clover
Junior Member
Posts: 79 
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Post by clover on Mar 16, 2017 1:24:31 GMT
It should be noted that as much as people may consider Red's judgment to be harsh or her spontaneous rejection of Annie to be uncouth or abrupt, practically nothing about the way Red and Ayilu handled things is at all inconsistent with their established characters, or honestly that odd considering the myriad of mysterious and weird ways fairies are always acting..
The least one should take from this is that this probably serves as an object lesson in that you should probably NOT bribe fairies into service and psychologically traumatize them in a way which, if they really pick it apart later, seems kind of lame and crappy to them.
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Post by puntosmx on Mar 16, 2017 2:13:22 GMT
First of all, I have to state: I HATE RED!!!
Ok, let's get to bussiness....
On second read of the latest chapter, I noticed there's a stark change in behavior on both Red and Ayilu since the naming was performed.
My current theory is that faeries don't name each other because naming is a powerful act that the Court keeps for themselves. The act of naming something or someone is, in many cultures, a divine or magical act, and the Court knows it.
By having Red name wassername, Red became more than faerie. She transmutated herself by acquiring a power no fae has wielded before: the power of naming.
And being named by Red, wassername, hitherto known as Ayilu, became subservient to Red. For Red knows her True Name, and that proves she is powerful and in control.
I expect Red to return at a later date, causing more trouble due to her newfound importance among fae-kind.
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Post by calpal on Mar 16, 2017 2:18:51 GMT
I hope this chapter ends with Annie saying "Wow, what a bitch", except this time around? The last word isn't blocked out by the 'end-of-chapter' antimony symbol. A true growing up experience.
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Post by antiyonder on Mar 16, 2017 2:37:47 GMT
Originally responded to this earlier this morning and deleted it since I didn't feel I gave it my best response. I especially love the defenses that jump between "Well, she didn't hold a gun to anyone's head, so she's not responsible for anyone else or possible harm that might befall them for listening to her" to "But also she did an awesome thing and deserves praise for it." True she has responsibilities towards those who helped her, but part of getting agency to make your own choice means that you also share responsibilities for the consequences good or bad. Don't want to be at fault for getting yourself killed, then don't choose to go on a dangerous mission for something you can get at a later date with smaller risks. Can't have it both ways. |
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Post by kukapetal on Mar 16, 2017 4:39:50 GMT
It should be noted that as much as people may consider Red's judgment to be harsh or her spontaneous rejection of Annie to be uncouth or abrupt, practically nothing about the way Red and Ayilu handled things is at all inconsistent with their established characters, or honestly that odd considering the myriad of mysterious and weird ways fairies are always acting.. The least one should take from this is that this probably serves as an object lesson in that you should probably NOT bribe fairies into service and psychologically traumatize them in a way which, if they really pick it apart later, seems kind of lame and crappy to them. See, despite how unpleasant, annoying and just plain nasty I found Red in the past, I always gave her the benefit of the doubt because she was a fairy and they seem to think/behave differently and have different morals than humans. But if Red understands human morals enough to judge Annie for violating them, then she herself is now qualified to be judged by them. And she's a nasty jerk. Seriously, every single appearance of hers since she became a human has ended with me wanting to see her get punched in the nose. And now I can say she finally, definitely, fully deserves it  |
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Post by TBeholder on Mar 16, 2017 4:47:32 GMT
I signed up just to LAUGHING ON LINE about holy shit, so many angry You are super smart and triple awesome!  I am curious to see how this attitude reflects in the rest of foley house. Why would it? They have nothing to do with Red and her great big "secret". |
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Post by Deepbluediver on Mar 16, 2017 5:56:22 GMT
So much harshness against Red in this thread. I can't speak for everyone else, but it's not Red I dislike, so much as the direction the story seems to be taking. Maybe there will be some long-term payoff; Tom is usually a pretty good writer. But right now, this is not an enjoyable moment for any reason that I could see, and more importantly I can't see what this is supposed to be leading to. Which we might be more sympathetic toward if Red had (A) expressed any resistance to the plan BEFORE it all went down, and (B) not acted like an excitable little puppy during the first half of the encounter. Unless Annie & Co. totally mis-represented the danger, it's like she's blaming Annie for not having foresight that she herself lacks. First of all, Annie hasn't had any longer to digest what happened than Red has had. Second, she (Red) opened with an attack, which hardly seems conducive to letting someone present a different point of view, and ended by ending any chance of dialog permanently. That's not how commerce works- the thing being offered up is ALWAYS worth less to the offerer than to the offeree from the perspective of the offerer, otherwise no exchange would ever be conducted except at the point of a gun. Red might be experiencing a case of buyer's remorse, but just because she changed her mind might after the fact is not the fault of the seller (Annie), but the fault (Red/Alyilu) of the buyer for not doing due-diligence. That's what happens when you put someone on the defensive, they tend to react instinctively instead of logically or objectively. Annie made a deal with Amut to for something that we're still not clear on (most people assume it means being a pyscopomp, but we don't know for certain) to have Smitty magically healed instantly at no cost to anyone but herself, instead of having him ported to a doctor which almost certainly would have taken longer to remove the pain, heal him up, and heal him less satisfactorily. And the former was the WRONG choice? Maybe this is just a case of the Fairies having a different perspective, but that's the kind of tradeoffs humans make the all the time. So AT BEST it comes off as Red not understanding cost-benefit analysis and the concept of acceptable risk. Again, we have no idea what Annie & Co said to get Ayilu to agree to this. If it was relevant though, why weren't we shown it? What I'm reminded of is a review of one the Spider-man games where Spidey is fighting either Carnage or Venom or someone, and they give him the "we're so alike line" and Spidey just goes quiet and mutters something to himself like "maybe we are". And Yahtzee's response was "no we are fucking not! you are a serial murder and I am a wisecracking superhero!" His point was that just having your hero stand there and accept people making bad arguments about them is bad writing. In this case, a character who has been used almost exclusively for comic relief and has never shown the slightest consideration or empathy for anyone else is delivering a serious lecture about ethics and responsibility to our protagonist ON BEHALF OF SOMEONE ELSE. And to a lot of readers, that seems to come across as hypocritically and poorly framed. If we're missing something that would put this in a different context, why didn't we see it? |
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Post by red4bestgirl on Mar 16, 2017 6:09:50 GMT
I'm not sure if y'all are deeper into the salt or the kool aid at this point. Salty koolaid.
Red wasn't lecturing Annie. She was confronting her with super legitimate concerns about her behavior that had literally just traumatized her and almost killed her one true love. And even then she was calm and gave Annie every chance to explain and defend herself.
The problem is that Annie's rationales were shit and obviously shit and everyone in the comic and reading it knew they were shit.
Y'all can keep inventing some hypothetical alternative Annie that really thought through everything she did and had good reasons for everything, but the actual Annie in the comics all but admitted that she wasn't really behaving responsibly or considerately towards her friends that she was pushing into danger.
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Post by red4bestgirl on Mar 16, 2017 6:13:35 GMT
Originally responded to this earlier this morning and deleted it since I didn't feel I gave it my best response. I especially love the defenses that jump between "Well, she didn't hold a gun to anyone's head, so she's not responsible for anyone else or possible harm that might befall them for listening to her" to "But also she did an awesome thing and deserves praise for it." True she has responsibilities towards those who helped her, but part of getting agency to make your own choice means that you also share responsibilities for the consequences good or bad. Don't want to be at fault for getting yourself killed, then don't choose to go on a dangerous mission for something you can get at a later date with smaller risks. Can't have it both ways. She could have had it at any date. Literally if Annie viewed Bluayilu as a friend and worthy person who deserved a name and that this would be good for her, she could have named her at any point in time. Instead she used this thing she knew <blue> desperately wanted to manipulate her into doing something extremely dangerous. It is actually staggering beyond all reason that people are desperately trying to rationalize and pretend that this wasn't a deeply, deeply, deeply shitty thing to do. |
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Post by red4bestgirl on Mar 16, 2017 6:14:48 GMT
Like if I know someone is desperately trying to pay off their college debts or whatev and I bribe them to do something dangerous and illegal, how the hell is that not exploitative? How is that not inconsiderate and gross and manipulative and just bad, evil behavior?
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Post by red4bestgirl on Mar 16, 2017 6:17:14 GMT
Maybe don't live your life so vicariously through a protagonist that you need them to be a perfect snowflake that's always justified in every situation.
Annie's been careless, inconsiderate, and irresponsible and has only gotten away with it through luck and other peoples' interventions.
I know y'all are used to rationalizing this shit for protagonists because that's what protagonists are for but that doesn't make it right.
Shit, like at least Harry Potter actively tried to discourage the other kids from rushing into danger. He wasn't like, "Hey, Neville, if you fight Voldemort for me I'll restore your parents' sanity."
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Post by Deepbluediver on Mar 16, 2017 6:25:40 GMT
I'm not sure if y'all are deeper into the salt or the kool aid at this point. Salty koolaid. Red wasn't lecturing Annie. She was confronting her with super legitimate concerns about her behavior that had literally just traumatized her and almost killed her one true love. And even then she was calm and gave Annie every chance to explain and defend herself. The problem is that Annie's rationales were shit and obviously shit and everyone in the comic and reading it knew they were shit. Y'all can keep inventing some hypothetical alternative Annie that really thought through everything she did and had good reasons for everything, but the actual Annie in the comics all but admitted that she wasn't really behaving responsibly or considerately towards her friends that she was pushing into danger. If you read my post, that's not really the tact that I took. There are criticisms to be made here, but it seems like the method of their delivery is very poorly done. Maybe don't live your life so vicariously through a protagonist that you need them to be a perfect snowflake that's always justified in every situation. Ok, that's both unnecessary and insulting. Do you normally go around and for people to be upset at something in a story and then laugh at them for being emotionally invested? |
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Post by red4bestgirl on Mar 16, 2017 6:39:20 GMT
I'm not sure if y'all are deeper into the salt or the kool aid at this point. Salty koolaid. Red wasn't lecturing Annie. She was confronting her with super legitimate concerns about her behavior that had literally just traumatized her and almost killed her one true love. And even then she was calm and gave Annie every chance to explain and defend herself. The problem is that Annie's rationales were shit and obviously shit and everyone in the comic and reading it knew they were shit. Y'all can keep inventing some hypothetical alternative Annie that really thought through everything she did and had good reasons for everything, but the actual Annie in the comics all but admitted that she wasn't really behaving responsibly or considerately towards her friends that she was pushing into danger. If you read my post, that's not really the tact that I took. There are criticisms to be made here, but it seems like the method of their delivery is very poorly done. Maybe don't live your life so vicariously through a protagonist that you need them to be a perfect snowflake that's always justified in every situation. Ok, that's both unnecessary and insulting. Do you normally go around and for people to be upset at something in a story and then laugh at them for being emotionally invested? Yes Yes if you are so emotionally invested in a character that you rationalize and ignore them doing shitty things and being shitty to other character then yes, I do in fact go around laughing at that. I guess you can make a pitch if you want that you keep this rationalization bias limited strictly to comic books and what not, but I'm not gonna believe you and I don't think anyone else will. And if all you have to offer is basically you didn't like Red's tone, well...  "I think Red could have been nicer in pointing out the shittiness of the behavior of the chick that just almost killed her one true love through callousness and carelessness" would be a terrible argument even if it was true. As it is it's shocking how non-angry and non-rude Red was. Red wasn't being mean at all. She didn't say untrue things or jump to conclusions. She gave Annie lots of opportunity to explain herself. The problem is that Red was being honest and observant which are like being insulting to people who have been shitty and don't like having that pointed out. |
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Post by Deepbluediver on Mar 16, 2017 6:46:07 GMT
Yes if you are so emotionally invested in a character that you rationalize and ignore them doing shitty things and being shitty to other character then yes, I do in fact go around laughing at that. You're still missing the point entirely. It's not the message I object to but the method of it's delivery. See my comments about bad writing. Actually yes, when a character acts entirely OUT OF CHARACTER it tends to strike people as odd, at least. I will remind you that Red didn't appear to ask her "one true love"'s opinion or preference about any of this, she just makes the decision for both her and the character that has no characterization beyond "Red's adoring fangirl", which is ironically the most in-character bit of this whole spiel. No, she really didn't. She ambushed Annie out of the blue and when she didn't get a response that satisfied her, she ended any further discussion forever. Again, see the "out of character" issue. Also the arguments she makes are poor at best- do you really think that Smitty would have gotten better, faster, if he'd be teleported to a court doctor than if he was magically healed instantly? |
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Post by red4bestgirl on Mar 16, 2017 6:53:23 GMT
"Didn't get a response that satisfied her" is a weird way of spelling, "Listened to Annie explain that she really had been acting selfishly, and manipulatively and with a reckless disregard for others' autonomy and safety."
I have literally no fucking clue at all how good the Court would have been at healing Smitty. Neither as far as I know does Annie, who has no demonstrated medical expertise whatsoever. Neither does Red probably.
When asked about this question, Annie notably failed to say that her motivation was concern for Smitty's health or comfort; instead she flatly admitted that she just didn't want to get into trouble. Pretending that her motivations were something other than what they were, and then saying that it's "out of character" and "bad writing" that the universe of the comic doesn't bend to conform to your made up alternate narrative, isn't really reasonable or sane as criticisms go.
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Post by red4bestgirl on Mar 16, 2017 6:54:17 GMT
Like there's just nothing more staggering than people who think it's unfair to judge others based on their actual words and deeds. Like you think because you like a character as a reader, that there's some other mystical abstract quality that people in-universe should be judging them on.
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Post by Deepbluediver on Mar 16, 2017 6:55:02 GMT
"Didn't get a response that satisfied her" is a weird way of spelling, "Listened to Annie explain that she really had been acting selfishly, and manipulatively and with a reckless disregard for others' autonomy and safety." I have literally no fucking clue at all how good the Court would have been at healing Smitty. Neither as far as I know does Annie, who has no demonstrated medical expertise whatsoever. Neither does Red probably. When asked about this question, Annie notably failed to say that her motivation was concern for Smitty's health or comfort; instead she flatly admitted that she just didn't want to get into trouble. Pretending that her motivations were something other than what they were, and then saying that it's "out of character" and "bad writing" that the universe of the comic doesn't bend to conform to your made up alternate narrative, isn't really reasonable or sane as criticisms go. You seem to be as enamored with Red as you think the rest of us are with Annie- taking everything she says as the most accurate interpretation and disregarding any concerns about timing or other motivations. |
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Post by tc on Mar 16, 2017 6:59:53 GMT
In between Red's new uniform (with Bismuth Logo Cap), her abrupt change in personality and the disproportionate (if arguably somewhat understandable) verbal and emotional beatdown she just gave Annie, I can't help but detect a significant whiff of Court shenanigans going on here, and I'm sure I'm not the only one...
They've been trying to rein Annie in from the beginning, most recently by refusing her the Court medium position (thwarted by Coyote) and manipulating Tony (and in doing so pushing him as far as he's willing to go - it's heavily implied that they don't want him to walk away). Whether they know about the latest adventure or not, they can't kick Annie out without breaking the deal they made with Tony, and so the only way they can get to her now is via her friends.
There's something about Annie's being a combination of Surma's power and impulsiveness plus Tony's intelligence and single-mindedness that scares the shit out of the Court authorities - I wonder what it is?
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Post by red4bestgirl on Mar 16, 2017 7:03:03 GMT
Oh please. 1) Uh yeah obviously, did you see my username. 2) This is a completely irrelevant ad hominem tu quoque. It doesn't matter that I recognize the clear and objective fact that Red is the best character in the comic and you don't, because I'm not engaging in bullshit rationalization to justify Red's shitty behavior. Like I might if we were arguing about how exactly faerie romance works/how health relationship dynamics are mirrored therein, but that's not what's happening now. Literally the only thing people are whinging about Red doing is simply holding Annie fucking accountable for her own deeds, in her own words. Red said, "Wow, this stuff you did seems kind of fucked up," Annie said, "Wait, no, I did it because of <shitty reasons that are fucked up>" and Red said "Oh wow so that is fucked up after all." And Annie was like  oic. And then half the reader base flipped their shit because they don't like their vicariously lived through protagonist being held responsible for things she is responsible for. |
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Post by somebunny on Mar 16, 2017 7:08:26 GMT
Actually yes, when a character acts entirely OUT OF CHARACTER it tends to strike people as odd, at least. I will remind you that Red didn't appear to ask her "one true love"'s opinion or preference about any of this, she just makes the decision for both her and the character that has no characterization beyond "Red's adoring fangirl", which is ironically the most in-character bit of this whole spiel. Red acts out of character. Red does not act unbelievably out of character. Red's change in behavior, to me, is perfectly believable for someone who was subject to trauma and has been constantly focused on it since then. Red cannot brush this off like anything else, she is forced to confront it and such a jarring event is going to cause some serious inner change. We also don't know how much Ayilu is in on this, perhaps her and Red discussed the possibility of cutting off Annie beforehand. We can't really say either way. |
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Post by rafk on Mar 16, 2017 7:12:19 GMT
During the aftermath of the Jeanne battle I thought the community was pretty united on how reckless the kids were and how Annie acted in the immediate aftermath, surprised how many people here are upset at Red for putting this all in Annie's face. She might not be expressing it perfectly, and Parley and Smitty also deserve this bollocking (Kat too, but Kat is kind of a doormat for Annie quite a lot and that would be mean), but that's not to say Annie doesn't need to have all this raised to her, including her use of the name to manipulate the faeries. It doesn't matter that they have some responsibility too. Somehow I suspect Annie will see Red and Ayilu again, though. As for people complaining about this coming from Red: 1) The reason for her epiphany is both well explained and believable. 2) You're as guilty as Annie of thinking of Red as a 2 dimensional comic relief character there to suit Annie, rather than a being capable of deeper thoughts. Great chapter. Now the situation was imperfect, rushed, and in many ways very poorly handled, but here and now that's overshadowed by the extremely flawed and short sighted criticisms Red is giving to Annie while also completely dodging any personal responsibility for going with them and allowing her waifu to come with. Deeper thoughts are not evidenced by thoughtless finger pointing, and so far that's all Ref has done. It's not thoughtless, it's no less valid for Red's failure to take personal responsibility (hey, she hasn't matured THAT much, very believable) and further - 1 for use of word "waifu". |
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Post by rafk on Mar 16, 2017 7:16:40 GMT
2) You're as guilty as Annie of thinking of Red as a 2 dimensional comic relief character there to suit Annie, rather than a being capable of deeper thoughts. We've never been given any reason to see Red as anything less than an annoying, selfish jerk. Every time she's shown up in this comic that's what she's been. And the mistake (in this comic anyway, because it is well written) is to assume that selfish jerk is all she is and all she ever can be. |
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Post by Deepbluediver on Mar 16, 2017 7:17:52 GMT
Oh please. 1) Uh yeah obviously, did you see my username. 2) This is a completely irrelevant ad hominem tu quoque. It doesn't matter that I recognize the clear and objective fact that Red is the best character in the comic and you don't, because I'm not engaging in bullshit rationalization to justify Red's shitty behavior. Like I might if we were arguing about how exactly faerie romance works/how health relationship dynamics are mirrored therein, but that's not what's happening now. Literally the only thing people are whinging about Red doing is simply holding Annie fucking accountable for her own deeds, in her own words. Red said, "Wow, this stuff you did seems kind of fucked up," Annie said, "Wait, no, I did it because of <shitty reasons that are fucked up>" and Red said "Oh wow so that is fucked up after all." And Annie was like oic. And then half the reader base flipped their shit because they don't like their vicariously lived through protagonist being held responsible for things she is responsible for. You keep claiming that the readers are only upset because we're "living vicariously through Annie"- that seems pretty ad hominem to me. And what exactly is Red "holding Annie accountable" for here? What long term repercussions are there to anyone besides Annie? And how exactly was Annie supposed to benefit from this situation? If you want to look at this in the meta-sense, I'm going to compare it to the last time the "Annie-fan" claim got thrown around a lot, the introduction of Annie's dad, Tony. Since you weren't here, the introduction of adult Tony had a lot of people screaming for blood because of the way the he treated Annie. Except the difference was he took her to task for things that she had done that mainly benefited no one but herself, and eventually his backstory was explained a bit. While it doesn't necessarily justify his actions, it explains what led to them in a way that seems believable. I find Tony unlikable as a character, mainly because he's incompetent as a parent, but I liked that part of the story. This? It feels like a less well written retread of that. It's as if the author is saying "well, Annie STILL hasn't learned her lesson so we're going to go through this whole dog an pony show again." Except instead of a new character who gets more sympathetic or at least understood over time, the sermon is being poorly delivered by an old character who was only marginally likable as comic relief, and is getting less interesting (IMO) as the story goes on. |
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Post by red4bestgirl on Mar 16, 2017 7:19:03 GMT
Also I like the next-tier rationalizations, like the people who realized that obviously what Annie did with Ayilu was really fucked up and manipulative and abusive, and figured they couldn't justify that, so were like, "Well, Red started off making some good points, but then she just got abusive and ignored context" and blah blah blah.
Mother fuckers, no she didn't.
She confronted Annie about the thing that most hurt her/her one true love, and then Annie kept making fucking excuses instead of apologizing.
Now if that were me I would have started with, "You exploited and put the person I love most in the world in danger, fuck off and never talk to me again you sack of shit." And that would have been completely justified! Red would have been totally justified just leading off with "Fuck off, Annie."
But no, she tried to give Annie every opportunity to explain or take responsibility and she just kept making up bullshit excuses.
And never once apologizing for her bad behavior at all.
Yeah, Red is totally justified in not wanting her around after that, that's shitty and abusive behavior.
Shit I do like Annie but this is a well-deserved wake-up call.
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Post by red4bestgirl on Mar 16, 2017 7:22:34 GMT
Oh please. 1) Uh yeah obviously, did you see my username. 2) This is a completely irrelevant ad hominem tu quoque. It doesn't matter that I recognize the clear and objective fact that Red is the best character in the comic and you don't, because I'm not engaging in bullshit rationalization to justify Red's shitty behavior. Like I might if we were arguing about how exactly faerie romance works/how health relationship dynamics are mirrored therein, but that's not what's happening now. Literally the only thing people are whinging about Red doing is simply holding Annie fucking accountable for her own deeds, in her own words. Red said, "Wow, this stuff you did seems kind of fucked up," Annie said, "Wait, no, I did it because of <shitty reasons that are fucked up>" and Red said "Oh wow so that is fucked up after all." And Annie was like oic. And then half the reader base flipped their shit because they don't like their vicariously lived through protagonist being held responsible for things she is responsible for. You keep claiming that the readers are only upset because we're "living vicariously through Annie"- that seems pretty ad hominem to me. And what exactly is Red "holding Annie accountable" for here? What long term repercussions are there to anyone besides Annie? And how exactly was Annie supposed to benefit from this situation? If you want to look at this in the meta-sense, I'm going to compare it to the last time the "Annie-fan" claim got thrown around a lot, the introduction of Annie's dad, Tony. Since you weren't here, the introduction of adult Tony had a lot of people screaming for blood because of the way the he treated Annie. Except the difference was he took her to task for things that she had done that mainly benefited no one but herself, and eventually his backstory was explained a bit. While it doesn't necessarily justify his actions, it explains what led to them in a way that seems believable. I find Tony unlikable as a character, mainly because he's incompetent as a parent, but I liked that part of the story. This? It feels like a less well written retread of that. It's as if the author is saying "well, Annie STILL hasn't learned her lesson so we're going to go through this whole dog an pony show again." Except instead of a new character who gets more sympathetic or at least understood over time, the sermon is being poorly delivered by an old character who was only marginally likable as comic relief, and is getting less interesting (IMO) as the story goes on. What long term repercussions? Are you serious? Red is fucking traumatized. She wakes up in the middle of the night having nightmares That's ignoring that the risk doesn't retroactively not exist just because they got away with it What repercussions, are you mother fuckers serious here or what Also man what are you kidding. Do you just have no idea how moral culpability works. Tony was her fucking father who abandoned her. He doesn't have any right to criticize her for bad shit she got up to while living life as a functional orphan, because that behavior is literally his direct responsibility as an adult and her parent. This is not at all like Red's position! Are you people just trolling me here or do you actually believe this stuff |
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Post by rafk on Mar 16, 2017 7:22:55 GMT
I love Annie, but you people take it to new heights. I doubt you would be so apologetic of a person who put *your* loved one in mortal danger. The only possible problem(s) I saw with this chapter is how Red realizes that names are worthless. Seems weird someone who (I presume) grew up with the idea of a name being something terribly important, disregards it so casually. But the more I think about it, the more I actually like what Tom's trying to do here: It's like a statement that out upbringing doesn't define us, and how a new culture (where names aren't *that* important) can also change a person. The last point being pretty realistic, too. But maybe we could've been shown more of Red's transformation in that regard, this seems kind of sudden (or I'm forgetting something). The other problem is the, also sudden, tone shifts. GKC actually usually does this well, but it seemed a bit *too* jumpy at times. Maybe it'll look better when I read it all at once at some point. And yeah, it's not quite as black as Red states it, I think. People had the option not to join Annie. But I don't think everyone has to be right about everything all the time in a fictional narrative, especially in a comic that essentially a coming-of-age story. Plus, I somehow doubt this is the end of this discussion. It probably even won't be in the next chapter, but it'll come around, as everything (mostly) does in GKC. Man, I wanted to just make a quick, short comment... but... Lastly, I must applaud Tom. I was just recently thinking how there aren't stories that accurately and realistically depict the experience of maturing, doing something you think is right, maybe even helps others, but you delude yourself with rationalizations and just do the thing for yourself. And how it hurts and kinda comes out of nowhere (for you) when someone faces you with it, with the fact that you haven't been thinking about everyone involved and how it affected them. Damn, Red seems mild compared to my experiences. Plus, there isn't always someone to sum it for you neatly. That's a fucking luxury. So kudos for that, he managed to pull that off, and I think that's a extremely hard one to pull off. I love this comment. Really well expressed. It's amazing how blase people can get about kids RISKING THEIR LIVES to resolve a rather abstract problem, like this is something they would want their kids to rush off and do every day and twice on Sundays, with just as little planning as Annie and co appear to have done. Annie and co have just done a classic "teenagers who think they are invincible" reckless move. The thought behind it is admirable but they really need to understand how much dumb luck they just had, emphasis on the dumb. And Red in her inimitable way has given Annie that wake up call. |
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Post by rafk on Mar 16, 2017 7:28:53 GMT
Seriously, no matter how well intentioned, if some other kid led my kid to put their life on the line like this, while it is also my kid's fault for doing it and they get yelled at too, I would want to scream at the ringleader kid for endangering my loved one, and that's what Red is feeling too. I can't help but feel that there might be an old/young divide in reactions here. Someone endangers your kid or your spouse, they are awful no matter what responsibility your kid or spouse shares for going along with it.
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Post by Runningflame on Mar 16, 2017 7:29:15 GMT
Okay, calm it down, people. We have disagreements--strong ones--but let's have a civil discussion together about this comic that we all appreciate. |
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Post by Deepbluediver on Mar 16, 2017 7:47:45 GMT
And the mistake (in this comic anyway, because it is well written) is to assume that selfish jerk is all she is and all she ever can be. Annie has been, at several points in the comic, quite trying to have as a friend- Kat delivered that line practically verbatim. But other people around her kept working at being her friend, and she seems to be improving a bit, at least slowly. Red has been, at virtually every appearance in the comic (admittedly she's had less screentime than Annie, but still), an annoying, selfish jerk, whom the other characters were willing to help or at least interact with, but whom has apparently decided that she is the only annoying selfish jerk allowed in her circle of friends. She has never once, AFAICR, thanked or apologized to anyone, and yet the first time someone does something that she doesn't like, that person is excommunicated from ever interacting with her or Ayliu ever again. Edit: Actually the more I talk this out the less out-of-character Red's actions seems. She less...spontaneous, but she's still the same short-sighted jerk she's always been, she's just blaming other people for her own shortcomings more. Red acts out of character. Red does not act unbelievably out of character. Red's change in behavior, to me, is perfectly believable for someone who was subject to trauma and has been constantly focused on it since then. Red cannot brush this off like anything else, she is forced to confront it and such a jarring event is going to cause some serious inner change. Fine, fair point. Maybe Red is truly traumatized and not getting the therapy she needs and this is a coping mechanism. But if that's the point, why are so many people missing it? I'm struggling to see where this plothook goes next, which I believe was one of my original criticisms. Also I like the next-tier rationalizations, like the people who realized that obviously what Annie did with Ayilu was really fucked up and manipulative and abusive, and figured they couldn't justify that, so were like, "Well, Red started off making some good points, but then she just got abusive and ignored context" and blah blah blah. Mother fuckers, no she didn't. She confronted Annie about the thing that most hurt her/her one true love, and then Annie kept making fucking excuses instead of apologizing.Now if that were me I would have started with, "You exploited and put the person I love most in the world in danger, fuck off and never talk to me again you sack of shit." And that would have been completely justified! Red would have been totally justified just leading off with "Fuck off, Annie." But no, she tried to give Annie every opportunity to explain or take responsibility and she just kept making up bullshit excuses. And never once apologizing for her bad behavior at all. Yeah, Red is totally justified in not wanting her around after that, that's shitty and abusive behavior. Shit I do like Annie but this is a well-deserved wake-up call. Again, we didn't see what exactly the nature of the deal was that Annie & Co offered to Ayilu to get her to agree to help. But if it was important that she be seen as being manipulative, why didn't we see it? I have no reason to believe that Annie wasn't forthright about the danger- maybe Red and her friend just shrugged it off though, kinda like they don't react to things the way a human might. Second, yes Annie didn't respond in the best way she might have. That's what happens when you ambush someone. Are you telling me that "Oh boy I can't believe we're going to give my best friend a name and by the way I think your plan was shit and you are scum" doesn't comes across as more than a little shocking? It's hardly like Red is a paragon of virtue, which I think is part of the problem- suppose Annie had decided she didn't want to bother with Red the first time Red displayed such traits? Having one character criticize another for behaviors that you've displayed in the past comes across as hypocritical. What long term repercussions? Are you serious? Red is fucking traumatized. She wakes up in the middle of the night having nightmares I'll concede the point- that is a possible long term repercussion. It still seems odd given that the faeries react to practically every other situation differently than you'd expect them to if they were fully human. However it seems like her (Red's) response to finally taking a situation seriously for the first time in the entire story is to vent on someone else. I'll remind you that Annie is not an adult, not a teacher, or tactician of any kind. She's still just a kid. Taking her to task for a lack of skills she shouldn't be expected to have, and ignoring anyone else's part in this, seems like a poor display of placing responsibility. I think you're missing the point again- I wasn't saying Tony is like Red, I was saying that part of the story feels like this part of the story, except that that was far more interesting to read IMO. It's amazing how blase people can get about kids RISKING THEIR LIVES to resolve a rather abstract problem, like this is something they would want their kids to rush off and do every day and twice on Sundays, with just as little planning as Annie and co appear to have done. Annie and co have just done a classic "teenagers who think they are invincible" reckless move. The thought behind it is admirable but they really need to understand how such dumb luck they just had, emphasis on the dumb. And Red in her inimitable way has given Annie that wake up call. Ok, but why has the story taken approximately 900 chapters to get to that point? Do remember in the first couple of chapters where the court didn't think Annie was worth rescuing and Kat went down and picked her up on a homemade hoverbike? Or when Annie was at least in the running for being the Court's medium and while she didn't get it, Smitty and Parley were both drafted despite being barely any older? Or the part where an entire ship full of kid's get hijacked by a crazed AI and ending up saving themselves along with the help of a bunch robots? I could go on like this for quite a while. If the point is "kids shouldn't be taking risks like this" then why has the author spent every story arc up to this point making it look so appealing? |
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Post by Deepbluediver on Mar 16, 2017 7:57:28 GMT
As a counter-argument to everyone who claims that Annie led Red and Ayilu unknowingly into danger like lambs to the slaughter- I'd like to ask you a question. Do you remember who was present when Annie first met Jeanne? I'll give you a hint: gunnerkrigg.com/?p=141 |
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oic. And then half the reader base flipped their shit because they don't like their vicariously lived through protagonist being held responsible for things she is responsible for.
