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Post by bedinsis on Nov 18, 2020 16:42:58 GMT
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Post by wies on Nov 18, 2020 22:24:56 GMT
The right subject for a father-daughter moment: 'Hey, dad, did you too acquire a scar after a terrific meeting with a spectral being that could have ended way worse?" 'Yes.'
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Post by Isildur on Nov 19, 2020 0:12:48 GMT
The right subject for a father-daughter moment: 'Hey, dad, did you too acquire a scar after a terrific meeting with a spectral being that could have ended way worse?" 'Yes.' It's still puzzling to me why Jeanne was able to cross the water despite usually being bound to the Court side, and why her attack was ended by Kat's arrival. I suspect that will never be explained, since the natural narrative opportunities for characters discussing it seemed to have mostly been shut down, once the Jeanne arc was wrapped up. Perhaps some further exposition in that regard could be provided if Kat ever examines the arrow more (in some manner that doesn't count as forbidden "misuse"), or if there's some other flashback to Jeanne's period.
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Post by pyradonis on Nov 19, 2020 7:23:48 GMT
The right subject for a father-daughter moment: 'Hey, dad, did you too acquire a scar after a terrific meeting with a spectral being that could have ended way worse?" 'Yes.' It's still puzzling to me why Jeanne was able to cross the water despite usually being bound to the Court side, and why her attack was ended by Kat's arrival. [...] Or why it wasn't immediately fatal like Jeanne's attacks usually were.
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Post by arf on Nov 19, 2020 11:52:26 GMT
... I have a vague suspicion that we haven't seen the last of Jeanne.
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Post by bedinsis on Nov 19, 2020 16:27:21 GMT
It's still puzzling to me why Jeanne was able to cross the water despite usually being bound to the Court side She wasn't.and why her attack was ended by Kat's arrival. This puzzles me a great deal as well. My best explanation is wholly unsatisfactory: this was the first time Mr. Siddell had portrayed the ether and he probably hadn't figured out the full mechanics yet. And he probably wanted to portray it in a "was it a dream or was it real?"-fashion hence why it suddenly stopped, with the scar seemingly missing. I suspect we'll never find out what happened, since the average reader probably already has forgotten about this. And potential sources of what happened has dwindled: the suicide fairies aka Red and Ayilu has been stated to never appear in the comic again, otherwise they'd be good eye witnesses, and I halfway expected the Norn chapter to end with them seeing some footage from the barely functioning Tic-Toc before being destroyed by Ysengrin, but alas. Another explanation would be if Jeanne is weaker on the Forest side of the river(hence why she only attacked the creature commanded by Ysengrin to cross the river once it was over the actual river) and Kat's sudden light was enough to make her flee.
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Post by mturtle7 on Nov 19, 2020 18:28:46 GMT
It's still puzzling to me why Jeanne was able to cross the water despite usually being bound to the Court side She wasn't.and why her attack was ended by Kat's arrival. This puzzles me a great deal as well. My best explanation is wholly unsatisfactory: this was the first time Mr. Siddell had portrayed the ether and he probably hadn't figured out the full mechanics yet. And he probably wanted to portray it in a "was it a dream or was it real?"-fashion hence why it suddenly stopped, with the scar seemingly missing. I suspect we'll never find out what happened, since the average reader probably already has forgotten about this. And potential sources of what happened has dwindled: the suicide fairies aka Red and Ayilu has been stated to never appear in the comic again, otherwise they'd be good eye witnesses, and I halfway expected the Norn chapter to end with them seeing some footage from the barely functioning Tic-Toc before being destroyed by Ysengrin, but alas. Another explanation would be if Jeanne is weaker on the Forest side of the river(hence why she only attacked the creature commanded by Ysengrin to cross the river once it was over the actual river) and Kat's sudden light was enough to make her flee. Reading all this analysis, I finally had an epiphany: Jeanne never intended to kill Annie.
We've all been assuming that Jeanne is purely a rage ghost who immediately attacks anyone who enters the ravine...but it's rather demonstrably not like that. She immediately kills anyone who tries to cross the river, sure (and I'm just now realizing that that's why the Tic-tocs take her to the other shore...), but when stuff falls onto either shore she consistently gets a lot more thoughtful and chatty. It's less that she's "weaker" on the shore, and more that she has way less imperative to actually murderize people if they're just sitting there.
And I'm remembering now, that it was kind of heavily implied that Jeanne was always waiting for someone to take her to the ether...she probably sensed on some level that Annie could help her, and reacted the only way she knew how: with cold, petty, spite and pure hatred. That cut was clearly not meant to kill, just a Zorro-like way of announcing your superiority to the enemy, which "coincidentally" also alerted the nascent psychopomp to her presence without actually killing her.
Although actually, I have to admit it does seem like Jeanne only appeared to Annie when her fire went out, and disappeared specifically when Kat's spotlight shone on her...maybe Jeanne needs darkness to manifest, but only when it's on the river's shores? IDK, it kinda reads like one of those things which Tom intended as an important plot point early on in the comic's development, but then never actually came up again in any significant capacity - like Basil, for instance.
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Post by mturtle7 on Nov 19, 2020 18:35:33 GMT
Noticed while looking at pages for the above theory: in the first panel here, Kat is mad at Andrew for hurting that bird when he threw the blinker stone. Kat likes birds, you guys!
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Post by pyradonis on Nov 19, 2020 22:15:28 GMT
She wasn't.This puzzles me a great deal as well. My best explanation is wholly unsatisfactory: this was the first time Mr. Siddell had portrayed the ether and he probably hadn't figured out the full mechanics yet. And he probably wanted to portray it in a "was it a dream or was it real?"-fashion hence why it suddenly stopped, with the scar seemingly missing. I suspect we'll never find out what happened, since the average reader probably already has forgotten about this. And potential sources of what happened has dwindled: the suicide fairies aka Red and Ayilu has been stated to never appear in the comic again, otherwise they'd be good eye witnesses, and I halfway expected the Norn chapter to end with them seeing some footage from the barely functioning Tic-Toc before being destroyed by Ysengrin, but alas. Another explanation would be if Jeanne is weaker on the Forest side of the river(hence why she only attacked the creature commanded by Ysengrin to cross the river once it was over the actual river) and Kat's sudden light was enough to make her flee. Reading all this analysis, I finally had an epiphany: Jeanne never intended to kill Annie.
We've all been assuming that Jeanne is purely a rage ghost who immediately attacks anyone who enters the ravine...but it's rather demonstrably not like that. She immediately kills anyone who tries to cross the river, sure (and I'm just now realizing that that's why the Tic-tocs take her to the other shore...), but when stuff falls onto either shore she consistently gets a lot more thoughtful and chatty. It's less that she's "weaker" on the shore, and more that she has way less imperative to actually murderize people if they're just sitting there.
And I'm remembering now, that it was kind of heavily implied that Jeanne was always waiting for someone to take her to the ether...she probably sensed on some level that Annie could help her, and reacted the only way she knew how: with cold, petty, spite and pure hatred. That cut was clearly not meant to kill, just a Zorro-like way of announcing your superiority to the enemy, which "coincidentally" also alerted the nascent psychopomp to her presence without actually killing her. I have to respectufully disagree. The final records of her victims show that she killed indiscriminately, without warning and without being provoked. Jeanne even killed several psychopomps, Annie was the first one to be able to help her at all while the others had given up, claiming to be "powerless to help her". The question is, which unique quality does Annie possess which makes her able to help? Is it just that as she is not technically a psychopomp herself, she is not bound by the rule not to interfere with the living, and thus is free to assemble a team of living people which can do the job? Sounds a bit thin as an explanation.
Also, both Mort and Muut claimed Jeanne should not be able to cross the river, before and after she did, so the comic explicitly acknowledged it as most unusual when exactly this happened...but never came back to it. Also also, Parley, who should know, states that Jeanne could have killed her and Annie "in a heartbeat", so again it was pointed out in-comic that for some reason she held back deliberately on Annie even while attacking.
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Post by saardvark on Nov 19, 2020 22:47:57 GMT
She wasn't.This puzzles me a great deal as well. My best explanation is wholly unsatisfactory: this was the first time Mr. Siddell had portrayed the ether and he probably hadn't figured out the full mechanics yet. And he probably wanted to portray it in a "was it a dream or was it real?"-fashion hence why it suddenly stopped, with the scar seemingly missing. I suspect we'll never find out what happened, since the average reader probably already has forgotten about this. And potential sources of what happened has dwindled: the suicide fairies aka Red and Ayilu has been stated to never appear in the comic again, otherwise they'd be good eye witnesses, and I halfway expected the Norn chapter to end with them seeing some footage from the barely functioning Tic-Toc before being destroyed by Ysengrin, but alas. Another explanation would be if Jeanne is weaker on the Forest side of the river(hence why she only attacked the creature commanded by Ysengrin to cross the river once it was over the actual river) and Kat's sudden light was enough to make her flee. Reading all this analysis, I finally had an epiphany: Jeanne never intended to kill Annie.
We've all been assuming that Jeanne is purely a rage ghost who immediately attacks anyone who enters the ravine...but it's rather demonstrably not like that. She immediately kills anyone who tries to cross the river, sure (and I'm just now realizing that that's why the Tic-tocs take her to the other shore...), but when stuff falls onto either shore she consistently gets a lot more thoughtful and chatty. It's less that she's "weaker" on the shore, and more that she has way less imperative to actually murderize people if they're just sitting there.
And I'm remembering now, that it was kind of heavily implied that Jeanne was always waiting for someone to take her to the ether...she probably sensed on some level that Annie could help her, and reacted the only way she knew how: with cold, petty, spite and pure hatred. That cut was clearly not meant to kill, just a Zorro-like way of announcing your superiority to the enemy, which "coincidentally" also alerted the nascent psychopomp to her presence without actually killing her.
Although actually, I have to admit it does seem like Jeanne only appeared to Annie when her fire went out, and disappeared specifically when Kat's spotlight shone on her...maybe Jeanne needs darkness to manifest, but only when it's on the river's shores? IDK, it kinda reads like one of those things which Tom intended as an important plot point early on in the comic's development, but then never actually came up again in any significant capacity - like Basil, for instance. Agreed, Jeanne did not intend to kill Annie. Here's a slightly different take on it: Jeanne sees someone falling from the bridge, and several birds join in to rescue her and drop her in the water, near the other side of the river. Maybe she starts to rise up to attack, but the birds are quicker and Annie is swimming the other way now anyway. But Jeanne finds herself not only astonished/puzzled by this, but strangely drawn to the figure (both for the manner of entrance, and Annie's intrinsic etheric attractiveness). She probably senses that this person is not fully human (vaguely sensing the fire elemental, or the proto-psychopomp abilities, or both). So, she crosses over to investigate. (Not to kill, since she isn't threatening to cross anymore.). To test if this is a human, or a spirit, or a pomp, or some demigod, in her rage-ghosty way, she knicks Annie with her rapier to see if she bleeds. Fortunately, Kat appears with a bright spotlight, which Jeanne doesnt like and causes her to leave (doesnt like the ether fire, or the lights on the bridge either). Of course, this leaves the puzzle of why the Scooby-gang didn't bring a spotlight when they bipped down to set Jeanne free... tho maybe its because that would have scared her off, kinda ruining the point of the mission.
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Post by blahzor on Nov 20, 2020 5:52:34 GMT
Jeanne clearly doesn't try and kill anything that's down there because Y's went down there plenty of times on that side. The fairies even went but knew they didn't want her type of kill. The only really thing I got for why she seemingly crossed to cut Annie has to do with whatever makes Annie special and attract things happening to her
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Post by maxptc on Nov 20, 2020 6:24:15 GMT
Jeanne clearly doesn't try and kill anything that's down there because Y's went down there plenty of times on that side. The fairies even went but knew they didn't want her type of kill. The only really thing I got for why she seemingly crossed to cut Annie has to do with whatever makes Annie special and attract things happening to her I kinda read it as Jeanne had a lot of free will despite being stuck, and only "had" to kill if someone tried to cross the water. Otherwise she can leave people alone or threatened or kill as she desires.
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Post by bedinsis on Nov 20, 2020 6:56:25 GMT
Reading the speculation(that SHOULD be in the wild spec thread or a separate thread but whatever) I had a new theory: Jeanne attacks creatures that crosses the river or which disturbs her from her mission to do so. Her attack on Annie when she fell down there was due to her having recognized that she was human and therefore must've crossed over. The creatures she killed was either those trying to cross the river or a psychopomp trying to take her away. In her first fight with Parley she had to justify herself with "[this life] should be mine to take", and her last appearance in this comic had her meeting people that tried to deceive her and mess with Diego's arrow. ...which still does not explain why she fled when Kat arrived in her machine. EDIT: ...like maxptc said, more or less.
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Post by wies on Nov 20, 2020 7:02:11 GMT
...which still does not explain why she fled when Kat arrived in her machine. Zimmy claimed to be at first sight being terrified of Kat's nature. Maybe Kat's future apotheosis also influenced Jeanne? Killing the forest creatures is one thing, a god a different thing altogether. Also, she didn't cross the river.
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Post by blahzor on Nov 20, 2020 12:26:12 GMT
Oh oh oh as we know now that Coyote was there there's a chance it wasn't Jeanne who cut Annie to begin with. It's now more likely his doing to get her interested in fixing the Jeanne problem for him to later set up Y's attack.
This does ruining my theory that Coyote has never seen Kat. He's probably only seen her robot angel form tho
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Nov 20, 2020 12:41:34 GMT
Oh oh oh as we know now that Coyote was there there's a chance it wasn't Jeanne who cut Annie to begin with. It's now more likely his doing to get her interested in fixing the Jeanne problem for him to later set up Y's attack. This does ruining my theory that Coyote has never seen Kat. He's probably only seen her robot angel form tho When do you think Coyote may have seen Kat? Coyote flicked the Tic Toc, but Kat didn't fly down to rescue Annie until the next day. Maybe Coyote was still there, but nothing in the comic has shown that. I think your theory is still intact.
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Post by Druplesnubb on Nov 20, 2020 13:35:34 GMT
I thought it was obvious that the lights from Kat's flying machine scared away Jeanne just as she was about to kill Annie.
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Post by saardvark on Nov 20, 2020 13:44:45 GMT
Oh oh oh as we know now that Coyote was there there's a chance it wasn't Jeanne who cut Annie to begin with. It's now more likely his doing to get her interested in fixing the Jeanne problem for him to later set up Y's attack. This does ruining my theory that Coyote has never seen Kat. He's probably only seen her robot angel form tho When do you think Coyote may have seen Kat? Coyote flicked the Tic Toc, but Kat didn't fly down to rescue Annie until the next day. Maybe Coyote was still there, but nothing in the comic has shown that. I think your theory is still intact.
I think blahzor is suggesting that Coyote disguised himself as Jeanne and attacked Annie to get her interested in the whole "Jeanne story". It would explain why "Jeanne" as able to cross the river...
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Post by pyradonis on Nov 20, 2020 15:21:00 GMT
I thought it was obvious that the lights from Kat's flying machine scared away Jeanne just as she was about to kill Annie. If a bright light is all that it takes to scare Jeanne away she's not exactly a very effective guardian.
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Post by blahzor on Nov 20, 2020 15:35:39 GMT
Oh oh oh as we know now that Coyote was there there's a chance it wasn't Jeanne who cut Annie to begin with. It's now more likely his doing to get her interested in fixing the Jeanne problem for him to later set up Y's attack. This does ruining my theory that Coyote has never seen Kat. He's probably only seen her robot angel form tho When do you think Coyote may have seen Kat? Coyote flicked the Tic Toc, but Kat didn't fly down to rescue Annie until the next day. Maybe Coyote was still there, but nothing in the comic has shown that. I think your theory is still intact.
the only time would be when she flew down in her hovercraft right after the Jeanne supposedly crossing the river to put the mark on Annie's cheek, the only other time he could have seen her all he (loup) saw was a blinding light when looking at Rey next to Kat)
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Nov 20, 2020 21:12:42 GMT
When do you think Coyote may have seen Kat? Coyote flicked the Tic Toc, but Kat didn't fly down to rescue Annie until the next day. Maybe Coyote was still there, but nothing in the comic has shown that. I think your theory is still intact.
I think blahzor is suggesting that Coyote disguised himself as Jeanne and attacked Annie to get her interested in the whole "Jeanne story". It would explain why "Jeanne" as able to cross the river... Thank you, now I follow what blahzor is saying. I personally still believe Coyote hasn't seen Kat because I need to see more before I believe Coyote disguised himself as Jeanne and sliced Annie.
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Post by blahzor on Nov 20, 2020 21:45:09 GMT
I think blahzor is suggesting that Coyote disguised himself as Jeanne and attacked Annie to get her interested in the whole "Jeanne story". It would explain why "Jeanne" as able to cross the river... Thank you, now I follow what blahzor is saying. I personally still believe Coyote hasn't seen Kat because I need to see more before I believe Coyote disguised himself as Jeanne and sliced Annie. there's no valid reason of Jeanne crossing the river when literally not one has seen her do that in the decades she's been down there. Annie was down there for what? hours? as we now know that Coyote was near the edge at the time of the tic-toc rescue, he can be in multiple places and disguises. it's far more likely it was him rather than jaenne at this point
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Post by Runningflame on Nov 21, 2020 0:39:05 GMT
I don't think it was Coyote disguised as Jeanne (Occam's Razor, and the previously linked clip of Tom saying there was nothing preventing Jeanne from crossing the river)--but if it was, that would put a whole new spin on this page.
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Post by blahzor on Nov 21, 2020 5:08:35 GMT
While there maybe nothing preventing her from crossing the idea of her doing so seems shocking to the forest. Why else would red and aluyu be directly across from her for the test or Y's even keep sending things. She would see him down there constantly post memory wipes and attack him to stop his constant attempts.
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Post by Corvo on Nov 21, 2020 5:18:04 GMT
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Post by bedinsis on Nov 21, 2020 8:17:28 GMT
I agree. I tried to migrate the speculation to that thread instead via mass-quoting all the posts that were part of the speculations regarding Jeanne's behavior/abilities.
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Post by Runningflame on Nov 23, 2020 4:18:14 GMT
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Post by saardvark on Nov 23, 2020 6:38:19 GMT
early on, Shadow refers to Kat as "princess Kat" www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=225as though he also sees her as special, royalty even, just as the robots do (their mecha-"Angel") Kat's ascendance to mecha-demi-godhood seems widely anticipated by knowledgeable folk in both the Court (robots) and Forest (shadow folk)!
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Post by wies on Nov 23, 2020 6:39:38 GMT
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Post by foxurus on Nov 23, 2020 7:11:50 GMT
early on, Shadow refers to Kat as "princess Kat" www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=225as though he also sees her as special, royalty even, just as the robots do (their mecha-"Angel") Kat's ascendance to mecha-demi-godhood seems widely anticipated by knowledgeable folk in both the Court (robots) and Forest (shadow folk)! Kat definitely had a big hand in him calling her that. Note Tom's comment: "Kat's english lessons are already looking dubious."
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