quark
Full Member
Posts: 137
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Post by quark on Aug 26, 2015 18:29:41 GMT
Okay, one, let's start slow, with the court. Why the threat of expelling Antimony at her graduation? It's not clear if they would let her graduate, but why not, since they invested all that time and money in her. And why they would let her stay (or not at least control her) if she's such a nuisance.
If they wanted to threaten/punish her, they could have done it immediately. Directly after they could prove her cheating, which would isolate her from Kat - without Anthony in the room, that could have led to a serious falling-out. They could have threatened her directly after she went forest medium, with something like 'if you are forest medium, you aren't welcome here any more except if we officially invite you'. Maybe they wanted to control Renard, but if they wanted to do that, they could have imprisoned him again.
No, they wanted to control Anthony. That kind of threat is perfect to control somebody - it hast time (until her graduation), they determine if he fulfilled their demands, and they can still execute it whenever they want (the program is.. after her graduation, I guess?).
And, I think as soon as the Headmaster is over his ego, he sees the benefits of a court-raised and local forest medium - he can influence her as much as he wants, she sees the forest from the court's perspective. He sees EVERYTHING she does. He will have it a lot easier if he has demands or anything, because Annie understands him and the court. They aren't at war - the court and the forest exchange citizens on a regular basis! They're basically countries where crossing the border is difficult, but not impossible.
Which I think is what the court sees, but I think what they want to do is control Renard and Anthony - both are dangerous variables for the court, and Anthony even went off the rails, maybe with a dangerous device. I don't think the Omega device is something boring/to keep him away. I think they trusted him, having his daughter hostage and being the only one with the resources to give Anthony what he needs.
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Post by warrl on Aug 26, 2015 18:31:38 GMT
I see some people a tad miffed that the riddle Anthony's cruelty is so neatly solved, without leaving him 100% an abusive monster. If you consider this "neatly solved".... I'd hate to see what you consider "confused and uncertain". And I wasn't ever aware of anyone labelling Anthony an "abusive monster" anywhere except in your misrepresentations of what other people were saying. |
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Post by katsura on Aug 26, 2015 18:32:43 GMT
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 26, 2015 18:38:29 GMT
y? But yeah, my slight annoyance at this page aside, I think it's one of the first truly hopeful pages we've seen. If* Tony wants to help Annie, but is bound to follow the Court's rules, there are many positive things that could come out of this. And if there truly are no bugs in this room (which I doubt), it becomes trivially easy for Annie to chat with Tony using Elemental Form, if she so chooses. Perhaps this is the first sign of Annie coming out of her emotional catatonia. God bless you, Donny, for your gordian-knot-cutting skills. Hopefully Annie and Rey will reunite, in secret, if Tony has no personal objection? Unless Tony also harbors a separate grudge against the latter, due to his affection for Surma? (*Still an "if", though.) |
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Post by Per on Aug 26, 2015 19:10:59 GMT
Tony has established a pattern of assuming that he can accomplish whatever he sets his mind to, and that he doesn't need to consult with anyone prior to doing it. This continues even after the first assumption is proven false by Surma's death. Hence, massive ego. Hence, egomaniac. I don't see these patterns. We have an extremely limited and selective record of Anthony's actions, thoughts and motivations, from his life at the Court through the time at the hospital to the long quest. We have a near-omniscient readership condemning him as utterly stupid for ultimately attempting something they happen to know to be futile and for failing to arbitrarily seek shards of knowledge where they happen to know they have been glimpsed. If Anthony had been the focus of the story then of course things would be very different and he wouldn't be celebrated for prudence and humility if he chose to turn away from the things that are now used as proof of his inadequacy and arrogance. Apart from his later actions at the Court, which remain to be shed more light on, I mostly see him as guilty of being a square character peg in a round story hole. Of course, his eventual popularity is still inevitable.  |
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Post by Per on Aug 26, 2015 19:14:00 GMT
And I wasn't ever aware of anyone labelling Anthony an "abusive monster" anywhere except in your misrepresentations of what other people were saying. "Anthony is a big abusive dick" has been the main theme of the forum pretty much since the April Fools raid. I don't see how this can in any way be disputed. Asking for specific wordings just looks like an attempt to move the goalposts. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Aug 26, 2015 20:19:06 GMT
So here's our little three-quarters orphan Annie listening to all this, and she discovers that one of the people she's put at risk with her little escapades is her beloved Father. Bwuh? |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Aug 26, 2015 20:23:38 GMT
Okay, one, let's start slow, with the court. Why the threat of expelling Antimony at her graduation? It's not clear if they would let her graduate, but why not, since they invested all that time and money in her. And why they would let her stay (or not at least control her) if she's such a nuisance. An additional hypothesis that has been raised elsewhere in this thread: there is soemthing to be gained by her being at the Court, but that gain is not worth her being in "The Program" long term. But this is more likely, I think. It's not just controlling Antimony, it's also about controlling Tony. He must really have driven them nuts, because everything we have seen about him prior to this point suggests that he had his own agenda and no one but maybe Surma was a party to it. |
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Post by atteSmythe on Aug 26, 2015 21:18:49 GMT
Tony has established a pattern of assuming that he can accomplish whatever he sets his mind to, and that he doesn't need to consult with anyone prior to doing it. This continues even after the first assumption is proven false by Surma's death. Hence, massive ego. Hence, egomaniac. I don't see these patterns. We have an extremely limited and selective record of Anthony's actions, thoughts and motivations, from his life at the Court through the time at the hospital to the long quest. We have a near-omniscient readership condemning him as utterly stupid for ultimately attempting something they happen to know to be futile and for failing to arbitrarily seek shards of knowledge where they happen to know they have been glimpsed. If Anthony had been the focus of the story then of course things would be very different and he wouldn't be celebrated for prudence and humility if he chose to turn away from the things that are now used as proof of his inadequacy and arrogance. Apart from his later actions at the Court, which remain to be shed more light on, I mostly see him as guilty of being a square character peg in a round story hole. Of course, his eventual popularity is still inevitable. c.f. Annie. She regularly heads off on her own, full of her own spirit, either not seeking or actively ignoring advice. She's hurt others through negligence and ineptitude and even petty vindictive malice. She's had chances to atone, and has in large part taken them when offered. It's why we're sympathetic to her. Tony was a specter for most of the story, and when he finally showed back up and had a chance to atone, he blew it. And not only blew it, but made the interpersonal situation worse. That's why those same people are not (or at least I am not) sympathetic towards him. Will he have another chance to mend what he's done wrong? Probably, and he'll probably learn how to do that, at least in parts. But until then...yeah, he's a caretaker that's not taking care. He's hurt and broken, staggered, confused, mentally and emotionally and physically reeling from what he's been through. But he put himself through that so far seemingly not because of but in spite of his duty to care for his charge. He's made huge sacrifices...but so far, the evidence says that he was sacrificing for his own gain, not others'. So far, I still see travesty, not tragedy. So that's where I see him as self-centered. Tony gambled for Tony's gain and both Tony and Annie got hurt for it. It's not a noble endeavor. My 2c. :/ Edit: And, of course, this is only for the parts of the story that he's told so far. What was 'the device' that he was to research alongside Surma's pregnancy? What other research was he doing for the Court? Why, exactly, was he trying to contact Surma from the beyond (if any reason exists beyond his own need)? What is the program? Who knows. The answers to those questions could change everything, but so far the straightest line of reason doesn't imply anything hopeful. |
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Post by GK Sierra on Aug 26, 2015 21:20:57 GMT
You know, at this point Tom is just rubbing it in how wrong we all were(read: how wrong I was) about Tony.
Interesting that the Court is also described as a "program". It was clear from the beginning that it was much, much more than a school for gifted children, but perhaps we're finally going to hear what they want with these kids in detail. Are they even allowed to leave after graduation? Is a Court job optional? Do you have to be sworn to secrecy? Does the wider world not know about etheric science?
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Post by zimmyzims on Aug 26, 2015 21:31:54 GMT
Also, Anthony came back just to save his little girl, because she's all he cares about. Just suck it up, haters! I would say she's not the only thing he cared about during his three years of absence. The difference between 'care s' and 'care d'. You might have noticed something happening to Anthony in the last moments of his adventure, had you paid attention. |
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 26, 2015 21:44:11 GMT
I see some people a tad miffed that the riddle Anthony's cruelty is so neatly solved, without leaving him 100% an abusive monster. If you consider this "neatly solved".... I'd hate to see what you consider "confused and uncertain". And I wasn't ever aware of anyone labelling Anthony an "abusive monster" anywhere except in your misrepresentations of what other people were saying. Please go read the actual moderator-approved comments to the actual comic. A solid 10% are Un-HINGED. "Tony-defenders don't get basic morality" and "people are making excuses for a psychopath" are where they start. The comments to every single comic, for most of this year, have been no less vitriolic. People ostentatiously revoking their Patreon. People calling Tom a coddler of abuse. And on and on and on. |
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 26, 2015 21:51:31 GMT
Where in the text do we (a major part of the forum) specifically get some kind of validation that Tony's an egomaniac? This kinda cropped up out of nowhere. I feel like I've seen you ask this exact question before and get answers that you disagreed with. I mean, it's clear you don't think there's support for this outlook and you don't agree with what and where other people are seeing that support. You're more than entitled to that position! But you're still asking like no one has explained themselves, despite direct answers to you and in general commentary explaining the viewpoint. Are you genuinely seeing if anyone has a different answer that you'd be open to considering, or has this become a rhetorical question for you? No, I've gotten conjecture that's led to the following: "He tried to heal Surma without utilizing all of the Court's resources." "He either didn't know about Surma's condition (which is somehow inexcusable given the universe he lived in, despite being a surgeon who had Kat's outlook on specific universal mechanics), or didn't care and attempted to act like a god who could fix the unfixable." What HAVE we seen him do with regards to Surma? Kneel against her bed, clutching her hand; go on a journey for two years while his daughter attended the school her mother insisted on; nearly reach the point where he could contact Surma, only to realize it's the biggest mistake he could've made; ended up comatose for months, and then was instated as a Court teacher. It's interesting because I've only received one actual textual source that states a single character's opinion of Tony, but that got blown right out of the water when we found out just how much he cares about his family. |
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 26, 2015 21:54:37 GMT
Let's take the Court out of the picture.
Do we actually know for a fact that Tony's awful at everything related to parenting? If the Court doesn't breathe down Tony's neck, and lets him be the person he's clearly not being, could he be a better parent? Would he actually be "toxic" to be around without the threat of his daughter's impending expulsion on the line? I'm not convinced.
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 26, 2015 21:59:03 GMT
I'll be damned if one on the men in grey isn't Llanwellyn himself. The other one of the Gray Ones is probably a woman. Look at the body proportions of the one on the left, then the cut of the jacket they wear. Reads "pantsuit" to me everytime I see it. |
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Post by speedwell on Aug 26, 2015 22:02:54 GMT
It doesn't matter if some eldritch horror stole my body, it doesn't matter if it was a bet or a dare or said for your own good, it doesn't matter if the random quantum molecular movements of my lips made me pronounce the words "you're a ___ and I hate you", dammit, you're going to think I despise you and anything I do later to try to make it all better will still leave you wondering how much of it I meant. My grandmother said that nothing you do or say is 100 percent false, and in my fifty-year experience, I haven't seen anything to prove her wrong. I don't care if Jesus Christ came down and told Anthony to act like a dick to his daughter, that is still how he acted, and she has to bear the burden of the memory of how it felt to be treated in that despicable, hurtful way.
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Post by speedwell on Aug 26, 2015 22:04:13 GMT
I'll be damned if one on the men in grey isn't Llanwellyn himself. The other one of the Gray Ones is probably a woman. Look at the body proportions of the one on the left, then the cut of the jacket they wear. Reads "pantsuit" to me everytime I see it. Judging from the wrinkle pattern in the bosom area, I was thinking the same thing. I wasn't guessing it meant anything other than "random Court man and woman", but come on, how long have I been reading this comic already?  |
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Post by keef on Aug 26, 2015 22:09:01 GMT
Usually I am not a fan of this kind of wrapping up a complex story, but I love it here. Just the way Tom draws fire-Annie's expressions in the last pages. I hope it will be her and not flesh-Annie who talks to Tony next.  Mildly off topic rant. May contain sarcasm. And nuts. I wasn't ever aware of anyone labelling Anthony an "abusive monster" anywhere except in your misrepresentations of what other people were saying. Although I skipped a lot of this "discussion", I think "abusive monster" is a good description of the way some people saw him. They were only slightly more annoying (in my ever modest opinion), than those who thought Tony was now the real hero of this story, saving Antimony from the horrors of cheating and irresponsible forest friendships. I'm happy we come to the point where the good doctor becomes just one of the characters. The story of Annie, Kat, and Rey can continue. (and some people in my surroundings would love to read more about Shadow and Robot, Mr Tom Siddell.) |
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Post by Per on Aug 26, 2015 22:23:40 GMT
Please go read the actual moderator-approved comments to the actual comic. A solid 10% are Un-HINGED. "Tony-defenders don't get basic morality" and "people are making excuses for a psychopath" are where they start. Actually in today's comments the put-downs directed at "Tony haters" far outnumber the "he's still an asshole" comments, with about 300 people in between pointing out the typo. |
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
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Post by Sadie on Aug 26, 2015 22:29:32 GMT
No, I've gotten conjecture that's led to the following: "He tried to heal Surma without utilizing all of the Court's resources." "He either didn't know about Surma's condition (which is somehow inexcusable given the universe he lived in, despite being a surgeon who had Kat's outlook on specific universal mechanics), or didn't care and attempted to act like a god who could fix the unfixable." As I said; you got an answer that you don't agree with. (Also, there's some hyperbole in there and I leave you to it) You know there isn't any explicitly spelled out text stating that Anthony is an egomaniac. There isn't a page or dialogue bubble of Tony saying "I'm an egomaniac" or some other character with full knowledge of his actions and an unbiased view of his as a person saying "he's an egomaniac". You know what else isn't there? Spelled out text stating that Anthony loves/loved Surma or that he cares about his family. So he's upset about almost killing his own daughter and doesn't think he deserves her company. Can you really claim that is the exact same thing as him saying "I care about my family"? The closest we've gotten on whether or not he loved Surma is Annie insisting that her parents loved each other, but we all know how biased and untrustworthy she is when it comes to opinions about Anthony. In all these pages, we have never once gotten Anthony Carver unequivocally saying "I loved Surma". The opinion that he cares about his family is conjecture born from reading and analyzing Anthony's behavior and reaching reasonable conclusions based on general understanding of human behavior. Him going through hell and high water to see Surma again points really strongly in the favor of love. Him agreeing to return to a place he hates to make sure Antimony isn't expelled does seem to imply care. Not everyone agrees with that; I've seen some argue that it wasn't love, just obsession. They're entitled to that opinion, too. This is how the natures and personalities of most characters are picked up on and understood by readers. Few narratives explicitly spell out and tell us exactly how we're supposed to think and feel about a character, so we're supposed to pick up clues and draw our own conclusions. Because of this, different people often end up reading wildly different stories. You clearly agree with the conjecture that Anthony cares a great deal about his family. You don't agree with the conjecture that he suffers from hubris in regards to his own abilities. Totally fair. |
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 26, 2015 22:35:59 GMT
Please go read the actual moderator-approved comments to the actual comic. A solid 10% are Un-HINGED. "Tony-defenders don't get basic morality" and "people are making excuses for a psychopath" are where they start. Actually in today's comments the put-downs directed at "Tony haters" far outnumber the "he's still an asshole" comments, with about 300 people in between pointing out the typo. Most of "Tony hater quotes", however, are actual quotes. Monday's strip had several people saying "I wish you had died in the wilderness, too". More pleasantly, it looks like the moderators snipped Proper today (they always went ballistic), and they've finally started to overwrite Meishuu, who was one of two hyperregular "none of you defenders understand basic morality" posters. Like I said: Un-HINGED |
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 26, 2015 22:42:52 GMT
Let's take the Court out of the picture. Do we actually know for a fact that Tony's awful at everything related to parenting? If the Court doesn't breathe down Tony's neck, and lets him be the person he's clearly not being, could he be a better parent? Would he actually be "toxic" to be around without the threat of his daughter's impending expulsion on the line? I'm not convinced. He'd still be very much not-neurotypical, but since Annie shares a lot of the same nonstandard deviations, I think they'd actually be OK. This present weirdness, however, where he's simultaneously personally distant and scholastically hyperinvolved on the daily, is still a fresh-hell. |
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 26, 2015 22:57:18 GMT
No, I've gotten conjecture that's led to the following: "He tried to heal Surma without utilizing all of the Court's resources." "He either didn't know about Surma's condition (which is somehow inexcusable given the universe he lived in, despite being a surgeon who had Kat's outlook on specific universal mechanics), or didn't care and attempted to act like a god who could fix the unfixable." As I said; you got an answer that you don't agree with. (Also, there's some hyperbole in there and I leave you to it) You know there isn't any explicitly spelled out text stating that Anthony is an egomaniac. There isn't a page or dialogue bubble of Tony saying "I'm an egomaniac" or some other character with full knowledge of his actions and unbiased view of his as a person saying "he's an egomaniac". You know what else isn't there? Spelled out text stating that Anthony loves/loved Surma or that he cares about his family. So he's upset about almost killing his own daughter and doesn't think he deserves her company. Can you really claim that is the exact same thing as him saying "I care about my family/loved my wife"? The closest we've gotten on whether or not he loved Surma is Annie insisting that her parents loved each other, but we all know how biased and untrustworthy she is when it comes to opinions about Anthony. In all these pages, we have never once gotten Anthony Carver unequivocally saying "I loved Surma". The opinion that he cares about his family is conjecture born from reading and analyzing Anthony's behavior and reaching reasonable conclusions based on general understanding of human behavior. Him going through hell and high water to see Surma again points really strongly in the favor of love. Him agreeing to return to a place he hates to make sure Antimony isn't expelled doesn't does seem to imply care. Not everyone agrees with that; I've seen some argue that it wasn't love, just obsession. They're entitled to that opinion, too. This is how the natures and personalities of most characters are picked up on and understood by readers. Few narratives explicitly spell out and tell us exactly how we're supposed to think and feel about a character, so we're supposed to pick up clues and draw our own conclusions. Because of this, different people often end up reading wildly different stories. You clearly agree with the conjecture that Anthony cares a great deal about his family. You don't agree with the conjecture that he suffers from hubris in regards to his own abilities. Totally fair. Let's go at this one by one. 1. "(Also, there's some hyperbole in there and I leave you to it)" The hyperbole is in the parenthetical alone, nothing else is expressed but what I have explicitly read. I've seen posters claim that Tony's assumes he's capable of doing the impossible. I've seen posters claim that Tony has illusions of grandeur that elevate his ambitions to godhood. I've seen posters that he should've had the knowledge about Surma's condition that was only revealed to us omniscient readers in very particular moments of the comic. 2. "You know what else isn't there? ... Spelled out text stating that Anthony loves/loved Surma or that he cares about his family." Oh, you don't think it's textually supported? More than any piece of dialogue said about Tony or ever said BY Tony about his egomaniac behaviors, we've gotten him explicitly expressing visible distress over his wife's condition (kneeling by her bedside), worries over his daughter (concerns that he almost killed her: "Thank god that... thing... interfered." "My own daughter... I almost..." "I didn't deserve to see her again."), showing absolute, unequivocal joy when he even saw a glimpse of Surma being pulled through the antennae (if this isn't the face of pure joy, I don't know what is), and of showing very real tears over the emotional blackmail the Court employed by using Annie's graduation as a bargaining chip. There's no spelled out text that he loves them? Don't try to twist my own argument back when you're making such a rampant mistake doing so. You've managed to make a comparison between conjecture about Tony based on a lack of information with a very real expression of his emotions in the last three pages. 3. "You clearly agree with the conjecture that Anthony cares a great deal about his family. You don't agree with the conjecture that he suffers from hubris in regards to his own abilities. Totally fair." No, you don't get to just drop this and walk away so easily. More than anything else, more than any other piece of textual evidence you can dig up about ether, elementals, or even Anthony himself, know for a fact that hubris is not the same as ambition or hope. He's a surgeon, one pursued by the Court. He grew up in an environment that caused Brinnie to be a social outcast, one that continues to raise skeptics like Kat to this day. It's NOT made clear at all that he has an understanding of Surma's condition that outlines the hopelessness of it. I retract this, even in the midst of writing it. The reason I leave it in the text is so everyone can know how abruptly I've seen proof against it. This page, which I've forgotten about, and I haven't actually seen referenced in all the time I've asked for textual sources, is clear proof Anthony knew about her condition. Leaving it in also gives me a literary pattern for this next point. It's NOT made clear that he believed that he even had a shot of saving her. If anything, my point's stronger because of this.Over-emphasizing his abilities is a laughable claim given what the comic has relayed to us. But no matter how much I point out that a surgeon doesn't just give up, that a husband doesn't just give up, that a man about to lose something dear to him doesn't just give up, the forum's resident anti-Tonys pop out to claim it's hubris and illusions of grandeur that make him do what he does. That he's egomaniacal, vain, or otherwise. Is EVERY SINGLE story where a man attempts to resurrect or save his wife a story of vanity? If so, I've missed out on that terrific, stone-set literary connection. I certainly wouldn't see my father as vain if he were attempting to save his wife. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Aug 27, 2015 1:10:50 GMT
Please go read the actual moderator-approved comments to the actual comic. A solid 10% are Un-HINGED. "Tony-defenders don't get basic morality" and "people are making excuses for a psychopath" are where they start. I consider the comments section to be a step or two above 4chan and worthy of about as much attention. Saying they are unhinged is like saying breathing is a fine idea and you should try it some time. Attempting to take those folks to task on here is a path that leads only to frustration and madness. |
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Post by ninjaraven on Aug 27, 2015 1:38:47 GMT
And there it is. The Court is strongarming Tony into controlling Annie to some degree (to what degree, we have yet to see...)
Thoughts:
it sounds like Tony was out of commission for a long time - and he was at the Court all along. And Annie wasn't told. Nor were the Donlans. Geez. Did Jimmy know?
It also sounds like the Court does not want relations (traffic?) to improve between Court and Forest - I wonder why.
I am still not sure that discovering how to and freeing Jeanne is going to be a good thing - Jeanne is clearly there to keep etheric beings OUT. The words of Jones keep coming back to me: "one is as bad as the other". If the Court is this petty and cruel, then the Forest is not going to be any better. I think that Surma and friends did the same investigation thing back a generation ago, and for whatever reason, they chose to bury the knowledge they had (or didn't get as far). I do think Annie will free Jeanne before the end of this comic - but the consequences are going to be unhappy.
As terrible as it sounds about Annie's pending expulsion, she was kinda out of control. Jones, Jimmy-Jims, and Rey were all shown to be on her case, and she was not interested in listening. Then she was barred from being Court medium as a further punishment (with a tacit comment about concentrating on her studies even), but then Coyote intervened (which I am not convinced was a good thing for Annie - I still think Coyote only sees Annie as a pawn). How much effort does the Court have to put into one student to get them to obey basic rules? They may have only kept her on for diplomatic reasons (i.e. expelling the forest medium directly after her appointment would not look good). So, yes, expulsion at the end would be petty, but I'm not sure you can say the Court had just been sitting on its hands about trying to get Annie to stop.
"What are they going to do, tell my parents??" - Well, I guess we know the answer was: yes, Annie - they will, and he will capitulate. This whole situation is a mess, and both Annie and Tony have contributed to the mess, as well as Court and Forest. The prejudices and blindspots of each are making this whole business a good deal more nasty than it could've been.
How is Kat going to react to Annie's continued defense of her father??? She isn't privy to this conversation. How is Rey? Did he hear or not? And how are Annie and E!Annie going to proceed from here - I'm sure Annie does not see her dad as perfect any more, but both she and E!Annie have a better understanding of what's going on now, and some of the reasons behind her father's abrupt disappearance and recent cold behavior.
Having experienced a great deal of loss in my life, I feel a great deal of compassion for Tony. It must've been hard watching his wife slip away slowly under circumstances which he didn't fully understand and was ultimately powerless to stop, competent surgeon though he was. He probably got increasingly focused on the problem the worse it got (neglecting Annie in the process: after all, his daughter was thriving). And then, his deep grief and frustration leading him to run off and try to find answers elsewhere after Surma died, and the near disaster that resulted from that excursion. Was it responsible? no. Was it justifiable? In light of Annie, no. But I understand it completely. It is a completely human response to a painful situation.
To those of you who are willing to sit and coldly condemn Tony still: you must have very blessed lives, to have not experienced much in the way of grief nor to have broken relationships that you valued beyond repair that you are unwilling or unable to commiserate with Tony at least in part. I wonder what you will do once it happens. Be careful that, in your judgement of Tony, you don't end up condemning yourself.
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 27, 2015 2:11:29 GMT
I kind of wish Kat was hearing this. What would she think of Tony now? It also sucks, because now if Annie tries to defend him, Kat might think she's being delusional like we did before. Delusional, or mind-controlled... Annie did outsmart herself a little here, yes. But would Annie even want to "defend him"? As previously noted, the implication that it's not "her business" means that he refuses to acknowledge his side in relationship. Those things are two-sided: she cannot be his daughter unless he is her father, and vice versa. He dropped his side and said so rather clearly, if not directly. Aside of being a deceptive evasion, as it turned out that he knows it damn well is in another way. It also was likely when he ordered her to give him Renard, and now confirmed, that whatever relationship remained between them, up to and including his very presence, was not really between them, but the result of Anthony obeying some third party. If no one dragged him in on strings, not only he wouldn't dance on them now, he wouldn't even come back at all. Annie faces simple facts: right now there's no connection, they demonstrably don't hold two ends of one stick. Assuming she isn't really delusional and admits this, there's a choice: risking a breakdown again , to try and shovel through the mess he made, then rebuild the bridge from scratch, all on her own, wasting efforts and time (which she knows is even more limited than for most humans) that she could rather spend on herself and people who want and need her help - or wince, sigh, give up on him and cut the losses? It's not like she doesn't have anything else to do right now, including several serious threats. And probably is both fed up with this crap and utterly exasperated. I hope it goes is that she realizes that, love or not, Tony is in absolutely no shape to be a parent. His psyche is clearly shot to hell and he is suffering great depression and torment. The situation is toxic, and she needs to break free of it. And yes, even if Annie wants to, it's obviously quite likely that either he is unable to respond in a meaningful way no matter what she does, or he would embrace the possibility, only to immediately jump into one more of his grand delusions and try to force her to follow. It's possible that the only way to break this chain is to treat Anthony in a way that will not look like the world turns around him, no matter how he squints. |
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Post by sakyru on Aug 27, 2015 3:39:01 GMT
The current events and archive binging have really made me think about the younger generation of the Court, and their opinions on how it runs. This page in particular. Things seem like they're going to get a lot darker, faster, for many of Antimony's ex-classmates. ): |
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Post by Refugee on Aug 27, 2015 4:05:59 GMT
I see some people a tad miffed that the riddle Anthony's cruelty is so neatly solved, without leaving him 100% an abusive monster. If you consider this "neatly solved".... I'd hate to see what you consider "confused and uncertain". I certainly do not--but some here seem to think so. Instead, I think this just breaks open a huge, rotting, bulging can of story. |
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Post by Trillium on Aug 27, 2015 4:27:05 GMT
Okay, one, let's start slow, with the court. Why the threat of expelling Antimony at her graduation? It's not clear if they would let her graduate, but why not, since they invested all that time and money in her. And why they would let her stay (or not at least control her) if she's such a nuisance. An additional hypothesis that has been raised elsewhere in this thread: there is soemthing to be gained by her being at the Court, but that gain is not worth her being in "The Program" long term. But this is more likely, I think. It's not just controlling Antimony, it's also about controlling Tony. He must really have driven them nuts, because everything we have seen about him prior to this point suggests that he had his own agenda and no one but maybe Surma was a party to it. Some observations: Headmaster Llanwellyn might have been a classmate of Anthony and Surma. His daughter Janet is a classmate of Annie. Given the other classmate parentages it is a possibility. That might make things are a little more personal than just getting a wayward asset like Tony back. The rest of this group of friends: Donald, Anja and James all stayed in the Court. Things have changed between the Court and the Forest since Surma and Tony,were there as students. For one thing there was more contact between the Court and the Forest. There used to be evening surveys. The late Daniel Schiff was doing one when Reynard jumped into his body. Did these changes take place when Llanwellyn became Headmaster? Surma was never replaced as Court Medium. If she had come back she would still have had the job. That seems curious or just fine if the Court didn't care to have any more contact than necessary. The way the Court is using Annie as leverage to control Tony and in turn using Tony to control Annie is as elegant as it is twisted. |
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Post by rosencrantz on Aug 27, 2015 5:53:04 GMT
If you consider this "neatly solved".... I'd hate to see what you consider "confused and uncertain". And I wasn't ever aware of anyone labelling Anthony an "abusive monster" anywhere except in your misrepresentations of what other people were saying. There have been long interesting discussions on abuse and child neglect related to this arc, and at the beginning many people (including myself) thought Tony was displaying a malicious abusive behavior, especially after Annie's room was shown. We're getting more and more info on what Tony could and couldn't control, but I wouldn't say the riddle is neatly solved - or at least I hope it isn't, but maybe that's me clinging to the idea that the court isn't all that powerful. On a story-telling aspect I like the idea of Awkward Man Makes Mistakes, Doesn't Win Father of the Year Award more than the idea of Faceless Dystopia Men Made Awkward Man Do It. I'm so excited about what's happening though, I just edit all the "oh my gawwwwwwwwd" and the "blowing mah miiiind shiiiii". I'm not ready to give him the Father of the Year Award, but maybe a Tony for his excellent performance for the eyes of the court. |
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