|
|
Post by zbeeblebrox on Aug 26, 2015 7:29:35 GMT
Assuming he's saying the truth, we've all been horrible dicks to Tony. I'm really sorry, Tony. I am not quite ready to have a love-fest here. Even with this revelation, I am not seeing anything that couldn't have been better handled with old-fashioned honesty. I suspect the "how he should have done it" debate will be a long one that never completely goes away. Personally, I think that much like he didn't fully appreciate the danger of what he did in the desert until he actually tried it, he won't fully appreciate his daughter's ability to handle herself until he witnesses it. In other words, his actions were the inevitability of a man who doesn't know a damn thing about the person he's trying to protect. |
|
|
|
Post by Sky Schemer on Aug 26, 2015 7:33:21 GMT
Bad news: How the heck will Tony and Annie be able to have a frank face-to-face conversation without raising the Court's suspicions? Annie going to Tony's house would definitely be suspicious; anywhere else they may be able to listen in. Tony is either very confident that all the surveillance is gone from the building he's in now, or he lied to us. If the former, problem solved. If the latter, we can't trust anything that was said in this chapter. |
|
Bill
Junior Member
Posts: 68 
|
Post by Bill on Aug 26, 2015 7:34:02 GMT
Speculation: despite the two mediums working together and coyotes promise the war between the court and the forest(and everything else etheric) hasn't ever stopped in the courts eyes. It's a Cold War and they're developing some sort of project to stop etheric meddling. I think the omega project purpose is to literally end the forest by turning the ether against it. We know that people's souls return to the ether that then warps reality to their beliefs giving them power. If you were to do this on a grand scale you could do anything, empower anything, or annihilate anything. Or putting a stop to people's souls and beliefs returning to the ether (perhaps by killing all psychopomps). That would cripple the ether and etheric creatures pretty quickly, and kill/end it/them soon enough. Also, souls returning to the ether is what keeps the etheric world "spinning". |
|
|
|
Post by edzepp on Aug 26, 2015 7:35:27 GMT
I am not quite ready to have a love-fest here. Even with this revelation, I am not seeing anything that couldn't have been better handled with old-fashioned honesty. I suspect the "how he should have done it" debate will be a long one that never completely goes away. Personally, I think that much like he didn't fully appreciate the danger of what he did in the desert until he actually tried it, he won't fully appreciate his daughter's ability to handle herself until he witnesses it. In other words, he actions were the inevitability of a man who doesn't know a damn thing about the person he's trying to protect. Compounded by the fact that after years of being her dad, he probably has a very specific set of ideas of how things are supposed to go with her, which doesn't take into account how things might have changed since the last time he saw her. Which again, is another knowledge gap issue. |
|
|
|
Post by fish on Aug 26, 2015 7:43:44 GMT
Wait, so he never wanted to see Annie again but the prospect of her being banished from the Court program after graduation was enough to make him return? Why? Why is it important for Annie to participate in this program? Or was it just the prospect of Annie practically becoming homeless with the expulsion? Hmm...
|
|
Bill
Junior Member
Posts: 68
|
Post by Bill on Aug 26, 2015 7:45:20 GMT
Bad news: How the heck will Tony and Annie be able to have a frank face-to-face conversation without raising the Court's suspicions? Annie going to Tony's house would definitely be suspicious; anywhere else they may be able to listen in. Tony is either very confident that all the surveillance is gone from the building he's in now, or he lied to us. If the former, problem solved. If the latter, we can't trust anything that was said in this chapter. The removal of all surveillance in his house is precisely why the two of them being in it at the same time would be suspicious. It's a known blind/deaf spot, but they still have the tracking equipment (nanotech in the food). Given his public behavior towards her so far, why would he invite her into his home, the surveillance-safe location, if not to have a conversation the Court does not want them to have? |
|
|
|
Post by zbeeblebrox on Aug 26, 2015 7:48:14 GMT
Bad news: How the heck will Tony and Annie be able to have a frank face-to-face conversation without raising the Court's suspicions? Annie going to Tony's house would definitely be suspicious; anywhere else they may be able to listen in. Tony is either very confident that all the surveillance is gone from the building he's in now, or he lied to us. If the former, problem solved. If the latter, we can't trust anything that was said in this chapter. When it comes to real-world technology, we can pretty much trust Tony to deal with it thoroughly. Him and Donny launched a satellite into orbit as kids, I think he can handle some measly nanobots. And when it comes to etheric technology, well, it'd be clear as day to Annie wouldn't it? |
|
|
|
Post by fish on Aug 26, 2015 7:52:48 GMT
"They've been collecting information on Antimony's activities"
Just hooooow much do the know about Jeanne? :0
|
|
|
|
Post by Sky Schemer on Aug 26, 2015 7:54:39 GMT
I am not quite ready to have a love-fest here. Even with this revelation, I am not seeing anything that couldn't have been better handled with old-fashioned honesty. Or anything OTHER than whatever the hell that was. I'm not sure the Court can dictate how he chose to break the news. Maybe not, but maybe they also needed to be convinced he could really control her. In which case, he put on one Helluva show. |
|
|
|
Post by yutrio on Aug 26, 2015 7:54:56 GMT
Wait, so he never wanted to see Annie again but the prospect of her being banished from the Court program after graduation was enough to make him return? Why? Why is it important for Annie to participate in this program? Or was it just the prospect of Annie practically becoming homeless with the expulsion? Hmm... It's not that the Court is going to banish her after graduation. It's that she won't ever get the chance to graduate. The Court was going to pull the ultimate douchebag move and let her continue her schooling until right about she was going to finish, and just not let her graduate on graduation day. They're no strangers to public humiliation. (see: Changes) |
|
|
|
Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 26, 2015 7:55:02 GMT
Probably blasted-device related. Or perhaps mid-level marketing. Well, I think they were waiting for her to get to graduation, and then pull the rug out from under her. "We know you cheated, now we're going to take away everything right before you had a chance to succeed." The standard way of handling it would be to let Antimony know in private shortly before graduation that she wasn't going to pass, but to let her still walk through the ceremony with her friends to save face. Only the diploma she would receive on stage would be a blank piece of paper. Then she'd just disappear and everyone would wonder why she wasn't at the reunions later. I really doubt that the Court would just let Antimony wander off into muggle-land and live life on her own, though, even if they could easily track her and monitor her activities. She's just too valuable a subject even without considering Renard. That was either a bluff [note they only mentioned it after Anthony declined to return at first] or through their various agencies perhaps they would have gotten her some sort of medium-like job at some other location under their control, maybe by dangling her degree like a carrot. My god we all failed. It was Occam's razor the whole time. All these complex psychological theories about why Tony is being a dick and it's just the simplest one. "Somebody is making him do it". Nah he's still a dick. The primary person making him be a dick is Anthony. I stand 100% behind my analysis of his dickitude. We already knew that the Court was interested in reeling in Antimony, that doesn't mean that Anthony isn't interested in the same and it in no way diminishes the methods he chose even if the Court was helping/enabling/egging him on. Really, the only thing that we did learn is that the Court is more closely monitoring Antimony than before, which may provide an explanation for her current housing situation. Or not. |
|
|
|
Post by Sky Schemer on Aug 26, 2015 7:57:11 GMT
"They've been collecting information on Antimony's activities" Just hooooow much do the know about Jeanne? :0 Good question. But whether or not they know anything about her, I think this little incident has rocketed Jeanne to the top of Annie's to-do list. The Court is now a real threat to her and a damn big one. What was that about the best defense being a good offense? |
|
|
|
Post by edzepp on Aug 26, 2015 8:01:21 GMT
"They've been collecting information on Antimony's activities" Just hooooow much do the know about Jeanne? :0 Good question. But whether or not they know anything about her, I think this little incident has rocketed Jeanne to the top of Annie's to-do list. The Court is now a real threat to her and a damn big one. What was that about the best defense being a good offense? Especially an offense that HATES the court's guts. |
|
|
|
Post by darththulhu on Aug 26, 2015 8:07:27 GMT
So. Coyote isn't happy about things now. Just wait until he finds out about this. Nah. Coyote will find "this" hilarious. His apprentices are learning well |
|
Pig_catapult
Full Member
Keeper of the Devilkitty
Posts: 171
|
Post by Pig_catapult on Aug 26, 2015 8:12:55 GMT
I really, really want this to not just turn out to be "the Court made him do it". I want there to still be a good chunk of this that's all on him. The Court put him in a sticky situation? Okay, sure. But I demand that Tony have enough wiggle room that at least half of his poor treatment of Annie is him handling that situation badly.
For example (starting with the thing I'm 100% certain is all on him): Calling Annie's makeup ridiculous? That was Tony having a freakout because her looking like Surma is reminding him of that time he almost accidentally killed her (in which Annie's spirit looked like Surma).
But taking an inventory of some other things:
* Holding her back a year? That's Tony putting off her graduation. I don't think they're gonna pull the graduation rug out from under her, but they're going to expel her from the Court. The only reason that makes sense to me atm for Surma and Tony to both want Annie at the Court is if the Court is working on something ethric-sciences-y that might save Annie from Surma's fate. Clearly Annie is welcome at the Forest and could move in, but she'd probably have a kid and die there.
* Taking away her Forest privileges? Okay, yeah, clearly the Court put him up to that.
* Taking away Renard? I dunno. It's a tossup.
* Separating her from Kat/putting her in that Big Box Room? Ya got me there. I dunno. I guess it'd be much harder to fill a room like that with deadly neurotoxin through the vent system while Annie sleeps? Does the Court assassinate students if they get too dangerous to be "worth it"?
|
|
|
|
Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 26, 2015 8:15:56 GMT
Welcome to the forums, yutrio! "They've been collecting information on Antimony's activities" Just hooooow much do the know about Jeanne? :0 Good question. But whether or not they know anything about her, I think this little incident has rocketed Jeanne to the top of Annie's to-do list. The Court is now a real threat to her and a damn big one. I'm not really seeing the urgency, though it would be nice to get back to that and away from the twelve labors of Anthony. Assuming that the Court just recently (re)learned that the barrier across the Annan's name is Jeanne, I think they'd just leave her where she's at. And if you think about it, the Court's alleged evil plan of evilness to not let her graduate and banish her is really them just keeping an eye on her and otherwise doing nothing. Like they've been doing... except we now know they're doing more watching (according to what Anthony says he was told) than we knew. And if she grew out of her rebellious phase or otherwise shaped up, they could abort the plan. Assuming, again, they weren't just buffaloing Anthony into returning. |
|
|
|
Post by edzepp on Aug 26, 2015 8:16:27 GMT
* Separating her from Kat/putting her in that Big Box Room? Ya got me there. I dunno. I guess it'd be much harder to fill a room like that with deadly neurotoxin through the vent system while Annie sleeps? Does the Court assassinate students if they get too dangerous to be "worth it"? I KNEW there was something vaguely 'psychotic AI' about that room! |
|
|
|
Post by darththulhu on Aug 26, 2015 8:16:41 GMT
Really interesting that the Court immediately went for the Stick (direct threats to Antimony), rather than the Carrot (expressions of concern about the many etheric killers hovering around Antimony).
Tony isn't the only person with basic empathy issues.
|
|
|
|
Post by edzepp on Aug 26, 2015 8:21:46 GMT
Welcome to the forums, yutrio! Good question. But whether or not they know anything about her, I think this little incident has rocketed Jeanne to the top of Annie's to-do list. The Court is now a real threat to her and a damn big one. I'm not really seeing the urgency, though it would be nice to get back to that and away from the twelve labors of Anthony. Assuming that the Court just recently (re)learned that the barrier across the Annan's name is Jeanne, I think they'd just leave her where she's at. And if you think about it, the Court's alleged evil plan of evilness to not let her graduate and banish her is really them just keeping an eye on her and otherwise doing nothing. Like they've been doing... except we now know they're doing more watching (according to what Anthony says he was told) than we knew. And if she grew out of her rebellious phase or otherwise shaped up, they could abort the plan. Assuming, again, they weren't just buffaloing Anthony into returning. Well, this way, they get their monitoring and watching time AND they still get to act like petty dicks in the end. It's a win-win! (For them) |
|
|
|
Post by tootsiren on Aug 26, 2015 8:22:21 GMT
So I guess they got Tony to reel her in, and what is the program really. Total shot in the dark: Gunnerkrigg Court is the program. It's a self-sustaining, mostly-isolated research environment where the test administrators use their highly-developed technology to seek out new test subjects, and the test subjects become the test administrators as they mature. Each generation builds upon the previous generation's discoveries, ensuring the Court retains its geopolitical power/importance by being ahead of the curve both in technology and etheric sciences. Basically Gunnerkrigg Court exists to advance itself. It holds a tenuous position in the world and derives most of its power from its ability to manipulate the ether. They don't like Annie because she's threatening to upset the applecart, both by brokering a cultural exchange with Gunnerkrigg's chief rival in etheric-manipulation and by threatening to expose/destroy the subjugation of Jeanne. This is now wild speculation, but maybe the thing in the Annan waters that entraps Jeanne also effectively seals off the Gillitie from everywhere except Gunnerkrigg Court. That would make the Gillitie an exclusive, exploitable resource, which offers all kinds of explanations for why the powers-that-be at Gunnerkrigg don't want Annie messing with it. |
|
|
|
Post by arf on Aug 26, 2015 8:25:29 GMT
Judging from panel 4, a lot of good malt has been sacrificed to gather this much information. Hope Don has another bottle stashed away through some hole in a wall. ok... now i am afraid to ask this.. Was Donald already privy to all this bussiness with the court and that's why he asked Annie to listen in? Is this why he essentially got Anthony Carver totaled? I am not liking this. Also like edzepp said "they made him do it" seems a bit of a let down. Furthermore bleh... [lets wait till Friday's page] I don't think so. Having Don frame Tony with Annie present when the Court has brought him back is... pointless. Anyway, Don's got a few nefarious things of his own going on, and don't tell me Anje would stand for it. Waiting until graduation to expel Annie seems a pointless cruelty as well (I know... dicks). I read it that she may graduate, then get expelled from the life of advancement and safety that is Court society. From Tony's expression in the last panel, that would be a low blow. Well, the workings of Court Society has been a grey eminence for a long time now ( as Jack discovered, the school systems are sealed off from it). Perhaps we will get a peek under the veil soon. |
|
|
|
Post by keef on Aug 26, 2015 8:29:08 GMT
Well this page leaves me pleasantly confused.. One thing: I think it means the court doesn't give a toss about the cheating, but were only pissed off about her friendliness towards the forest. Wait, so he never wanted to see Annie again but the prospect of her being banished from the Court program after graduation was enough to make him return? Why? Why is it important for Annie to participate in this program? Or was it just the prospect of Annie practically becoming homeless with the expulsion? Hmm... This program is more important than the school, the school is just a pretext to get people with etheric capability in the Court. Tony seems to think this program could be beneficial for his daughter; no idea why. Let's reopen the the wild spec thread.  |
|
|
|
Post by carasanathema on Aug 26, 2015 8:30:13 GMT
So what's the possibility that The Court is the one that set up Anthony with the fake psychopomps, in order to weaken/damage/destroy Antimony, then? That way Jean is never saved, Reynard isn't under her protection, and Coyote loses his Medium without the Court being implicated. That failed, so they tried Plan B, which was to bring Tony in to try to control her and get all of those things anyway.
|
|
|
|
Post by arf on Aug 26, 2015 8:30:24 GMT
* Separating her from Kat/putting her in that Big Box Room? Ya got me there. I dunno. I guess it'd be much harder to fill a room like that with deadly neurotoxin through the vent system while Annie sleeps? Does the Court assassinate students if they get too dangerous to be "worth it"? I KNEW there was something vaguely 'psychotic AI' about that room! Surprisingly few schools do this. |
|
|
|
Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 26, 2015 8:30:58 GMT
Separating her from Kat/putting her in that Big Box Room? Ya got me there. I dunno. I guess it'd be much harder to fill a room like that with deadly neurotoxin through the vent system while Annie sleeps? Does the Court assassinate students if they get too dangerous to be "worth it"? Not ones that are the medium from the Wood and under the protection of Coyote and Ysengrin they don't. I'll speculate again that Antimony's room is in the same building as her classmates' tank and that's why it's shaped the way it is. It may not be just because of that, Lyn might have to come in if there was an emergency through some door we don't know about, perhaps... And cutting off Kat from Antimony I guess keeps the girls from getting up to trouble for the Court to gather information on. If they're actually doing that very much. Also it helps keep Antimony under wraps. |
|
|
|
Post by keef on Aug 26, 2015 8:32:50 GMT
Waiting until graduation to expel Annie seems a pointless cruelty as well Unless even her attendance strengthens their program in some way. |
|
|
|
Post by csj on Aug 26, 2015 8:34:52 GMT
By any measure, Antimony would be considered a 'delinquent'. His intent and method are both skewed, but there was absolutely no way Annie should spend the rest of her childhood cheating off her best friend and being manipulated by a literal god. BUT... Anthony is incapable of seeing a better means of doing what he desires, which itself is warped. Surma was not exactly a magical princess either. She deliberately trapped Reynardine on behalf of the Court, which she represented. Having Annie represent the Forest is probably not something she would desire either. Both were respected by the Forest only due to their identity/nature and strength of will. It is Tony's desire for certainty that drives him towards seeking a controlling response. He couldn't trust a Court that was intent to watch her destroy herself in one way or another, having effectively 'defected'. She lost her potential 'utility' in their eyes. He is an intense person and elicited an intense response. It will prove self-defeating, in my opinion, but even if it causes her distress, some good will come of it in one way or another. Will it be worth it? Who knows. deja vu feels |
|
|
|
Post by rafk on Aug 26, 2015 8:42:38 GMT
Tony, Tony. What's to stop the Court doing it anyway once they have no need of you?
Interesting to hear what "the program" is, of course.
Anyway, we're now more or less in a position to pass judgement on Tony with full information. We'll be nice and guess his actions since returning are orchestrated by the Court (I suspect he could have been nicer, but whatevs).
He's mentally not well. Abandoning Annie after her mother died so he could wallow in self-pity is inexcusable and his failure to treat her like a person and just ask her about the psychopomps and everything else has caused enormous pain for both he and Annie but it is mitigated by the fact he clearly went a bit nuts at least by the end. One can't explain the bone antenna any other way, that goes beyond self pity and failure to put his daughter first and right through to stark raving mad.
The full explanation has made Tony pitiable, and not the cartoon emotionless villain he initially seemed, but it also doesn't absolve him for leaving Annie at the Court and running off to obsess over Surma. Still, at least the bone antenna incident was merely insane and reckless, not malicious (not from Tony, anyway).
|
|
|
|
Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 26, 2015 8:46:31 GMT
Welcome to the forums, yutrio! I'm not really seeing the urgency, though it would be nice to get back to that and away from the twelve labors of Anthony. Assuming that the Court just recently (re)learned that the barrier across the Annan's name is Jeanne, I think they'd just leave her where she's at. And if you think about it, the Court's alleged evil plan of evilness to not let her graduate and banish her is really them just keeping an eye on her and otherwise doing nothing. Like they've been doing... except we now know they're doing more watching (according to what Anthony says he was told) than we knew. And if she grew out of her rebellious phase or otherwise shaped up, they could abort the plan. Assuming, again, they weren't just buffaloing Anthony into returning. Well, this way, they get their monitoring and watching time AND they still get to act like petty dicks in the end. It's a win-win! (For them) I just dunno... My translation of Anthony's recollection of the threat: "We're going to sit around with our thumbs up our @sses and pretty much do nothing for years, just watching your daughter be a bad influence on the entire rest of the school while we build our case against her... And then that day will come when we'll be rather mean!" That threat worked on an injured and perhaps ill and malnourished Anthony. On a healthy Anthony I think his reply, if he did something other than just look at them in owlish fashion, would not be, "How soon can I return to the Court to help her?" but something more like, "What?" |
|
|
|
Post by yutrio on Aug 26, 2015 9:00:38 GMT
I really, really want this to not just turn out to be "the Court made him do it". I want there to still be a good chunk of this that's all on him. The Court put him in a sticky situation? Okay, sure. But I demand that Tony have enough wiggle room that at least half of his poor treatment of Annie is him handling that situation badly. For example (starting with the thing I'm 100% certain is all on him): Calling Annie's makeup ridiculous? That was Tony having a freakout because her looking like Surma is reminding him of that time he almost accidentally killed her (in which Annie's spirit looked like Surma). But taking an inventory of some other things: * Holding her back a year? That's Tony putting off her graduation. I don't think they're gonna pull the graduation rug out from under her, but they're going to expel her from the Court. The only reason that makes sense to me atm for Surma and Tony to both want Annie at the Court is if the Court is working on something ethric-sciences-y that might save Annie from Surma's fate. Clearly Annie is welcome at the Forest and could move in, but she'd probably have a kid and die there. * Taking away her Forest privileges? Okay, yeah, clearly the Court put him up to that. * Taking away Renard? I dunno. It's a tossup. * Separating her from Kat/putting her in that Big Box Room? Ya got me there. I dunno. I guess it'd be much harder to fill a room like that with deadly neurotoxin through the vent system while Annie sleeps? Does the Court assassinate students if they get too dangerous to be "worth it"? The way I see it, it's a mixture of both the Court and Tony. The Court has put pressure on him because they were planning to expel Annie at the eleventh hour if he didn't comply with their requests, which is why he forbade her from contact with the Forest. I do agree that it was probably Tony's idea to hold Annie back, but I think it was done as a form of protection in the long run—so that the Court can't use her school records against her if she can pass those classes on her own without resorting to cheating. Renard is a little more murky, but I think that lies with the Court. It's been made clear in the past that the Court wants to have Renard back under their custody, but the big question is if Tony would've given Renard up to the Court. The Big Box Room might be Tony's idea, though it's hard to say. There doesn't seem to be any sort of cameras or any means to keep tabs on her there. |
|
