[1805] Never

[westwindreborn]

I am curious to see how this attitude reflects in the rest of foley house. Also i think it would be interesting if Ayilu acually refused to help with jeanne unless Annie gave her a name in return. Given her penchant for manipulation, this is rather in character. She knew it could be dangerous, granted she didnt count on things going as pear shaped as the did, she could use the situation to force Red to pay more attention to her while giving a better light to herself by seeming to do a good deed. And we haven't seen what was going on between now and then, theroretically she could have played things off as being manipulated into the situation while simultaneously driving a wedge between Red and her "rival".

This is all speculation of course and just dabbling in a 'what if' situation. But it could be interesting if Ayilu's main driving force was jealousy of the attention Annie gets from Red and her classmates. She never protested her autonomy and just watched Red rear Annie down and seemed very please with the splitting of their sorta friendship.

I do think this will be good for Annie in the long run, hopfully forcing her to become more reflective of her actions and people around her. Annie is a good example of why being isolated from a young age is a very bad thing.

[snowflake]

Mar 15, 2017 11:23:45 GMT mrduckard said:

I hope Annie will realize/someone will tell her this criticism has no leg to stand on, especially the "you manipulated us all" part.

If Annie will react to this not by withdrawing all the way into herself, as she has before, but by talking to Andrew or Kat about her doubts, they probably will.

I bet Andrew could also draw the details of her deal with Muut out of her for us.

[dotdotdot]

MFW I see the "end-of-chapter" symbol after that rant, with no response or other resolution

[selthafrinon]

Some people made the point that the others were still autonomous beings during the prior events, therefore Red's argument is flawed in putting all the blame on Annie. I'd like to point out that people in the real world lose their autonomy all the time. It is not a sacrosanct and unbending quality of humanity; in fact, it is one of the most malleable things we posses. People give up their autonomy all the time: we do jobs we'd rather not and submit ourselves to people who care nothing for us. We follow orders when better options are available and sacrifice our choices and controversial opinions to fit in with a larger group ("We" referencing humanity as a whole and not us individuals who have had different life experiences).

Annie and her friends are essentially in high school. The desire to fit in with a group reaches its peak at that age. The argument goes along the lines of "the others had autonomy because they had a choice whether or not to confront Jeanne." That is true in a basic sense. However, the social pressure to participate in the dangerous act is enormous: Annie is a charismatic and charming individual, and every other member of the group has publicly accepted the task. Even if each member is nursing regrets or misgivings, backing out seems cowardly when your friends are willing (many parallels with what happens with gangs, drugs, and groupthink).

Even if one member has the courage to call out how dangerous the plan is, the others are likely to unite in convincing that member why they have to do what they are doing (being unable to sooth the cognitive dissonance between their own thoughts and their actions/public words), strengthening the commitment to the dangerous act.

Finally, each member feels guilt for thinking of backing out. In a situation like this, each member also feels responsible for the lives of the others, a la "what if I don't go down and someone dies when I could have prevented it?" Put together, these factors are more than enough to silence any autonomy that most people can muster. It's why people can do terrible things in groups when they find them abhorrent as individuals. It's why a certain dictator in WW2 managed to get a nation to ignore the atrocities his regime committed.

Annie unknowingly used these principals to bring these people together and do something good, I won't argue that. But to assume that the other members of the group had full autonomy in accepting the mission is ignoring a great deal of sociological work that happens in every group. (Annie herself is less affected by the sociological pressure because of her status as the group leader, the reasons for which I discussed in a previous post.)

[turion]

Mar 15, 2017 11:11:05 GMT snowflake said:

Kat gained nothing

Except for a friggin' green overlord arrow!

[fatexx544]

I am annoyed by this whole sequence, mostly because Red (and many commenters here) want Annie to "be more conscious" of the dangers or something like that. But I don't see how Annie had many better options.

All of this discussion has dodged the fact that Jeanne was suffering. What they did was a fundamentally good thing. The Court would never have helped because they created the situation. This is not some selfish act on Annie's part and she is correct that going to the Court for help would not have ended well.

On top of this, Red herself was not very cognizant of the dangers. A lot of - heck, ALL - of this speech applies as well or better to Red herself.

And what precautions was Annie missing? She had a massive team there for distraction and delay purposes.

Finally, Annie is the ONLY one to suffer negative consequences in the end (though the extent of those consequences is still unclear).

The characterization of her "ignoring" Smitty while he bled out is incredibly untrue.

In the end, I really, really don't understand what there is for Annie to learn from this. The only alternative was not to stage the rescue at all. But remember that means leaving Jeanne to continue suffering for an indefinite period of time.

[atteSmythe]

Annie fell into the same trap that Anthony often does: Assuming everyone is the same as she is.

From Annie's point of view, she understood the risks and accepted them. She assumed that everyone else involved had done the same thing, and was willing to accept personal risk in order to right a great wrong.

Well, she was incorrect, apparently. But that still doesn't make Red and Blue's well-being her responsibility. Annie has no authority over them, or responsibility for them, and Red had plenty of time to raise her objections before the mission began. ...and let's not forget that Red didn't exactly help.

[freedomgeek]

Nice visual pun with Red dressing up as a red by the way.

[arzeik]

Mar 15, 2017 7:36:57 GMT ih8pkmn said:

We get it, Tom, Annie is a fuck-up. You don't have to reinforce that point for NINE CHAPTERS STRAIGHT. (I'm not counting Chapter 55 because that was literally two pages.) The entirety of Volume 6 is literally nothing but filler and angst for Annie.

This has turned into "The Continuing Adventures of Annie's Future Therapy Bills". I'm actually starting to really doubt Tom's quality as a writer; since Tony came back, the assumption seems to be "constantly beating down on a character and stripping them down to nothing without any recovery or redemption in sight is good writing".

We want to root for Annie, and seeing shit like this happen to her chapter after chapter has just. Gotten. Old.

It's fascinating how people focus on the criticism Annie gets, act as if it was the voice of Tom and not Red's voice (good written characters have their opinions, and  they don't have to match the author's; it's so obvious I feel stupid for pointing it out, but...) and somehow utterly fail to get anything of what is really interesting here:

Mar 1, 2017 8:03:27 GMT speedwell said:

Oh. Oh dear. The meaning of "ayilu" that suggests a state of frenzied bewilderment seems to be the active one at the moment.  Fairy Court names seem to impact their personality and behavior, and I'm not sure it's their actual choice. Red dresses like a Communist agitator. Bugsy is blasé to the point of low affect, like the jaded mobster. What other fairies do we know by a Court name?

Mar 15, 2017 7:15:35 GMT snowflake said:

I'm just going to quote this, from last page's thread, because it was somewhat overlooked, despite being a powerful source of context:

Mar 13, 2017 22:08:09 GMT keef said:

The Chinese Red Guards. They had a reputation for publicly humiliating their victims by means of (far fetched) criticism. Must be a coincidence.

Thank you, arkadi and keef!

Thank you, speedwell, snowflake, arkadi and keef. It can be all a coincidence, sure, but... Their culture is full of subtlety, you know.
For the record, I love this page.

[Trillium]

Well, thank God that's over.

I noticed that Red waited till after she got to see Ayilu get her name to unload on Annie, cut off their relationship and put on the full Court kit. "...I know you and me are kinda friends but..." yep with friends like you...

Notice that Annie has not put off nor forgotten that she said she'd name Ayilu. As far as I'm concerned she kept her part of the bargain.

Red has always been a jerk. And the thing is if she ever needs Annie's help she'd probably get it. After all, "...you and me are kinda friends..."

[luxanima]

I love Annie, but you people take it to new heights. I doubt you would be so apologetic of a person who put *your* loved one in mortal danger.

The only possible problem(s) I saw with this chapter is how Red realizes that names are worthless. Seems weird someone who (I presume) grew up with the idea of a name being something terribly important, disregards it so casually. But the more I think about it, the more I actually like what Tom's trying to do here: It's like a statement that out upbringing doesn't define us, and how a new culture (where names aren't *that* important) can also change a person. The last point being pretty realistic, too. But maybe we could've been shown more of Red's transformation in that regard, this seems kind of sudden (or I'm forgetting something).

The other problem is the, also sudden, tone shifts. GKC actually usually does this well, but it seemed a bit *too* jumpy at times. Maybe it'll look better when I read it all at once at some point.

And yeah, it's not quite as black as Red states it, I think. People had the option not to join Annie. But I don't think everyone has to be right about everything all the time in a fictional narrative, especially in a comic that essentially a coming-of-age story. Plus, I somehow doubt this is the end of this discussion. It probably even won't be in the next chapter, but it'll come around, as everything (mostly) does in GKC.

Man, I wanted to just make a quick, short comment... but... Lastly, I must applaud Tom. I was just recently thinking how there aren't stories that accurately and realistically depict the experience of maturing, doing something you think is right, maybe even helps others, but you delude yourself with rationalizations and just do the thing for yourself. And how it hurts and kinda comes out of nowhere (for you) when someone faces you with it, with the fact that you haven't been thinking about everyone involved and how it affected them. Damn, Red seems mild compared to my experiences. Plus, there isn't always someone to sum it for you neatly. That's a fucking luxury. So kudos for that, he managed to pull that off, and I think that's a extremely hard one to pull off.

[crater]

Semi- agree with Red here. If I was a "normal" in the court, I'd really want nothing to do with the plans of ANYONE with "magic" powers. They're simply too dangerous. To Kat, Annie, Smitty, and George, messing around with an ghost killing machine is / will be "everyday life" for them. But to Red and Ay, messing around with a being like that is almost certain death.

So in a sense, Red is correct for letting Annie know how dangerous she is. Even though it's selfish and apathetic, By basically telling Annie to f*** off forever, Red IS doing something that will probably increase her and Ay's lifespan.

(really doubt this is the end of Red and Annie's relationship tho)

[ctso74]

Mar 15, 2017 7:36:57 GMT ih8pkmn said:

We get it, Tom, Annie is a fuck-up. You don't have to reinforce that point for NINE CHAPTERS STRAIGHT. (I'm not counting Chapter 55 because that was literally two pages.) The entirety of Volume 6 is literally nothing but filler and angst for Annie.

This has turned into "The Continuing Adventures of Annie's Future Therapy Bills". I'm actually starting to really doubt Tom's quality as a writer; since Tony came back, the assumption seems to be "constantly beating down on a character and stripping them down to nothing without any recovery or redemption in sight is good writing".

We want to root for Annie, and seeing shit like this happen to her chapter after chapter has just. Gotten. Old.

I don't agree with everything you commented, but "The Continuing Adventures of Annie's Future Therapy Bills" made me laugh. I'm starting to imagine the trailer for it in my head.

[bicarbonat]

Mar 15, 2017 7:36:48 GMT Cori said:

Mar 15, 2017 7:32:56 GMT rafk said:

2) You're as guilty as Annie of thinking of Red as a 2 dimensional comic relief character there to suit Annie, rather than a being capable of deeper thoughts.

We've never been given any reason to see Red as anything less than an annoying, selfish jerk. Every time she's shown up in this comic that's what she's been.

Exactly. Sorry, I don't project deeper qualities onto people (aka "hot person"/" Prince Charming" syndrome). Who knows, maybe the more genuine human 'rites' a former fairy experiences like awareness of love, the more like a sane human being they become. In which case, congratuwelldone to Red, who is still a dillweed.

I'm guessing this might bend Annie even further to her psychopomp contract, as that's a solo deal. And I'm guessing Coyote will like that just fine, if his ears and previous actions are any indication.

[Daedalus]

Mar 15, 2017 7:55:16 GMT edzepp said:

Woof, not many good feelings around here huh.

Current forum mood.

[freedomgeek]

I, for one, actually like this page a lot. It's my favorite page in quite some time because it was actually interesting and something happened and Red looks so cute in the Court uniform (and I'm happy she's appearing loyal to the Court now).

[ctso74]

Though Red has a valid point or two(especially the shady name business), a lot of that was weirdly half-baked crap.
However, if I had the image of my best friend and loved one being skewered, keeping me up at night, I wouldn't behave too rationally either. I don't agree with Red, but there's no reason for her to act rationally. She's acting emotional, and there is no reasoning that out, fairy or not. I think she saw Ayilu get stabbed and said "Nope. Big Nope." She's taking what they came for, and making their exit while the getting's good.
Hypocritical and a little self-centered, but emotionally honest. Gray maturity? Neither black nor white. I don't know.

Not everyone can be friends, and people sometimes rationalize their emotions in contrived ways. It happens. In context, that uniform is a little eerie, though...

[foxurus]

Ayilu was so quiet during the last part of this chapter that I wonder if she and Red were communicating in the ether, as faeries are wont to do.

[goldenknots]

Interesting that her hat has the Bismuth symbol on it. Where did she get the hat, and the uniform? Did she make them, or were they given to her?

[vanzetti]

gosh golly, this page was hilarious. Too bad Red didn't have a microphone to drop.

[Druplesnubb]

Not sure why everyone is so upset. Yeah, Red's comments on Kat and the others are pretty off-base but those aren't what's important to Red, Ayilu is.

[atteSmythe]

Mar 15, 2017 16:08:06 GMT luxanima said:

I love Annie, but you people take it to new heights. I doubt you would be so apologetic of a person who put *your* loved one in mortal danger.

Though I largely agree with the rest of what you wrote, I think this line sums up (or stands as a good example) of the primary difference of opinion in this thread.

The other point of view is that Annie didn't put anyone in danger. She asked someone to be involved in a dangerous thing, and that person agreed.

The former view puts responsibility for each person's decision on Annie.
The latter view puts responsibility for each person's decision on the person making the decision.

Annie takes the latter view, but apparently Red takes the former.

Personally, I don't agree with Red's "you exchanged something without value to you for something you value" argument at all. From Annie's point of view Blue made the exact same bargain! She got a name, which she couldn't get without someone's help, in exchange for creating an illusion, which is something easy for her.

Annie and she assumed the same risk in making this exchange. The question is how much of that risk was conveyed to Blue before hand, IMO. But we didn't see her being recruited, so we can't know.

Edit: In summary, the police and fire fighters don't work for free.

[Runningflame]

Thank you for reading this chapter about girls no longer being friends.

Mar 15, 2017 11:06:35 GMT heranje said:

Mar 15, 2017 7:49:08 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Genteel forum-goers, Ayilu's reaction on this page makes perfect sense if you view Antimony as a potential rival for Red's attention. Remember Ayilu's facial expressions on this page and the following page? Red brings it up herself in this very chapter. In retrospect I think that (plus the verbal abuse Red was flinging at her) conflicting with the aborted confession is why she went nutz after seeing Red hanging off Antimony here.

Sure, Red's reasoning doesn't track completely but the chapter seems consistent to me. I was expecting this end result, or even this plus a punch in the face. I was wrong about Ayilu's reaction. I figured she'd rein Red in a bit but considering how they like a good fight I should have known better.

Now that you mention it, this might also explain why Red suddenly went off on this rant. She wasn't exhibiting any hostility towards Annie at the beginning of the chapter, and the way she hung on her in the panel you link to does not seem like the mannerism of someone who's about to go on a "you're unfriended" rant. It was also only after Red hung on Annie's shoulder that Ayilu started with her violent reaction. Red, having just realized that she loves Ayilu, sees that and also knows that Ayilu has been jealous of Annie in the past. So she decides to show her love for Ayilu by angrily tearing into Annie and declaring that she no longer wants anything to do with her - and when she does that, Ayilu pretty much immediately calms down, and goes from her destructive "celebration" of the new name to happily waving bye to Annie and hugging Red.

With that interpretation, it seems like Red's rant was not really much about Annie at all (which is why it doesn't matter to Red that it was logically inconsistent), and more about telling Ayilu that "this person you see as a competitor means nothing to me and I'll defend you and show my disdain for her to prove that."

Their culture is full of subtlety.

This. This right here makes so much sense. Especially with the cheery way Ayilu is like, "Bye!" in panel 5. She got exactly what she wanted, didn't she?

Ayilu is totally fine with this situation.

Next chapter: Annie debriefs with Kat, who assures her that she isn't a selfish jerkface. We find out Robot's status. Some discussion of Kat's eldritch etheric form ensues.

[krael]

I don't think Red's particularly unreasonable. The phrasing of stuff apart, Annie clearly was the origin and driving force behind helping Jeane, and helping Jeane could have cost lives on account of it being a far too dangerous task. Others might have been eager to help for their own reasons, Annie started this, and that counts in terms of responsibility.

The whole line of thinking about Annie offering Blue a name is very reasonable, especially from the fairy perspective. I think people are just uncomfortable with the fact that the fairies are more observant and less 'savage' than the humans (readers included) tend to give them credit for.

Annie's "the court would have found out" argument is... unjustifiable, regardless of what it may or may not say about Annie's possible character flaws, it does say something about her judgement and sense of priorities being compromised beyond safety standards.

On account of putting others in danger, by the laws of dramatic omens, this is indubitably what Jones meant:

[jinxiii]

Wait. Hold up.

Annie meets Red and Ayilu and proceeds to get her face sliced up by Jeanne in front of them. Later...

Red: I'm so mad at you because you put her life in danger by saying you would name her! We so didn't know?

Also Red: *names Ayilu*

If Red could have named her since she's had her own name then ??

Mar 15, 2017 7:32:12 GMT aline said:

Am I the only one who thinks the Court symbol on Red's cap is suspicious?
Someone said earlier that the Court may be somehow influencing her. I didn't think it was likely at the time, but now I'm not so sure.

I feel like most of this comic has been a precursor to a war between the court and the forest. Red's military attire heavily suggests this, particularly her hat, and her new feud with Annie would appropriately pin her against Annie and her group. The timing would be right if a war were to start now that the main thing separating the court and the forest is gone... Further, Red having military attire, particular with the court's bismuth symbol on it suggests that they may be keeping a military... but that is all speculation.

[warrl]

Mar 15, 2017 7:08:37 GMT Zox Tomana said:

The only people possibly lacking in full knowledge of the risks here are Ayilu and Red.

Nope. Red definitely knew, and thought that her friend getting a name in exchange for just a little bit of help was a good deal.

Ayilu, we don't know if she knew. But if she didn't, then Antimony wasn't the only one being neglectful - Red was too, and with much greater personal incentive to properly inform her.

We also don't know if Andrew knew the risk. But if he didn't, then Antimony wasn't the only one being neglectful - George was too, and with much greater personal incentive to properly inform him.

Robot's first appearance (that we saw) in the ravine was when he attacked Jeanne, which implies that (a) he wasn't part of the plan so there was no duty to inform him, and (b) he somehow knew what was going on anyway. Annie and Kat - and maybe George and Andrew - probably had previously discussed Jeanne in his presence. (Robot also faced considerably less risk: unless his CPU is damaged, he can just wait for Kat to build/grow him a new body. The CPU is much smaller than the critical parts of a human body.)

George and Annie knew what they were facing from personal experience. Annie and Kat knew from the RotD recordings.

Mar 15, 2017 8:56:03 GMT red4bestgirl said:

I especially love the defenses that jump between "Well, she didn't hold a gun to anyone's head, so she's not responsible for anyone else or possible harm that might befall them for listening to her" to "But also she did an awesome thing and deserves praise for it."

Like she actually did nothing, all of the actual work was done by other people on this one. How does she deserve credit for that but not blame for if things had gone wrong?

I don't know what comic you're referring to, but dealing with Jeanne was very much a community effort. As far as we know, nobody but Annie could have retrieved the arrow - but she needed help finding it *to* retrieve, and Kat provided that help. Kat - and quite possibly Annie - would have died in the attempt if Jeanne had not been distracted, and the plan was for Ayilu and George to provide that distraction. Andrew was needed to improve the accuracy of George's teleports.

Robot apparently showed up unannounced, but then he added to the distraction of Jeanne.

Mr. Green's arrival wasn't a huge surprise, I expect, and he was critical to getting Jeanne to stop fighting.

It took some arm-twisting and bargaining to get the psychopomps to be something other than an annoying distraction, but in the end they healed Andrew.

The only ones involved who didn't significantly contribute to their success were Jeanne... and Red.

aline said:

If the whole plan was stupid, then we're dealing with four idiotic teens, not one.

I count six. And Red delivered grievous insults to five of them. The five that did something useful.

[joshrb]

I don't see why people are criticising Red's outburst. That's her character. Her outburst was unreasonable, but (by plot-driven standards) completely justified. Take into consideration how long Annie and Parley wanted to help/put off helping Jeanne; 1-2 years?

Annie was pressured to assist the RotD, and Parley wanted to prove to Jeanne that she didnt possess the heart of a coward. It wasn't an order or duty, it was an obligation at most. Nobody's lives depended on saving Jeanne, it was just in the back of their minds. And to make matters worse, they involved 4 more unwanted parties: Kat, Red, Ayilu and Smitty, by association. Sure, their abilities were of use, but this is Annie and Parley's personal skirmish, particularly. The transition from "preparation" to "plan in action" was so abrupt, it just stresses Red and Ayilu's last minute involvement. There wasn't even an explanation as to how they devised the plan it was so abrupt.

The parties with the least investment were the ones put most in danger, so arguably, they had more on the line. Nobody wants to die for a battle that wasn't their own.

I see this as an opportunity of growth for Annie and Parley. From this experience, they learn of responsibility, the severity of a situation and the consequences it can bring. From this point on, they can only become better leaders.

[keef]

A very subtle and entertaining chapter. I hope we get Ayilu's point of view in the bonus page.

[kukapetal]

Annie owes them both an apology.

Then she should honor Red's request and never speak to either of them again.

I'd love it if we never had to put up with either of those vile unlikable characters ever again.

Everybody wins.

[antiyonder]

Mar 15, 2017 10:42:40 GMT somebunny said:

So much harshness against Red in this thread. Someone she considered a friend put her in a situation that (VERY RECENTLY) literally traumatized her and nearly killed the person she loves more than anything in the world. From that situation, Red gained nothing, Ayilu gained a name, something Annie could have given her with zero effort but decided she wouldn't unless Ayilu was willing to sacrifice everything for Annie's benefit. I think that alone is a perfectly justifiable reason to be like "hey, I should maybe get the hell away from this person".

Let's go further, though. Red decided to confront Annie and give her a chance to explain herself. Let's keep in mind that Red is a fresh trauma victim and also doesn't have the whole story as to Annie and the group's motivations.

-Red brings up being put in danger, Annie's response is basically "but i did something in return, even though that thing took no effort, and the thing you did for me was nearly the ultimate price".
-Red brings up Smitty being left in pain. Annie makes no mentions of the risks of modern medicine failing, or possible etheric damage, or anything, she shoots for "we didn't want to get caught", without explaining the fears or consequences of getting caught. Considering the life she's led in the court, what are Red's ideas of "consequences for getting in trouble with the court"? Probably not extreme.
-Red follows that up, basically asking "You left your friend in great pain for a reason like THAT?", and Annie replies by implying that it's okay that she did that, since she didn't WANT anyone to get hurt.
-Annie brings up the importance of the others to the plan, and Red asks if Annie gave Kat a choice in participating. ANNIE DOES NOT RESPOND, INSTEAD LOOKING AWAY. Probably a massive red flag to Red at this point. Red realizes Ayilu isn't the only one who's been manipulated by Annie here.

I think Red's arguments are just fine; the manner of the conversation might not be, but maybe have some empathy and give a non-human recent-trauma victim some leeway in how they manage a stressful conversation with the person arguably responsible for their trauma?

I don't know.  I mean it's not like turning down Annie would prevent Ayilu from getting a name.  As such, she could have just waited for the privilege without risking her life to get it ahead of time.  Afterall, getting to have agency also means that one needs to accept the consequences of your own choice and it seems like Red wanted Ayilu to have the agency without any drawbacks.

That said, while I still am in disagreement, I appreciate that you voiced your stance in a civilized fashion without attacking fans of either characters.