showing up. That's why she shows as having the role already in the RoTD, way before she agreed to do it. Or so I believe.
oh I totally agree, I think it *is* her personal symbol, definitely! I was just pointing out that an element in her symbol was ankh-like, which is nicely harmonious with the idea of an afterlife guide. Annie *is* sort of a natural at being a guide, having a built-in etheric nature, being ether attractive, knowing many of the guides, and already having some guide experience.... even if she doesnt really like the idea of doing it as a full time occupation.
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Post by saardvark on Oct 11, 2022 14:53:05 GMT
Kat's sigil is that of the Creator. Makes sense. Annie's sigil is Afterlife Guide! Is that really her main thing now? Huh. I think the "crown" stands for the fire spirit. When she transformed into the fire elemental form and tried to attack Loup, he stopped her which was symbolized by him holding the "crown". He also looked at it when speaking of "this side of you".
Which leaves the question which one is the Afterlife Guide sigil then. Going by process of elimination it would then be the Antimony symbol. (The Gillitie symbol is obvious.) There is precedent for this, considering the alchemical symbol for Lead also stands for the role of Protector of the Court. and conveniently the central stem of the antimony symbol is a stretched ankh (as if you pulled down on the ankh crosslet and stretched out a stem). The ankh is of course a symbol for (eternal) life in ancient Egypt, associated with Osiris (lord of death and the underworld), etc.... and so perfect for an afterlife guide.
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Post by saardvark on Oct 11, 2022 14:41:48 GMT
ok, here's a weird idea (probably totally wrong, as most of these types are): We all know Coyote never lies, but can warp the truth into such a pretzel it's hard to recognize. What if it was his big plan was for him to experience death, and through Loup, to experience love? And in experiencing love, Loup is "killed", in the sense that his Jerrek persona takes over completely, powered by that love? And Loup acquiesces, thinking it a good plan, since he enjoys the experience too (it's more pleasant than being boring tantrum toddler Loup, who everyone dislikes...). And Annie has killed Loup, in a very minor, accidental way, by stirring jealous feelings in Lana and facilitating this meeting of the two of them. (maybe I should. have put this in Wild Spec...) Except that Coyote literally said he means for Annie to use the Tooth to kill Loup... Hmm, yes, I should have put that killed in " " as well. [now fixed, thanks!] You're right of course, she will have to actually kill him later with the tooth; this love explosion is only a metaphorical death... a death of his control over the Jerrek persona. Or ... if it *is* a real explosion, maybe she returns and performs a mercy killing on Loup's shattered remains?
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Post by saardvark on Oct 11, 2022 1:29:42 GMT
I interpreted the page as Lana's love for him causing him to explode, not his love for Lana. Maybe that's the aromantic in me, or more likely, the cynic. A lot of people get addicted to the high of someone caring about them without reciprocating it at all. Loup seems the sort. Seems also quite possible! My reading was that Lana's love was enough to let the Jerrek persona "tip the balance", and take over control - we see his response. (Yes, Jerrek was keen on Annie before, but this was unreturned, and I was thinking mostly a reflection of Loup's feelings anyway. Young love being fickle, Jerrek's affections are easily rerouted to someone who actually responds to him [and even his surly over-self]). Or.... alternately, unloved Loup is touched by the first ever profession of love to *him* and it sort of blows his circuits! But I like your idea too... we shall see which it is soon, maybe.
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Post by saardvark on Oct 11, 2022 0:48:58 GMT
Kat and Annie are often associated with the Moon and the Sun. Has there ever been a discussion about whether Annie leaving her fingerprint on the moon has any significance? It has probably been thunk by someone before, but it could just be a metaphor for the strong influence Annie has on Kat - she has "left her mark" so to speak! The Norns attest to Annie's significance to Kat's trajectory....
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Post by saardvark on Oct 11, 2022 0:44:40 GMT
Some random thoughts: With Kat being "Court/science" and Annie being Forest/etheric, the two sides plus Kat or Annie make kind of a blocky Yin-Yang symbol.
A meeting/joining together (and detente? peace? even alliance?) of Forest and Court is played out from right (Forest) and left (Court) along the bottom. Forest god Loup = fusion of Coyote and Ys (lower left) meets the Court part way by incarnating as NP Jerrek (lower center) and falling in love with .... NP Lana (lower center) who loves him back. She arises from robots (lower right) fused with the Angel's (Kat's) biotech through an etheric catalyst (arrow transfer device, just above) with an assist from S13 (in Angel form, also figuratively representing Kat's "Angel", lower right).
At the top (less certain of this...) you've got the etheric realm (top left - there was an earlier representation of Kat breaking into these "celestial [etheric] spheres") and at top right you have the Court's scientific application this ether realm, turning it into or using it as the star ocean transport medium to a new world (which I'm presuming is represented at top center)... so again, the Forest/ether and Court/science sort of working together (though its more the Court *using* the ether) to achieve a goal.
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Post by saardvark on Oct 11, 2022 0:20:18 GMT
Singles and Couples: I don't think most of the Treatise sides tell a story, like the top and bottom rows. Just my opinion. Still, there is information there, and maybe some hints about the future. We have several singles - people who end up alone? Shadow 2, Idra, Paz, Eglamore, and Tony. Most (all?) have hints about their personalities. Some obvious, some not (such as Shadow 2's toga - or is it a shroud?). We have several couples. Zimmy and Gamma, Shell and Aata, Parley and Smitty. The singles and couples seem to be pretty much on the correct sides - the left is the forest, the right the court. Except... are they? Shadow 2 grew up in the court, supposedly, and Zimmy and Gamma don't really belong in the forest, surely? The animals and the family of elves on the forest side certainly seem right, but those seem... odd. perhaps is more the ether side and the Court/science-ruled side? possibly explainable exceptions: Aata is on the Court side despite having etheric powers rather by choice, the arrow is powerfully etheric, but warped by the Court (Diego) for their own purposes.... they owned it, and controlled it (and now Kat does). Zimms and Gamms are of the Court, but outcasts there and predominantly etheric in nature. Eggs and Parley have etheric tattoos, and Parley and Smitts have some etheric abilities, but are Court by choice and orientation. The star ocean is etheric, but again, like the arrow, Court manufactured and owned.
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Post by saardvark on Oct 10, 2022 13:45:05 GMT
also placed in [2686] but maybe belongs here(?):
ok, here's a weird idea (probably totally wrong, as most of these types are): We all know Coyote never lies, but can warp the truth into such a pretzel it's hard to recognize. What if it was his big plan was for him to experience death, and through Loup, to experience love? And in experiencing love, Loup is "killed", in the sense that his Jerrek persona takes over completely, powered by that love? And Loup acquiesces, thinking it a good plan, since he enjoys the experience too (it's more pleasant than being boring tantrum toddler Loup, who everyone dislikes...). And Annie has "killed" Loup, in a very minor, accidental way, by stirring jealous feelings in Lana and facilitating this meeting of two of them.
EDIT: added " " to "killed" Loup, since (as Pyradonis pointed out) of course, Annie is supposed to do this for real with the giggle tooth later. Here it is just a metaphorical killing of Loup's control over Jerrek.
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Post by saardvark on Oct 10, 2022 13:43:36 GMT
One thing that took me a fat minute to figure out was the symbols in the corners of the center frame... moon (Kat) and sun (Antimony) on the Wood side, and the triangles which I believe are trivium for the Court side. Kat's moon is waxing (Kat getting stronger) and both girls' triviums are reversed from the other's perspective (they don't learn/grow the same way). And extending this, Kat learns with her hands and head (as an engineer/scientist), hence her using/manipulating her etheric computer interface; Annie learns by feeling her way around things, tends to make emotional decisions, with hands on heart.
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Post by saardvark on Oct 10, 2022 13:36:01 GMT
I get the feeling that the animal silhouttes stand for humans who trade their humanity away and move to the Forest. Aata is an etheric being who is working for the Court. Isn't it strange that Cvet is on the Forest side? I would say no because we don't know where Cvet's kind come from but it sure isn't from the court Sivo was Slovenian if memory serves (or at least spoke it, as Eggs parting words suggest), www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=56and Orjaks generally come from mountians on the Slovenian/Italian border www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=58(though apparently have been seen as far as the Black Sea shore of Turkey) Basically out in the wilds of SE Europe into Asia Minor, so maybe the Forest side is a better match than the cityscape of the Court.
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Post by saardvark on Oct 10, 2022 13:07:41 GMT
ok, here's a weird idea (probably totally wrong, as most of these types are): We all know Coyote never lies, but can warp the truth into such a pretzel it's hard to recognize. What if it was his big plan was for him to experience death, and through Loup, to experience love? And in experiencing love, Loup is "killed", in the sense that his Jerrek persona takes over completely, powered by that love? And Loup acquiesces, thinking it a good plan, since he enjoys the experience too (it's more pleasant than being boring tantrum toddler Loup, who everyone dislikes...). And Annie has "killed" Loup, in a very minor, accidental way, by stirring jealous feelings in Lana and facilitating this meeting of the two of them.
(maybe I should. have put this in Wild Spec...)
EDIT: added " " to "killed" Loup, as per Pyradonis' comment below
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Post by saardvark on Sept 24, 2022 0:15:22 GMT
Maybe only purely etheric creatures have problems with the star ocean. Creatures with links to the "mundane" are OK. Renard is Annie's familiar, which protects him. Annie is part human. New people are fundamentally Kat's organic creations with a touch of ether thru arrow-transfer tech. Loup (or Coyote or Ys) have problems, but Jerrek, as a physical creation of Loup he can "incarnate" into, is maybe OK(?). We will see! Loup looks to definitely be having some stability issues tho....
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Post by saardvark on Sept 9, 2022 20:31:14 GMT
This all puts me in mind of one of my favorite songs of all time:
I've seen BoC live twice in my life, over 30 years apart. Guess it's only a matter of time before personal stuff starts coming out here. Anyway, now I'm gonna hear that song as a soundtrack when reading about Loup. Thanks for the song tip! Never heard much early BOC before... great solo this one. Its always fun to discover new music!
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Post by saardvark on Sept 9, 2022 17:22:16 GMT
End of chapter 22. Poster says "VISIT THE STARS". Seems more significant now that we know about the Star Ocean! The thingie behind Kat looks pretty star-like also, with bright lights on a figure that seems to have tentacles.
A couple of other things on that page I'm not sure have been fully explained:
Renard has Annie's symbol on him, fine. But why does Ysengrin have the Bismuth symbol on him?
What are the antler-looking shadow things on the building on the left, next to the shadow figure?
And earlier in that same chapter, we see one of the bound dogs (tree dogs) destroyed by the previous Dragon Slayer, and a couple of shadows scurrying off into the court. This is when Surma and Anja and the gang were in school. Are those Shadow 2's parents?
and what about the stone figurine on the ground next to the sword behind Kat, Jones perhaps? (Looks like that famous Stoneage Venus figurine!)
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Post by saardvark on Sept 7, 2022 11:02:51 GMT
Huh. My first thought was that the Jerrek persona is getting independent... but why would Jerrek be suddenly so bent on seeing the Star Ocean? Maybe Jerrek isn't so interested, but Loup is and is reassessing his control (and asserting *his* interest). Or... maybe Jerrek, seeing Annie's doubtful look at him taking her hand, is deflecting onto Loup's desired course - making the hand grab about "wanting star ocean" instead of "wanting a fire-haired girl". They sort of amount to the same thing, arrived by different means....
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