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Post by Bandolute on Apr 21, 2021 21:25:08 GMT
Emotions do not conform to what is deemed appropriate, they don't care what is right or wrong. You've never felt something that you knew was wrong, but felt it nonetheless? I'd find it difficult to believe. The fact that when given the opportunity he IMMEDIATELY told the truth about he was feeling is a GOOD sign. Admitting that you have a problem is the first step toward fixing it. Branding someone who confesses that they are having intrusive and troubling thoughts as a deviant is a big problem in the real world too, often leading a person not to seek help because they feel that they are a lost cause. Given the opportunity... you know, weeks or months later. Surely a healthy amount of time to be sitting on that little thought, while interacting with Forest Annie on the daily, living under the same roof, while treating the daughter you DON'T believe is a wife clone (created specifically to make you suffer) unspeakably coldly, as you have done for your entire span of parenting her. Wait sorry, that all sucks. It sucks and it's super weird, actually, and I'll thank you not to invoke my own mental health as some kind of point of comparison for a fictional character. I'd love for him to sort his shit out however it has to happen, except at Annie's expense. But no matter what he's been through, his immediate impression being hatred of Forest Annie because he only sees Surma when he looks at her is absolutely, unspeakably disturbing. His baggage might explain it, but it doesn't excuse anything. He can confess his bullshit to Donald or Jones as much as he wants. Until he apologizes to Annie (not just for this, but the near-death experience she's not supposed to have learned about, too) and actually changes his behavior, seeks some real help, does whatever work he needs to disentangle Annie from his late wife, I just don't care. You're the one adding sex to all this. It isn't in the story at all. Eglamore's early interactions with her were more awkwardly sexual than Tony's have ever been. I don't think he's attracted to Annie, I think he just feels almost insane with guilt and grief, seeing "surma" alive when she's dead and he (in his mind) killed her. That was you, actually. I said what Anthony said, that he believed Forest Annie was a trap wearing Surma's face, intended to wound him emotionally or manipulate him, and this disgusted him. Not that the trap worked. It's creepy enough that that is what he believed was happening at the time, without me implying he also fell for it, which I didn't. I didn't read anything into it that wasn't already there. Speaking of, I'm still kind of reeling at the idea of Eglamore's... alleged sexual interactions? Please don't clarify this. |
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Post by Isildur on Apr 21, 2021 21:46:14 GMT
So he is aware he tends to see Antimony as Surma instead of as herself. It is like Ysengrin said. It's apparently more literal than was previously made clear, however. It seems reminiscent of Capgras syndrome. |
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Post by sleepcircle on Apr 21, 2021 23:13:42 GMT
she's underage and all, clearly a forest temptress I got 'you making it sexual' from "underage temptress" You can't completely blame me for thinking that's what you meant. It's an odd choice of words, if nothing else. As for Eglamore, the interaction is actually a singular one—and on retrospect I don't actually think there were any more—: Eglamore reflexively fixes Annie's tie, in one page. Everyone looks at him awkwardly, and he becomes instantly mortified and flees the scene with an indistinct excuse. I doubt you're actually "reeling at the idea" of this. I'm quite sure you are pretending to, though, because you think it makes you look more normal than me, giving you the upper hand in the eyes of our audience. |
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jocobo
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Post by jocobo on Apr 21, 2021 23:25:30 GMT
A knee jerk reaction is just that.
A knee jerk reaction.
But he never acted on that immediate instinctual hatred of Forest Annie.
In fact, if he wasn't discussing with Jones right now, not a single person on this thread would have known about it. It was never once suspected or hinted at. So the number of people up in a arms about a thought he never showed, or expressed or acted on its just kind of silly.
It's especially silly because in Tony's case, we've seen him act on instinct before.
When eh first returned to court he actually did react out of emotion and hurt Annie.
And this time, he didn't. Even when he didn't think it was actually his daughter.
That's an entirely positive improvement.
In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it was Tony being aware of how badly he messed up last time and actively going for restraint this time as result.
His behavior as far as both Forest Annie and the audience up to this point was concerned, was BETTER than ever before.
Let me be clear, I HATE Tony. I really really hate Tony. Check my other comments. But I hate him for actions.
Not knee-jerk thoughts he never acted on.
Not for a "what if" or a "Could be". Not for idle speculation on what his knee-jerk response meant. For concrete action-and-consequence things he's done adn the harm that's had.
This time eh thought and didn't react. The time before this, he acted.
And it's especially silly to condemn him here because coming face to face with a clone of your daughter form place your home has been at war with for months isn't a kind of situation event he most emotionally stable people in the world would be likely equipped to handle perfectly.
Even taking his baggage over Surma out of it, that would be an intensely hard pill to swallow. MOST of the court was initially hostile to Frannie because it was insanely suspicious. Multiple people assu8med she was potentially a spy or imposter.
So no, I don't think having an intensely emotional response over thinking someone is using the face of a loved one to manipulate you and being angry about it makes you a bad person.
Especially if you control that emotional and get all the facts straight before reacting.
And also I'm just going to say it: Absolutely all the talk alleging the adult characters are physically attracted to Annie rather than just emotionally tormented by the remembrance of Surma needs to die in fire.
While Eglamore was inappropriate for a teacher interacting with a student, it was one of over-familiarity, like greeting an old friend. A breach of teacher-student boundaries because he was encouraging her to breaks school rules. Or when he out of reflex fixed her tie. Like that always struck me as "Should have been my daughter" and I'm over stepping my role as teacher vibes not" My, cute" vibes. NOT Adult-Child Boundaries of a legal variety.
There is so little evidence of that, extremely serious allegation, from either Eglamore or Tony and so completely out from he tone of the comic that it really should just stop here.
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Post by lurkerbot on Apr 21, 2021 23:31:40 GMT
He makes it very clear that he saw an impostor wearing Surma's face, not Annie's. And that was the same reaction he had to Annie when he first saw her in chapter 51, only this time he handled it better. I have to wonder whether that's the reaction he had when he first saw Annie after she was born. How did he handle it then? I suspect that he had no problem with any mother-daughter resemblance then because at that time he had every confidence that he would be able to keep Surma alive. He may well have even been charmed by such similarity, as new parents often are. |
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Post by machiavelli33 on Apr 22, 2021 0:51:52 GMT
This time he thought and didn't react. The time before this, he acted. Not only that, Tony was the first person to speak up on Forest Annie's behalf. What was Tony's ACTUAL reaction to the explosion of anger that boiled up inside him? It was to put a hand on the furious and confused Court Annie's shoulder in a way to tell her to chill out a bit, and then to say, "I think we should listen to what [Forest Annie] has to say." In a way - he DID react to his own emotions - he reacted by leaning as far away from them as possible. Those who would rake a man over the coals for thoughts he never acts upon should think on themselves for every thought they themselves have ever had and never acted upon. Every. Single. One. |
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Post by Polyhymnia on Apr 22, 2021 1:10:15 GMT
Now this page has me re-thinking this moment: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2072What was Tony thinking when he put his hand on Annie’s shoulder? Was it solidarity, a sort of “I know you’re angry, but let’s hear her out?” Or was it a correction, a “don’t let your emotions control you?” Was it protective? “This fake-Annie could be dangerous, let’s not rile it up?” Really looking to getting more insight into that moment. I feel like the climax of the Tony Antimony (almost wrote Anthony, hehe) arc would be him *actually telling her* any of these emotions that we know he has, because right now he’s clearly working through them, but too *something* to express them. Too careful? Too concerned about going beyond the bounds and hurting her? Too ashamed? Too concerned with how he’s perceived? Too concerned with his own guilt? I really want him at some point to sit down and just tell her any of this. Any of his emotions. Especially that he cares for her. So when’s Mr. Donlan going to tell him “tell her yourself?” |
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gergle
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by gergle on Apr 22, 2021 1:14:57 GMT
So, Tony, when you decided to have children.. Did no one explain to you how genetics and etheric genetics work? Were you unaware that it would be highly likely that your child would look like Surma? He was probably aware of it, but was still thinking he could keep Surma alive.
By the way, I'm still not sure if he even wanted a child. Or if it even was anyone's decision (see: "The same will happen to you when you have a child.").
I hear there are ways of preventing that. |
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Post by Eversist on Apr 22, 2021 3:45:16 GMT
I feel like this was a very interesting discussion thread to read through, and all I really have to add is I'm looking forward to more Tony Time. Like him, hate him, or indifferent to him, he's one of the largest interpersonal mysteries of the comic (at least to me) and I would like to learn more about his internal thoughts.
And also Jones is so level-headed/is a fairly neutral party (does Tony know that?) that he's unlikely to clam up.
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Post by mturtle7 on Apr 22, 2021 4:03:15 GMT
So uh am I the only one who thinks Tony's conditional social skills are the result of etheric nonsense? Look, y'all. Tony has the willpower and determination to surgically remove his own hand. Think about how that whole situation had to have gone down. He finds shady bug monsters in a cave that maybe doesn't even exist in this reality, they're like "sup dude give us ur hand and you can see your dead wife", and Tony goes "sounds great, how about you all just hang tight for a few while I carefully craft a cipher which both starts with my daughter's name and tells my best friend what to send me via my magic satellite, then call my daughter, wait several hours, and then surgically remove my own hand, cause I ain't just chopping this bad boy off with a sharp rock". Hilarity of Tony chillin with bug monsters in a cave aside, that means he made a decision to de-hand himself and then stuck with it even after significant time to reconsider. That's insane determination. And y'all think he couldn't successfully apply that lunatic singlemindedness to dealing with his social anxiety? What?? Yeah I get that anxiety is tough but this man is in his 40s, he'd be able to at least push past it for short bursts if it were a natural thing. Only way I can see it making sense with his character is if it's an etheric aspect he's literally unable to change. Which might go a long way towards explaining why he's all about telling etheric nonsense to get rektd. HO-kay, I don't really like getting into Tony arguments usually, and the insightful comments of other people with social anxiety in this same thread have hopefully changed your mind about this little issue already, but I really can't let this one go without a direct reaction.
I'm sure you mean well here, but this seems like a really, REALLY awful and toxic attitude to have towards social anxiety - actually, towards mental illness in general. For a number of reasons, actually, but first and foremost is the fact that you can't just WILL your way into a "cure" for mental illness. That's the kind of thinking that leads people into BLAMING others for their own mental illnesses, because it's clearly their fault for not being "strong" enough to "fix" themselves. I have heard plenty of stories from people who were struggling with mental illness and got told to "just push past it" - let me tell you, this has NEVER proven to be successful advice. Like, actually the exact opposite of helpful. Please, please, I would thank you to NOT promote this ableist mentality on this forum.
*phew* You know, all that aside, I really feel like you should be able to realize how odd your post is just by considering the essential nature of your argument here. Simply put, you are trying to argue, "It's impossible for Tony to have a social anxiety disorder because he's also tried to cut off his hand with a scalpel at some point in the past, therefore any weird social behavior he exhibits must be magic". Just...digest that for a moment. Is there anything wrong with this picture? Anything at all?
Speaking of pictures, though, I do actually really appreciate the picture you painted of Anthony chilling with bug monsters. You're right, that is hilarious.
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Post by Gemminie on Apr 22, 2021 4:07:51 GMT
I'm going to re-react to this page of the comic, because there are a few things I thought differently about later. First of all, Tony starts out saying that he hated Forest Annie at first. What that really sounds like, taking this conversation so far as a whole, is that he's about to say that his attitude toward her turned 180 degrees. And he's also about to explain how that happened. I didn't see that at first. Second, he says that "the same thing happened" when he first saw (Original) Annie when he returned to the Court after his long absence, in chapter 51. I had been assuming that he meant he also saw Original Annie as an impostor with Surma's face, and consequently felt the same intense rage. I now don't think that's what he means. I think he only means that he saw her with Surma's face, not that he saw her as an impostor. So he didn't feel a blinding rage; he felt other feelings, like intense remorse at having selfishly almost killed Annie, self-hatred for (as he seems to see it) killing Surma, and disappointment in Annie for her plagiarism and disregard for academic discipline. Not, of course, that he clearly expressed any of that at the time except for the third one, and he didn't express it appropriately. He says, " I almost lost my mind right there." What would that have looked like, I wonder? Ripping off his prosthesis and yelling at Annie, "For youuuuuu!" perhaps? I'm still speculating about what he says in that last frame. He'd thought that he'd learned to see Court Annie as her own person rather than Surma reincarnated, but Forest Annie proved him wrong? <dalek>EXPLAIN.</dalek> Let's look at what happens right after Forest Annie shows up. Both Tony and Forest Annie do the mature thing and start adjusting to the reality of there being two Annies. Court Annie, however, resists. Tony draws comparisons between Forest Annie's situation and his own. Forest Annie acts like a mature individual, whereas Court Annie acts like a child. Of course, we later find out that Forest Annie's able to let go of the past while Court Annie clings to it for dear life. This may be why, once Court Annie and Renard leave, Tony's able to break out. One of my many speculations is that Forest Annie is the part of Annie that's her own person, while Court Annie is the part that's based on her parents (everyone has these two parts, especially when young). But if that's true, Court Annie is basically part Surma and part Tony. No wonder Tony can't open up around her – whenever he's with her, there are at least two other people there. Or so that speculation goes. It could just be that he's still seeing her as part Annie and part Surma. I've wandered away from my original point, though, which was that Tony saw himself in Forest Annie, whereas he saw Surma in Court Annie. I would love for this to be more clear, though! |
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Post by silicondream on Apr 22, 2021 4:15:04 GMT
/] I think the most important thing to take from this page is that when Tony saw Annie here he hated her(if I'm understanding things correctly). Well, that’s how Tony recalls it now. But he always sees himself in the worst possible light--oh hi, Depression!--so it may have just been a nauseous swirl of suspicion and love and fear and parental protectiveness and resentment at the universe for kicking him in the amygdala again and again and again. Or, yes, he might have felt some genuine hatred. But so what? Annie hated herself on sight. Eglamore hated her. The Court flunkies were like “NO SUDDEN MOVES ALIEN, DELIVER YOURSELF WILLINGLY UNTO OUR HANDS” and then Tony had to talk them out of dissecting her. Even Jones grabbed her by the face for the ol’ three-inch staredown. Kat froze initially, but later she freaked out so hard it took Paz, both Annies, her mom and the Norns to bring her down. Remember her “No! I don’t buy it!” moment? I don’t know why anyone would blame Tony for having the perfectly normal reaction to a doppelgänger. Tony still blames himself, of course, because Bat-Dad must be perfect. I fully fault Tony for impregnating Surma, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. “I fully fault you for impregnating your wife!” The best baby shower card ever. It ain't hard, I'm telling you that much. They're scared, confused and freaking out and he, the adult who's supposed to be making things easier for them, responds with hostility. Er, what hostility? Tony defended Forest Annie, made up a room for her, cooked her dinner and went out of his way to be warm and affectionate with her. At the same time he reassured Courtnie with touch, and praised her for helping out with his hand. Regardless of his internal feelings, and despite the Annies’ first-glance hatred for each other, he made them both feel accepted and loved. As always. Also, how is Tony supposed to know who’s genuinely scared and confused? He’s a non-telepath walking into a doppelgänger situation. Trust! No! One! Hilarity of Tony chillin with bug monsters in a cave aside, that means he made a decision to de-hand himself and then stuck with it even after significant time to reconsider. And let’s not forget that he only reached the bug monsters by brutalizing himself to the point of blood-vomiting, disfiguring death. There’s a reason that we--and Tony himself!--barely registered Zimmy knocking off a nother chunk of his face. And he does! All the time! He’s pushed past it long enough to solve the two worst crises of Annie’s teenage life. But then people are like “Why is Tony so calm, he must be a heartless robot” or “Tony acts one way mid-short-burst and another way the rest of the time, he must value his daughters differently.” Gotham has no love for Bat-Dad. Seems pretty clear that the pregnancy was planned because Tony was sure he could keep Surma from dying “I promised I could help” is not the same as “I’m absolutely sure I can solve your family curse, now let’s make a baby, whee!!” At some time in their lives, before or after Annie was conceived, Surma was distraught because Annie would kill her. Tony committed to help them. That’s all we know. And clearly his promise was enough for Surma. A psychic fire goddess with the entire underworld on speed-dial doesn't get pregnant reluctantly. but what I mean is one shouldn't be angry that one's child looks like one's dead wife. Why??? Because one’s child is one’s dead wife? That’s a hard thing for one to accept. I’ve had moms flirt with me while I was teaching their teenage daughters. It made me incredibly anxious--and, yes, angry. And I wasn't even married to them! And they weren't even dead! It’s not even how Annie’s psychology works, and her powers are tailor-made for it! Tony has to cope without setting stuff on fire or playing every role in his own sitcom. I do think it must be something etheric, by the way. No one gets into Gunnerkrigg by being normal. Kat and Janet did. Maybe Tony’s another child of Court staff. Maybe normal children born in the Court always become neurotic, hyper-disciplined geniuses, either because of etheric effects on their brain development, or simply because they grow up trying to match the mad scientists and witches and metahumans and nonhumans around them. I have to wonder whether that's the reaction he had when he first saw Annie after she was born. How did he handle it then? It was probably much easier for him when Annie was younger. He never knew Surma at that age, so the resemblance would have been less striking. Little Annie’s demeanour was a lot less like Surma’s, too; she was still pretty Tony-ish when she first came to the Court. Anyway, I wonder if the fact that he's being so open with Jones means he's getting better at opening up, or if it's just Jones. Ever since Jones gave him that glance, I’ve figured that they got along very well together. If she wasn’t Team James and he wasn’t Team Surma, they’d probably be close friends. I'd love for him to sort his shit out however it has to happen, except at Annie's expense. Tony’s her dad, and she’s in danger. Any shit-sorting, except in brief bursts, would necessarily happen at Annie’s expense because she needs him. He can’t just take a holiday and meet a sexy deadpan immortal blonde therapist, then come back and find out whether Annie’s been murdered, copied or expelled in the meantime. ...can he? The man is literally missing various body parts because bug demons manipulated him using Surma’s face. The Court has used his love for Surma and Annie to manipulate him for the last fifteen-ish years. Why wouldn’t he believe it was a trap? And, again, everybody else thought it was a trap too, because that’s what you assume when a Xeroxed human is sent your way by an insane shapeshifting multicorporeal trickster god. Jones herself was like “yup, doppelgängers happen.” This is normal, healthy reasoning for people trapped in a dark fantasy comic. I mean, we readers still can’t agree on what happened to the Annies or why. The whole thing probably was a trap. Loup’s trap. Loup’s trick! Don’t blame us, it’s Jones who blew the whistle. |
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Post by Bandolute on Apr 22, 2021 5:45:26 GMT
she's underage and all, clearly a forest temptress I got 'you making it sexual' from "underage temptress" You can't completely blame me for thinking that's what you meant. It's an odd choice of words, if nothing else. As for Eglamore, the interaction is actually a singular one—and on retrospect I don't actually think there were any more—: Eglamore reflexively fixes Annie's tie, in one page. Everyone looks at him awkwardly, and he becomes instantly mortified and flees the scene with an indistinct excuse. I doubt you're actually "reeling at the idea" of this. I'm quite sure you are pretending to, though, because you think it makes you look more normal than me, giving you the upper hand in the eyes of our audience. He's the one who thought the forest made a Surma clone to get at him, and obviously Annie's underage, so his perceived wife clone was underaged, therefore it's weird to have immediately assumed "wife" on his part, and that was what I was getting at. I don't actually think Tony was attracted to the person he thought was an evil clone of his wife, but it is still a super weird reaction. I also am not trying to get into a "who's more normal" contest for internet points. I don't read that Eglamore scene quite like you do. More of a situation where Jones is pointing out that people MIGHT draw such a conclusion at his expense, and him being horrified at the implications of that, and also with how casually he was treating Annie, like she was his own kid. That's kind of an innocuous example, didn't jump to mind when I was trying to figure out what you were talking about. Actually, I thought of an example myself: the panel where Reynard grows a bunch of muscles and asks "does this excite you, girl?" or something to that effect. A pretty gross thing to say to a kid, but it's so absurd and insincere as a pass that it doesn't tick my skeeve box. Rey's really come a long way from where he started. And because I've gotta beat my drum, it's very striking how much Anthony just hasn't, considering how much overlap there is in the mistakes they've made. Now, I say this bit generally, because there's one ore more people who haven't quoted me but are pretty clearly typing in my general direction: I never said Tony was a "bad person," even though he's being a big creep. I absolutely 100% am behind him fixing his life and becoming a good father and a better man. I completely acknowledge he has been through some awful stuff, traumatic stuff. I am sure he loves Annie. He is still the "falling down a staircase" of parenting. We are talking about a person whose parenting is so abysmal, a prevailing theory here is that literal magic prevents him connecting with his daughter, because that is the only way some people can square his treatment of Annie with their enjoyment of other facets of his character. A guy who was so disconnected from daughter's life back at the hospital, that when he vaguely remembers Surma spoke about the afterlife guides, he fails to get Annie's help contacting the psychopomps. Either he didn't know because he didn't care (and it wasn't a secret if Surma is the one who told him about them) or he'd rather go on a years long journey than ask his kid for help. A journey that culminates in him trusting characters so shady that they convince him somehow to cut off his own hand and also siphon the soul out of his child. And afterwards, he fully intends to cut her out of his life completely, instead of offering an explanation, owning up to it, or making it up to her. He has to be bribed to return on threat of something that is implied to be very bad for her. Literally strong-armed into being a dad again. It apparently took believing his child WASN'T his child to smile at her for the first time. The idea that Tony tells jokes is enough to boggle Annie. And I am supposed to admire him? Because of the remarkable self-control he displayed, when his reaction to seeing a double of his daughter was to leap to the conclusion that it was a deaged clone of his wife created to target him, and HATE her for it? And yeah, of course I'm aware that the next few pages are going to sprinkle some nuance on that plate of red flags. It's not cut and dry, there's gonna be reasons and explanations. And then if the pattern follows some of you will accept those reasons as justifications and be very, very mad at me when I still think he's being harmful if he doesn't manage to pull of some kind of change after this. I believe plainly that he is not doing enough to fix either the situation with Annie or his mental health, which generated that thought. I was very impressed actually, a couple chapters back, when he offered to let Annie live with him. I thought it would be a good step forward for them! But now I think he just was not ready for that. When you casually produce Daughter = Wife = Hate I think it's a good idea to take a goddamn step back and get help, not bottle it up until an animated rock comes to interrogate you. Because it's not just an issue of ONE weird, misplaced, kneejerk reaction. The same thought process that spewed forth that equation informs ALL his interactions with Annie, no matter how much he manages, through sheer psychosis, to share completely nothing of himself with her. Though I guess, silver lining, that this has the byproduct of shielding her from his repressed anger. If he turns himself around and actually expresses some remorse to her directly, comes clean, and manages some more meaningful change, I will be glad for him. I will wear a #1 Tony Fan shirt. But I will not act like he isn't fumbling the ball so hard it cost him a whole hand and almost a daughter, or that this wasn't super gross. Tony pretty objectively sucks, even if his sense of humor is so good I almost understand why Kat defected to team Tony. |
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Post by 0o0f on Apr 22, 2021 6:38:20 GMT
Maybe he is angry that they look so much alike, maybe he is angry that he cannot stop seeing Surma when he looks at Annie. Maybe he thinks the same what you said here, and the fact that he can't help still being angry makes him even angrier. I regularly experience similar feelings. Anger about a thing, and ANGER about being angry, because "one shouldn't be angry about this"... Indeed, I think he realized how unreasonable his reaction was (judging by how he didn't act on it back when Forest Annie appeared), but knowing your feelings are unreasonable or irrational doesn't make them disappear. |
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 22, 2021 7:44:29 GMT
Yup, almost like Tony did a responsible thing when "stepped away".
While this skull-jumbled, he's not much good for Antimony, or patients, or anyone.
And then avoided driving or operating heavy machinery too, for good measure.
If he also tried to do something other than dwelling on it... but oh well.
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Post by worldsong on Apr 22, 2021 7:59:49 GMT
I got 'you making it sexual' from "underage temptress" You can't completely blame me for thinking that's what you meant. It's an odd choice of words, if nothing else. As for Eglamore, the interaction is actually a singular one—and on retrospect I don't actually think there were any more—: Eglamore reflexively fixes Annie's tie, in one page. Everyone looks at him awkwardly, and he becomes instantly mortified and flees the scene with an indistinct excuse. I doubt you're actually "reeling at the idea" of this. I'm quite sure you are pretending to, though, because you think it makes you look more normal than me, giving you the upper hand in the eyes of our audience. He's the one who thought the forest made a Surma clone to get at him, and obviously Annie's underage, so his perceived wife clone was underaged, therefore it's weird to have immediately assumed "wife" on his part, and that was what I was getting at. I don't actually think Tony was attracted to the person he thought was an evil clone of his wife, but it is still a super weird reaction. I also am not trying to get into a "who's more normal" contest for internet points. I don't read that Eglamore scene quite like you do. More of a situation where Jones is pointing out that people MIGHT draw such a conclusion at his expense, and him being horrified at the implications of that, and also with how casually he was treating Annie, like she was his own kid. That's kind of an innocuous example, didn't jump to mind when I was trying to figure out what you were talking about. Actually, I thought of an example myself: the panel where Reynard grows a bunch of muscles and asks "does this excite you, girl?" or something to that effect. A pretty gross thing to say to a kid, but it's so absurd and insincere as a pass that it doesn't tick my skeeve box. Rey's really come a long way from where he started. And because I've gotta beat my drum, it's very striking how much Anthony just hasn't, considering how much overlap there is in the mistakes they've made. Now, I say this bit generally, because there's one ore more people who haven't quoted me but are pretty clearly typing in my general direction: I never said Tony was a "bad person," even though he's being a big creep. I absolutely 100% am behind him fixing his life and becoming a good father and a better man. I completely acknowledge he has been through some awful stuff, traumatic stuff. I am sure he loves Annie. He is still the "falling down a staircase" of parenting. We are talking about a person whose parenting is so abysmal, a prevailing theory here is that literal magic prevents him connecting with his daughter, because that is the only way some people can square his treatment of Annie with their enjoyment of other facets of his character. A guy who was so disconnected from daughter's life back at the hospital, that when he vaguely remembers Surma spoke about the afterlife guides, he fails to get Annie's help contacting the psychopomps. Either he didn't know because he didn't care (and it wasn't a secret if Surma is the one who told him about them) or he'd rather go on a years long journey than ask his kid for help. A journey that culminates in him trusting characters so shady that they convince him somehow to cut off his own hand and also siphon the soul out of his child. And afterwards, he fully intends to cut her out of his life completely, instead of offering an explanation, owning up to it, or making it up to her. He has to be bribed to return on threat of something that is implied to be very bad for her. Literally strong-armed into being a dad again. It apparently took believing his child WASN'T his child to smile at her for the first time. The idea that Tony tells jokes is enough to boggle Annie. And I am supposed to admire him? Because of the remarkable self-control he displayed, when his reaction to seeing a double of his daughter was to leap to the conclusion that it was a deaged clone of his wife created to target him, and HATE her for it? And yeah, of course I'm aware that the next few pages are going to sprinkle some nuance on that plate of red flags. It's not cut and dry, there's gonna be reasons and explanations. And then if the pattern follows some of you will accept those reasons as justifications and be very, very mad at me when I still think he's being harmful if he doesn't manage to pull of some kind of change after this. I believe plainly that he is not doing enough to fix either the situation with Annie or his mental health, which generated that thought. I was very impressed actually, a couple chapters back, when he offered to let Annie live with him. I thought it would be a good step forward for them! But now I think he just was not ready for that. When you casually produce Daughter = Wife = Hate I think it's a good idea to take a goddamn step back and get help, not bottle it up until an animated rock comes to interrogate you. Because it's not just an issue of ONE weird, misplaced, kneejerk reaction. The same thought process that spewed forth that equation informs ALL his interactions with Annie, no matter how much he manages, through sheer psychosis, to share completely nothing of himself with her. Though I guess, silver lining, that this has the byproduct of shielding her from his repressed anger. If he turns himself around and actually expresses some remorse to her directly, comes clean, and manages some more meaningful change, I will be glad for him. I will wear a #1 Tony Fan shirt. But I will not act like he isn't fumbling the ball so hard it cost him a whole hand and almost a daughter, or that this wasn't super gross. Tony pretty objectively sucks, even if his sense of humor is so good I almost understand why Kat defected to team Tony. In all fairness, the assumption that it must be magic that makes Tony behave the way he does is kind of ridiculous, no matter how popular it might be.
I'm autistic, and from my perspective Tony's behaviour is entirely realistic even if it's also very concerning. When I get angry enough I lose the ability to talk. Even if I know what I want to say, try to take deep breaths and articulate properly I'll be happy if I can get a single word out, because for the rest I'll mostly be snarling even though I don't want to be.
And if someone told me that I must be faking it (i.e. believes it requires a supernatural condition to be real) or that I'm not trying hard enough to overcome it I'd have to push down the urge to slap them because apparently I'm not even allowed to struggle with myself in peace.
Of course this isn't identical to what Tony does but for me it registers as similar. When he's confronted with strong emotions he seizes up and defaults to robotic behaviour, and with Annie he's always feeling strong emotions so he's stuck permanently trying to not let his emotions cause a massive freakout.
It's problematic and needs to be addressed, but it's not supernatural and I'd object to calling it gross as well. Especially since, as pointed out by others, despite his supposed hatred he probably handled the situation of two Annies better than anyone else, to the point that him saying he hated her came as a surprise. I'm strongly opposed to judging people for what happens inside their mind if they're already aware of the problem and doing their best to not turn those inner mechanisms into external action.
Tony has done a lot of stuff in the past which we can freely judge him for, since humiliating Annie in front of the rest of the class goes a bit beyond "I was having an emotional crisis and shut down". but in this particular incident if I was interested in helping him overcome his mental issues (which I am) I'd start out by saying he did a good job handling the situation given his emotional response.
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blackouthart
New Member
Avatar drawn by Shelby Cragg!
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Post by blackouthart on Apr 22, 2021 8:22:30 GMT
Woof, the Tony discourse has once upon descended on the forums with a vengeance of a thousand suns. I’m not gonna lie my first reaction was...not positive towards Tony in this page, and like many, I am not a fan of his parenting. Obviously, Tony is a complex man. After re-reading the chapter, he was, aside from Kat, the nicest person towards Antimony. The only aside we get is Rey saying “now you have two daughters” and Tony looking off into the distance with an unreadable expression. So what happened between then and the dinner they cook together? That’s what I want to know.
Obviously, yes, Tony absolutely should apologize for his first appearance in her life after deserting her for years to be unannounced and immediately followed by public humiliation. Whether his absence in his life following her mother’s death was the best thing for her or not, that will always be awful, the hints that Annie got as a young child in the hospital that he blamed her (“he still loves you very much” “she always wondered about the still.”) are shitty, no matter the justification. He should talk to her or at the very least talk to someone, and not be tricked into it with alcohol by his old best friend.
At this point though, I guess we’ll see.
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Post by migrantworker on Apr 22, 2021 8:37:36 GMT
He was probably aware of it, but was still thinking he could keep Surma alive. By the way, I'm still not sure if he even wanted a child. Or if it even was anyone's decision (see: "The same will happen to you when you have a child.").
I fully fault Tony for impregnating Surma, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. As in, I expect that the mechanics of reproduction are identical to what you would expect in normal humans. Even if there was no discussion about wanting children, I'm pretty sure Antimony is here because of unsafe choices made by Tony. Why exactly would that be a fault, though? We have no reasons to believe that Surma was immortal. Her choice was not live vs. die; it was live several decades longer vs. live several decades shorter and have a child. She knew, given her family history, that it is a likely fate for her as well, and seemed to have been at peace with it (if not exactly thrilled) even long before having children was on her agenda at all. And of course she carried the inner fire, a very unique thing whose fate would become uncertain if she did not pass it on. So for all we know, she could have just decided that giving up half of her natural lifespan was a fair trade, all things considered. And then along comes Tony and promises that she can basically eat a cake and have it too. Given all that, what had she got to lose? |
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Post by fia on Apr 22, 2021 11:52:57 GMT
Just wanted to say one thing real quick, because I was one of the early promoters of the "maybe Tony's problem is etheric" –– I only suggested it because in GC the psychological IS etheric; not because it explains away mental illness as "just magic". Zimmy has pointed out that the ether is not magic; Zimmy cannot control her hallucinations any more than someone with psychosis on our non-GC world can, they just have greater effects.
Or Annie, for example, dissociating from herself using the blinker stone: the dissociation is familiar psychological territory; similar intense implications psychically; however, in her case, we were given concrete etheric inducing causes and concrete etheric concluding causes, so her 'etheric' dissociation isn't exactly like dissociation in our non-GC world.
That 'mask' she puts on and takes off etherically is another symbol for this sort of personality sublimation / dissociation / whatever hiding it is she's doing.
So: even if "Tony's problem is etheric" it doesn't mean it's not psychological, it just might have different additional etheric causes and effects. I don't think it should delegitimize any level of suffering or pain he experiences. One thing it might do is make GC mental illness not perfectly analogous to real-world mental illness - but that's probably for the best. I am generally uncomfortable when fiction (particularly fantasy/sci-fi fiction like GC) gives too neat or too concrete a portrayal of psychiatric illness, given the extensive other metaphysical and technological factors in play. (Kat can make androids now and transfer a robot's sentient consciousness into an artificial brain without loss of personal identity – oof. What does that imply for how someone could 'fix' non-neurotypical brains??? Maybe better not to think about.)
I prefer it when we can relate to a character (as some on the forum w/ social anxiety or autism or who have parents with difficulty expressing their emotions) from a variety of different ambiguous angles. Even if part of Tony's challenges are portrayed etherically, it shouldn't undermine the insights we've had into his character that much, or how difficult it must be for Tony to live with his challenges.
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 22, 2021 13:20:26 GMT
He was probably aware of it, but was still thinking he could keep Surma alive.
By the way, I'm still not sure if he even wanted a child. Or if it even was anyone's decision (see: "The same will happen to you when you have a child.").
I hear there are ways of preventing that. Exactly. Everyone would expect a couple who knows that bearing a child would be fatal to one of them to prevent pregnancies, terminate it if it happens accidentally, and, if they want children that much, adopt them. Coupled with Coyote's particular choice of words (emphasized by the author himself) and the fact that obviously many generations of Surma's maternal ancestors all chose to have a child and die early, the theory that the half human half fire elemental feels an overwhelming need to procreate (like many other nonhuman beings do) which is stronger than the human will to survive does not sound that absurd.
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Post by Gemminie on Apr 22, 2021 13:34:06 GMT
Her choice was not live vs. die; it was live several decades longer vs. live several decades shorter and have a child. Do we know that, though? Do we know that she would have lived longer if she hadn't had a child? No, we don't, because it's never happened. For all anyone knows, Surma still would've died in her mid to late 30s even if she hadn't had Annie. Or maybe she would've lived longer. No one in their family line has chosen not to have a child. We know that because Annie exists. It sure would be nice to know that for certain, because it would help with theories about how it all works. I doubt Surma knew the answer either. So you're in your early 20s, and you know that if you get pregnant and have a child, you'll die before age 40, but you suspect it's possible that'll happen anyway even if you don't have a child. Or it's possible that you'll live a normal lifespan if you don't have a child, but you have no way to know from history whether that's true. Meanwhile you have a fire within you that's telling you you must have a child. What do you do? What your mother, grandmother, and every other maternal ancestor did? Or do you gamble that you can wait longer, or not have a child at all, and live longer? There are no guarantees that you can, and meanwhile you'll have no child. |
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Post by migrantworker on Apr 22, 2021 14:07:54 GMT
Her choice was not live vs. die; it was live several decades longer vs. live several decades shorter and have a child. Do we know that, though? Do we know that she would have lived longer if she hadn't had a child? No, we don't, because it's never happened. For all anyone knows, Surma still would've died in her mid to late 30s even if she hadn't had Annie. Or maybe she would've lived longer. No one in their family line has chosen not to have a child. We know that because Annie exists. It sure would be nice to know that for certain, because it would help with theories about how it all works. I doubt Surma knew the answer either. So you're in your early 20s, and you know that if you get pregnant and have a child, you'll die before age 40, but you suspect it's possible that'll happen anyway even if you don't have a child. Or it's possible that you'll live a normal lifespan if you don't have a child, but you have no way to know from history whether that's true. Meanwhile you have a fire within you that's telling you you must have a child. What do you do? What your mother, grandmother, and every other maternal ancestor did? Or do you gamble that you can wait longer, or not have a child at all, and live longer? There are no guarantees that you can, and meanwhile you'll have no child. True, and that makes me think that perhaps we have swapped the cause and effect. Meaning, those women might not have died because of having a child, but rather decided to have a child because they were dying. |
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Post by csj on Apr 22, 2021 18:30:56 GMT
but when do we see tony's parents
assuming they still exist
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Post by 0o0f on Apr 22, 2021 18:34:34 GMT
Just wanted to say one thing real quick, because I was one of the early promoters of the "maybe Tony's problem is etheric" –– I only suggested it because in GC the psychological IS etheric; not because it explains away mental illness as "just magic". Zimmy has pointed out that the ether is not magic; Zimmy cannot control her hallucinations any more than someone with psychosis on our non-GC world can, they just have greater effects. Or Annie, for example, dissociating from herself using the blinker stone: the dissociation is familiar psychological territory; similar intense implications psychically; however, in her case, we were given concrete etheric inducing causes and concrete etheric concluding causes, so her 'etheric' dissociation isn't exactly like dissociation in our non-GC world. That 'mask' she puts on and takes off etherically is another symbol for this sort of personality sublimation / dissociation / whatever hiding it is she's doing. So: even if "Tony's problem is etheric" it doesn't mean it's not psychological, it just might have different additional etheric causes and effects. I don't think it should delegitimize any level of suffering or pain he experiences. One thing it might do is make GC mental illness not perfectly analogous to real-world mental illness - but that's probably for the best. I am generally uncomfortable when fiction (particularly fantasy/sci-fi fiction like GC) gives too neat or too concrete a portrayal of psychiatric illness, given the extensive other metaphysical and technological factors in play. (Kat can make androids now and transfer a robot's sentient consciousness into an artificial brain without loss of personal identity – oof. What does that imply for how someone could 'fix' non-neurotypical brains??? Maybe better not to think about.) I prefer it when we can relate to a character (as some on the forum w/ social anxiety or autism or who have parents with difficulty expressing their emotions) from a variety of different ambiguous angles. Even if part of Tony's challenges are portrayed etherically, it shouldn't undermine the insights we've had into his character that much, or how difficult it must be for Tony to live with his challenges. Right, I can see how Tony's issue being etheric in nature fits well into the world of Gunnerkrigg Court, as it likes to take a metaphorical approach to things. I mostly disagreed with the idea that there must be an etheric explanation behind it for his behavior to make sense as I don't find it... unrealistic. Problematic for sure, but not discordant. |
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Post by bedinsis on Apr 22, 2021 18:38:58 GMT
but when do we see tony's parents assuming they still exist My head-canon is that he is in some way effectively an orphan. That would explain why they have not been brought up so far as substitute parents while he was away, why he avoided the subject when Surma brought it up in Brazil, and to some extent help explain why he abandoned Annie; his parents never treated him any better/taught him what the norms for parent/child interaction should be. |
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Post by alevice on Apr 22, 2021 19:06:09 GMT
Her choice was not live vs. die; it was live several decades longer vs. live several decades shorter and have a child. Do we know that, though? Do we know that she would have lived longer if she hadn't had a child? No, we don't, because it's never happened. For all anyone knows, Surma still would've died in her mid to late 30s even if she hadn't had Annie. Or maybe she would've lived longer. No one in their family line has chosen not to have a child. We know that because Annie exists. It sure would be nice to know that for certain, because it would help with theories about how it all works. I doubt Surma knew the answer either. So you're in your early 20s, and you know that if you get pregnant and have a child, you'll die before age 40, but you suspect it's possible that'll happen anyway even if you don't have a child. Or it's possible that you'll live a normal lifespan if you don't have a child, but you have no way to know from history whether that's true. Meanwhile you have a fire within you that's telling you you must have a child. What do you do? What your mother, grandmother, and every other maternal ancestor did? Or do you gamble that you can wait longer, or not have a child at all, and live longer? There are no guarantees that you can, and meanwhile you'll have no child. The fact that the psychopomps didnt sent surma to the ether probably explains it, as stated by Renard. Coyote being aware they couldnt bear to be apart too. |
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V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
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Post by V on Apr 22, 2021 19:58:38 GMT
Etheric or not... I remain convinced that Tony must have some special ability or predisposition. Even though part of the students seem to be perfectly normal, you don't get assigned during high school to what all pointers indicate to be the most secret purpose of the whole city, or at least the pivotal plot point, just by being around. (I agree that Surma did, but those were exceptional conditions examined and authorized by those in charge.)
And whatever this is, that singles him out, will in all likeliness be directly linked to his mental state. (Or his parents, but that's the other side of the same coin.)
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Post by machiavelli33 on Apr 22, 2021 20:14:16 GMT
Two notes re: our boy Tony.
1. You don't have to like the man to like the character. Do I like the man? Ambiguous. Do I like the character? 100% - I find his story beautiful in how perfectly, sublimely miserable and tragic it is - and the fact that his own follies contribute to that misery (and is the definition of how it is a tragedy) is an inextricable part of that feeling.
2. Someone on the comic comments section also said something that was a cogent for me, in terms of the type of person Tony is meant to represent:
Not Him:
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Post by Corvo on Apr 22, 2021 23:14:42 GMT
From my very deep analysis of this page, I conclude that if you look at panel 2 for long enough you'll start seeing an upside-down pokeball.
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Post by bicarbonat on Apr 22, 2021 23:27:56 GMT
I only grouped Renard with the other two because all 3 – 1) share feelings of failure re: saving/protecting Surma, and consequently the tremendous wound that causes in them. 2) have yet to contend with the objectively neutral but subjectively cursed and traumatizing etheric property that is still an active emotional bogeyman in their lives I have no idea what 2 is referring to. The fire elemental aspect still exists. That's 1 down and 1 to go (potentially) for someone they live. Easy for Annie to avoid, sure, but the same could've been said for Surma. |
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