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Post by setrain on Nov 9, 2015 10:15:57 GMT
It's not about what's good for him. Forgiving somebody before you've well and truly stopped making excuses for them, just lets you fall back into making excuses for them. It's not good for her to make his feelings her problem even if she is the best one to help. She needs to hold onto that anger at least a little longer so that she can finally internalize that she deserves better from him. She won't get a father by putting his feelings above her own. What's the use of a father figure that uses up your clarity instead of giving it you and forces you to make them feel better instead of supporting you. There is such a thing as being too early to forgive and if they never get there, she'll be healthier letting him go than if she acts like she's responsible for his happiness. You're treating Annie like she's a stable adult character. She's not. She's still a kid. Kids need their freedom, but they also need a degree of parental guidance to keep them from becoming too directionless and to make them understand consequence and responsibility. Annie had none of those things. She was slacking off school work and disrespecting authority left and right. It's what got her into so much trouble with the court to begin with. Additionally, I think we're looking at the story kinda differently. For one, I don't see all this as being about Annie, with Anthony being an extra character that can be discarded. I think his story here is important too. And now that Annie's got her head together, I don't think she's going to just continue rolling over for him. Ultimately, they're the only family they have. It's far better to better understand each other and develop a healthy relationship. I should mention that I have a shit Dad. And he's a lot more abusive and hurtful than Anthony. He's basically just swimming in hatred, for himself, for everything. If he could try to let that go, own his mistakes, and be a proper father again? I'd give him a chance in a heartbeat. But he won't do that. He's going to die miserable and alone and I'm probably never going to see him again until his funeral. I hated him for a long time. I learned to let go of those feelings. If I've learned anything from all of it, it's that clinging to anger is just poisoning yourself. Holding a grudge benefits no one. It does nothing but feed your pride. I think you're pretty much said it yourself. Letting go of anger is different from letting yourself trust somebody again. It's a point of confusion that we use the word "forgive" for both of those things. It's important to let go of anger...eventually. But anger has a purpose. I have an abusive dad too. An important step in my healing was to make myself stop trying to get him to change. I needed to stop making excuses for him. Because as long as I made myself believe that what he did to me was okay, I would keep letting other people do it to me. Admittedly Annie doesn't seem to have that problem. But she does have a problem with anger, and it's easier to let go of your anger when you have clarity about it's proper place. Forgiveness is something you have to do right, or it won't still. It sounds like both of our fathers were worse than Anthony and I find it much more plausible that she could have a healthy relationship with him one day. But forgiving somebody for something that major without an apology just invites them to continue treating them that way. |
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Post by setrain on Nov 9, 2015 10:18:12 GMT
Legally, yes he probably has the right? Morally? Dead beat dads who abandon their children and know nothing of their lives don't have much claim to parental authority. The decision belongs in the hands of the adults that are actually taking care of her. Edit: and even legally, if I were her case worker I would strongly recommend she be taken a way for a while until he got his act together, especially given that there are multiple likely willing foster parents with a strong relationship with her already. He is no state to be responsible for a child right now. His methods have been complete shit, no question. However, he's also the first person to actually hold her accountable for cheating her way through most of her schoolwork, Which has been a major background issue that wasn't getting the attention it needed. Even Kat, her closest friend, didn't know about it. Shit's been going on for years and the only person who's ever even brought it up with her is Renard. And the last time he brought it up, it turned into a fight that ended with Annie fleeing the school for months. The fact that it went on as long as it did is why it was that much more important that he become involved in her life. It is exactly the sort of thing that a parent is responsible for. Not Annie's peers, and not her friends' parents (if they even knew about it) The other awful things he's done to her are already half undone at this point. She's got Renard back with zero resistance, and she's resumed her duties as Forest medium thanks to Coyote throwing a temper tantrum. And don't forget, Anthony only made her quit that job because the court was going to exile her over it. Like, his total emotional disconnection and insensitivity are absolutely hurting her. No one questions this. But pretty much all of the big changes he's imposed on her were all explicitly done for her benefit. The actual problem with what he's done here is his inability to connect to her and actually talk with her like a regular person. If he'd just come up to her and told her why she couldn't go to the forest anymore and why he didn't want her hanging around Renard, most of the shit people are all angry at him over wouldn't have happened. But because he just demanded that she accept all these changes, making them seem like arbitrary impositions, he came across like Hitler Dad. That doesn't excuse his abominable treatment of her in his first appearance in science class. But, literally nobody, Anthony included, thought that was okay, so I don't see a point in raving about that particular incident. The belief that there is something magical about biological parentage is sadly common but I think very dangerous. Tony has not been her father in any meaningful sense for a long time. The decisions should have been in the hands of her actual de facto guardian. |
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Post by Goatmon on Nov 9, 2015 11:11:44 GMT
I think you're pretty much said it yourself. Letting go of anger is different from letting yourself trust somebody again. It's a point of confusion that we use the word "forgive" for both of those things. It's important to let go of anger...eventually. But anger has a purpose. I have an abusive dad too. An important step in my healing was to make myself stop trying to get him to change. I needed to stop making excuses for him. Because as long as I made myself believe that what he did to me was okay, I would keep letting other people do it to me. Admittedly Annie doesn't seem to have that problem. But she does have a problem with anger, and it's easier to let go of your anger when you have clarity about it's proper place. Forgiveness is something you have to do right, or it won't still. It sounds like both of our fathers were worse than Anthony and I find it much more plausible that she could have a healthy relationship with him one day. But forgiving somebody for something that major without an apology just invites them to continue treating them that way. I'm going to take my response into a PM. |
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Post by Goatmon on Nov 9, 2015 12:15:15 GMT
The belief that there is something magical about biological parentage is sadly common but I think very dangerous. Tony has not been her father in any meaningful sense for a long time. The decisions should have been in the hands of her actual de facto guardian. There's nothing "magical" about human nature and a person's tendency to recognize parental figures as an authority, at least up to a point. I mean, her Dad is the only person we've seen her actually defer to on their terms rather than her own. Not even Coyote, a literal god, gets that much reverence from her. Clearly his authority here is established, whether or not it meets your personal standards. Second, she... doesn't really have a de facto guardian. As I said, she acknowledges absolute authority in no one but her Dad. Kat's parents? They take her on vacations, but clearly haven't provided her anything you could describe as an upbringing. Eglamore? She sometimes gives two fucks about anything he says. There's also Ysengrin, and Coyote. Moving on. Jones? Yeah okay, she has a lot of respect for Jones. But I mean, she's Jones. it's kind of hard not to kind of awestruck when you actually know much about her. Then there's Renard. Renard who is her property, and at any point can be forced to shut up at her word. Unfortunately, you can't govern or discipline someone who literally owns so, so he's not really qualified either. That just leaves Anthony. And even then, if Anthony was just an abusive dick who cared nothing for Annie? Yeah, okay fuck that guy. I But he's not that guy. There are very different types of abuse. His parenting faults are more of neglect and emotional distance than intentional harm. He clearly loves her. He doesn't like the way he's treated her. He wants to be a better Dad. Dude just doesn't know how to make that happen. Some people are just.... really shit at being parents. |
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Post by GK Sierra on Nov 9, 2015 15:11:59 GMT
Everybody play nice please.
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Bill
Junior Member
Posts: 68 
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Post by Bill on Nov 10, 2015 5:16:01 GMT
I hated him for a long time. I learned to let go of those feelings. If I've learned anything from all of it, it's that clinging to anger is just poisoning yourself. Holding a grudge benefits no one. It does nothing but feed your pride. This is a large part of my definition of forgiveness. Letting go of a grudge. To ask for forgiveness is to admit to being at fault, to having caused harm. To forgive, then, is to say "You have wronged me, but I will not hold it against you." Thus, to forgive in the first place requires acknowledging that the other person is at fault. It does not necessarily let them off the hook. It is not saying that what they did is okay. It does pave the way for reconciliation. Most importantly, when you forgive you set yourself free to move on with your life. "Holding a grudge is like poisoning yourself and waiting for the other person to die." No one deserves forgiveness. If you deserve it, then it is not forgiveness but a settling of debts. Forgiveness is a gift, and when done in a right frame of mind, the main recipient is the giver. Please ignore the accidental attachment that I can't seem to delete or even find. Attachments:
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Post by gpvos on Nov 10, 2015 15:18:07 GMT
Just went through and counted how many pages are in each online chapter, then split it up by what I'm guessing are the divisions between books (those being the treatises?). Granted it's just an imagus sieve so it simply counts how many pages are between chapter covers, but things like the city face extras generally go for two weeks and an even number anyways if I recall correctly. 1, 01-07: 16, 16, 26, 10, 16, 12, 24 2, 08-14: 28, 16, 16, 19, 28, 30, 47 3, 15-22: 26, 30, 34, 46, 32, 30, 32, 35 4, 23-31: 26, 36, 31, 26, 28, 26, 18, 28, 55 5, 32-41: 26, 30, 48, 26, 28, 24, 30, 36, 36, 50 6, 42-49: 26, 30 ,30, 32, 26, 32, 28, 82 7, 50-??: 22, 22, 26, 30, 24, 2? (though i can tell i counted something wrong because i think there's only five books currently? and there's two different pages that both claim to be the end of the second book so i have no idea what i'm doing anymore)Because I have the books and don't feel like studying yet: V1, 1-14: 16, 16, 26, 10, 16, 12, 24, 28, 16, 16, 18, 28, 30, 36 V2, 15-22: 26, 30, 34, 44, 32, 30, 32, 24 V3, 23-31: 26, 36, 30, 26, 28, 26, 18, 28, 43 (! - with a black page before the treatise, even though there wasn't a bonus page) V4, 32-41: 24, 30, 48, 26, 28, 24, 30, 36, 36, 38 V5, 42-49: 26, 30, 30, 32, 26, 32, 28, 71 I didn't include the City Face bits, just title page-chapter-bonus page. Treatises usually took the place of a bonus page, with the exception of V3. So... two chapters with odd-numbered pages, both at the ends of books, unless I counted incorrectly, but at any rate they're all even-numbered. Never occurred to me that Tom was planning that far ahead with the comic. I remember there being two bonus pages one time as well, but I was going through the chapters too quickly to notice which one it was. So... I'm guessing either two bonus pages for this chapter (one with Annie, one with Tony, perhaps?), or Tom'll just include an extra black page to keep things tidy. Okay, combining Gotolei's list from the website with dramastix's list from the book, we get these differences between the books and the website (up until chapter 49; there is also no extra material in chapters 50-54 but the book has not come out yet): - Chapter 11 had two bonus pages (only one in the book): www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=198- Chapter 14 had no bonus page, but was followed by a treatise (also in the book), an announcement by Tea, and 10 pages of holiday filler: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=293- Chapter 18's bonus page was followed by two pages of Kat playing some video game (not in the book): www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=438- After chapter 22, a treatise (in the book), Tea and 10 pages of City Face: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=558- Chapter 25's bonus page was followed by a one-page interlude with Zimmy and Gamma that was not in the book: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=661- After chapter 31, again no bonus page, but a treatise (in the book), Tea, and City Face: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=832- Chapter 32's bonus page was followed by two pages about some movie (not in the book): www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=867- Chapter 41 was followed by a treatise (in the book), a retrospective on Tom's first full-time comicking year, Tea announcing the break, and 10 City Face-related pages: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1165- Chapter 49 was followed by a treatise (in the book), Tea, and 10 pages of pigeons: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1452 |
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Post by dramastix on Nov 16, 2015 1:45:25 GMT
"Some movie"?? Oh, my heart. You need to go catch yourself up on some Miyazaki films. But thank you for reminding me of those two pages. |
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Post by snowflake on Nov 19, 2015 18:58:27 GMT
Come on. Renard isn't a serial killer. People have argued this over and over and over. I'm relatively new to reading or commenting in the fora, so I haven't seen this argued Once, let alone over and over and over. Such are the joys of the Internet. Every single moment since Renard got his "body-swapping murder" power from Coyote, he has either 1) promptly used that murder-swap power to murder-swap into other people's bodies, or 2) been firmly imprisoned in one manner or another such that he lacked any opportunity to swap into other people's bodies, or 3) attempted to murder-swap but been foiled ... the attempt on Antimony would have succeeded had not the Court Protector been luckily on the scene to intervene. Cool theory, except for the fact that Renard turns down the opportunity to regain his freedom and access to his power ( page 848) and never even bothers to ask whether the offer is still on the table in the year+ that passed since. |
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Post by gpvos on Nov 21, 2015 12:34:21 GMT
"Some movie"?? Oh, my heart. You need to go catch yourself up on some Miyazaki films. But thank you for reminding me of those two pages. I was mimicking Tom's style when he writes about "this guy" and such. Anyway, thanks for reminding me, I really needed to start watching his films. Watched Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind earlier this week; excellent film. Downloading Castle in the Sky as I'm writing this. |
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Post by darththulhu on Nov 23, 2015 19:39:53 GMT
I'm relatively new to reading or commenting in the fora, so I haven't seen this argued Once, let alone over and over and over. Such are the joys of the Internet. Every single moment since Renard got his "body-swapping murder" power from Coyote, he has either 1) promptly used that murder-swap power to murder-swap into other people's bodies, or 2) been firmly imprisoned in one manner or another such that he lacked any opportunity to swap into other people's bodies, or 3) attempted to murder-swap but been foiled ... the attempt on Antimony would have succeeded had not the Court Protector been luckily on the scene to intervene. Cool theory, except for the fact that Renard turns down the opportunity to regain his freedom and access to his power ( page 848) and never even bothers to ask whether the offer is still on the table in the year+ that passed since. It took Sivo-Renard a decade to get desperate enough to break out and look at the stars. A year isn't much, in comparison. Moreover, note how strongly Wolf-mode Renard doesn't want to be asked that ... the repeated use of the stutterring "don't" strongly implies that her offer is a real temptation, and being in "loyal wolf" mode is one of the factors holding him back. So, for that moment, and some short period (as gods measure things) thereafter, while also simultaneously being forbidden to body swap, Renard's good at not skipping town. Now ... imagine Annie dies. Or, imagine Annie acts like a jerkface for a solid year. Or, imagine Annie's Dad enters the picture and Annie radically changes. Or, imagine Renard's new owner unthinkingly gives him full access to body-swap murdering in the event that he's being harmed. Given the character's behavior to date, especially his continuing nonchalance about killing Sivo, and I have Zero Expectation that he is particularly likely to refrain from body-swap-murdering the first person to offer him physical harm (unless the person causing harm is, somehow, Annie or Kat). Now, maybe Renard will end up surprising us on that front, and not murder-swap at the first real opportunity provided to him. But that will be an unexpected and noteworthy display of moral restraint, precisely because he has yet to demonstrate that capacity when his emotions are worked up. |
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Post by darththulhu on Nov 23, 2015 19:45:54 GMT
Everybody play nice please. Sorry, I thought the line was absurd enough to be obviously humorous. To exaggerrate further for the same intent: *pinkie to lip* One! MILLLLLLION! Dollars! /*pinkie to lip* (nonsequential unmarked bills) |
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quark
Full Member
Posts: 137
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Post by quark on Nov 24, 2015 0:26:19 GMT
Cool theory, except for the fact that Renard turns down the opportunity to regain his freedom and access to his power ( page 848) and never even bothers to ask whether the offer is still on the table in the year+ that passed since. It took Sivo-Renard a decade to get desperate enough to break out and look at the stars. A year isn't much, in comparison. Moreover, note how strongly Wolf-mode Renard doesn't want to be asked that ... the repeated use of the stutterring "don't" strongly implies that her offer is a real temptation, and being in "loyal wolf" mode is one of the factors holding him back. So, for that moment, and some short period (as gods measure things) thereafter, while also simultaneously being forbidden to body swap, Renard's good at not skipping town. Now ... imagine Annie dies. Or, imagine Annie acts like a jerkface for a solid year. Or, imagine Annie's Dad enters the picture and Annie radically changes. Or, imagine Renard's new owner unthinkingly gives him full access to body-swap murdering in the event that he's being harmed. Given the character's behavior to date, especially his continuing nonchalance about killing Sivo, and I have Zero Expectation that he is particularly likely to refrain from body-swap-murdering the first person to offer him physical harm (unless the person causing harm is, somehow, Annie or Kat). Now, maybe Renard will end up surprising us on that front, and not murder-swap at the first real opportunity provided to him. But that will be an unexpected and noteworthy display of moral restraint, precisely because he has yet to demonstrate that capacity when his emotions are worked up. Okay, first: I think one strong reason why I disagree with you is the word that you use - murder-swap. Murder implies a planned kill out of malice. Motive is important - if somebody's killed in self-defence, or a soldier kills an enemy combatant, we don't define this as murder. If you don't want to kill a person, but do anyway (by accident), that's not murder. So, the reason why Renard feels that killing Daniel was murder, and killing Sivo wasn't - Daniel didn't see it coming, Renard suspected that his body-swap-power could kill him and he did it anyway and just to get close to Surma. Checks all three boxes: Renard had to plan to get Daniel alone, and his motive was to steal his body, and he killed him. Sivo, on the other hand, knew what he was getting into - he probably even warded himself against Renard before they went into battle. Seeing how Sivo is by far the strongest body we've ever seen Renard possess it's fair to say that this was a very hard fight. Renard didn't want to kill Sivo - he didn't plan to. His only reason for doing so was to evade capture - if Sivo had let him go, or if there had been another way to win a fight against a dragon, he probably wouldn't have killed him. And Renard's body follows his moods, not the other way around. He declined Annie's offer because he wanted to stay with her, protect her and because he doesn't like that Coyote manipulated him, not because his wolf-body compelled him to be in his 'loyal-wolf-mode'. I think it's going to be the other way around - he's going to be under suspicion of having killed somebody because he could, now. |
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