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Post by Sky Schemer on Apr 17, 2015 17:15:57 GMT
Part of me is hoping that Annie's choice of words here is significant. "I am to give him to" instead of "I am giving him to". But it's probably too much to ask.  |
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Post by machival on Apr 17, 2015 17:21:04 GMT
That adds a whole lot of creepy to just about everything. Evidence wise, I think we've seen too little of Anthony to rule your theory out, but I'm doubtful that Tom would put those kinds of implications into the Anthony/Surma relationship. It seems too dark for the way comic has generally been written. It is dark, but it could fit. Especially since he's very obsessed with control - a gift like that could definitely express itself in being able to control etheral beings, or it could help him perform a risky, etheral procedure on an elemental to get her under his control. I guess I'm just not a fan of the possibility that Anthony is some sort of magic mind control rapist on top of everything else. I'm assuming he said "transfer control to me" because he was going to be the one who received the doll from antimony. Whoever he gives Renard to afterwards is immaterial to the transaction with Antimony and thus not worth mentioning. Still though, I am open to the possibility that Renard could be a useful test subject for a bone lasering operation. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 17, 2015 17:21:36 GMT
I'm pretty sure that there is some very sinister form of control that Anthony is exerting over Antimony, as I said before. She has no free will at the moment and is simply acting as an automaton under his direction. I'm actually starting to worry just a little bit that mind control may be a factor here. I mean, I didn't expect her to have snapped out of it and decided to tell her dad to go to hell about getting control over Reynardine just yet, but I kind of expected her to be more unhappy about everything that's happened. More upset. She seems pretty robotic here. (I completely acknowledge this could be just because she's been so blindsided though.) And...all the times we've seen Surma after she hooked up with Anthony...was she ever wearing her make up? Granted she was in the hospital, but Tony could've brought her make up from home the way Kat brought Annie her make up after she passed out in Divine. And when she was with Eglamore she was in school...and she was wearing her make up. Bear in mind this is just me thinking out loud, but even just considering what I'm considering is giving me a spooky feeling. I came up with a theory this morning that I keep mulling over. One of the biggest mysteries as-yet unsolved is why Surma chose Anthony over Eglamore. We know the court takes an interest in people with special abilities... what if Anthony has the ability to influence beings of the aether? Annie surely seems to have that gift; shadow, basil, mort, even coyote all took a natural liking to her. What if Surma and Annie both just fall under Anthony's sway subconsciously? All respect to theories about stuff not seen in the comic but I don't think that anything we're seeing can't be explained by Antimony being approval, affection, and physical-contact starved with regard to her father, and as a consequence of that being desperate to please him. People who have been emotionally abused often go on to abuse others; Antimony is accustomed to her feelings not being taken into account (particularly with regard to her father's wishes) and is acting in spite of Renard's wishes and the effect the transfer of ownership will have on him. I am still withholding judgement on Anthony but this page was another bit of evidence in my book in the "emotionally abusive" column. |
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Post by Whitespace on Apr 17, 2015 17:23:56 GMT
Antimony knew this was a betrayal back when she agreed to it; that was the reason for her mental break. She isn't likely to change her mind until something unexpected happens, and until then she'll probably just take the most direct path to her objective while thinking about it as little as possible.
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Post by Chancellor on Apr 17, 2015 17:24:35 GMT
I suppose it bears wondering why Anthony was taken into the Court in the first place?
Surma and Anja were both dispositioned favorably towards magic, Brinnie has that whole Norse god relations thing going, Donny and James both ended up being important figures in the Court (a teacher and Protector respectively), but apart from his supernatural lack of people skills, the Court must have seen, or foreseen, something special in Anthony, right? Unless HIS parent(s) had attended before him and requested he receive his education there.
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Post by waldojeffers on Apr 17, 2015 18:03:02 GMT
Well, this is creepy. I'm trying not to think too hard about Renard situation, muted but not turned off, but it is still creepy. Luckily Kats presence will likely prevent the transfer of ownership however the relationship between Antimony and Kat might take a hit over this. I'm also not sure what will happen to the relationship between Antimony and Renard. I wonder, if Anthony had ordered Antimony to not to talk to Kat, would she obey? Also if Kat steals Reynardine then the ownership contract would be broken, allowing the teddy bear/wolf to run loose. I think that Antimony's current priority is not to displease her father any more. The onslaught of Kat might snap her out of it but it's also quite likely to cause an adverse reaction - pushing Kat away. Such a shame the students do not have any mobile phones, a call which leads to the presence of a trusted adult would definitely be necessary in this situation. I am really hoping that either: a. Annie briefly snaps back to herself and hands over ownership of Renard to Kat or b. Kat runs away with the Renard doll But if Kat runs away with Renard where will she take him? To the forest? To Coyote? Would she feel comfortable going this far? Then again, Renard is her friend too. She doesn't seem likely to sit by idly while Annie gives up Renard to her father. And another big question: if Kat runs away with Renard, is this enough to break the ownership bond? I hope that Kat taking Renard from Annie would break the bond and release Renard from creepy-doll-state. On a side note, even though these last few pages have been very emotional, I'm really enjoying this twist in the story. For a while now I've been expecting the "let's save Jeanne" plot to continue, but having Anthony back in the mix has created a whole host of new problems and potential directions for the story. I absolutely agree that Annie and Kat's relationship could very well could change right here, but hopefully their fight won't cause a permanent rift. This is also interesting because Annie and Kat have been drifting apart since Kat started dating Paz. I wonder if these new developments with Anthony will drive them closer together or further apart. |
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Post by waldojeffers on Apr 17, 2015 18:12:58 GMT
I'm holding judgment on that for now. But certainly, if it turns out that this is the result of something Anthony did to deliberately exert control over her, he needs to go down. It needn't be deliberate for it to be horrific. No one should have this much control over a person as old as Annie is. This is why people have been calling Anthony out. This level of emotional control is terrifying. (And this is why people have boon relating it to abuse: there are few [if any] ways to have someone become this reliant upon another outside of emotional abuse). EDIT: ninjaraven Check out this page.And in addition to the high level of emotional control Anthony has over Annie, Annie hasn't had a strong parental figure in her life for years. I can see how easy and simple it would be to slip into old habits even though she's grown into such a strong, independent individual since coming to the court. Her dad (who she's been waiting for for YEARS) has finally come back to her. It makes sense to me that she'd do anything to get him to stay (even if this means turning her back on other important things--Renard, the forest). |
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 17, 2015 18:26:15 GMT
But if Kat runs away with Renard where will she take him? To the forest? To Coyote? Would she feel comfortable going this far? Then again, Renard is her friend too. She doesn't seem likely to sit by idly while Annie gives up Renard to her father. And another big question: if Kat runs away with Renard, is this enough to break the ownership bond? I hope that Kat taking Renard from Annie would break the bond and release Renard from creepy-doll-state. It may be that the act of running away with the doll is enough to break the contract. But if she takes it, she'll almost certainly bring him to her mother. Her mother had studied the nature of Rey's bond for years, trying to save Sivo; she'd know the most of anyone other than Coyote. My current perspective is that something is horribly wrong, yes, but nothing supernaturally so. Annie's emotions have been so broken that she's retreated into herself, as we've seen before, and it acting like an automaton doing her Father's wishes. Every time that she was told to give up Rey, her surrogate father figure, she's reacted with fiery refusal - to JimmyJims, to her best friend's parents, to the Headmaster himself. But now that fire has been quenched: she desperately wants her father's approval, but he chose to emotionally break her instead. She's sacrificed her friendship and trust with Rey, perhaps forever, because Anthony said so. And if things go similarly next page, she may have a major break in her relationship with Kat as well. I ask again, what more can go wrong? Of course, I'm sure Tom will show us in the upcoming pages. |
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Post by pxc on Apr 17, 2015 18:32:07 GMT
If Kat tries to steal Renard, it'll only be after a confrontation with Annie goes badly. In which case I expect Annie would yell for Renard to come back, and he'd have to do it. I don't think Kat stealing Renard is going to be an option.
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west
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Post by west on Apr 17, 2015 18:39:36 GMT
I think that we're just about due for another breaking point from Annie. This is like the beginning of Microsat 5 taken to a ghastly extreme: not to play armchair psychologist, but she seems so completely depersonalized that she's pretty much just a spectator to her own actions. However, Anthony accomplished this within minutes of meeting her and has had several hours since then to throw her as far off balance as possible; she hasn't had the means or the opportunity to regain her equilibrium since then. Hopefully Kat will realize that she isn't a rational actor right now and help snap her out of it. Hopefully being told that she's about to betray her closest friends as well as herself in some truly horrific ways will be a start. Incidentally, I'm not seeing mind control from Anthony here, just plain old manipulation. |
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Post by whitehawk on Apr 17, 2015 19:26:33 GMT
Kat's role here is also similar to the ROTD chapter, wherein Annie's sensitivity to the etheric became overpowering and distracting to the task at hand. Hopefully Kat will be able to handle all the wishy-washy weirdness.
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 17, 2015 19:33:02 GMT
If she knew everything we do, she could cover his ears. Tom has said that if he can't hear a command, he doesn't have to obey. |
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Post by scalesandfins on Apr 17, 2015 19:33:33 GMT
Annie refused to give renard to the Donlans back when she found out he was in her plush wolf, despite the fact that he'd just tried to kill her and she had no reason to trust or like him at the time. Despite the fact that the demand came from adults, teachers and her parents' friends, authority figures she ought to trust and listen to. And why? because she decided even a nasty demon didn't deserve to be locked up like that. You want to tell me this Annie is the same Annie than back then? It's the opposite of everything she's ever been. A neat trick of this kind of emotional abuse: none of these adults counted as real authority figures to Annie because they weren't her dad. They were treating her with kindness and respect, not treating her like a cockroach, so they must be morons whose opinions and orders don"t matter. |
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Post by pxc on Apr 17, 2015 20:18:43 GMT
Annie refused to give renard to the Donlans back when she found out he was in her plush wolf, despite the fact that he'd just tried to kill her and she had no reason to trust or like him at the time. Despite the fact that the demand came from adults, teachers and her parents' friends, authority figures she ought to trust and listen to. And why? because she decided even a nasty demon didn't deserve to be locked up like that. You want to tell me this Annie is the same Annie than back then? It's the opposite of everything she's ever been. A neat trick of this kind of emotional abuse: none of these adults counted as real authority figures to Annie because they weren't her dad. They were treating her with kindness and respect, not treating her like a cockroach, so they must be morons whose opinions and orders don"t matter. Interesting observation. Annie has a history of ignoring authority figures until they get in her face about it. She brushed off Eglamore until he called her out. And Jones' stoic warning against her behavior probably came across very Anthony-like. Those are the two instances of her paying the most attention to the warnings of an authority figure. |
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Post by arkadi on Apr 17, 2015 20:23:35 GMT
Goddammit, Annie, snap out of it already!!!!!! >_< I called it already, and I'm calling it again: there's some kind of mind control going on here. Carver has messed with Annie's mind in ways that aren't merely psychological. There's no other she'd be doing this to Renard and being so meek about it on top of everything. See? See what you did, Annie? You broke zbeeblebrox Ó_Ò Well, this does answer one question I had: the contract of ownership didn't get transferred when Annie said "Okay" in the previous chapter. So there is still time for her to change her mind. Here's hoping. I'm also really hoping that Kat will do something radical to break Annie out of the spell, or at least she'll take Renard out of Carver's reach even if it means getting in trouble with the Court authorities. God, I'm reading every new update of this chapter with clenched fists and teeth. I don't even dare re-read any previous chapters, because just remembering what Annie was like a mere bunch of pages ago and seeing her now like this, makes me want to scream and shout.  |
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Post by arkadi on Apr 17, 2015 20:24:53 GMT
Like a hypnotised chicken. Awesome line. I am almost considering changing my signature to that. I strongly advise against it. Signatures that quote from YKK are a precious rarity; they should be preserved and protected. |
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Post by nero on Apr 17, 2015 20:38:02 GMT
I'm disappointed in Annie. How could she turn back on her promise. What does she think Anthony will do with Renard?
I'm glad we didn't have to see Annie break the news to Renard or that would've been heart wrenching.
I hope Kat can make Annie see that this is wrong and save Renard.
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Post by ninjaraven on Apr 17, 2015 20:55:35 GMT
Annie refused to give renard to the Donlans back when she found out he was in her plush wolf, despite the fact that he'd just tried to kill her and she had no reason to trust or like him at the time. Despite the fact that the demand came from adults, teachers and her parents' friends, authority figures she ought to trust and listen to. And why? because she decided even a nasty demon didn't deserve to be locked up like that. You want to tell me this Annie is the same Annie than back then? It's the opposite of everything she's ever been. A neat trick of this kind of emotional abuse: none of these adults counted as real authority figures to Annie because they weren't her dad. They were treating her with kindness and respect, not treating her like a cockroach, so they must be morons whose opinions and orders don"t matter. Except that's not how it works with an authoritarian parent. Instead, you assume that all authority figures are going to behave like your parent should they be crossed, and thus you don't want to cross them at any cost. Therefore, you'd be far more likely obey without question (or at least without verbal question - you tend to keep those to yourself, for fear of repercussions). The fact that Annie can say "no" so freely to adults at age 10-11 indicates to me that she did not have that kind of upbringing. |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 17, 2015 21:00:45 GMT
[That's] not how it works with an authoritarian parent. Instead, you assume that all authority figures are going to behave like your parent should they be crossed, and thus you don't want to cross them at any cost. Therefore, you'd be far more likely obey without question (or at least without verbal question - you tend to keep those to yourself, for fear of repercussions). The fact that Annie can say "no" so freely to adults at age 10-11 indicates to me that she did not have that kind of upbringing. Thank you! Yes, exactly. Annie's a little off track, sometimes, but I've seen very little up to now that looks like an abused child. She's not even talking like herself, as someone has noted up thread. Something is wrong, very wrong, and it's not just Annie wanting to please her distant Daddy. |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 17, 2015 21:02:50 GMT
My current Wild Ass Scientific Guess:
The Bone Link was a way for Annie and Anthony to act in a united fashion, to feed each other energy, even if they weren't aware of it.
Zimmy, well meaning Zimmy, broke that, exposed it to a third party. And Now Antimony is a puppet.
===
Please note this is wild guessing; I can offer no support for it, and I won't be at all surprised or hurt to find I'm worng.
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 17, 2015 21:51:14 GMT
Like a hypnotised chicken. If she has no free will at the moment, could you still say she is giving Rey to her father? She retains agency enough that she ordered him to shut up. What's the difference? |
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Post by Purgatorius on Apr 17, 2015 22:27:37 GMT
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 17, 2015 22:30:53 GMT
A neat trick of this kind of emotional abuse: none of these adults counted as real authority figures to Annie because they weren't her dad. They were treating her with kindness and respect, not treating her like a cockroach, so they must be morons whose opinions and orders don"t matter. Except that's not how it works with an authoritarian parent. Instead, you assume that all authority figures are going to behave like your parent should they be crossed, and thus you don't want to cross them at any cost. Therefore, you'd be far more likely obey without question (or at least without verbal question - you tend to keep those to yourself, for fear of repercussions). The fact that Annie can say "no" so freely to adults at age 10-11 indicates to me that she did not have that kind of upbringing. How about two sorts of authority figures in Antimony's world? One would be the affectionate and indulgent sort you can ignore and steal from without consequences because in the end what they say doesn't really matter, they'll still treat you the same (ala Surma) and the other type being the alternating absentee- and disciplinarian type with the affection/approval-withholding stuff I said before (ala Anthony)? |
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Post by calpal on Apr 17, 2015 23:03:37 GMT
Now THAT is the reaction I was expecting from Kat upon their return to the apartments. Hmm... I wonder if Kat will simply steal Reynard away and not allow Mr. Carver to come into possession of Rey? That is assuming, of course, that she can't talk Annie out of whatever daze she is in now (which I suspect she can't).
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Post by Corvo on Apr 18, 2015 0:03:35 GMT
"H- ... I-it is just an animal, Kat. And it tried to kill me."
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Post by Chancellor on Apr 18, 2015 1:58:41 GMT
"H- ... I-it is just an animal, Kat. And it tried to kill me." [EXTERNAL SCREAMING] |
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Post by elppa284 on Apr 18, 2015 2:08:30 GMT
[That's] not how it works with an authoritarian parent. Instead, you assume that all authority figures are going to behave like your parent should they be crossed, and thus you don't want to cross them at any cost. Therefore, you'd be far more likely obey without question (or at least without verbal question - you tend to keep those to yourself, for fear of repercussions). The fact that Annie can say "no" so freely to adults at age 10-11 indicates to me that she did not have that kind of upbringing. Thank you! Yes, exactly. Annie's a little off track, sometimes, but I've seen very little up to now that looks like an abused child. She's not even talking like herself, as someone has noted up thread. Something is wrong, very wrong, and it's not just Annie wanting to please her distant Daddy. You're probably right. Her independence from other authority figures compared to how she's behaving now is absolutely terrifying. I went back and re-read some pages. Even though her father's attitude clearly cuts her much more than people realize (http://gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1005), there was still a persistent attempt on her part to maintain her own agency and her sense of morals. A part of me still really hopes that this is not anything supernatural or mind-control related though, because I'm afraid that would cheapen what's so tragic here. I don't think Annie is an abused child, but she was clearly a neglected child. Abuse and neglect are two separate things. My shot in the dark theory is that Annie's independence and many of the qualities I've come to admire from her actually comes from the neglect. They made her appear mature and collected as a child, but also crippled her from learning in a way other children can, because she cares more about appearing collected than learning. She doesn't ask her closest friends for help. She doesn't ask adults for help. Mr. Donlan had to coax it out of her in ch 37. Not only that, she showed hints of intentionally rejecting or avoiding situations that deal with affection/love. She parents herself, because her parents aren't there. But now her parent has come back, but he doesn't offer any of the support that Annie may have wanted. I don't know. I can only speculate what she's feeling here and why she's behaving this way. Annie has stated that she's afraid that she'll push Kat away, and that seems to be what's happening here. It's revealed that Annie wasn't the friend she wanted to be for Kat, and now she's pushing all the people she cares about away. I can't say that this isn't some form of supernatural mind-control ability from Anthony, but I just really don't want it to be. I would just personally prefer it if this is just about a scared and confused girl who has never been confronted with this situation before and making awful decisions as a result of it. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 2:46:41 GMT
I suppose it bears wondering why Anthony was taken into the Court in the first place? Surma and Anja were both dispositioned favorably towards magic, Brinnie has that whole Norse god relations thing going, Donny and James both ended up being important figures in the Court (a teacher and Protector respectively), but apart from his supernatural lack of people skills, the Court must have seen, or foreseen, something special in Anthony, right? Unless HIS parent(s) had attended before him and requested he receive his education there. Although Anthony has not shown many skills yet, I suppose he became an excellent surgeon and biologist with martial-arts training who could also build and launch satellites. The Court appears to value precision, learning (not necessarily intelligence), dedicated individual research as long as it serves their greater goal (whatever that is; possibly, finding fully scientific means to harness and shape the Ether), and a certain predilection towards bureaucratic intrigue, religious service to the state hierarchy if not necessarily the statesmen, and draconian penalties for the ambitious who cannot retain their power, resonating with my prevalent imagination of Byzantine aristocratic society. (The swift rise and fall of Romanos Diogenes, who made the journey from traitor to Emperor to traitor again within a few years, can be taken as an example.) Moreover, they probably predicted that he would develop such contempt for the Forest, as would be instrumental in a mid-ranked peon, in order to keep him driven and distracted simultaneously. Since the Court inserts tracking devices into students' food, unless Jones actually lied to Antimony, which I find unlikely, I suspect that their selection process might indeed involve such cynical judgments. The strange hierarchy inside the Court, divided into disciples, teachers/researchers, security guards, and a mysterious upper echelon that makes use of the former three, now makes me wonder just how insane the unseen Court authorities, if they exist at all, might actually appear to me later. Perhaps King Solomon appeared to them in a dream. |
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Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 18, 2015 3:21:38 GMT
You know what would be epically poetic?
Winsbury judo flipping Anthony.
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Post by Refugee on Apr 18, 2015 4:00:46 GMT
A part of me still really hopes that this is not anything supernatural or mind-control related though, because I'm afraid that would cheapen what's so tragic here. I don't think Annie is an abused child, but she was clearly a neglected child. Abuse and neglect are two separate things. My shot in the dark theory is that Annie's independence and many of the qualities I've come to admire from her actually comes from the neglect. They made her appear mature and collected as a child, but also crippled her from learning in a way other children can, because she cares more about appearing collected than learning. Granting that Anthony has done nothing that I have seen that rises to the level of legal neglect, I agree with all of this. I mentioned elsewhere that I don't want all this to be diagnosable: no depression or autism on Annie's part, no Asperger's for Anthony. And in a sense, having some magical force come in and trick Antimony or Anthony would be almost as bad. Again, I want the story to be about the moral choices the characters make, and the natural consequences thereof. The scene I am very much not looking forward to, but which I think must come? That would be where Annie realizes what she almost did to Reynard. That is going to come close to destroying her almost as badly as her Father did in making that demand. |
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