|
|
Post by Vilthuril on Apr 17, 2015 12:08:09 GMT
It's not mind control. She was like this when the comic started, because when your father decides everything for you, you have no personality. It took quite a while for Annie to start acting normal. I don't sense that he controlled everything she did at Good Hope; more that he didn't pay much attention to her except on his own terms/interests such as martial arts. Not that he may not have been controlling when he gave a hoot, but it wasn't a What Is Not Mandatory Is Forbidden situation like it seems to be now, and Surma was the one who actually did 90% of the paying attention and any rule setting; that's why Antimony was able to madly run around the place day and night with a set of lock-picks, chatting with psychopomps and who knows what all. And that is to what I would ascribe her social awkwardness, other than the trauma of just having her mother die: Muut, Ketrack and even Moddey Dhoo aren't exactly the best people to teach you how to hang with the middle school crowd.  As usual, heading back to the main topic after quibbling about something else: I have to admit it had not occurred to me that Kat's, " When you're a Friend you're a Friend all the way" and "I'll do what it takes to help you" position would apply to Reynardine, as it does to Annie. Definitely a ray of hope for him...and the example perhaps a good thing for Annie too? He may have the more pressing need, though, in terms of avoiding things happening right now that cannot be undone/fixed. Oy! |
|
|
|
Post by Vilthuril on Apr 17, 2015 12:26:08 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by aline on Apr 17, 2015 12:47:21 GMT
Annie refused to give renard to the Donlans back when she found out he was in her plush wolf, despite the fact that he'd just tried to kill her and she had no reason to trust or like him at the time. Despite the fact that the demand came from adults, teachers and her parents' friends, authority figures she ought to trust and listen to. And why? because she decided even a nasty demon didn't deserve to be locked up like that.
You want to tell me this Annie is the same Annie than back then? It's the opposite of everything she's ever been.
|
|
|
|
Post by todd on Apr 17, 2015 13:16:11 GMT
Annie refused to give renard to the Donlans back when she found out he was in her plush wolf, despite the fact that he'd just tried to kill her and she had no reason to trust or like him at the time. Despite the fact that the demand came from adults, teachers and her parents' friends, authority figures she ought to trust and listen to. And why? because she decided even a nasty demon didn't deserve to be locked up like that. And since then she's learned that the Court bears a lot of the responsibility for what Renard became, through its act of deception. It wouldn't have the problem of a body-snatching "demon" in its midst if it hadn't decided to solve its problems with the forest through falsehood. |
|
|
|
Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 17, 2015 13:33:54 GMT
Well one thing's for certain. If Annie gives Coyote's cousin over to Anthony, she won't need to resign from her medium position. She might have to avoid turning up for firing lest she be devoured as well.
|
|
karl
New Member
Posts: 40 
|
Post by karl on Apr 17, 2015 13:45:34 GMT
Well, this is creepy. I'm trying not to think too hard about Renard situation, muted but not turned off, but it is still creepy. Luckily Kats presence will likely prevent the transfer of ownership however the relationship between Antimony and Kat might take a hit over this. I'm also not sure what will happen to the relationship between Antimony and Renard. I wonder, if Anthony had ordered Antimony to not to talk to Kat, would she obey? Also if Kat steals Reynardine then the ownership contract would be broken, allowing the teddy bear/wolf to run loose.
I think that Antimony's current priority is not to displease her father any more. The onslaught of Kat might snap her out of it but it's also quite likely to cause an adverse reaction - pushing Kat away. Such a shame the students do not have any mobile phones, a call which leads to the presence of a trusted adult would definitely be necessary in this situation.
|
|
|
|
Post by goldenknots on Apr 17, 2015 13:50:14 GMT
I'm pretty sure that there is some very sinister form of control that Anthony is exerting over Antimony, as I said before. She has no free will at the moment and is simply acting as an automaton under his direction.
I'm on the edge of my seat, waiting to see how things work out. There are plenty of other problems worthy of attention in the story, so I don't really anticipate this particular arc consuming more than a chapter or so. The question in my mind is whether we get an immediate (relatively) rescue of Annie from the spell she is currently under (and I use "spell" deliberately) or the delayed rescue of Renard after various travails, along with a more difficult concurrent rescue of Annie.
During her stay at Good Hope, Anthony indoctrinated her, somehow, presumably without triggering any arguments from Surma, and all it took to reestablish that influence was for him to trash her self-image and leave her emotionally devastated.
I don't like Anthony.
|
|
brokshi
Full Member
About as furious as my icon appears ecstatic.
Posts: 108
|
Post by brokshi on Apr 17, 2015 14:00:41 GMT
I don't believe Antimony would ever do something like this in her right mind. But with her father having emotionally destroyed her as he did, she's not really capable of behaving normally right now. What her friends say doesn't and will continue to not matter, as long as they disagree with her father.
And let's be real, they're all going to vehemently disagree with her father at this point.
|
|
|
|
Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 17, 2015 14:06:13 GMT
Am I the only one who is actually chilled by Kat's anguish in the last panel? Its an even split between rage, betrayal, disgust and fear.
|
|
|
|
Post by pxc on Apr 17, 2015 14:11:52 GMT
I'm as big of an Anthony Carver critic as anyone, but Annie has responsibility here. She is not the little kid running around the hospital anymore. She's a young woman. She's made friends, risked her life for others, had others risk their lives for her, made mistakes and learned from them. She's grown. She is better than this. At the very least she should be a quivering sobbing mess in Kat's arms right now, wailing about how conflicted she is because she wants her father's love and approval so badly but doesn't want to lose all the important people and things in her life.
She needs to do better than this. Renard was "making a fuss"? If that is her mindset I wonder if she even would've mentioned giving Rey to her father if Kat hadn't brought it up. Or if she would've even thought to. Rey is one of the ones that has saved her life or at least from harm, multiple times. She owes both him and Kat more than this oblivious bullshit. I blame Anthony for the way he's treated her, but after years away from his direct influence, she should know by now that she doesn't NEED his approval or love. She has that from others that are also important to her. There's been enough growth in these years for her to fight back a lot better than this. There's zero fight. The best thing she's done is immediately say Kat wasn't complicit in her cheating, but that didn't cost her anything. That was just true and easily admitted. Come on Annie. You are better than this.
I'm also irritated at myself for letting a fictional online comic dig into me this much. Good writing, Tom.
|
|
|
|
Post by ctso74 on Apr 17, 2015 14:24:55 GMT
I'm pretty sure that there is some very sinister form of control that Anthony is exerting over Antimony I don't know if it's mind control. She may be simply desperate to be accepted by her father. Whether sinister control or emotional manipulation, it is very ominous. How's this scenario: Kat runs off with Rey, but he's still frozen. Out of desperation, what if she accessed the doll's hidden entrails, got the Coyote's Tooth, and cut the Annie's symbol? We've talked about using the Tooth as an Etheric scalpel, what if it's not used on Annie but the doll? Kat knows about Coyote's Tooth, and I'm betting she knows about Rey's symbol/ownership issue. Then again, maybe the doll's current state is a sign, that Rey's already moved on with Annie's permission. Right? *clears throat*... right?... |
|
|
|
Post by arf on Apr 17, 2015 14:37:36 GMT
To those who think Annie's attitude to Rey is cold; consider this:
It was her Father's request that Rey be given over to him that finally broke her.
Kat is angry at Annie, but she doesn't yet realise just how small the pieces got broken into.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deepbluediver on Apr 17, 2015 14:51:45 GMT
Ok, Kat is finally challenging Annie instead of supporting her. We'll see if this is enough to get her (Annie) to snap out of that funk.
|
|
|
|
Post by aline on Apr 17, 2015 14:52:01 GMT
I think this is too far out of character even in a shock, even if she's really desperate to please her father.
She was really upset earlier when Tony told her what he had in mind for her and now it looks like she doesn't care.
Something is at the very least altering her perception of reality.
|
|
|
|
Post by pxc on Apr 17, 2015 14:52:02 GMT
To those who think Annie's attitude to Rey is cold; consider this: It was her Father's request that Rey be given over to him that finally broke her. Kat is angry at Annie, but she doesn't yet realise just how small the pieces got broken into. I understand that. I'm also saying she has what it takes, because of her experiences and growth and relationships, to put up a much better fight than this and she's making the decision not to. Avoiding making a hard decision is still making an easier decision. |
|
|
|
Post by ginbucketfish on Apr 17, 2015 14:53:30 GMT
I'm as big of an Anthony Carver critic as anyone, but Annie has responsibility here. She is not the little kid running around the hospital anymore. She's a young woman. She's made friends, risked her life for others, had others risk their lives for her, made mistakes and learned from them. She's grown. She is better than this. At the very least she should be a quivering sobbing mess in Kat's arms right now, wailing about how conflicted she is because she wants her father's love and approval so badly but doesn't want to lose all the important people and things in her life. She needs to do better than this. Renard was "making a fuss"? If that is her mindset I wonder if she even would've mentioned giving Rey to her father if Kat hadn't brought it up. Or if she would've even thought to. Rey is one of the ones that has saved her life or at least from harm, multiple times. She owes both him and Kat more than this oblivious bullshit. I blame Anthony for the way he's treated her, but after years away from his direct influence, she should know by now that she doesn't NEED his approval or love. She has that from others that are also important to her. There's been enough growth in these years for her to fight back a lot better than this. There's zero fight. The best thing she's done is immediately say Kat wasn't complicit in her cheating, but that didn't cost her anything. That was just true and easily admitted. Come on Annie. You are better than this. I'm also irritated at myself for letting a fictional online comic dig into me this much. Good writing, Tom.
When will we get to: You got yer fight back, Carver!
I'm sure Kat is wondering why she's the more upset one! Methinks Annie has that mask super-glued on at this time. |
|
jocobo
Junior Member
Posts: 78
|
Post by jocobo on Apr 17, 2015 14:58:43 GMT
I don't think Annie is gonna give Renard to her father.
Look exactly at what she says in this page. "He made a big fuss when I told him I am to give him to my father". The part I'm focusing in is "Am to give" instead of "going to give" or even "have to give". Maybe I'm desperate and looking and shadows, but the phrasing makes it sound like it might have been something she isn't actually gonna do.
On the other hand, Reynard does appear on the court side of the various treatise, next to Kat and ot Annie and I've always thought that was trying to tell us something. So maybe this is when they become closer and Annie drifts further away.
|
|
|
|
Post by pxc on Apr 17, 2015 15:02:38 GMT
I'm as big of an Anthony Carver critic as anyone, but Annie has responsibility here. She is not the little kid running around the hospital anymore. She's a young woman. She's made friends, risked her life for others, had others risk their lives for her, made mistakes and learned from them. She's grown. She is better than this. At the very least she should be a quivering sobbing mess in Kat's arms right now, wailing about how conflicted she is because she wants her father's love and approval so badly but doesn't want to lose all the important people and things in her life. She needs to do better than this. Renard was "making a fuss"? If that is her mindset I wonder if she even would've mentioned giving Rey to her father if Kat hadn't brought it up. Or if she would've even thought to. Rey is one of the ones that has saved her life or at least from harm, multiple times. She owes both him and Kat more than this oblivious bullshit. I blame Anthony for the way he's treated her, but after years away from his direct influence, she should know by now that she doesn't NEED his approval or love. She has that from others that are also important to her. There's been enough growth in these years for her to fight back a lot better than this. There's zero fight. The best thing she's done is immediately say Kat wasn't complicit in her cheating, but that didn't cost her anything. That was just true and easily admitted. Come on Annie. You are better than this. I'm also irritated at myself for letting a fictional online comic dig into me this much. Good writing, Tom.
When will we get to: You got yer fight back, Carver!
I'm sure Kat is wondering why she's the more upset one! Methinks Annie has that mask super-glued on at this time. It took Zimmy insulting her dad. So I doubt Kat doing the same will help. Annie has proven that she doesn't yet put Kat, Rey, or herself on the same level of importance as her father. So who is? Probably only her mother. Will it take Anthony attacking Surma's memory to snap Annie out of it? How would that even happen? |
|
|
|
Post by ginbucketfish on Apr 17, 2015 15:14:38 GMT
It took Zimmy insulting her dad. So I doubt Kat doing the same will help. Annie has proven that she doesn't yet put Kat, Rey, or herself on the same level of importance as her father. So who is? Probably only her mother. Will it take Anthony attacking Surma's memory to snap Annie out of it? How would that even happen? My guess, maybe something like "I allowed your mother to indulge in foolishness for far too long, I see she left a bad impression on you" Though... on second thought, this seems unlikely, he seemed to really love her. It could be something like "Never speak of your mother to me. She is none of your concern/business" |
|
|
|
Post by lunaleaf on Apr 17, 2015 15:14:38 GMT
Annie refused to give renard to the Donlans back when she found out he was in her plush wolf, despite the fact that he'd just tried to kill her and she had no reason to trust or like him at the time. Despite the fact that the demand came from adults, teachers and her parents' friends, authority figures she ought to trust and listen to. And why? because she decided even a nasty demon didn't deserve to be locked up like that. And since then she's learned that the Court bears a lot of the responsibility for what Renard became, through its act of deception. It wouldn't have the problem of a body-snatching "demon" in its midst if it hadn't decided to solve its problems with the forest through falsehood. That makes it even worse! Now Reynard is a dear friend, someone she's trusted with her life multiple times over. And she's so far gone that she'll just hand him over as if he were a plush toy? Something is wrong- very wrong, and Rey will suffer for it if Kat can't hold her ground here. |
|
|
|
Post by Refugee on Apr 17, 2015 15:39:22 GMT
I'm holding judgment on that for now. But certainly, if it turns out that this is the result of something Anthony did to deliberately exert control over her, he needs to go down. It needn't be deliberate for it to be horrific. No indeed. But it does bear on Anthony's character. Don't know why this was spoilered, but OK: No one should have this much control over a person as old as Annie is. This is why people have been calling Anthony out. This level of emotional control is terrifying. (And this is why people have boon relating it to abuse: there are few [if any] ways to have someone become this reliant upon another outside of emotional abuse). Granted. And yet, there other signs of abuse that Annie has not shown. Something this severe should not pop up out of nowhere. And we have not been shown the consistent manipulations required to qualify as the level of abuse that would turn Annie into this...shell. There is more going on than we've seen. |
|
|
|
Post by sherni on Apr 17, 2015 15:39:42 GMT
I'm pretty sure that there is some very sinister form of control that Anthony is exerting over Antimony, as I said before. She has no free will at the moment and is simply acting as an automaton under his direction. I'm on the edge of my seat, waiting to see how things work out. There are plenty of other problems worthy of attention in the story, so I don't really anticipate this particular arc consuming more than a chapter or so. The question in my mind is whether we get an immediate (relatively) rescue of Annie from the spell she is currently under (and I use "spell" deliberately) or the delayed rescue of Renard after various travails, along with a more difficult concurrent rescue of Annie. During her stay at Good Hope, Anthony indoctrinated her, somehow, presumably without triggering any arguments from Surma, and all it took to reestablish that influence was for him to trash her self-image and leave her emotionally devastated. I don't like Anthony. Hypnosis, maybe? He could have um... planted (?) the triggers into her mind when she was a small child and now he's simply activated them to have her under his control. It could be as simple as making her believe that he is always right and must never be questioned and everything is going to be OK now that he's in charge. I don't like Anthony either. I hope Coyote sits on him. |
|
|
|
Post by juxander on Apr 17, 2015 15:49:44 GMT
I'm pretty sure that there is some very sinister form of control that Anthony is exerting over Antimony, as I said before. She has no free will at the moment and is simply acting as an automaton under his direction. I'm actually starting to worry just a little bit that mind control may be a factor here. I mean, I didn't expect her to have snapped out of it and decided to tell her dad to go to hell about getting control over Reynardine just yet, but I kind of expected her to be more unhappy about everything that's happened. More upset. She seems pretty robotic here. (I completely acknowledge this could be just because she's been so blindsided though.) And...all the times we've seen Surma after she hooked up with Anthony...was she ever wearing her make up? Granted she was in the hospital, but Tony could've brought her make up from home the way Kat brought Annie her make up after she passed out in Divine. And when she was with Eglamore she was in school...and she was wearing her make up. Bear in mind this is just me thinking out loud, but even just considering what I'm considering is giving me a spooky feeling. I came up with a theory this morning that I keep mulling over. One of the biggest mysteries as-yet unsolved is why Surma chose Anthony over Eglamore. We know the court takes an interest in people with special abilities... what if Anthony has the ability to influence beings of the aether? Annie surely seems to have that gift; shadow, basil, mort, even coyote all took a natural liking to her. What if Surma and Annie both just fall under Anthony's sway subconsciously? |
|
|
|
Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 17, 2015 15:50:20 GMT
Perhaps the answer is in the ether? Either that or its rooted in that period between Antimony walking in on her father and mother bowing to the inevitable and when we first see her at court. Unless that surgery did something and it isn't purely psychological or mystical.
|
|
quark
Full Member
Posts: 137
|
Post by quark on Apr 17, 2015 15:52:44 GMT
I was thinking - what would Anthony need Renard for, anyway? Just remove him from Antimony, since he still sees him as a rival for Surma's affections? Does he think he's a dangerous demon, still? Does he want to experiment on him, or torture him? Kill him? Use him as a bargaining chip against the Forest or the Court?
|
|
|
|
Post by machival on Apr 17, 2015 15:56:52 GMT
I'm pretty sure that there is some very sinister form of control that Anthony is exerting over Antimony, as I said before. She has no free will at the moment and is simply acting as an automaton under his direction. I'm actually starting to worry just a little bit that mind control may be a factor here. I mean, I didn't expect her to have snapped out of it and decided to tell her dad to go to hell about getting control over Reynardine just yet, but I kind of expected her to be more unhappy about everything that's happened. More upset. She seems pretty robotic here. (I completely acknowledge this could be just because she's been so blindsided though.) And...all the times we've seen Surma after she hooked up with Anthony...was she ever wearing her make up? Granted she was in the hospital, but Tony could've brought her make up from home the way Kat brought Annie her make up after she passed out in Divine. And when she was with Eglamore she was in school...and she was wearing her make up. Bear in mind this is just me thinking out loud, but even just considering what I'm considering is giving me a spooky feeling. I came up with a theory this morning that I keep mulling over. One of the biggest mysteries as-yet unsolved is why Surma chose Anthony over Eglamore. We know the court takes an interest in people with special abilities... what if Anthony has the ability to influence beings of the aether? Annie surely seems to have that gift; shadow, basil, mort, even coyote all took a natural liking to her. What if Surma and Annie both just fall under Anthony's sway subconsciously? That adds a whole lot of creepy to just about everything. Evidence wise, I think we've seen too little of Anthony to rule your theory out, but I'm doubtful that Tom would put those kinds of implications into the Anthony/Surma relationship. It seems too dark for the way comic has generally been written. quark, I'm guessing Anthony is procuring Renard on the Court's behalf. The Headmaster wants Renard returned to captivity and doesn't like the current situation of him being under Antimony's ownership (as seen when he asked for Renard after making smitty the medium). So Anthony might very well be the headmaster's Plan B. Also, Quark, are you an up, down, top, bottom, Strange, or Charm? |
|
|
|
Post by Refugee on Apr 17, 2015 15:57:25 GMT
[Anthony] seemed to really love [Surma]. It could be something like "Never speak of your mother to me. She is none of your concern/business" "She is my Mother! Of course she is my concern! You are my Father! Of course your hand is my concern! If you and Mom are not my concern, then I am not your concern!" This exchange is more polished than I expect even Annie to be capable of in her current state, but that something along these lines did not happen at all is a sign of just how badly Annie has been broken. Kat, in the name of your love for Annie, do not abandon her now. Do not leave in a snit. She needs you to be there, in her face, demanding answers. At the very least, take Reynard, by force if necessary, and go to your parents, or Eglamore, or even Jones. You may have to leave Annie to save Reynard, and to call in those who might be able to help, but doing so would not be abandonment. Something is very wrong. |
|
|
|
Post by Refugee on Apr 17, 2015 16:06:04 GMT
I came up with a theory this morning that I keep mulling over. One of the biggest mysteries as-yet unsolved is why Surma chose Anthony over Eglamore. We know the court takes an interest in people with special abilities... what if Anthony has the ability to influence beings of the aether? Annie surely seems to have that gift; shadow, basil, mort, even coyote all took a natural liking to her. What if Surma and Annie both just fall under Anthony's sway subconsciously? That adds a whole lot of creepy to just about everything. Evidence wise, I think we've seen too little of Anthony to rule your theory out, but I'm doubtful that Tom would put those kinds of implications into the Anthony/Surma relationship. It seems too dark for the way comic has generally been written. No darker than the outright child abuse people have been alleging. I rather like juxander's guess, given that the same talent works so differently depending on the nature of the person wielding it. |
|
|
|
Post by elppa284 on Apr 17, 2015 16:49:16 GMT
God I feel bad for Annie. We've seen so little of how Annie normally interacts with her dad. There had to been a short amount of time when she was alone with her dad before he sent her away, right? I only remember the flashbacks to before Surma died, but I don't remember if Annie was sent to the gunnerkrigg court immediately afterwards or whether there was an interlude where the two were alone together. Maybe this was simply how Annie interacted with her dad: she had obeyed everything he said because she desperately needed his approval in the past, and then he suddenly disappeared. If that's the case, then she's not really behaving out of order from her perspective. It's hard to break a habit, especially if that habit is all she's ever known. Then Annie might not even realize she's doing anything abnormal from other people's perspective.
Kat's parents clearly have a stable relationship with each other and with their daughter, but Annie couldn't possibly have seen that much of the specifics of how Kat interacts with her parents. For all she knows, a child should obey everything her father says because if he loved her, how could he possibly hurt her? Annie has always been a bit emotionally stunted. It's only natural that it's going to start affecting her everyday interactions more severely from now on.
It's funny how Kat will always have the freedom to act out or argue with her parents, because she lives with the confidence that her parents love her. Annie doesn't have that reassurance, and ends up a "better child" as a result of it. I put those words in quotes because from an outside perspective, some of the most dysfunctional children can appear to be really well-behaved and obedient. I get the feeling Annie already suspects deep down that her own father doesn't care for her at all. Whether that is true remains to be seen, but kids pick up on that. Annie might be emotionally stunted, but she isn't emotionally insensitive.
I hope Kat the other adults will take that all into perspective.
|
|
quark
Full Member
Posts: 137
|
Post by quark on Apr 17, 2015 17:10:36 GMT
I came up with a theory this morning that I keep mulling over. One of the biggest mysteries as-yet unsolved is why Surma chose Anthony over Eglamore. We know the court takes an interest in people with special abilities... what if Anthony has the ability to influence beings of the aether? Annie surely seems to have that gift; shadow, basil, mort, even coyote all took a natural liking to her. What if Surma and Annie both just fall under Anthony's sway subconsciously? That adds a whole lot of creepy to just about everything. Evidence wise, I think we've seen too little of Anthony to rule your theory out, but I'm doubtful that Tom would put those kinds of implications into the Anthony/Surma relationship. It seems too dark for the way comic has generally been written. It is dark, but it could fit. Especially since he's very obsessed with control - a gift like that could definitely express itself in being able to control etheral beings, or it could help him perform a risky, etheral procedure on an elemental to get her under his control. On the other hand I always saw her attractiveness to ethereal beings coming from her mother - she was the court medium, and she tricked Renard without him noticing. On her choosing Anthony over Eglamore... there could be a lot of reasons, but given his recent behaviour: Probably she wanted to bind him to the court. A man with his talents is dangerous if he's working against you. It is strange that he who wouldn't even dabble in magics and only work with science could perform this kind of (magical?) surgery, and it means that he's willing to do a lot to achieve his goals. quark, I'm guessing Anthony is procuring Renard on the Court's behalf. The Headmaster wants Renard returned to captivity and doesn't like the current situation of him being under Antimony's ownership (as seen when he asked for Renard after making smitty the medium). So Anthony might very well be the headmaster's Plan B. Also, Quark, are you an up, down, top, bottom, Strange, or Charm? I thought that, too, but I'm not sure. Anthony does have his own agenda that might or might not be aligned with the Court's. In Microsat 5, Donald had to steal the supplies Anthony requested, so it's probably not all puppies and sunshine between those two parties. And I almost forgot the headmaster's 'request' - but wouldn't Anthony then just say 'you will transfer control of Renard to the court'? (Also, Strange quark  |
|
