[2457] "An impostor, I was sure of it."

[imaginaryfriend]

Interesting that he suspected Fannie instead of Courtnie. I'd have figured that the one who had been there the whole time was more likely to be the fake, but I guess he was very sure that Courtnie was real at that time. And to be fair he was right.

Link to Anthony's reaction to Fannie's return from the Wood, where he puts his hand on Courtnie's shoulder (which for him counts as flipping out I guess).

Link to when Anthony and Antimony met after Anthony returned to the Court after his adventure.

[aline]

Apr 21, 2021 7:02:45 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Interesting that he suspected Fannie instead of Courtnie. I'd have figured that the one who had been there the whole time was more likely to be the fake, but I guess he was very sure that Courtnie was real at that time. And to be fair he was right.

I think it was an emotional reaction more than logical thought. He walked in and his guts told him"fake Surma" instead of "Antimony" because of his own trauma. It had nothing to do with what was likely or not.

[flowsthead]

...Not where I thought that would go. Although this does make this page www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1571 much more explicit. It's amazing how well he conducts himself considering how shattered he is. It almost makes me a bit uncomfortable knowing how much of a mess Anthony is.

[sleepcircle]

"quickly, how can i interpret this new revelation into the inner workings of tony's characer in the absolutely worst way possible?" -- every reader

EDIT: present company excepted, of course

[wies]

So he is aware he tends to see Antimony as Surma instead of as herself. It is like Ysengrin said.

[theonethatgotaway]

Growth, growth! I see growth and introspection happening!

[Timberwere]

I truly hope it will help Tony to talk about this instead of wrestling with it all on his own as he has so far.

Another thought: "Living with her [Courtney] in this house, I thought I had learned to see her differently, as her own person."
Interesting, then, that, even though he tried, he kept being remote and cold to Courtney and only was able to open up to Frannie.
I can't wait to see where this'll go.

[bicarbonat]

Yeah, at some point there's gotta be some kind of reckoning re: the emotional trauma of seeing a deceased person's doppelgänger.

Tom has been very good at acclimating us, crab-in-a-boiling-pot style, to Antimony & Surma's same appearance (barring style) via older characters' reactions: it's "weird" and dovetails seamlessly with the real world discomfort of being compared to your parents. Eglamore has hang-ups and we say, That man needs to let go and move on with the adventure.

But seriously - everyone who knew and loved Surma needs therapy. This monkey's paw immortality butts up against the trauma of impotent (in Anthony, Renard, and James's cases) loss. She's there, but she isn't. She looks hale and hearty, but she's dead and gone. You know a face, and the person beneath it, as well as you know your own name - and suddenly, that doesn't mean anything at all. What you poured your heart and time into learning gets violated by life again, and you're once again reeling and trying to play catch-up.

Meanwhile, the girl who's actually there desperately needs to be seen and loved as her own person.

Intensive therapy. For EVERYBODY.

[csj]

POV: tony typin up his op on r/aita

[flowsthead]

Apr 21, 2021 7:31:09 GMT bicarbonat said:

Yeah, at some point there's gotta be some kind of reckoning re: the emotional trauma of seeing a deceased person's doppelgänger.

Tom has been very good at acclimating us, crab-in-a-boiling-pot style, to Antimony & Surma's same appearance (barring style) via older characters' reactions: it's "weird" and dovetails seamlessly with the real world discomfort of being compared to your parents. Eglamore has hang-ups and we say, That man needs to let go and move on with the adventure.

But seriously - everyone who knew and loved Surma needs therapy. This monkey's paw immortality butts up against the trauma of impotent (in Anthony, Renard, and James's cases) loss. She's there, but she isn't. She looks hale and hearty, but she's dead and gone. You know a face, and the person beneath it, as well as you know your own name - and suddenly, that doesn't mean anything at all. What you poured your heart and time into learning gets violated by life again, and you're once again reeling and trying to play catch-up.

Meanwhile, the girl who's actually there desperately needs to be seen and loved as her own person.

Intensive therapy. For EVERYBODY.

I actually think post-Fire Spike Renard has done well with this. I think early Renard very much fit in with Anthony and Eglamore in treating Annie as a Surma surrogate, but afterwards he couldn't any more. The truths that they laid out to each other broke the boundaries between them in ways he never had with Surma. Renard and Annie are open with each other in a way that is a unique experience for Renard and that changes everything. I think it's also important for both of them that Annie's loyalty is to Renard over the Court, while Surma's was the opposite.

Anthony and Eglamore, though, I completely agree, they still have tons of issues. Eglamore is much better at hiding it, and even he needs to call her Carver so he distance himself.

[bicarbonat]

Apr 21, 2021 7:43:59 GMT flowsthead said:

Apr 21, 2021 7:31:09 GMT bicarbonat said:

But seriously - everyone who knew and loved Surma needs therapy. This monkey's paw immortality butts up against the trauma of impotent (in Anthony, Renard, and James's cases) loss.

I actually think post-Fire Spike Renard has done well with this. I think early Renard very much fit in with Anthony and Eglamore in treating Annie as a Surma surrogate, but afterwards he couldn't any more. The truths that they laid out to each other broke the boundaries between them in ways he never had with Surma. Renard and Annie are open with each other in a way that is a unique experience for Renard and that changes everything. I think it's also important for both of them that Annie's loyalty is to Renard over the Court, while Surma's was the opposite.

I only grouped Renard with the other two because all 3 –
1) share feelings of failure re: saving/protecting Surma, and consequently the tremendous wound that causes in them.

2) have yet to contend with the objectively neutral but subjectively cursed and traumatizing etheric property that is still an active emotional bogeyman in their lives

[flowsthead]

Apr 21, 2021 8:36:49 GMT bicarbonat said:

Apr 21, 2021 7:43:59 GMT flowsthead said:

I actually think post-Fire Spike Renard has done well with this. I think early Renard very much fit in with Anthony and Eglamore in treating Annie as a Surma surrogate, but afterwards he couldn't any more. The truths that they laid out to each other broke the boundaries between them in ways he never had with Surma. Renard and Annie are open with each other in a way that is a unique experience for Renard and that changes everything. I think it's also important for both of them that Annie's loyalty is to Renard over the Court, while Surma's was the opposite.

I only grouped Renard with the other two because all 3 –
1) share feelings of failure re: saving/protecting Surma, and consequently the tremendous wound that causes in them.

2) have yet to contend with the objectively neutral but subjectively cursed and traumatizing etheric property that is still an active emotional bogeyman in their lives

I have no idea what 2 is referring to.

[V]

Apr 21, 2021 7:43:59 GMT flowsthead said:

Anthony and Eglamore, though, I completely agree, they still have tons of issues. Eglamore is much better at hiding it, and even he needs to call her Carver so he distance himself.

But it works quite the opposite way, no? Every time he thinks "Carver" (or worse yet, "the Carver girl") he's reminding himself how he lost Surma to Anthony.
"Antimony" on the other hand is quite neutral, he could do enough for his distancing simply by not using "Annie". (She probably wouldn't let him anyway.)

[flowsthead]

Apr 21, 2021 9:23:20 GMT V said:

Apr 21, 2021 7:43:59 GMT flowsthead said:

Anthony and Eglamore, though, I completely agree, they still have tons of issues. Eglamore is much better at hiding it, and even he needs to call her Carver so he distance himself.

But it works quite the opposite way, no? Every time he thinks "Carver" he's reminding himself how he lost Surma to Anthony, as it's his surname.
"Antimony" on the other hand is quite neutral, he could do enough for his distancing simply by not using "Annie". (She probably wouldn't let him anyway.)

I think that's the point. Keeping it neutral wouldn't negate the physical resemblance. Keeping it negative does.

Well, I am just speculating, but that's my read.

[V]

Interesting that not only he's unable to open up in front of multiple people, he could not manifest his anger either. Things would have been very different if he impulsively attacked Forest Annie in #2068 or the subsequent stripes in any way.

Man, he did not even use the opportunity to leave her with the Shadow Men, and that act itself would not neccesitate displaying any emotion. Although he did have plenty of time to cool down inbetween, so maybe we learn soon that the initial feeling just vanished as quickly as it came. How it eventually turned out exactly the opposite will be a very interesting read.

When I first read the word "hate" in a sentence referring to Annie I felt what "blinding anger" was :-D – but on a second thought Tony's mind cage might very well have saved the day for once.

[novia]

So, Tony, when you decided to have children.. Did no one explain to you how genetics and etheric genetics work? Were you unaware that it would be highly likely that your child would look like Surma?

[madjack]

Apr 21, 2021 9:44:50 GMT V said:

but on a second thought Tony's mind cage might very well have saved the day for once.

Maybe he put it there himself. He's always been an extremely self-disciplined person, so maybe the mind cage is a coping mechanism he uses when his emotions threaten to get away from him leak out.

Why someone would do that to themselves has a lot of different answers, not many good. Given he dodges this question Surma put to him, I'd put money on an extremely unhappy childhood.

[Viridian]

I think the most important thing to take from this page is that when Tony saw Annie here he hated her(if I'm understanding things correctly). Up until now I though Tony merely froze, and didn't know how to react due his social anxiety, but this page demonstrates that that was different. This is Tony not knowing how to act, this is Tony being blinded by rage. This clearly frames Tony's character in a worse light, but I honestly don't mind, in fact I prefer this development. I think it makes Tony's actions seem more consistent and gives us a greater understanding of what's going on his head than just: "Socially awkward".

Plus he's clearly getting better, Tony says his emotions were identical in both scenarious, but compare this interaction to this one

Also, I gotta say, Tom's comment cracked me up

This is all to say that Ive been heavily enjoying this chapter, (Even if I still want an explanation for what this page means  )

[Viridian]

Apr 21, 2021 11:04:03 GMT madjack said:

Apr 21, 2021 9:44:50 GMT V said:

but on a second thought Tony's mind cage might very well have saved the day for once.

Maybe he put it there himself. He's always been an extremely self-disciplined person, so maybe the mind cage is a coping mechanism he uses when his emotions threaten to get away from him leak out.

Why someone would do that to themselves has a lot of different answers, not many good. Given he dodges this question Surma put to him, I'd put money on an extremely unhappy childhood.

Seems to be a pattern in the family

[jocobo]

I'm very curious to see where this is going. I'm fairly certain there's a "but" coming in which he explains he learned to care for both Annie's in his own terms. At least, I really hope so.

So I'm going to operate under the assumption he got over it eventually.

With that in mind.....

I'm trying to think of what comes after that though.

Like, which daughter does he think he has lost? Frannie or Courtnie?

I'm curious if Tony see's it as Forest Annie absorbing Court Annie or if he sees it as the other way round.

I know the comic presented it as an equal fusion but if I'm being honest I still felt as Courtnie dying and becoming a part of Frannie.

And I imagine that is due to us following Frannie's perspective more closely. I see fusion Annie as a continuation of Frannie.

But it's been the opposite for Tony. He's been with Courtnie during the time skip.

So presuming he learned to see them both as daughters, which daughter does he feel like he lost?

Or, corner number 3, he isn't referring to either, but is instead mourning Annie Undivided, the Annie who never came back.

[pyradonis]

Apr 21, 2021 10:10:30 GMT novia said:

So, Tony, when you decided to have children.. Did no one explain to you how genetics and etheric genetics work? Were you unaware that it would be highly likely that your child would look like Surma?

He was probably aware of it, but was still thinking he could keep Surma alive.

By the way, I'm still not sure if he even wanted a child. Or if it even was anyone's decision (see: "The same will happen to you when you have a child.").

[0o0f]

I always figured that Tony feels a lot of resentment towards Annie, though he tries to keep it in check because intellectually he realizes it's not her fault, and he is supposed to be her father. So his inability to act like a real father to her feeds into his conflicting feelings towards her, thus turning cold. Although it seemed like the appearance of Forest Annie helped to see her differently so the fact that he had a similar reaction to her initially is interesting...

[fia]

I have to admit what suprises me about Tony is that it makes him *angry* that his daughter looks like his wife. Some people take solace in that!!!

He really does need a lot of therapy. More even than I thought. Good he's at least a bit self-aware though, whew, talk about a lot to sort through.

[novia]

Apr 21, 2021 11:33:07 GMT pyradonis said:

Apr 21, 2021 10:10:30 GMT novia said:

So, Tony, when you decided to have children.. Did no one explain to you how genetics and etheric genetics work? Were you unaware that it would be highly likely that your child would look like Surma?

He was probably aware of it, but was still thinking he could keep Surma alive.

By the way, I'm still not sure if he even wanted a child. Or if it even was anyone's decision (see: "The same will happen to you when you have a child.").

I fully fault Tony for impregnating Surma, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. As in, I expect that the mechanics of reproduction are identical to what you would expect in normal humans. Even if there was no discussion about wanting children, I'm pretty sure Antimony is here because of unsafe choices made by Tony.

[V]

Apr 21, 2021 11:51:40 GMT novia said:

Apr 21, 2021 11:33:07 GMT pyradonis said:

He was probably aware of it, but was still thinking he could keep Surma alive.

By the way, I'm still not sure if he even wanted a child. Or if it even was anyone's decision (see: "The same will happen to you when you have a child.").

I fully fault Tony for impregnating Surma, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. As in, I expect that the mechanics of reproduction are identical to what you would expect in normal humans. Even if there was no discussion about wanting children, I'm pretty sure Antimony is here because of unsafe choices made by Tony.

It's possible that the fire elemental within starts nagging when it feels that the time has come to procreate, and being utterly unbearable if it feels that the person is consistently trying to avoid it, altering the other's behaviour or even pushing them to do something out of character just to ensure that goal. I perceive it as a kind of spirit unlimited by a human's lifespan yet capable of perishing by other means, not passing on to a child being one of them, so in absence of division, its prolonged existence depends on its ability to try to avoid this scenario by all means.

[Bandolute]

Since everyone else is taking this in stride.

My extremely normal, healthy knee jerk reaction of self-confessed hatred both times I saw my daughter after a long period of time had passed. Wife-imposter! Even though she's underage and all, clearly a forest temptress deaged clone come to GET me, and only living with her disabused me of this disgusting notion

[youwiththeface]

Apr 21, 2021 7:12:02 GMT sleepcircle said:

"quickly, how can i interpret this new revelation into the inner workings of tony's characer in the absolutely worst way possible?" -- every reader

EDIT: present company excepted, of course

It ain't hard, I'm telling you that much. They're scared, confused and freaking out and he, the adult who's supposed to be making things easier for them, responds with hostility. To say nothing of what he said about how he felt upon seeing the Annie he knew was the real thing.

[ctso74]

Sometimes, still waters do run deep... and stoicism hides raging madness.

[guntherkrieg]

Anthony still obsessed with his daughter being a wife-clone. I mean, she sort of is but get over it, you freak.

[guntherkrieg]

Apr 21, 2021 12:08:14 GMT V said:

Apr 21, 2021 11:51:40 GMT novia said:

I fully fault Tony for impregnating Surma, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. As in, I expect that the mechanics of reproduction are identical to what you would expect in normal humans. Even if there was no discussion about wanting children, I'm pretty sure Antimony is here because of unsafe choices made by Tony.

It's possible that the fire elemental within starts nagging when it feels that the time has come to procreate, and being utterly unbearable if it feels that the person is consistently trying to avoid it, altering the other's behaviour or even pushing them to do something out of character just to ensure that goal. I perceive it as a kind of spirit unlimited by a human's lifespan yet capable of perishing by other means, not passing on to a child being one of them, so in absence of division, its prolonged existence depends on its ability to try to avoid this scenario by all means.

A burning in the loins, almost literally.