Kuraimizu
Full Member
Master Librarian
Posts: 177
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Post by Kuraimizu on Mar 15, 2017 8:03:03 GMT
Red is being a total jerk in this situation.
Everyone who helped defeat Jean, knew how dangerous she was.
Everyone there was aware of the risks involved,
and knew things could go very badly at a moments notice.
it's why they played the game they did,
and involved the players they needed to win that game.
The Fairies to run a distraction
Robot to provide a safe temporary target
Parley to actually engage in combat
Smitty to provide Luck
Annie and Kat to retrieve the Arrow
as for Smitty's chest wound
had he been taken to a Doctor
there is a high chance he wouldn't have survived
Chest wounds are very lethal, especially ones
that have pierced the lung, and perhaps even grazed the heart
Annie asking them to wait while she negotiated
and made payment to heal Smitty, with a 100% chance of survival
that decision of hers shows taking responsibility on Annie's part
especially since Annie as a Medium of the Forest
was working with the Medium of the Court
to help fix a problem that the court caused.
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Post by Lightice on Mar 15, 2017 8:07:38 GMT
Well, that was something.
But I'm kind of disappointed that we never got to hear what Ayilu's opinion on all this was. I was hoping for her to step in and voice what she thought of Annie and Red's ideas about her in her own words. As it is, she felt kind of pushed aside from the narrative, and Red being offended on her behalf without actually consulting what she thought about Annie's plan was kind of controlling and jerk-ish. Which wouldn't be that big a problem if it was acknowledged somehow, but it never was. Apparently she's OK that Red has all the opinions between the two of them?
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Post by Daedalus on Mar 15, 2017 8:07:57 GMT
We get it, Tom, Annie is a fuck-up. You don't have to reinforce that point for NINE CHAPTERS STRAIGHT. (I'm not counting Chapter 55 because that was literally two pages.) The entirety of Volume 6 is literally nothing but filler and angst for Annie. This has turned into "The Continuing Adventures of Annie's Future Therapy Bills". I'm actually starting to really doubt Tom's quality as a writer; since Tony came back, the assumption seems to be "constantly beating down on a character and stripping them down to nothing without any recovery or redemption in sight is good writing". We want to root for Annie, and seeing shit like this happen to her chapter after chapter has just. Gotten. Old.I think you may be overstating this slightly, but overall this matches my feelings. Let's recap Annie's emotional traumas through this comic and their results/resolution, shall we? Surma dies (Ch 1); Annie heads to GKC, meets her friends, only comes out of her shell around chapter 14. Narrative purpose: this acted as the starting point for the plot, and has always been a major part of Annie's character (explaining why she keeps a distance from other characters). Annie realizes she killed Surma (Ch 31-32); Annie has a breakdown, runs to the Forest, comforted by Ysengrin/Coyote, eventually reconciles with Rey. Narrative purpose: reveals important information about Annie's heritage, establishes Court/Forest conflict more clearly, deepens Annie's relationship with Rey. Ysengrin attacks Annie in the Forest (Ch 39); Ysengrin betrays Annie's trust under Coyote's manipulations. Narrative purpose: pains Coyote as non-benevolent, shows Ysengrin's instability (something we hadn't seen for a while), shows how dangerous the Forest can be, makes Annie less naive. Annie sees Jones smile (Ch 40); Extreme trauma and pain, no narrative purpose. Annie sees Kat kiss Paz (Ch 45); Annie flees once she sees Pazkat ship launch. Narrative purpose: demonstrates Annie's jealousy and insecurities, deepens bond with Kar. Mort heads into the Ether (Ch 47); Mort decides he wants to go into the Ether and Annie has to take him. Narrative purpose: unclear?Tony return, everything is sad (Ch 51-57); Tony returns, emotionally abuses Annie, causes her breakdown and personality split. Narrative purpose: too recent to be certain, but at the least it resolves long-standing questions about the relationship between Annie and Tony, constructs Tony's character more fully, shows the Court's machiavelian manipulations. MAJOR FLAW: HAPPENS OVER FAR TOO LONG (nearly a year in real-world time)Red is an asshole (Ch 61); Red makes wild and misleading and confusing (though not 100% inaccurate) accusations about Annie's role in the Jeanne confrontation. Narrative purpose: we will see - possibly also under Court manipulation, like the previous one? The issue I see here (highlighted in the italics) is that the traumas Annie has suffered over the last ten chapters or so have been...of unclear narrative purpose, and more relevantly have happened too much in succession. The tone of the comic has changed...and Annie seems to have gone from damaged-but-strong into outright depression. And just as she seems to start handling that in Chapter 57, she's hit by another emotional sledgehammer in this chapter. It's just...frustrating. I have faith in Tom as a writer, and I really hope that with hindsight this will all be justified. Please forgive me, Tom, if I sound judgmental - it's late and I'm working off very little sleep. I'll come back in the morning and re-evaluate. |
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Post by Daedalus on Mar 15, 2017 8:09:08 GMT
To be honest, I think this is the moment I've been waiting for. Annie's never been great at self-improvement. Every time she's been dealt a blow, she falls into a self-loathing spiral. I think Tom is being very intentional with this. Annie seems far more put together here than in the past. This might be the first time she hears criticism and actually confronts it head on instead of running from it or going catatonic. Looking back on the trajectory the comic has taken recently, we might be seeing Annie finally take the next step in her life. From fire-elemental losing it back with Renard, to going emotionally-blank again with Anthony, to hopefully something much more productive with Red and Ayilu. Rule of threes. I really. Really. REALLY hope you're correct about this. If this were true it would give a narrative justification, and not just fall into the same downward spiral as the last ten chapters. That being said, the end-of-chapter symbol makes me doubtful. But I'm kind of disappointed that we never got to hear what Ayilu's opinion on all this was. I was hoping for her to step in and voice what she thought of Annie and Red's ideas about her in her own words. As it is, she felt kind of pushed aside from the narrative, and Red being offended on her behalf without actually consulting what she thought about Annie's plan was kind of controlling and jerk-ish. Which wouldn't be that big a problem if it was acknowledged somehow, but it never was. A pparently she's OK that Red has all the opinions between the two of them? Their relationship has never been...healthy by human standards, even borderline abusive (where Blue idolizes everything about Red to the point of having little personality). I think this is pretty much in character actually. |
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Post by antiyonder on Mar 15, 2017 8:16:40 GMT
This might be the first time she hears criticism and actually confronts it head on instead of running from it or going catatonic. Maybe, but part of a problem with delivering uncivil and exaggerated criticism (i.e. You're scum) as opposed to merely pointing out one's problems (i.e. Why didn't you warn us of the extent of the danger?) is that it tends to mask the legit point through rudeness, anger and loudness. Civility and facts on the other hand leave no such distraction. |
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Post by Lightice on Mar 15, 2017 8:16:53 GMT
Their relationship has never been...healthy by human standards, even borderline abusive (where Blue idolizes everything about Red to the point of having little personality). I think this is pretty much in character actually. Yeah, but now that Red kind of left her simple comic relief niche and started to talk about Serious Stuff, I was kind of hoping for Ayilu to follow suit. She started looming behind Red like she had something to add for a few pages now, so it was pretty disappointing for me that she never did. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 15, 2017 8:17:59 GMT
Well, that was something. But I'm kind of disappointed that we never got to hear what Ayilu's opinion on all this was. I was hoping for her to step in and voice what she thought of Annie and Red's ideas about her in her own words. As it is, she felt kind of pushed aside from the narrative, and Red being offended on her behalf without actually consulting what she thought about Annie's plan was kind of controlling and jerk-ish. Which wouldn't be that big a problem if it was acknowledged somehow, but it never was. Apparently she's OK that Red has all the opinions between the two of them? I think Ayilu is ecstatic that she just defeated her romantic rival who was arguably more powerful than she was (and a favorite of Coyote on top of that). True, Antimony didn't know what was happening and may never figure it out, but all's fair in love and war love makes you do strange things sometimes. |
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Post by turion on Mar 15, 2017 8:29:40 GMT
How about this theory: This chapter was all but a dream, carefully manufactured by Ayilu/Blue. It might explain why both of them change mood so drastically (even for fairy standards) and a question that has been bothering me excrutiatingly: Why was there an easel, a canvas and a palette with fresh paint in [1801] just like that? |
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Post by snowflake on Mar 15, 2017 8:41:01 GMT
^^^^ Zox, is this really a criticism of Red you're making, or a criticism of Tom? I'm not Zox, but between Red's outfit, as pointed out earlier, and the glib handwaved answer she gives Annie in frame 2, I think it's clear that the criticism is meant to be perceived as exaggerated and unfair. |
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Post by youwiththeface on Mar 15, 2017 8:42:49 GMT
^^^^ Zox, is this really a criticism of Red you're making, or a criticism of Tom? Actually, the faeries probably had more of an idea of what was waiting for them than Smitty did. They were there, after all, when Annie first met Jeanne and received her ethereal cut. Observe. Uh yeah, so? That doesn't mean she's their problem. OR that they had a clue how powerful she was, just that she had etheric abilities. The point isn't that she's their problem, the point is that if Red's argument is that Annie used the faeries' lack of knowledge about Jeanne to manipulate them into doing her bidding, then her argument is BS because both fairies saw up close and personal just how dangerous Jeanne is. |
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Post by TBeholder on Mar 15, 2017 8:50:41 GMT
Not to mention that all this still feels super contrived. Of course. But this did draw attention away from Red's screw-up, right? |
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Post by red4bestgirl on Mar 15, 2017 8:52:37 GMT
I signed up just to LAUGHING ON LINE about holy shit, so many angry fans upset that their fantasy protagonist turns out to actually be kind of full of real, major flaws that impact their ability to vicariously bask in perfect praise for specialness.
Like, yeah okay Red isn't giving the absolute most favorable to Annie viewpoint possible. But she's given Annie every chance to defend her (dumb) actions, which she... really can't.
I'm also just losing it at how great this last page is. "Don't talk to me or my Aliyu ever again."
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Post by red4bestgirl on Mar 15, 2017 8:56:03 GMT
I especially love the defenses that jump between "Well, she didn't hold a gun to anyone's head, so she's not responsible for anyone else or possible harm that might befall them for listening to her" to "But also she did an awesome thing and deserves praise for it."
Like she actually did nothing, all of the actual work was done by other people on this one. How does she deserve credit for that but not blame for if things had gone wrong?
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Post by antiyonder on Mar 15, 2017 9:20:13 GMT
I signed up just to LAUGHING ON LINE about holy shit, so many angry fans upset that their fantasy protagonist turns out to actually be kind of full of real, major flaws that impact their ability to vicariously bask in perfect praise for specialness. No, it's pretty much what you said in the second paragraph in the post in that people take issue with Red's approach rather than stance. Namely, if you feel that one has legitimate flaws, why resort to exaggerating or lying to make a point other than the fear that one's stance isn't strong enough? |
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Post by kayback on Mar 15, 2017 9:20:16 GMT
I'm going to repeat what I said the other day. "Meh".
Everyone knew what the score was. From getting extra training in combat, weapons development, tactics and planning.
The first time they confronted Jeanne by accident when Smitty dropped the Blinker stone into place and Annie was trapped there until Parley saved her, sure. Most of Red's complaints fit. Now? After this much time, effort and planning? Nope.
Besides Annie was, if not forced, at least coerced into solving the problem by the Psycopomos, ROTD and even Jones.
If management wanted adults to solve it there were plenty of more qualified people who could have.
We don't know how the offer was presented to the ex-faries. Red may very well have an argument about the value of the bribe but on the rest of the stuff she is out of her lane.
Unless there is some long game being played, which Tom isn't above, I'll be skipping this chaper in re-reads.
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kefka
Junior Member
Posts: 98
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Post by kefka on Mar 15, 2017 9:22:31 GMT
The fairies were there when Jeanne first appeared and cut Annie, so it's not like they thought she was a harmless angel.
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Post by philman on Mar 15, 2017 9:23:21 GMT
I'm just going to quote this, from last page's thread, because it was somewhat overlooked, despite being a powerful source of context: The Chinese Red Guards. They had a reputation for publicly humiliating their victims by means of (far fetched) criticism. Must be a coincidence. Thank you, arkadi and keef! Am I the only one who thinks the Court symbol on Red's cap is suspicious? Someone said earlier that the Court may be somehow influencing her. I didn't think it was likely at the time, but now I'm not so sure. This is actually a really nice comparison, and explains nicely Red's uniform with the Court symbols on it. We have only seen one adult fairy-human in Bugsy (who was arguably pretty terrible employee and given a rubbish job as compensation), we don't know what the rest do. With Red in that uniform we can now assume she is becoming fully employed by the Court in some capacity, and after this chapter has now broken with Annie's group entirely, even with animosity towards them now. I don't think she is being controlled by the court, but the Court trains up the humanised fairies and animals for a reason, and if Red is now employed by them she will probably feel some loyalty towards it. We will see both Red and Ayolu again, but next time I think as antagonists working for the Court. Annie and co will be trying to investigate something the court is up to, and will be discovered by Red and/or Ayolu who will react angrily to Annie putting other peoples lives in danger again and end up trying to thwart whatever plans Annie and co have. It is kind of an interesting way to create an antagonist, but the whole speech thing did seem a little too on the nose. And I thought fairies were known for their subtlety! |
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Post by willoflava on Mar 15, 2017 9:25:28 GMT
1)LAST PANEL LESBEANS CONFIRMED
1)b)or just touchy-feely friends, that could work too
2)Also "Ayilu" sounds like the beginning of "Illusion"
Thus ends this non-substantive web forum post
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Post by aline on Mar 15, 2017 9:35:29 GMT
Like she actually did nothing, all of the actual work was done by other people on this one. How does she deserve credit for that but not blame for if things had gone wrong? Saying she did nothing is as dumb as saying she did everything. Everyone did their part and was in it for their own reason. And yeah, the all knew there was a mad murderous ghost of pure rage down there. If the whole plan was stupid, then we're dealing with four idiotic teens, not one. They've been planning this together for literal years.
If Red is gonna suddenly be all serious and reflective, I don't think it is too much to ask that she also be reasonable about it.
Actually, I think it is too much to ask. She just mentioned signs of severe anxiety a few pages ago. She talks with apparent emotionlessness, but what she's going through are serious trauma symptoms and no one in this situation would have the ability to be completely rational.
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Post by omnimedialevaeum on Mar 15, 2017 10:21:16 GMT
Goodness.
I have been following both the comic and the community mostly silently for a couple of years, but have decided that I need to say something now. Over the years, I have been enormously impressed by the civility and friendliness of the community and its participants and in the quality of the discussion which occurs herein. Consequently, I must say that I am rather unpleasantly surprised by what some of the longtime members have been posting lately, particularly the ad hominem accusations directed towards the author.
The fact is that this comic is a work in progress. Since we follow it as it updates, we do not have the benefit that later readers have of viewing how all of this works in context of later events. Yes, Annie has recently had more than her fair share of failures recently, but that does not implicate bad or "sloppy" storytelling and, in the case of this particular business with Jeanne, I would argue (from the perspective of an amateur author) that it is nearly necessary for there to be something lost.
I do not particularly feel like making arguments as to the merits of certain recent events and forming a judgement of the comic based on them, but I do encourage readers to be more careful when making certain judgments about the quality of a narrative before later events are known. I would also like to remind you that authors often grow very attached to their characters. Despite what Vonnegut said about the necessity for the author to practice sadism towards their characters, such is not as easy as many realize. I do not, of course, know Mr. Siddell personally, nor have I met him. However, my impression is that he is very fond of his characters and does not find it as easy as many here seem to assume to pile hardship and failure on them. To write something difficult (but long time in coming) like the return of Dr. Carver or the release of Jeanne only to find an indignant audience can be very upsetting indeed. Certainly, when one makes ones work public, one must always be ready to accept that and all works are subject to critical analysis. However, it is a shame to see how many are ready to jump to very negative conclusions so soon when we do not see very far ahead.
Mr. Siddell, if you happen to be reading this. Please do not heed the reactions of the readers here. I believe that you are a wonderful author with excellent narrative instincts and I have enormous respect for both you and your work. Please continue the story as you have planned and do not let these people taint your vision with doubts. Criticism is only valid after the work of art is completed.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
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Post by snipertom on Mar 15, 2017 10:35:23 GMT
Goodness. I have been following both the comic and the community mostly silently for a couple of years, but have decided that I need to say something now. Over the years, I have been enormously impressed by the civility and friendliness of the community and its participants and in the quality of the discussion which occurs herein. Consequently, I must say that I am rather unpleasantly surprised by what some of the longtime members have been posting lately, particularly the ad hominem accusations directed towards the author. The fact is that this comic is a work in progress. Since we follow it as it updates, we do not have the benefit that later readers have of viewing how all of this works in context of later events. Yes, Annie has recently had more than her fair share of failures recently, but that does not implicate bad or "sloppy" storytelling and, in the case of this particular business with Jeanne, I would argue (from the perspective of an amateur author) that it is nearly necessary for there to be something lost. I do not particularly feel like making arguments as to the merits of certain recent events and forming a judgement of the comic based on them, but I do encourage readers to be more careful when making certain judgments about the quality of a narrative before later events are known. I would also like to remind you that authors often grow very attached to their characters. Despite what Vonnegut said about the necessity for the author to practice sadism towards their characters, such is not as easy as many realize. I do not, of course, know Mr. Siddell personally, nor have I met him. However, my impression is that he is very fond of his characters and does not find it as easy as many here seem to assume to pile hardship and failure on them. To write something difficult (but long time in coming) like the return of Dr. Carver or the release of Jeanne only to find an indignant audience can be very upsetting indeed. Certainly, when one makes ones work public, one must always be ready to accept that and all works are subject to critical analysis. However, it is a shame to see how many are ready to jump to very negative conclusions so soon when we do not see very far ahead. Mr. Siddell, if you happen to be reading this. Please do not heed the reactions of the readers here. I believe that you are a wonderful author with excellent narrative instincts and I have enormous respect for both you and your work. Please continue the story as you have planned and do not let these people taint your vision with doubts. Criticism is only valid after the work of art is completed. Thank you for taking the time to read this. This is nothing compared to the kind of insane bullcrap that happened when Kat hooked up with Paz because people couldn't handle gay characters. The fallout from that actually was that Tom intervened and appointed a couple of current mods. Honestly? This is civilised. Saying 'this feels contrived' (although I disagree in that like every other time there is probably an explanation coming) is hardly rude or unfair. It's just normal discussion. It's well within the realms of feedback people give to each other in arts/writers groups for example. |
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Post by freedomgeek on Mar 15, 2017 10:39:41 GMT
Hmm, is this setting up for more Court - Forest conflict? With Red now openly wearing her loyalty to the Court and disconnecting from Annie.
I also really like Red in the full Court uniform. Hopefully we get to see her more in interactions with Kat (who isn't banned from talking to them), especially if Kat and Annie end up stranded on their respective sides in a Court-Forest conflict.
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Post by somebunny on Mar 15, 2017 10:42:40 GMT
So much harshness against Red in this thread. Someone she considered a friend put her in a situation that (VERY RECENTLY) literally traumatized her and nearly killed the person she loves more than anything in the world. From that situation, Red gained nothing, Ayilu gained a name, something Annie could have given her with zero effort but decided she wouldn't unless Ayilu was willing to sacrifice everything for Annie's benefit. I think that alone is a perfectly justifiable reason to be like "hey, I should maybe get the hell away from this person".
Let's go further, though. Red decided to confront Annie and give her a chance to explain herself. Let's keep in mind that Red is a fresh trauma victim and also doesn't have the whole story as to Annie and the group's motivations.
-Red brings up being put in danger, Annie's response is basically "but i did something in return, even though that thing took no effort, and the thing you did for me was nearly the ultimate price".
-Red brings up Smitty being left in pain. Annie makes no mentions of the risks of modern medicine failing, or possible etheric damage, or anything, she shoots for "we didn't want to get caught", without explaining the fears or consequences of getting caught. Considering the life she's led in the court, what are Red's ideas of "consequences for getting in trouble with the court"? Probably not extreme.
-Red follows that up, basically asking "You left your friend in great pain for a reason like THAT?", and Annie replies by implying that it's okay that she did that, since she didn't WANT anyone to get hurt.
-Annie brings up the importance of the others to the plan, and Red asks if Annie gave Kat a choice in participating. ANNIE DOES NOT RESPOND, INSTEAD LOOKING AWAY. Probably a massive red flag to Red at this point. Red realizes Ayilu isn't the only one who's been manipulated by Annie here.
I think Red's arguments are just fine; the manner of the conversation might not be, but maybe have some empathy and give a non-human recent-trauma victim some leeway in how they manage a stressful conversation with the person arguably responsible for their trauma?
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Post by philman on Mar 15, 2017 10:58:22 GMT
Goodness. I have been following both the comic and the community mostly silently for a couple of years, but have decided that I need to say something now. Over the years, I have been enormously impressed by the civility and friendliness of the community and its participants and in the quality of the discussion which occurs herein. Consequently, I must say that I am rather unpleasantly surprised by what some of the longtime members have been posting lately, particularly the ad hominem accusations directed towards the author. The fact is that this comic is a work in progress. Since we follow it as it updates, we do not have the benefit that later readers have of viewing how all of this works in context of later events. Yes, Annie has recently had more than her fair share of failures recently, but that does not implicate bad or "sloppy" storytelling and, in the case of this particular business with Jeanne, I would argue (from the perspective of an amateur author) that it is nearly necessary for there to be something lost. I do not particularly feel like making arguments as to the merits of certain recent events and forming a judgement of the comic based on them, but I do encourage readers to be more careful when making certain judgments about the quality of a narrative before later events are known. I would also like to remind you that authors often grow very attached to their characters. Despite what Vonnegut said about the necessity for the author to practice sadism towards their characters, such is not as easy as many realize. I do not, of course, know Mr. Siddell personally, nor have I met him. However, my impression is that he is very fond of his characters and does not find it as easy as many here seem to assume to pile hardship and failure on them. To write something difficult (but long time in coming) like the return of Dr. Carver or the release of Jeanne only to find an indignant audience can be very upsetting indeed. Certainly, when one makes ones work public, one must always be ready to accept that and all works are subject to critical analysis. However, it is a shame to see how many are ready to jump to very negative conclusions so soon when we do not see very far ahead. Mr. Siddell, if you happen to be reading this. Please do not heed the reactions of the readers here. I believe that you are a wonderful author with excellent narrative instincts and I have enormous respect for both you and your work. Please continue the story as you have planned and do not let these people taint your vision with doubts. Criticism is only valid after the work of art is completed. Thank you for taking the time to read this. This is nothing compared to the kind of insane bullcrap that happened when Kat hooked up with Paz because people couldn't handle gay characters. The fallout from that actually was that Tom intervened and appointed a couple of current mods. Honestly? This is civilised. Saying 'this feels contrived' (although I disagree in that like every other time there is probably an explanation coming) is hardly rude or unfair. It's just normal discussion. It's well within the realms of feedback people give to each other in arts/writers groups for example. Oh god, the PazKat debate. I just went back and looked at all 20 pages of it ( re-live the drama here!), and the only thing which rivalled it in intensity was when we were talking about Tony's psychological abuse of Annie came out. I think the criticism in this thread is relatively mild, yes there are some people criticising the storytelling, but I think most people know Tom is setting it up for something to come, they just don't like the way the chapter is told. As mentioned before, the only time debate got SO heated that Tom had to step in was the PazKat furore, everything else he has taken in his stride and I am sure will continue to. |
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heranje
Full Member
Oh super wow!
Posts: 176
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Post by heranje on Mar 15, 2017 11:06:35 GMT
Genteel forum-goers, Ayilu's reaction on this page makes perfect sense if you view Antimony as a potential rival for Red's attention. Remember Ayilu's facial expressions on this page and the following page? Red brings it up herself in this very chapter. In retrospect I think that (plus the verbal abuse Red was flinging at her) conflicting with the aborted confession is why she went nutz after seeing Red hanging off Antimony here. Sure, Red's reasoning doesn't track completely but the chapter seems consistent to me. I was expecting this end result, or even this plus a punch in the face. I was wrong about Ayilu's reaction. I figured she'd rein Red in a bit but considering how they like a good fight I should have known better. Now that you mention it, this might also explain why Red suddenly went off on this rant. She wasn't exhibiting any hostility towards Annie at the beginning of the chapter, and the way she hung on her in the panel you link to does not seem like the mannerism of someone who's about to go on a "you're unfriended" rant. It was also only after Red hung on Annie's shoulder that Ayilu started with her violent reaction. Red, having just realized that she loves Ayilu, sees that and also knows that Ayilu has been jealous of Annie in the past. So she decides to show her love for Ayilu by angrily tearing into Annie and declaring that she no longer wants anything to do with her - and when she does that, Ayilu pretty much immediately calms down, and goes from her destructive "celebration" of the new name to happily waving bye to Annie and hugging Red. With that interpretation, it seems like Red's rant was not really much about Annie at all (which is why it doesn't matter to Red that it was logically inconsistent), and more about telling Ayilu that "this person you see as a competitor means nothing to me and I'll defend you and show my disdain for her to prove that." Their culture is full of subtlety. |
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Post by snowflake on Mar 15, 2017 11:11:05 GMT
Red gained nothing, Ayilu gained a name Kat gained nothing, Parley gained nothing and got a sliced-up flank, Andrew gained nothing, Annie gained nothing and lost her freedom. I'm sympathetic to the point of view that recruiting mercenaries who weren't there for the mission but for the reward was morally questionable, but there should be a limit on the amount of victim points to be assigned on the basis of this. Especially since the victim isn't Red. |
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Post by somebunny on Mar 15, 2017 11:23:23 GMT
Red gained nothing, Ayilu gained a name Kat gained nothing, Parley gained nothing and got a sliced-up flank, Andrew gained nothing, Annie gained nothing and lost her freedom. I'm sympathetic to the point of view that recruiting mercenaries who weren't there for the mission but for the reward was morally questionable, but there should be a limit on the amount of victim points to be assigned on the basis of this. Especially since the victim isn't Red. What the others got isn't really relevant to the point I was trying to make, I was talking specifically about Red and Ayilu and their supposed reasons for getting roped into a situation that hurt them. That being said: Annie got to send Jeanne into the ether like she wanted, Parley got to face Jeanne again like she wanted. At this point it's debatable how much Kat and Smitty really wanted to help, but the both of them still got the satisfaction of helping people close to them get what they want. |
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Post by mrduckard on Mar 15, 2017 11:23:45 GMT
I hope Annie will realize/someone will tell her this criticism has no leg to stand on, especially the "you manipulated us all" part.
No one was coerced against his/her will in any way (like peer pressure or direct threats/blackmail), they all wanted to do this and be there for their own reason.
No one went down there unaware of the risks involved, especially not the fairies.
Did they underestimate Jeanne and just how dangerous she was?
Yes, but this is not Annie's fault: they are all just kids and they never did anything like this before; they had never been in this kind of life-or-death situation.
Was the plan perfect?
No, of course it was not: but as the saying goes "No plan survives contact with the enemy". The fact that the plan was good enough that only one of them got hurt speaks well of their preparation.
They confronted the murderous rage ghost of a deadly swordswoman on her turf and kept her distracted for the better part of the encounter and still managed to keep her from hurting anyone until the very end: they did exceedingly well for a group of teenagers with no experience exorcising ghosts of any kind, much less of the "Anger is all that is left of me" variety.
Offering Ayilu a name:
Offering Ayilu a name in exchange of her help was not manipulation: she was clearly aware of how dangerous Jeanne was and that she could just wait to get a name like everyone else.
She chose that the risk was acceptable: Annie offered her a shortcut to something she wanted but that she would still have gotten by simply waiting, she did not offer her something she could not get at all or could only get with difficulty.
So yeah: she was to blame for risking her life for a shortcut.
Andrew wound:
Teleporting would have been a rotten idea considering Andrew was seriously injured and Parley was tired and panicking, getting it wrong could have gotten them far from an hospital.
Not to mention who knows if the Court has the tech and knowledge to heal wounds made by ghost weapons.
Taking the Guides offer was the best bet they had: otherwise I would have not put my money on Andrew making it at all.
The only one that was not needed for the plan was Red: the only unnecessary person that was put in danger and only because she herself wanted to be there.
Whose adults could they have asked for help?
Kat's parent would almost certainly be against it, same with mister Eglamore while Jones stated that she wants people to acts for themselves.
I don't think this is sloppy storytelling or that there is something hidden at work; we know Annie cannot deal well with defending her side of an argument and I thought this chapter makes Red harshness well understandable (if still undeserved).
Red just went through the trauma of almost losing a friend and understanding that friend is more than a friend for her; I suspect Red is feeling guilty she didn't try to stop Ayilu before she agreed to be part of this and she is lashing out because of that: when we feel we did something wrong we often end up lashing out to place the blame on others, even if it's only to convince ourselves of our own innocence.
tl;dr: Annie made up the best plan with the info and the people she had, and she made the right call regarding Andrew wound; everyone knew the risks involved and went down there of their own volition; Ayilu wanted a name but she could have just waited to get one like everyone else.
Red is probably upset at herself for not trying to stop Ayilu from risking her life: she is lashing out because she feels guilty.
Annie can keep a clear head in life or death situations but sucks at defending herself in an argument.
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Post by stigand on Mar 15, 2017 11:30:26 GMT
Okay, so taking the positive side of things, anyone else really like the thought of Red and Ayilu becoming our newest villains? Perhaps 2 new henchmen to join Aata and Shell? I never felt like they belonged in Annie's close circle of friends anyway, at least the way that Zimmy and Gamma kinda revolve around them. They've never felt that same sort of loneliness or isolation from the world the way Annie and Zim and Gamma have. All they need is each other. They'd make the perfect two buddy cops to enforce the Court's no-fun-allowed ways. Just please, Tom, don't let Bunny-Boy and Green-Fairy become villains, their innocence is so beautiful <3 <3 <3 |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Mar 15, 2017 11:50:22 GMT
Red has matured and had a couple points, but with the end of the chapter it is clear that Red is still Red.  |
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