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Post by aline on Aug 27, 2015 5:59:29 GMT
I didn't read all six pages of comments already posted, so sorry if I'm repeating something others already said, but:
- I'm reminded of Jone's comments many chapters ago, that the Headmaster is hiding something: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1155 There's probably more to "this business with the forest" than meets the eye. The Court has a specific reason for wanting to keep Annie far away from the Forest.
- While Tony certainly took disciplinary action in order to protect Antimony from the threats made by the Court, I doubt it was the Court that spelled out the details of those actions or somehow forced him to "show coldness". We already know Tony has never been an overly emotional family man, and he was probably more on the strict side from the start. Faced with the threats over his daughter's head, he simply decided to straighten up her life for her.
- Him communicating with Annie about all this is probably something the Court doesn't want to see. But that's something Anthony could get around if he wanted to. He doesn't talk to her out a misguided attempt to get her life in order for her as if she were still 4, and not 14. And because after all he's gone through, he can't really handle being near her. |
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guyy
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Post by guyy on Aug 27, 2015 6:36:10 GMT
I'm having such mixed feelings about Gunnerkrigg these days... first there was "that" chapter, which was emotionally overwhelming in a good way at first, but went so overboard and got so bleak that it almost seemed like the author was sabotaging his own characters. The next chapter was better, reminding us that Annie has other people in her life who aren't terrible, and I certainly didn't see the literally split personality thing coming; still isn't clear how that's going to play out, so it should be interesting.
But now we have this... if nothing else, "Dad who is bad but actually it wasn't his fault for contrived reasons, also here's some angst to make you forget that he's a jerk" is kind of cliche, falling into the general tendency of (older) male heroic characters to be broody and difficult and sometimes evil but always secretly pure-hearted. It's also unsettling, because there's an obscene number of real dads/mothers who treat their daughters/sons with just as much heartlessness and control-freak-ness, and they're not doing it because of shady government agents. Who's ever heard of a dad being blackmailed into acting like a drill sergeant? But most of you have probably met one who does so just because he can.
In real life, there's almost never a compelling and blame-erasing reason why a parent treats their child horribly. Usually it's something boring and common that can't be fixed, and the child shouldn't have to deal with it if there's any alternative. Mental illness, or alcoholism, or maybe being abused by their own parents 20 years ago. In a story focused on those kinds of issues, you could do something with them; but I get the impression that Annie's the protagonist here, and Gunnerkrigg had been very appropriate for readers of around Annie's age up until this point. But now... Maybe I'll be proven wrong by the rest of this chapter, but I don't like where this is headed.
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Aug 27, 2015 7:04:32 GMT
"Dad who is bad but actually it wasn't his fault for contrived reasons I'm sorry you decided to hate Anthony and now you can't completely do that anymore, but that's not the author's problem, it's your's. |
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Pig_catapult
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Post by Pig_catapult on Aug 27, 2015 7:06:27 GMT
* Separating her from Kat/putting her in that Big Box Room? Ya got me there. I dunno. I guess it'd be much harder to fill a room like that with deadly neurotoxin through the vent system while Annie sleeps? Harder to fill the room... but easier to fill the room without risking killing anyone else. (And who are the two most likely possibilities for the "anyone else"?) On the other hand, we have no reason to think the *current* court leadership is that vicious. Location-tracking nanites. Annie just needs to be alone in her-and-Kat's dorm long enough for the hermetic seals to engage, locking her in... (Honestly "harder to fill with deadly neurotoxin" was just the first ridiculous thing I came up with off the top of my head and I'd be very, very surprised if that turns out to be the case. Delighted at my hopefully-not-poisoned cookies, but very, very surprised.) |
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quark
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Post by quark on Aug 27, 2015 7:09:35 GMT
It's NOT made clear that he believed that he even had a shot of saving her. If anything, my point's stronger because of this.Over-emphasizing his abilities is a laughable claim given what the comic has relayed to us. But no matter how much I point out that a surgeon doesn't just give up, that a husband doesn't just give up, that a man about to lose something dear to him doesn't just give up, the forum's resident anti-Tonys pop out to claim it's hubris and illusions of grandeur that make him do what he does. That he's egomaniacal, vain, or otherwise. Is EVERY SINGLE story where a man attempts to resurrect or save his wife a story of vanity? If so, I've missed out on that terrific, stone-set literary connection. I certainly wouldn't see my father as vain if he were attempting to save his wife. Okay, that's really... the opposite of what I would say, and I think it relates how different our experiences are. No, not every story where somebody tries to resurrect/save their loved ones is a story of vanity, but those people are in very different situations. Orpheus didn't have children. Odysseus was separated from wife and child, and fought to get back to them both. Simon gave up his career for River, but it's made clear that she is much more important to him. Anthony's story looks like theirs, and all the pain he goes through makes it look very similar, but it's really not. Not only because he isn't successful, that's just the cherry on top. No, he had a greater duty. He had a child, who needed him, who even could have helped him, and he went away letting her believe it's because of something she did. He can love Antimony all he wants, but he always prioritised his love for Surma, his pain of losing her, his efforts in getting her back, and if he doesn't believe he has a shot, he basically sacrifices his daughter for not even a chance at saving his wife. He didn't do anything to alleviate Antimony's pain, on the contrary, he added to it because he couldn't take the five seconds out of his day to tell her that he was going away, that he loved her but had important business to take care of and not to wait for him.
So, a case of very screwed up priorities, you say, but vain? Yes, it's vain and egocentric. Vain, because he can't face that he wasn't successful, that for once, he wasn't good enough - he couldn't save Surma. Instead of facing that fact, and facing everyone who knows him or even might blame him for Surmas death (Eglamore? Rey? Antimony?) and accepting help (that guy needed help even before he went on the journey - grief counselling or whatever) to be there for his daughter, he goes on, believing if he just applied himself enough, he could do the impossible. Egocentric because of the reasons I mentioned before - if you don't have a child, go on a self-destructive journey to save your wife all you want, but he has a daughter who needed him. Crazy journeys to the end of the world just have to wait until she's old enough.
Obligatory Disclaimer: No, I don't believe he is irredeemable. No, I don't think he's the evil incarnated, he's just very screwed up. No, I don't want him to die a fiery death f doom. Yes, I know people aren't perfect, but these are the priorities in life you have to get right - crazy journey to maybe save your wife or care for your daughter. That's easy. |
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Post by speedwell on Aug 27, 2015 7:23:06 GMT
To those of you who are willing to sit and coldly condemn Tony still: you must have very blessed lives, to have not experienced much in the way of grief nor to have broken relationships that you valued beyond repair that you are unwilling or unable to commiserate with Tony at least in part. I wonder what you will do once it happens. I'm nearly fifty years old. You don't get to be this age without having the reset button pressed on your life a few times, sorry. I don't commiserate with Tony for the simple reason that I have been through horror and pain and troubles and abuse without losing sight of what's really important, and I dragged myself back from the edge, usually without help, to participate in life and love in a healthy way again. I didn't "forget"; I didn't "move on". In short, I accepted, without condoning, the reality that was not my fault, and took responsibility for my own actions. Tony is a full-grown man, likely around forty (or even older, considering his professional status). It's time for him to grow up, seek and accept help, and make an effort to act like a warm, loving, human instead of a schizotypal loose cannon who forces his friends to make excuses for him. Don't confuse condemning the man's behavior with condemning the man. If I was one of his friends, it would be tearing me apart to see how he is suffering, and I would stand ready to take his hand the minute he extended it. But you can't do anything for someone who is absolutely convinced that their malfunction is optimal functioning and your efforts to create order and warmth in their life are uncomfortable and unwelcome. Perhaps this scene is Anthony reaching out to Donny (who is the model of sanity and maturity). If that's the case, Anthony still has quite a lot of work to do before I can characterize him as anything but "unfatherly". Even if he has to "fake it till he makes it". |
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Post by mishyana on Aug 27, 2015 7:57:07 GMT
I guess it'd be much harder to fill a room like that with deadly neurotoxin Heh. Nah, they just wanted to make sure she was comfortable while they warmed up the neurotoxin emitters. |
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arzeik
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Post by arzeik on Aug 27, 2015 9:31:42 GMT
I would say she's not the only thing he cared about during his three years of absence. The difference between 'care s' and 'care d'. You might have noticed something happening to Anthony in the last moments of his adventure, had you paid attention. I didn't say in my post that he doesn't care about her at the moment. Quite on the contrary. But I still doubt she is the only thing, even now; and I don't think his way of handling the current situation is the best possible way. I mean, come on, for what we know: has he even tried talking to her instead of leaving her wondering why his own father despises her until someone takes a blinker stone in his pocket to let her see what's actually inside his father's mind? In any case, that doesn't change a bit the rest of what i said in my post. |
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Post by fish on Aug 27, 2015 11:22:07 GMT
Actually in today's comments the put-downs directed at "Tony haters" far outnumber the "he's still an asshole" comments, with about 300 people in between pointing out the typo. Most of "Tony hater quotes", however, are actual quotes. Monday's strip had several people saying "I wish you had died in the wilderness, too". More pleasantly, it looks like the moderators snipped Proper today (they always went ballistic), and they've finally started to overwrite Meishuu, who was one of two hyperregular "none of you defenders understand basic morality" posters. Like I said: Un-HINGED I have always been under the impression that Tom was the only one wading through the comments before approving them one by one, without really leaving out any of them. Has this changed or was I wrong? GK Sierra, are you moderating the comments as well? |
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Post by todd on Aug 27, 2015 12:41:24 GMT
I am still not sure that discovering how to and freeing Jeanne is going to be a good thing - Jeanne is clearly there to keep etheric beings OUT. The words of Jones keep coming back to me: "one is as bad as the other". If the Court is this petty and cruel, then the Forest is not going to be any better. I think that Surma and friends did the same investigation thing back a generation ago, and for whatever reason, they chose to bury the knowledge they had (or didn't get as far). I do think Annie will free Jeanne before the end of this comic - but the consequences are going to be unhappy. That doesn't change the fact that the Court murdered Jeanne - and it wasn't even purely out of protecting itself from the forest, but also Diego's mean-spirited and cowardly way of getting revenge on her for turning him down - and forced her ghost to be its guardian. I might think better of the Court if it had at least explored other ways of solving the problem with the forest (talking with the forest-folk, or going somewhere else to live, for example). |
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 27, 2015 13:18:14 GMT
It's NOT made clear that he believed that he even had a shot of saving her. If anything, my point's stronger because of this.Over-emphasizing his abilities is a laughable claim given what the comic has relayed to us. But no matter how much I point out that a surgeon doesn't just give up, that a husband doesn't just give up, that a man about to lose something dear to him doesn't just give up, the forum's resident anti-Tonys pop out to claim it's hubris and illusions of grandeur that make him do what he does. That he's egomaniacal, vain, or otherwise. Is EVERY SINGLE story where a man attempts to resurrect or save his wife a story of vanity? If so, I've missed out on that terrific, stone-set literary connection. I certainly wouldn't see my father as vain if he were attempting to save his wife. Okay, that's really... the opposite of what I would say, and I think it relates how different our experiences are. No, not every story where somebody tries to resurrect/save their loved ones is a story of vanity, but those people are in very different situations. Orpheus didn't have children. Odysseus was separated from wife and child, and fought to get back to them both. Simon gave up his career for River, but it's made clear that she is much more important to him. Anthony's story looks like theirs, and all the pain he goes through makes it look very similar, but it's really not. Not only because he isn't successful, that's just the cherry on top. No, he had a greater duty. He had a child, who needed him, who even could have helped him, and he went away letting her believe it's because of something she did. He can love Antimony all he wants, but he always prioritised his love for Surma, his pain of losing her, his efforts in getting her back, and if he doesn't believe he has a shot, he basically sacrifices his daughter for not even a chance at saving his wife. He didn't do anything to alleviate Antimony's pain, on the contrary, he added to it because he couldn't take the five seconds out of his day to tell her that he was going away, that he loved her but had important business to take care of and not to wait for him.
So, a case of very screwed up priorities, you say, but vain? Yes, it's vain and egocentric. Vain, because he can't face that he wasn't successful, that for once, he wasn't good enough - he couldn't save Surma. Instead of facing that fact, and facing everyone who knows him or even might blame him for Surmas death (Eglamore? Rey? Antimony?) and accepting help (that guy needed help even before he went on the journey - grief counselling or whatever) to be there for his daughter, he goes on, believing if he just applied himself enough, he could do the impossible. Egocentric because of the reasons I mentioned before - if you don't have a child, go on a self-destructive journey to save your wife all you want, but he has a daughter who needed him. Crazy journeys to the end of the world just have to wait until she's old enough.
Obligatory Disclaimer: No, I don't believe he is irredeemable. No, I don't think he's the evil incarnated, he's just very screwed up. No, I don't want him to die a fiery death f doom. Yes, I know people aren't perfect, but these are the priorities in life you have to get right - crazy journey to maybe save your wife or care for your daughter. That's easy. Acknowledged, and accepted. Tony screwed up big time because he set aside very real responsibilities. And here's the but which will make me seem not only argumentative, but sociopathic: "But, quark, is there an objective rule that someone must give up on their dead wife and spend their life with a daughter that effectively killed her?" Even having written that, I feel sick, because I'm " sure" I would make the " right" choice to protect my children in the event of my wife's passing, should the situation ever arise. But I don't know how I'll be down the road, and I don't know how much of my mind is twisted away from logic and toward desperation and fruitless hope. And it becomes a matter of who receives more love: my wife, who I hear through the grapevine could truly be brought back at some cost (though this information came from very questionable sources), or my children, a directly involved component in the significant other's demise. If it's a matter of love, is it " wrong" to have a deeper bond with someone I married? If it's a matter of responsibility, do I have to make choices that say I'm not just letting go, I'm shutting down any possibility of reclaiming what was lost, when the possibility was actually there?My tone, I hope, has changed. I earnestly want opinions on what others think of love, rights, and responsibility. Consider this: should Tony have reclaimed Surma, and Antimony spared the bone laser surgery that made it all so deadly, would the family be capable of being happy again? Was he truly wrong for giving up chances to contact Annie for the sparse years she was in boarding school in order to try and make his family whole again? |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Aug 27, 2015 13:58:32 GMT
But now we have this... if nothing else, "Dad who is bad but actually it wasn't his fault for contrived reasons, also here's some angst to make you forget that he's a jerk" is kind of cliche, falling into the general tendency of (older) male heroic characters to be broody and difficult and sometimes evil but always secretly pure-hearted. I think you are confusing "sympathetic" with "justified". This chapter makes Anthony a more sympathetic character, but he's still flawed and he's still responsible for abandoning Antimony in the first place. Tom shouldn't have to spell this stuff out. |
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Post by pxc on Aug 27, 2015 14:01:50 GMT
My tone, I hope, has changed. I earnestly want opinions on what others think of love, rights, and responsibility. Consider this: should Tony have reclaimed Surma, and Antimony spared the bone laser surgery that made it all so deadly, would the family be capable of being happy again? Was he truly wrong for giving up chances to contact Annie for the sparse years she was in boarding school in order to try and make his family whole again? Credit to you for showing more willingness to see another point of view for a bit, and perhaps even modify your own some. I don't mean to answer for quark, who has done an excellent job articulating responses lately. Just my own take. I can't remove the dangerous variables as you suggest, it changes the situation too much. But I can envision an alternate scenario in which Anthony consoles his daughter and joins her in mourning the loss of Surma. And, after a time, he tells her of her mother's wish that she go to school at GKC, that it's the same school he and Surma went to as kids, that they still have friends there and that she will make friends and learn and live an interesting life. And while she's there, he is going on a hard journey. He won't be able to talk to her much, if at all, while he's away. Maybe he'd say what the work is, maybe not. But simply taking the time to help his daughter through her grief, and then set her expectations going forward, would have IMO gone a long way toward her long-term emotional and mental health and stability during these formative years. Given the reality of the GK universe, it isn't as insane to try what he tried. Death isn't seemingly quite as final for those in GK as it is in our reality. But the damage done by leaving the way he did, and staying gone the way he did, is I think very similar to how it would be in a vaguely similar situation in our world. |
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 27, 2015 17:01:41 GMT
My tone, I hope, has changed. I earnestly want opinions on what others think of love, rights, and responsibility. Consider this: should Tony have reclaimed Surma, and Antimony spared the bone laser surgery that made it all so deadly, would the family be capable of being happy again? Was he truly wrong for giving up chances to contact Annie for the sparse years she was in boarding school in order to try and make his family whole again? Credit to you for showing more willingness to see another point of view for a bit, and perhaps even modify your own some. I don't mean to answer for quark, who has done an excellent job articulating responses lately. Just my own take. I can't remove the dangerous variables as you suggest, it changes the situation too much. But I can envision an alternate scenario in which Anthony consoles his daughter and joins her in mourning the loss of Surma. And, after a time, he tells her of her mother's wish that she go to school at GKC, that it's the same school he and Surma went to as kids, that they still have friends there and that she will make friends and learn and live an interesting life. And while she's there, he is going on a hard journey. He won't be able to talk to her much, if at all, while he's away. Maybe he'd say what the work is, maybe not. But simply taking the time to help his daughter through her grief, and then set her expectations going forward, would have IMO gone a long way toward her long-term emotional and mental health and stability during these formative years. Given the reality of the GK universe, it isn't as insane to try what he tried. Death isn't seemingly quite as final for those in GK as it is in our reality. But the damage done by leaving the way he did, and staying gone the way he did, is I think very similar to how it would be in a vaguely similar situation in our world. We can certainly agree on this. Let's hope that the long-term damage can be mitigated and perhaps healed, rather than worsened, by the upcoming events. |
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Post by Bandolute on Aug 27, 2015 17:42:18 GMT
I wonder if those shady dudes from back then are the same shady dudes that approached Anthony? They seemed to have dressed down for the hospital visit if so. |
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Post by pxc on Aug 27, 2015 18:35:37 GMT
I wonder if those shady dudes from back then are the same shady dudes that approached Anthony? They seemed to have dressed down for the hospital visit if so. Casual Friday. |
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Post by keef on Aug 27, 2015 20:54:02 GMT
I wonder if those shady dudes from back then are the same shady dudes that approached Anthony? They seemed to have dressed down for the hospital visit if so. We just don't know if the Court handles stuff like this with their own employees, or just hires some goons when and where they're needed. They send Jones to collect little Jimmy Eglamore, Tony himself was doing work for the Court while Surma was in Good Hope. Maybe many former students are working for the Court. And welcome Bandolute! |
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guyy
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Post by guyy on Aug 27, 2015 21:10:21 GMT
"Dad who is bad but actually it wasn't his fault for contrived reasons I'm sorry you decided to hate Anthony and now you can't completely do that anymore, but that's not the author's problem, it's your's. Wow. Okay. I thought there was a forum rule about not being a jerk? Though I suppose no one actually enforces that anymore... I'll reserve judgment on the comic itself for a little bit longer, but if you guys are just going to call me an idiot for not immediately deciding that Tony is a great person and that there's absolutely nothing unsatisfying about the way this bit of the story is written... I really don't want to hear it, so I'll be going now. Sorry. |
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Post by hellohello on Aug 27, 2015 21:52:20 GMT
I'm sorry you decided to hate Anthony and now you can't completely do that anymore, but that's not the author's problem, it's your's. Wow. Okay. I thought there was a forum rule about not being a jerk? Though I suppose no one actually enforces that anymore... I'll reserve judgment on the comic itself for a little bit longer, but if you guys are just going to call me an idiot for not immediately deciding that Tony is a great person and that there's absolutely nothing unsatisfying about the way this bit of the story is written... I really don't want to hear it, so I'll be going now. Sorry. Our moderation is generally easy going - look to the moderated comic page comments. If it really bothers you, report it. Though there's no reason to respond to jerkness with further jerkitude. "You guys" in response to one person? You'll notice a good portion of the forum doesn't think Tony is a great guy, so besides zbeeblebrox, I've no idea who you're talking to. Painting a whole forum of people as bad guys because of one poster is a bit silly, you know? |
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Post by keef on Aug 27, 2015 22:24:59 GMT
I'm sorry you decided to hate Anthony and now you can't completely do that anymore, but that's not the author's problem, it's your's. If that was what he was saying, then you would be right. But he isn't. Wow. Okay. I thought there was a forum rule about not being a jerk? That's the rule. If we succeed in doing so, we don't need moderators. |
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Aug 27, 2015 22:31:15 GMT
I'm sorry you decided to hate Anthony and now you can't completely do that anymore, but that's not the author's problem, it's your's. Wow. Okay. I thought there was a forum rule about not being a jerk? Though I suppose no one actually enforces that anymore... I'll reserve judgment on the comic itself for a little bit longer, but if you guys are just going to call me an idiot for not immediately deciding that Tony is a great person and that there's absolutely nothing unsatisfying about the way this bit of the story is written... I really don't want to hear it, so I'll be going now. Sorry. I'm not calling anybody an idiot, I'm just making an observation: audience reactions to stories are not some kind of concrete fact, they're internal and vary between people, ergo your personal response is not universal and you shouldn't apply it back to the quality of the comic as if your negative emotional reaction is somehow a weakness of the narrative. That's why I quoted what I did, so you'd understand where you made your mistake. Don't take it so personally. I don't attack people, I attack their words. Always have and always will. |
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Post by Bandolute on Aug 28, 2015 1:16:32 GMT
Haha, thanks! I've been lurking on the forums since the Tree, but I've been a reader for something like five years. Hope I can contribute stuff to the discussion in the future. |
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Post by rafk on Aug 28, 2015 8:41:36 GMT
So the Court is terrible and Gillitie Forest is terrible. Rock, meet hard place. We have known that for ages, though. Coyote's position as villain (not the Forest as a whole, which seems fine) was sealed when he mindscrewed Ysengrin and the Court in Skywatcher and the Angel. GC is the story of the reasonable people who brought balance to the Ether by taking a third option and rejecting both sides. |
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 28, 2015 10:34:02 GMT
We still have no idea how the Court even gets people into it. We know they have Men In Black agents willing to go out into the world and track down potential students (as shown with Zimmy), yet we haven't seen any of these students actually enter the Court via transportation. Harry Potter had the magic train hidden in platform 9 3/4, Gunnerkrigg Court hasn't shown us anything about how people on the outside get in. It's entirely possible it can't even be located on a map So what? Annie is a polyglot. And quite obviously can see ghosts. And knows her way around both hospitals and forests, for that matter. Contacting a friendly etheric entity may take her minutes. Then what? She would send a message to Coyote. And maybe, just to pass time, start digging under the Court - say, by sending her belated apologies to Chang'e. And what would Coyote do if deprived on this much amusement - sit on his rump moping? It's not in his habits. Again, Jonathan and anyone helping him would have their confidence washed away with cold sweat every time they see the Moon or hear a mention thereof. And what dozens of people in the Court doting on Annie will do? Nod and smile? No, it doesn't make sense other than a ridiculous bluff only someone as far from "in the know" as Tony could be expected to swallow. if the Court wanted to they could force her powerless with a ether-computer wrap-around-the-body spell they've used to capture etheric beings in the past Oooh! That's a great idea. Exactly who should be trusted to do this - Donlans, Suttons, James or Jack?  Getting expelled from the Court wouldn't exactly be the end of the world, Evidently, for Anthony it is. and Annie's been drifting towards the Forest for the entire story. Anthony doesn't know this and doesn't want to know this - or anything. He even cut Annie off when she tried to tell him. It's the situation "no point to argue with a madman, unless you just want to buy time". I don't see these patterns. We have an extremely limited and selective record of Anthony's actions, thoughts and motivations, from his life at the Court through the time at the hospital to the long quest. He didn't even allow possibility that maybe, he cannot save Surma and (consistently enough) made it into "ALL MY FAULT!!!" - while Surma, as implied by his own words, didn't even bother planning for any contingency or possibility other than she will die there? That's when big red warning lights marked "delusion of omnipotence" and "selective obliviousness" started blinking. They go on page after page, and didn't stop yet. Jonathan, judging by this "expulsion" bluff, knows about this Anthony's trait too, and relies on it. it's also about controlling Tony. He must really have driven them nuts, because everything we have seen about him prior to this point suggests that he had his own agenda and no one but maybe Surma was a party to it. Yes. But then there needs to be a reason why anyone in the Court except Donlans and Annie want to see him again at all. Otherwise, do those plans matter if Anthony just runs in circles in the wilderness somewhere far away until he gets himself killed? Usually I am not a fan of this kind of wrapping up a complex story, but I love it here. Just the way Tom draws fire-Annie's expressions in the last pages. I continue to assume exasperated "You..!" or "Nghhhhh!" as Fire-Annie's speech in every panel where she appears. It still fits perfectly. |
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quark
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Post by quark on Aug 28, 2015 12:22:15 GMT
Acknowledged, and accepted. Tony screwed up big time because he set aside very real responsibilities. And here's the but which will make me seem not only argumentative, but sociopathic: "But, quark, is there an objective rule that someone must give up on their dead wife and spend their life with a daughter that effectively killed her?" Even having written that, I feel sick, because I'm " sure" I would make the " right" choice to protect my children in the event of my wife's passing, should the situation ever arise. But I don't know how I'll be down the road, and I don't know how much of my mind is twisted away from logic and toward desperation and fruitless hope. And it becomes a matter of who receives more love: my wife, who I hear through the grapevine could truly be brought back at some cost (though this information came from very questionable sources), or my children, a directly involved component in the significant other's demise. If it's a matter of love, is it " wrong" to have a deeper bond with someone I married? If it's a matter of responsibility, do I have to make choices that say I'm not just letting go, I'm shutting down any possibility of reclaiming what was lost, when the possibility was actually there?My tone, I hope, has changed. I earnestly want opinions on what others think of love, rights, and responsibility. Consider this: should Tony have reclaimed Surma, and Antimony spared the bone laser surgery that made it all so deadly, would the family be capable of being happy again? Was he truly wrong for giving up chances to contact Annie for the sparse years she was in boarding school in order to try and make his family whole again? Thank you for your opinion! pxc put it very well - there would have been an option for this to go well, if Anthony had an open and honest communication with his daughter. Maybe even her consent, or help. And to answer your question: THAT'S A DIFFICULT QUESTION. On the topic of love: You can't be forced to love, you can't force yourself to love. If you love your spouse more than your children.. happens all the time. If you feel your children are responsible for your spouses death and can't love them - nobody can force you to. Anthony loves Surma so much that even the faintest idea of getting her back makes him leave their daughter. Is he wrong to do so? Well, it's not as if he can control his feelings. Responsibility/Duty. You have a responsibility towards your children. Keeping them safe and clothed and fed and educated. Helping them becoming the best and happiest humans they can be. Supporting and respecting them so they can stand tall. Loving them so they learn to love. Live up to their trust so they learn to trust. If you can't do that, you can let somebody else do it, but you have to provide it somehow. Anthony (or Surma) did provide the safekeeping part,but he left her with serious trust issues, especially towards adults (As evidenced by.. every time she runs off to solve everything herself instead of trusting an adult to help her). I'm not saying he doesn't love her, because he clearly does, but he doesn't show it to her, and she breaks apart every time she thinks somebody she loves will leave her. (Remember when she saw Kat and Paz kiss?). It also means her self-esteem is horrible, as evidenced by the next page (she thinks acting against Kats wishes will make Kat hate her), and the whole "The Tree" and "Sneak" chapters. She thinks she's stupid, she believes she has to be the perfect Annie for Anthony to maybe love her. She cuts out a part of her so that Anthony will like her. So, to put it together - is he wrong to love Surma more than Antimony? Well, it's not as if he can control it. Is he wrong to leave Antimony at a boarding school while looking for Surma? Probably not. Boarding schools provide a lot, and he doesn't have to worry about her safety, her basic needs, her education, her social life.. Is he wrong for looking for Surma at all - well, it's certainly very optimistic, even in the Gunnerkrigg Verse, to believe one can bring somebody back from the dead. It's mostly the self-destructive determination and completely blocking out Antimony that make this problematic. He doesn't respect Antimony, at all. He just sees her as a burden, to be dropped off. He doesn't talk with her about the death of her mother. That they both caused. He doesn't admit the guilt he feels. He doesn't even make the effort to get to know Surmas child, he didn't feel the need to even ease her transition into the Court. He didn't tell her some basic information about herself - the information that if she dies when she has a child is kind of important! If she hadn't met Rey and Coyote, nobody would have told her. He doesn't tell her why he went away - it's kind of a huge decision to bring back her mother, so she might have an opinion. And, if he were successful... would it solve everything? Probably not. Surma left Antimony with him, sure that she would die, and probably wishing that he would take care of her. It must have hurt her very much to see her husband blame her only child. No matter what her faults are, she loved Antimony and showed her love and trust - six-year-old Annie is happy to trust weird-ass creatures and fight fire with her bare hands because she trusts her mother. Sacrificing his daughter's well-being to get her back is certainly not what Surma wanted. |
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Post by atteSmythe on Aug 28, 2015 21:31:08 GMT
She would send a message to Coyote. And maybe, just to pass time, start digging under the Court - say, by sending her belated apologies to Chang'e. And what would Coyote do if deprived on this much amusement - sit on his rump moping? It's not in his habits. Again, Jonathan and anyone helping him would have their confidence washed away with cold sweat every time they see the Moon or hear a mention thereof. And what dozens of people in the Court doting on Annie will do? Nod and smile? No, it doesn't make sense other than a ridiculous bluff only someone as far from "in the know" as Tony could be expected to swallow. I don't know about this. Coyote let Reynard be imprisoned for all those years, knowing he'd been tricked. He found it amusing that Rey fell for it, and was suffering the consequences. He may well find any comeuppance of Annie's to be just as amusing. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Aug 29, 2015 0:10:10 GMT
She would send a message to Coyote. And maybe, just to pass time, start digging under the Court - say, by sending her belated apologies to Chang'e. And what would Coyote do if deprived on this much amusement - sit on his rump moping? It's not in his habits. Again, Jonathan and anyone helping him would have their confidence washed away with cold sweat every time they see the Moon or hear a mention thereof. And what dozens of people in the Court doting on Annie will do? Nod and smile? No, it doesn't make sense other than a ridiculous bluff only someone as far from "in the know" as Tony could be expected to swallow. I don't know about this. Coyote let Reynard be imprisoned for all those years, knowing he'd been tricked. He found it amusing that Rey fell for it, and was suffering the consequences. He may well find any comeuppance of Annie's to be just as amusing. Coyote knows he has very little play time with Annie before the fire passes to her daughter. Renard is ageless and Coyote can wait to see what will happen to Renard. |
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 29, 2015 3:48:46 GMT
I don't know about this. Coyote let Reynard be imprisoned for all those years, knowing he'd been tricked. He found it amusing that Rey fell for it, and was suffering the consequences. He may well find any comeuppance of Annie's to be just as amusing. Coyote knows he has very little play time with Annie before the fire passes to her daughter. Renard is ageless and Coyote can wait to see what will happen to Renard. Also, Renard held in the Court could - and did - stir things up now and then, as this provokes rescue/recapture attempts by Ysengrin and glass-eyed ones, and he tries to escape himself. Not as good as seeing him prank 'Grin, but creates possibilities and crazy incidents. Annie gone away? She just doesn't come to play, and that's it. Besides, she is his representative, he cannot let it slide. Also, he needs a Medium anyway, and Annie is the best: 'Grin roaring at the humans is a yesteryear's show, and Jonathan seems to be more inconvenienced by the prospect of seeing her in this role than by 'Grin roaring at him! In fact, he so amusingly loses it that Coyote just HAVE TO see more of this. |
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Post by gwydion on Aug 29, 2015 7:59:43 GMT
wow. Tom Sidell actually edited the page description he must be getting hate posts or something.
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Post by warrl on Aug 30, 2015 20:56:00 GMT
I don't know about this. Coyote let Reynard be imprisoned for all those years, knowing he'd been tricked. He found it amusing that Rey fell for it, and was suffering the consequences. He may well find any comeuppance of Annie's to be just as amusing. He also had given his word that he wouldn't invade the Court. Which meant he couldn't do much about Rey. If they throw Annie out, she won't be in the Court. |
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