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Post by darklingthrush on Nov 25, 2013 5:58:07 GMT
Just curious. I did some looking around and didn't see another thread discussing this, so I thought I'd make my own (possibly there's one buried back, apologies if so). After more than seven years of reading Gunnerkrigg Court, I signed up for this forum just to see how other people feel about it.
Personally, I'm a little thrown. Which is really surprising, I thought for sure I'd be all for it. Hell, I'm gay myself. And yet for whatever reason, I feel remarkably "meh" about Kat's same sex relationship. I don't know, I guess she just didn't seem it to me. It's not bad! I'm sure I'll warm up to.
This must be how my parents felt?
-DT
PS. And of course, we don't really know whether Kat is gay, bi, experimenting, or doesn't give a damn about any such labels and just likes who she likes. I'm just making an assumption here.
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Post by The Anarch on Nov 25, 2013 6:36:07 GMT
There's been a lot of discussion about it, actually, in many of the individual strip discussion threads. Especially the most recent ones, of course. The general feeling of the forum, or at least of the people speaking up the most, seems to have been positive with a few dissenters here and there. On the label thing, a lot of folks have talked about Kat being or not being gay, with a few folks pointing out that she may be bi or merely Pazsexual or otherwise something else, not necessarily locked into single gender/sex sexuality, as well as those who feel she may only be homo- or biromantic with sexuality playing either no or merely a secondary part. And then of course there have been the arguments over whether Kat should actually be with Paz or not, for varying reasons.
Personally, I am pro-pazkat and don't care to try to put any definite label on them except "adorable".
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Momo
Junior Member
Big meanie jerkface
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Post by Momo on Nov 25, 2013 6:55:46 GMT
Personally, I am pro-pazkat and don't care to try to put any definite label on them except "adorable". ^what he said. I also think it's difficult to put a label on anything right now based on previous or current events because they characters are, you know, teenagers. I mean when I was 12 I had a HUGE crush on a guy, which is extra hilarious in retrospect. |
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lit
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Post by lit on Nov 25, 2013 7:47:08 GMT
maybe she doesn't have a concrete understanding of how her attractions work quite yet, but i imagine she's at least stopped identifying as entirely straight. especially as of pazkisses.
and i am satisfied with that. i think it is believable as well. i mean... i didn't realize i wasn't straight until i was 21 or so. sexuality can be fluid. i imagine it could be especially tricky to navigate at 14.
i think i'd be equally satisfied if kat came to realize she was attracted exclusively to women, as if she came to realize she was attracted to other genders as well.
like, i think at this point the only thing that would faze me is if she ends up identifying as straight after all and treats the relationship with paz as merely a phase or otherwise not genuine.
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Post by sidhekin on Nov 25, 2013 8:21:45 GMT
Ugh. Yeah, that would suck. I'd even prefer "and then she woke up". And that's saying something. |
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Rymdljus
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Post by Rymdljus on Nov 25, 2013 8:47:58 GMT
What would really suck is if something bad would happen to Paz just to further the story.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 25, 2013 8:48:57 GMT
Welcome to the forums, Darklingthrush! maybe she doesn't have a concrete understanding of how her attractions work quite yet, but i imagine she's at least stopped identifying as entirely straight. especially as of pazkisses. and i am satisfied with that. i think it is believable as well. i mean... i didn't realize i wasn't straight until i was 21 or so. sexuality can be fluid. i imagine it could be especially tricky to navigate at 14. i think i'd be equally satisfied if kat came to realize she was attracted exclusively to women, as if she came to realize she was attracted to other genders as well. like, i think at this point the only thing that would faze me is if she ends up identifying as straight after all and treats the relationship with paz as merely a phase or otherwise not genuine. I completely agree with the parts about Kat not having a concrete understanding about how her attractions work. When we were able to ask Mr. Siddell questions via Formspring about what Antimony and Jack were thinking and feeling about dating stuff or why they did something or other he would often answer he/she/they don't know or something like that. But I am not sure the reasons Kat is attracted to Paz have anything to do with Paz being a girl so it would not shock me if someday somehow Kat figures out she's straight. Maybe they just want to be with somebody they can feel a spark with now and they don't really know the difference. What would really suck is if something bad would happen to Paz just to further the story. I think "something bad" in this comic would be limited to some kids saying mean things. Girls who don't fit in well is a running theme of this comic. Kids acting like jerks is another. But if you are thinking that Happy Kat is running toward a Brick Wall one way or another, I think it's name is Antimony in the near future... |
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Post by Toloc on Nov 25, 2013 9:24:21 GMT
Been here since Spring Heeled #1 (~p.700). Even back then there was some speculation that Kat was gay.
It was mostly based on the friendlier moments with Annie, comments from Rey and some puns about Kat liking "birds", but it was there.
I was mildly surprised in Faraway Morning when it was openly acknowledged in comic first,
but since then it was clear that the story would have to deal with it in some way.
And having a character angst about being into the same sex and then just going "nah, false alert" would be really quite pointless narrative-wise.
As long as the comic doesn't give a label, I'd hold out on labeling it myself.
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Post by SpitefulFox on Nov 25, 2013 9:25:10 GMT
Why are people only "confused" or "experimenting" if they show interest in the same sex and not the other way around? I don't see people sitting around discussing whether Parley and Smitty are just "experimenting" with heterosexuality or whether they showed enough proper signs of being straight before now.
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Post by philman on Nov 25, 2013 9:34:52 GMT
Just curious. I did some looking around and didn't see another thread discussing this, so I thought I'd make my own (possibly there's one buried back, apologies if so) . heh you must be new here  welcome! And yes this has been talked about loads round here. check out the threads in this chapter, as well as the ones when we were finding out about the letter being from paz. For what its worth, I like pazkat , and I think some if us saw it coming a long way off. ever since faraway morning when both Kat and paz were insisting they were "not like that". there were several instances where we saw paz in the background and Kat and paz giving each other little glances. I thought the most obvious was when Annie and kat were about to share a room together, kat gave a little glance to paz in the background before saying yes. To me that said she was worried about how it would be taken, and also about who she might prefer to share a room with... But hey all opinions are valid (almost). but personally I like this relationship and want to see it evolve. I am worried however that paz may be sacrificed at some point to provide character development for kat  |
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Rymdljus
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Post by Rymdljus on Nov 25, 2013 9:47:18 GMT
I am worried however that paz may be sacrificed at some point to provide character development for kat Exactly what I was thinking. But Tom wouln't do this, right? The trope. |
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Post by snipertom on Nov 25, 2013 10:13:54 GMT
The more I think about it the more I... 1) think it is a non-issue 2) wish that others thought it was a non-issue 3) am surprised by how much in 2013 people think it is an issue I guess maybe because I had a tough time back when I was their age which would be 15 years ago now, and it seems as though, looking at some of the comments out there (mainly comments under the comic or The Butt Zone, definitely not comments on this particular thread), society in the greater world- even in the 'developed West'- hasn't progressed as much as I wish it would have in that time period. So I guess that's a personal reaction for me there. I would be happy enough with the characters having whatever sexuality, straight/bi/gay/trans/other as long as it fits the character and doesn't feel shoehorned in. I think it fits Kat and Paz, certainly it's not so different from my own experience (and they can vary a lot!) that I didn't see that kind of lampshaded for ages and ages, LAUGHING ON LINE! (What DID surprise me and kind of annoy me was when Willow 'turned gay' because honestly given all the angst about Xander and Oz it did seem quite out of the blue and out of character; it would have made a LOT more sense for Buffy to like the ladies (which apparently she does as of the comiques?!). I don't know how I'd feel on rewatching those episodes. Amusingly at the time I would have been in 1st year uni, the exact same ages as the characters in Buffy!) Just out of interest, does anyone remember whether we got this much angst on the comments/buttzone regarding Zimmy and Gamma? Is it ok for there to be 'the gays' as long as they are 'side' characters? I do recall some people adamantly saying that Z & G are *just friends*, which strikes me as the height of intentional blindness. Same with Robot & Shadow who, while an incredibly unconventional pairing are just *not* straight and *not just friends* I think the criticisms have roughly fallen into the following categories: 1) IT'S PANDERING TO 'THE GAYS'/'THE FANBOYS' <- dumb 2) I don't like it because I identify with Kat and I'm straight <- I personally think this is silly, because, you know, we are not actually the characters and Tom is not actually writing the life of some fan 3) I don't think it's in character/I disagree with how it's written/I feel like it was sudden <- while I may personally disagree, I think this is a thing that can be discussed/could be a valid criticism (and seems to be the criticism expressed in this thread; fair enough) 4) THEY ARE JUST FRIENDS <- AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 5) I don't like it because ANNIExKAT IS THE ONLY CANON <- ?! 6) GUNNERKRIGG CANNOT HAVE GAYS I WILL STOP READING IT NOW <- with fans like this, who needs enemies! possibly the most dickheaded bigoted idiotic response. I think all of that is pretty uncontroversial and just a recap --- Now I'm going to get more controversial. I think that if Kat just 'realised' she was straight 'all along' I would find that a cop-out. It's the sort of thing that (at least used to) happens on TV all the time (remember the OC?) in a way that is pretty irritating, clichéd and unrealistic and kind of sends the message that female sexuality isn't serious, it's just 'playing around'. "Ooh, I kissed a girl! I liked it, but not as much as I like penises and shopping and gossip and that guy that I kissed the girl to impress!" Additionally, I think the whole idea that anyone can be a "lesbian until graduation" is kind of stupid. In contrast, sure, a lot of people do realise they're actually bi or meet someone of the opposite gender who they happen to fall in love with <- totally legit. But to have "been straight all along" seems more like going back into the closet (social pressures/family/wanting kids/etc). And going back into the closet due to society sucking certainly seems to happen, but it's kind of tragic, when you think about it? That said, I guess it would have to be a case of how the story is told and once again whether it made sense in terms of story and characterisation. Sometimes there are people that you just don't know whether it's that you're attracted to them or are kind of awkward and weird about them or think it's expected that you should like them or are into them because they are into you. But given the way in which things developed that doesn't really seem to have been the case for Kat and Paz? They seem to actually be into each other for genuine reasons? --- I think what Rymdljus is worried about is the whole trope of THE LESBIAN GIRLFRIEND WHO LIKES GIRLS being killed off 'for the plot'.  . I think you're right though, imaginaryfriend it's more like maybe some bitchy girl in the background would be all 'EW GAYS' and someone else would give them a deathstare. Or maybe it would turn out that Kat had a secret admirer who totally started being weird, or something. Or if something 'bad' were to happen to the relationship maybe it wouldn't work out due to issue X/Y/Z/incompatibility. EDIT: I love that I got so distracted by eating GRAVLAX that Rymdljus found the trope while I was typing |
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Post by snipertom on Nov 25, 2013 10:17:35 GMT
I am worried however that paz may be sacrificed at some point to provide character development for kat Exactly what I was thinking. But Tom wouln't do this, right? The trope.I'm pretty sure Tom's put too much thought and effort and maturity into planning the whole comic to do something like that. I think *if* something tragic were to happen it would make sense, but I think it's unlikely to happen. |
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Momo
Junior Member
Big meanie jerkface
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Post by Momo on Nov 25, 2013 10:25:38 GMT
Kat being straight after all wouldn't make any sense. She has experienced physical and emotional attraction to at least one girl and therefore falls somewhere greater than 0 on the Kinsey scale. And I don't think you can count "crushes" (ie: Alistair) in the same category as actual physical relationships. For example: I had some furious crushes on guys in my preteens, but a little bit later when I tried kissing them I figured out pretty quickly that it did nothing for me.
On the flipside, my GF of 5 years and counting pretty much exclusively dated men before we met so there's always the cases of single target sexuality.
There's about a million ways to go with Kat's sexuality, but I very much doubt it's ever going to be a main focus of the comic (I honestly really prefer it that way). And based on what's happened so far I trust Tom to write and handle what is there well.
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Rymdljus
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Post by Rymdljus on Nov 25, 2013 10:53:48 GMT
The more I think about it the more I... 1) think it is a non-issue 2) wish that others thought it was a non-issue 3) am surprised by how much in 2013 people think it is an issue Yes! In a perfect world we wouldn't even be discussing this. At least not beyond the "Aww, how adorable!" level. Sometimes I think people are actually making things worse by bringing up "issues" to talk about them. Some issues will go away faster if we're not pointing to them all the time, and instead focus on something positive. I'm not finished with that thought, though. I might be wrong. ^^;;;; EDIT: I love that I got so distracted by eating GRAVLAX that Rymdljus found the trope while I was typing Haha! Good for you!  Exactly what I was thinking. But Tom wouln't do this, right? The trope.I'm pretty sure Tom's put too much thought and effort and maturity into planning the whole comic to do something like that. I think *if* something tragic were to happen it would make sense, but I think it's unlikely to happen. Yes! I actually don't think Tom would take this route, considering how well he has been handling this so far. But I can't help being a little worried since that is a trope, after all. |
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Post by snipertom on Nov 25, 2013 10:57:29 GMT
The more I think about it the more I... 1) think it is a non-issue 2) wish that others thought it was a non-issue 3) am surprised by how much in 2013 people think it is an issue Yes! In a perfect world we wouldn't even be discussing this. At least not beyond the "Aww, how adorable!" level. Sometimes I think people are actually making things worse by bringing up "issues" to talk about them. Some issues will go away faster if we're not pointing to them all the time, and instead focus on something positive. I'm not finished with that thought, though. I might be wrong. ^^;;;; EDIT: I love that I got so distracted by eating GRAVLAX that Rymdljus found the trope while I was typing Haha! Good for you! I'm pretty sure Tom's put too much thought and effort and maturity into planning the whole comic to do something like that. I think *if* something tragic were to happen it would make sense, but I think it's unlikely to happen. Yes! I actually don't think Tom would take this route, considering how well he has been handling this so far. But I can't help being a little worried since that is a trope, after all. I really should write that lesbian space elf comic and in it everyone will die all the time and get reincarnated as rainbow dolphins that are also unicorns or something |
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Post by Toloc on Nov 25, 2013 11:28:22 GMT
The more I think about it the more I... 1) think it is a non-issue 2) wish that others thought it was a non-issue 3) am surprised by how much in 2013 people think it is an issue I guess maybe because I had a tough time back when I was their age which would be 15 years ago now, and it seems as though, looking at some of the comments out there (mainly comments under the comic or The Butt Zone, definitely not comments on this particular thread), society in the greater world- even in the 'developed West'- hasn't progressed as much as I wish it would have in that time period. So I guess that's a personal reaction for me there. I would be happy enough with the characters having whatever sexuality, straight/bi/gay/trans/other as long as it fits the character and doesn't feel shoehorned in. I think it fits Kat and Paz, certainly it's not so different from my own experience (and they can vary a lot!) that I didn't see that kind of lampshaded for ages and ages, LAUGHING ON LINE! ^this (What DID surprise me and kind of annoy me was when Willow 'turned gay' because honestly given all the angst about Xander and Oz it did seem quite out of the blue and out of character; it would have made a LOT more sense for Buffy to like the ladies (which apparently she does as of the comiques?!). I don't know how I'd feel on rewatching those episodes. Amusingly at the time I would have been in 1st year uni, the exact same ages as the characters in Buffy!) As a blatant fanboy I have some lame excuses involving Vampire!Willow, who was bisexual, the season before. One could argue that there was quite some UST between Buffy and Faith. Depending on who you ask they would have made it more explicit if the execs had let them. The affair Buffy had with a fellow slayer in the comic was probably the most pointless fanservice I have ever seen. Just out of interest, does anyone remember whether we got this much angst on the comments/buttzone regarding Zimmy and Gamma? Is it ok for there to be 'the gays' as long as they are 'side' characters? I do recall some people adamantly saying that Z & G are *just friends*, which strikes me as the height of intentional blindness. Same with Robot & Shadow who, while an incredibly unconventional pairing are just *not* straight and *not just friends* I believe that someone sees Zimmy/Gamma as just friends when I see it. I remember some discussion about the nature and definition of Robot/Shadow though. Some issues will go away faster if we're not pointing to them all the time, and instead focus on something positive. I'm not finished with that thought, though. I might be wrong. ^^;;;; I like to think that too sometimes. Problem with that approach would be that the only voices left would be the 'phobes who would then claim that they represent the general public's opinion because no one tells them to sod off. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 25, 2013 12:27:18 GMT
Just curious. I did some looking around and didn't see another thread discussing this, so I thought I'd make my own (possibly there's one buried back, apologies if so). After more than seven years of reading Gunnerkrigg Court, I signed up for this forum just to see how other people feel about it. Personally, I'm a little thrown. Which is really surprising, I thought for sure I'd be all for it. Hell, I'm gay myself. And yet for whatever reason, I feel remarkably "meh" about Kat's same sex relationship. I don't know, I guess she just didn't seem it to me. It's not bad! I'm sure I'll warm up to. Just out of curiosity, why didn't she seem it to you? There have been hints about it since the beginning, haven't there? This must be how my parents felt? Well, supposing that they were gay but didn't feel like you'd be, then, well, why not. Maybe they were a bit "meh" too. |
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Post by nightwind on Nov 25, 2013 14:41:05 GMT
I don't see a problem here. What Kat experiences happens all the time. I also don't see a need for Kat (or Paz) to fit into one drawer or the other. Things like that can be pretty fluid (but don't have to be  ). Maybe we'll see in-depth exploration of Kat's sexual orientation (it looks like we're already heading that direction), until then it's all speculation. Nighty is totally fine with this situation. |
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Post by The Anarch on Nov 25, 2013 14:47:36 GMT
I really should write that lesbian space elf comic and in it everyone will die all the time and get reincarnated as rainbow dolphins that are also unicorns or something |
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Post by warrl on Nov 25, 2013 15:42:25 GMT
I think the criticisms have roughly fallen into the following categories: You forgot "I didn't realize Gunnerkrigg Court was just another all-about-the-gay-girls comic (let's ignore the first 1199 pages)". I agree. I am not convinced that sexuality or gender-identity are really fluid (not totally convinced to the contrary either) but it's indisputably true that people's self-perceived, self-acknowledged, and publicly-acknowledged sexuality and gender-identity can change. Particularly in the teenage years. And particularly in consequence of society's tendency to impose either/or categorizations on what are actually continuous scales (most commonly noticed, but far from exclusively, in failure to acknowledge that bisexuals exist). And the end of high school (also the end of college) is a common time to end a relationship that has served its short-term purpose; the next relationship might not have exactly the same purpose, and may have a longer-term purpose (at least in intent). One particular thing I'm thinking is that homosexual relationships rarely cause unintended pregnancies. |
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Post by quinkgirl on Nov 25, 2013 15:54:29 GMT
Ok, I have a question, but please don't flame me about it! I really think pazkat is cute.
Kat hadn't even thought it was Paz who wrote the love letter when this all started. This likely means she hadn't thought about Paz that way before, right? So why did she just agree to go out with her?
Please don't kill me over this, I was just re reading and wondering why that was.
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Post by Señor Goose on Nov 25, 2013 15:59:08 GMT
I'm for it, but then again I ship all sorts of lesbian pairings. (I ship Azula!Ty Lee. Not for any particular reason, I just think it's fun.)
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 25, 2013 15:59:44 GMT
You forgot "I didn't realize Gunnerkrigg Court was just another all-about-the-gay-girls comic (let's ignore the first 1199 pages)". What are Parley and Smitty, chopped liver? |
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Post by Señor Goose on Nov 25, 2013 16:14:10 GMT
You forgot "I didn't realize Gunnerkrigg Court was just another all-about-the-gay-girls comic (let's ignore the first 1199 pages)". What are Parley and Smitty, chopped liver? Das de joke. |
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 25, 2013 16:21:40 GMT
The wording of warrl's post made me think he was agreeing with that statement, not mocking it.
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Post by The Anarch on Nov 25, 2013 16:24:10 GMT
Kat hadn't even thought it was Paz who wrote the love letter when this all started. This likely means she hadn't thought about Paz that way before, right? Since Paz had already shot her down during the Faraway Morning misunderstanding, it'd be reasonable for Kat to discount Paz as the sender regardless of how she thought of Paz during the interim. As far as she knew, Paz was by her own admission not interested. |
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Post by Lightice on Nov 25, 2013 16:36:39 GMT
The wording of warrl's post made me think he was agreeing with that statement, not mocking it. He wouldn't have included the "(let's ignore the first 1199 pages)"-bit if that's what he thought. At least that's what I read out of his post. |
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Post by quinkgirl on Nov 25, 2013 16:46:33 GMT
Kat hadn't even thought it was Paz who wrote the love letter when this all started. This likely means she hadn't thought about Paz that way before, right? Since Paz had already shot her down during the Faraway Morning misunderstanding, it'd be reasonable for Kat to discount Paz as the sender regardless of how she thought of Paz during the interim. As far as she knew, Paz was by her own admission not interested. Understood! |
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Post by kukapetal on Nov 25, 2013 16:48:17 GMT
I'm cool with it. I know I've complained about the plot development in the past, but that was only because I found the way it was handled to be very confusing. I've no problem with the plot development itself. I admit I preferred cute, "boy-crazy" Kat to cute "smitten with Paz" Kat, but that's just a personal preference. The character herself is great either way.
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welcome! And yes this has been talked about loads round here. check out the threads in this chapter, as well as the ones when we were finding out about the letter being from paz.
. I think you're right though, 
). 
