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Post by Bandolute on Nov 7, 2015 3:02:58 GMT
Being allowed to see your serial-killer friend again after being cut off from him for being an increasingly-arrogant juvenile delinquent qualifies as both a Present and a Favor. Come on. Renard isn't a serial killer. People have argued this over and over and over. He is a killer, in that we've known him to have killed two people. The court employee whose name escapes me, and Sivo. You might make an argument for "spree killer," even, given the timing. But a serial killer murders people for their own gratification, usually has a specific MO, often has a cooldown period between killings, and the very act of killing is usually the goal of the operation. Renard did not relish killing. It was a hugely terrible and misguided act, and I'm not saying we should just forget it happened, but he's not just some sociopath who killed for the fun of it. Not only has he shown genuine remorse and guilt, he's also spent years and years paying for it. Most importantly, he does not intend to kill again (excepting unplanned instances of self-defense). Renard is not, under even the loosest definition of the term, a serial killer. ...I'm not even going to get into the Annie thing. |
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Post by The Anarch on Nov 7, 2015 3:46:31 GMT
Renard is not, under even the loosest definition of the term, a serial killer. Huzzah! Someone else who actually knows what a serial killer is and is not! I had to argue with an entire forum full of people once, all of whom were under the mistaken impression that the Punisher was a serial killer. |
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Post by kaivetieno on Nov 7, 2015 5:52:43 GMT
Am I the only one that thinks that it was a fake Renard that he gave Antimony? I was wondering where is the sigil that should be on Renard's head. There should be Kat's sigil there, no? |
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Post by CarbonRabbit on Nov 7, 2015 6:32:05 GMT
Yeah, Coyote knocked down a building, and what did Tony say to that? He asked how she could be safe around a capricious god.
If he was sufficiently unafraid to talk back to Coyote when Coyote was actually right in front of him, why on Earth would he be scared now? Nope. It's not the building that changed his mind.
Good point. My thought then is that the court doesn't want Coyote to do anymore destruction, so possibly they told Anthony that he was to be more compliant so as to not upset Coyote further. Either way, my main point is I don't think he's afraid of her like someone suggested. |
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Post by keef on Nov 7, 2015 7:09:40 GMT
I was wondering where is the sigil that should be on Renard's head. There should be Kat's sigil there, no? No, only in his wolf form. |
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Post by setrain on Nov 7, 2015 8:24:26 GMT
You don't have to thank somebody for giving back what they had no right to take in the first place. Some of you are not going to like hearing this, but as her Dad he does have the right to veto her friendship if he doesn't approve of them. At least until she's an adult. Given that his prior knowledge of Renard was only as recent as killing one member of the court and causing the inevitable death of another (Sivo), that wasn't an entirely irrational decision, honestly. Sure, we know he was wrong to do it. But he didn't know how close Renard had become with Antimony and company. Sure, he should have learned more about the situation before acting, but that's another matter entirely. Either way, after his chat with Don, he gave Renard back to her without hesitation when asked. It's a start. Legally, yes he probably has the right? Morally? Dead beat dads who abandon their children and know nothing of their lives don't have much claim to parental authority. The decision belongs in the hands of the adults that are actually taking care of her. Edit: and even legally, if I were her case worker I would strongly recommend she be taken a way for a while until he got his act together, especially given that there are multiple likely willing foster parents with a strong relationship with her already. He is no state to be responsible for a child right now. |
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Post by setrain on Nov 7, 2015 8:30:24 GMT
I meant that he didn't even invite her in, not the he literally slammed the door. If you don't mean to say that Anthony slammed the door in Antimony's face, you should not literally write: "He totally slammed the door on her". I could stop to make a case for why my figurative wording follows common language usage patterns, but honestly, does that matter? I made a post, you understood it differently than I meant it, and then I clarified. What more exactly do you want from me? |
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Post by foresterr on Nov 7, 2015 10:13:29 GMT
Dear sweet God. So beautiful. So unutterably Perfect. The zen distillation of the Best Chapter Ever. Thoughts for the bonus page on Monday? Lotsa bonus pages. A bonus chapter, in fact  Sorry if somebody mentioned it before, I've only gotten to read this chapter today. |
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Post by Goatmon on Nov 7, 2015 10:21:10 GMT
Some of you are not going to like hearing this, but as her Dad he does have the right to veto her friendship if he doesn't approve of them. At least until she's an adult. Given that his prior knowledge of Renard was only as recent as killing one member of the court and causing the inevitable death of another (Sivo), that wasn't an entirely irrational decision, honestly. Sure, we know he was wrong to do it. But he didn't know how close Renard had become with Antimony and company. Sure, he should have learned more about the situation before acting, but that's another matter entirely. Either way, after his chat with Don, he gave Renard back to her without hesitation when asked. It's a start. Legally, yes he probably has the right? Morally? Dead beat dads who abandon their children and know nothing of their lives don't have much claim to parental authority. The decision belongs in the hands of the adults that are actually taking care of her. Edit: and even legally, if I were her case worker I would strongly recommend she be taken a way for a while until he got his act together, especially given that there are multiple likely willing foster parents with a strong relationship with her already. He is no state to be responsible for a child right now. His methods have been complete shit, no question. However, he's also the first person to actually hold her accountable for cheating her way through most of her schoolwork, Which has been a major background issue that wasn't getting the attention it needed. Even Kat, her closest friend, didn't know about it. Shit's been going on for years and the only person who's ever even brought it up with her is Renard. And the last time he brought it up, it turned into a fight that ended with Annie fleeing the school for months. The fact that it went on as long as it did is why it was that much more important that he become involved in her life. It is exactly the sort of thing that a parent is responsible for. Not Annie's peers, and not her friends' parents (if they even knew about it) The other awful things he's done to her are already half undone at this point. She's got Renard back with zero resistance, and she's resumed her duties as Forest medium thanks to Coyote throwing a temper tantrum. And don't forget, Anthony only made her quit that job because the court was going to exile her over it. Like, his total emotional disconnection and insensitivity are absolutely hurting her. No one questions this. But pretty much all of the big changes he's imposed on her were all explicitly done for her benefit. The actual problem with what he's done here is his inability to connect to her and actually talk with her like a regular person. If he'd just come up to her and told her why she couldn't go to the forest anymore and why he didn't want her hanging around Renard, most of the shit people are all angry at him over wouldn't have happened. But because he just demanded that she accept all these changes, making them seem like arbitrary impositions, he came across like Hitler Dad. That doesn't excuse his abominable treatment of her in his first appearance in science class. But, literally nobody, Anthony included, thought that was okay, so I don't see a point in raving about that particular incident. |
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Post by Goatmon on Nov 7, 2015 10:57:24 GMT
What you're saying amounts to shaming, in an eye-for-an-eye sense. Not sure if you're 100% aware of that, but that's absolutely the sentiment expressed here. And it's really not the way to go. I think Anthony's treatment of Antimony when he first appeared made it pretty clear that shaming doesn't actually accomplish anything except hurt people. She is absolutely in the right to hate him for what he's done, but forgiveness is the only thing that will actually lead to either of them becoming happier and healthier here. Anthony couldn't forgive himself for what happened to Surma, and and look what that did to him. Lacking a father figure in her life has clearly done her more harm than good, and obviously his methods thus far have been extremely shitty. But in order to really improve as a person, he needs to let go of Surma. He needs to accept that it wasn't his fault that she died. And I don't think anyone but Antimony can really help him with that. It's not about what's good for him. Forgiving somebody before you've well and truly stopped making excuses for them, just lets you fall back into making excuses for them. It's not good for her to make his feelings her problem even if she is the best one to help. She needs to hold onto that anger at least a little longer so that she can finally internalize that she deserves better from him. She won't get a father by putting his feelings above her own. What's the use of a father figure that uses up your clarity instead of giving it you and forces you to make them feel better instead of supporting you. There is such a thing as being too early to forgive and if they never get there, she'll be healthier letting him go than if she acts like she's responsible for his happiness. You're treating Annie like she's a stable adult character. She's not. She's still a kid. Kids need their freedom, but they also need a degree of parental guidance to keep them from becoming too directionless and to make them understand consequence and responsibility. Annie had none of those things. She was slacking off school work and disrespecting authority left and right. It's what got her into so much trouble with the court to begin with. Additionally, I think we're looking at the story kinda differently. For one, I don't see all this as being about Annie, with Anthony being an extra character that can be discarded. I think his story here is important too. And now that Annie's got her head together, I don't think she's going to just continue rolling over for him. Ultimately, they're the only family they have. It's far better to better understand each other and develop a healthy relationship. I should mention that I have a shit Dad. And he's a lot more abusive and hurtful than Anthony. He's basically just swimming in hatred, for himself, for everything. If he could try to let that go, own his mistakes, and be a proper father again? I'd give him a chance in a heartbeat. But he won't do that. He's going to die miserable and alone and I'm probably never going to see him again until his funeral. I hated him for a long time. I learned to let go of those feelings. If I've learned anything from all of it, it's that clinging to anger is just poisoning yourself. Holding a grudge benefits no one. It does nothing but feed your pride. |
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Post by todd on Nov 7, 2015 12:37:49 GMT
Then Coyote came, and the Court immediately turned on their word, throwing Tony in front of him as a meatshield, all the while begging him to let Annie back to the forest. One of the Court's lowest actions. They hid behind a broken, traumatized man whom they used; evidently, the administration still has as much of a cowardly streak as in Diego's day. |
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Nov 7, 2015 15:47:52 GMT
(though i can tell i counted something wrong because i think there's only five books currently? and there's two different pages that both claim to be the end of the second book so i have no idea what i'm doing anymore)Tom published the first few chapters as a paperback using an on-demand printing service that he was really unhappy with. This threw off his plans for publishing a second book ending at page 293. That's why he says "if there was a second book", because he was having doubts about publishing again. He ended up publishing in the hardcover editions we know today, which are twice as long as the originally planned paperbacks. So I believe the first hardcover now ends on 293 (which was planned to end the second paperback, that was never printed) and the second hardcover ends on 558. |
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Post by goldenknots on Nov 7, 2015 18:18:15 GMT
I was wondering where is the sigil that should be on Renard's head. There should be Kat's sigil there, no? No, only in his wolf form. It looks like he shows it at will, in any given form. |
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 7, 2015 18:41:05 GMT
Without looking for sources, I think he always has it when he's in his wolf form, but can choose whether to show it or not when in his plushie form. |
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Post by dramastix on Nov 7, 2015 19:43:23 GMT
Can you name the chapters, please (am too lazy to look it up myself). I'd like to check with the books. Are those perhaps chapters at the end of a book? I also remember one time there were two bonus pages. Just went through and counted how many pages are in each online chapter, then split it up by what I'm guessing are the divisions between books (those being the treatises?). Granted it's just an imagus sieve so it simply counts how many pages are between chapter covers, but things like the city face extras generally go for two weeks and an even number anyways if I recall correctly. 1, 01-07: 16, 16, 26, 10, 16, 12, 24 2, 08-14: 28, 16, 16, 19, 28, 30, 47 3, 15-22: 26, 30, 34, 46, 32, 30, 32, 35 4, 23-31: 26, 36, 31, 26, 28, 26, 18, 28, 55 5, 32-41: 26, 30, 48, 26, 28, 24, 30, 36, 36, 50 6, 42-49: 26, 30 ,30, 32, 26, 32, 28, 82 7, 50-??: 22, 22, 26, 30, 24, 2? (though i can tell i counted something wrong because i think there's only five books currently? and there's two different pages that both claim to be the end of the second book so i have no idea what i'm doing anymore)Because I have the books and don't feel like studying yet: V1, 1-14: 16, 16, 26, 10, 16, 12, 24, 28, 16, 16, 18, 28, 30, 36 V2, 15-22: 26, 30, 34, 44, 32, 30, 32, 24 V3, 23-31: 26, 36, 30, 26, 28, 26, 18, 28, 43 (! - with a black page before the treatise, even though there wasn't a bonus page) V4, 32-41: 24, 30, 48, 26, 28, 24, 30, 36, 36, 38 V5, 42-49: 26, 30, 30, 32, 26, 32, 28, 71 I didn't include the City Face bits, just title page-chapter-bonus page. Treatises usually took the place of a bonus page, with the exception of V3. So... two chapters with odd-numbered pages, both at the ends of books, unless I counted incorrectly, but at any rate they're all even-numbered. Never occurred to me that Tom was planning that far ahead with the comic. I remember there being two bonus pages one time as well, but I was going through the chapters too quickly to notice which one it was. So... I'm guessing either two bonus pages for this chapter (one with Annie, one with Tony, perhaps?), or Tom'll just include an extra black page to keep things tidy. |
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Post by Trillium on Nov 7, 2015 20:14:48 GMT
Yeah, Coyote knocked down a building, and what did Tony say to that? He asked how she could be safe around a capricious god.
If he was sufficiently unafraid to talk back to Coyote when Coyote was actually right in front of him, why on Earth would he be scared now? Nope. It's not the building that changed his mind.
Good point. My thought then is that the court doesn't want Coyote to do anymore destruction, so possibly they told Anthony that he was to be more compliant so as to not upset Coyote further. Either way, my main point is I don't think he's afraid of her like someone suggested. Before Coyote told Anthony that Annie was safe and loved in the Forest he also told Anthony the only person who would be sorry to see him gone/eaten was Fire Head Girl. It was after the whole discussion that Tony had his internal struggle and allowed that Annie could go back to the Forest. Now that she has successfully returned from the Forest and keeping in mind that Annie does care about him perhaps Anthony is re-evaluating his relationship to Annie. Giving back Renard might be a peace offering on the road to a better relationship. |
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Post by speedwell on Nov 7, 2015 21:44:22 GMT
Good point. My thought then is that the court doesn't want Coyote to do anymore destruction, so possibly they told Anthony that he was to be more compliant so as to not upset Coyote further. Either way, my main point is I don't think he's afraid of her like someone suggested. Before Coyote told Anthony that Annie was safe and loved in the Forest he also told Anthony the only person who would be sorry to see him gone/eaten was Fire Head Girl. It was after the whole discussion that Tony had his internal struggle and allowed that Annie could go back to the Forest. Now that she has successfully returned from the Forest and keeping in mind that Annie does care about him perhaps Anthony is re-evaluating his relationship to Annie. Giving back Renard might be a peace offering on the road to a better relationship. Jesus, if he takes Coyote that seriously, he is perhaps re-evaluating his relationship with his former friends. Fortunately I think we know better (and think better of Donald and Anja, in particular). |
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quark
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Post by quark on Nov 7, 2015 22:41:05 GMT
Before Coyote told Anthony that Annie was safe and loved in the Forest he also told Anthony the only person who would be sorry to see him gone/eaten was Fire Head Girl. It was after the whole discussion that Tony had his internal struggle and allowed that Annie could go back to the Forest. Now that she has successfully returned from the Forest and keeping in mind that Annie does care about him perhaps Anthony is re-evaluating his relationship to Annie. Giving back Renard might be a peace offering on the road to a better relationship. Jesus, if he takes Coyote that seriously, he is perhaps re-evaluating his relationship with his former friends. Fortunately I think we know better (and think better of Donald and Anja, in particular). Well, Coyote is no liar, therein... Yes, yes, I know, quoting Jones is old, but I got the impression that Donald and Anthony grew apart. Well, Donald distanced himself from Anthony, but it still counts - he's been Anthony's best defender, as seen in Divine. I think he resents Anthony for that role, and for the way he treated Antimony - he went drinking with Anthony, but mostly so Annie could see what's up. He's more Annie's friend than Anthony's now, and while I think he would be sad if he died, he would mourn for a friend who has been dead for a long time. Maybe it was Coyote's 'In the forest she is loved and she is safe' - Surma was very much aware how much of a toll her sickness had on Anthony, and on the relationship between her daughter and him. Maybe she said something of the sort before she died - "make sure she is loved and she is safe". Anthony might have tried to fulfil his promise by taking her to the court (safe) and, in extension, to the Donlans (loved). When Coyote told him that she is neither under his care, that might have lead to a tiny epiphany. Or, also a pet theory: He's a lot of things, but he's not dumb. He might have figured out that Annie never really transferred ownership of Renard to him (especially since he knows she could force him out of his toy form, that she showed to the adults as soon as she figured out who he was). So, Annie did two things - she defied him, and she lied to him, and he thinks he's doing it all for her benefit. So, he might not think her worthy of his protection. |
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Post by TBeholder on Nov 8, 2015 4:21:43 GMT
Wait, what? Edit: No, seriously, what just happened? NOW Tom is trolling. See the difference?  |
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Post by sherni on Nov 8, 2015 15:14:17 GMT
On a lighter note, what would be a good soundtrack for this chapter? A record needle scratch? A balloon deflating? Fireworks fizzling out?
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Post by Per on Nov 8, 2015 15:36:03 GMT
Remember that it will read very differently in a book, where the reader will not be required to go through a few pages of forum speculation in between the title page and the comic page.
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Post by The Anarch on Nov 8, 2015 16:28:48 GMT
On a lighter note, what would be a good soundtrack for this chapter? A record needle scratch? A balloon deflating? Fireworks fizzling out? |
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Post by TBeholder on Nov 8, 2015 21:57:30 GMT
Thought 3: Does anyone else sense a bit of repressed anger and jealousy in Anthony's abrupt manner, as if to say, "Well, if you're going to run to the Forest like that, you've chosen your own road and you can make your own mistakes without my help"? Maybe not. Or he's still too dazed after the last little incident, and doesn't know what to say - even more than before, that is. Thought 4: Why was Anthony so ready to hand over Renard? I think we all assumed simple frustration, but there's got to be more to the story than that. (Is that even really Renard? She's gazing at his face in a really odd manner, and we don't see anything on it this page.) There's guilt, and Annie may be struggling to believe it was really this easy... like pressing with the whole body's weight at the door and oops, it's open. If she didn't forget to turn ether-sight on this time, possibly sees Renard's expression, or his new mark. Lots of possibilities. Her father knows she will get him back if she wants and refusing her will only make her come up with a ridiculously elaborate plan that might cause trouble for him and/or with the court for them but she'll get renard back no matter. So he just handed Renard over. Cut out the middleman (or middle-events) I'd agree, but doubt Anthony's ability to think straight enough for that. Scenario for the extras page: I won't argue that it's impossible at this point, but probably not. |
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Post by keef on Nov 8, 2015 23:12:32 GMT
On a lighter note, what would be a good soundtrack for this chapter? A record needle scratch? A balloon deflating? Fireworks fizzling out? |
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Post by darththulhu on Nov 9, 2015 4:22:14 GMT
Being allowed to see your serial-killer friend again after being cut off from him for being an increasingly-arrogant juvenile delinquent qualifies as both a Present and a Favor. Come on. Renard isn't a serial killer. People have argued this over and over and over. I'm relatively new to reading or commenting in the fora, so I haven't seen this argued Once, let alone over and over and over. Such are the joys of the Internet. Every single moment since Renard got his "body-swapping murder" power from Coyote, he has either 1) promptly used that murder-swap power to murder-swap into other people's bodies, or 2) been firmly imprisoned in one manner or another such that he lacked any opportunity to swap into other people's bodies, or 3) attempted to murder-swap but been foiled ... the attempt on Antimony would have succeeded had not the Court Protector been luckily on the scene to intervene. Yes, yes, he feels so very terrible about trying to murder-swap Antimony, and he also feels so very terrible about murder-swapping Daniel (while feeling Zero Guilt about Sivo, who apparently had it coming). But the thing that Actually Matters as far as Renard's murder-swap behavior goes is that he already felt so very terrible about Daniel when the opportunity to murder-swap into Antimony came up, and he even knew Antimony's identity, and yet he still immediately tried to murder-swap Antimony anyway, when given a clear opportunity. The very moment Renard has seen a viable shot to murder-swap, he has always tried to do so. Each of three times now, despite the guilt. Maybe "serial killer" is the incorrect term for his relentlessly-opportunistic murder-swap behavior, but for a presumably-immortal being who will keep getting opportunities every decade or so, there needs to be a term significantly stronger than "Annie's best buddy and pal" to describe him and his lack of freedom, Kat's indignant emoting notwithstanding. "Spree Killer" sounds superior, in that it properly conveys the fact that he keeps going for it, even when he already knows the consequences and already feels guilty about his previous efforts. "The moment he gets a shot, he takes it" fits the Spree designation well. He did, of course, relish what the killings enabled him to do: 1) Woo Surma, 2) Delay Capture, and 3) Escape Captivity (effort thwarted). Whenever he has a chance to use Kat's misguided "do whatever you need to" loophole, we can be certain that murder-swapping will enable him to 4) Avoid Injury ... so there is not yet any reason to be certain he won't immediately leap at using the power as immediately as he already has three times already. That puts you significantly ahead of many, who seem to join Kat in unalloyed emotive outrage that anyone these days ever does anything that severely restrains the freedom of her buddy Renard. It is difficult to come up with convincing arguments that Antimony wasn't well over a year into behaving like an increasingly-arrogant juvenile delinquent, with an expanding sense of entitlement and a breezy assurance that none of her school's policies actually applied to her if she didn't wish them to. |
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Post by darththulhu on Nov 9, 2015 4:37:49 GMT
Without looking for sources, I think he always has it when he's in his wolf form, but can choose whether to show it or not when in his plushie form. Likewise, "PUPPY RENARD!" form and "Skankplush Adonis" form have always been depicted with it. But the immobile toy default mode has frequently not had the marking. |
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Post by darththulhu on Nov 9, 2015 4:59:05 GMT
If you don't mean to say that Anthony slammed the door in Antimony's face, you should not literally write: "He totally slammed the door on her". I could stop to make a case for why my figurative wording follows common language usage patterns, but honestly, does that matter? Yes, it does. Contemporary "common language usage patterns" generally default to unconvincingly trying to make wangst-filled mountains out of trivial molehills (q.v. nearly every bit of pathetic "drama" in every reality show ever). By contrast, in a work of mystery (and occasional horror), What Was Actually Shown By The Creator matters vastly more. Talking about What Was Shown will be significantly more productive if it actually talks about What Was Actually Shown. I wasn't the initial responder (nor the only person) who took "totally slammed the door on her" as it was literally written. That was Per.One million dollars (nonsequential unmarked bills) |
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Post by Daedalus on Nov 9, 2015 6:17:24 GMT
but honestly, does that matter? Honestly, no. <wangst> [posts like yours] generally default to unconvincingly trying to make wangst-filled mountains out of trivial molehills </wangst> Ironic, no?  No need to be that way, especially since setrain cleared up what they said. There is no need for an argument here, jeez. I invoke Rule 1. |
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Post by rafk on Nov 9, 2015 7:12:50 GMT
Having had a weekend to get over the surprise, I will note that we didn't properly see the events that led to Annie being allowed back to the forest, but even CoyoteVision showed a major effect on Tony. We don't know precisely how he has changed, but we shouldn't be too surprised here. Or to learn that Coyote's intervention has shaken up other characters too.
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Post by speedwell on Nov 9, 2015 8:03:21 GMT
Wait, what? Edit: No, seriously, what just happened? NOW Tom is trolling. See the difference? Now that the new Monday page is posted, NOW Tom is trolling. And don't we adore it. |
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