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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 14:25:47 GMT
...even that memory could be some sort of protection. I suspect that this shows a pattern that ties all of the comic together: memory as a talisman, keeping people alive, nurturing their love. It surfaces in all Etheric creatures, ranging from Mort to Coyote, as remnants of the imagination of long-deceased people; it surfaces in Renard allowing his love for Surma to influence his love for her daughter, whereas Renard in turn keeps alive memories of Surma for Antimony. Disruptions of affection, such as those between Annie and Renard in Fire Spike, or the more long-standing one between Renard and Eglamore, are overcome due to shared memories of bliss, and the desire to recreate them in the present. Even the dead are still allowed to make one last decision for their own beliefs and memory: whom of the many psychopomps will you choose as your final guide, thereby strengthening both of you as symbols? It doesn't come with Anja Donlan's shield program and its assorted light and magic, but the make-up may nonetheless protect Annie because of the narrative pattern that it forms part of. |
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Post by keef on Apr 7, 2015 14:38:27 GMT
Oh thanks sapientcoffee, I had more or less forgotten that song. I love it. Hmmm, the mood in these threads has turned quite sour... THANKS ANTHONY!  I feel so out of place here right now, guess it's time for a forum break. Their love for the comic makes some people act in strange ways. This chapter is awesome in a painful way, but because it touches peoples real experiences and opinions, the forum is almost unreadable at the moment. You could block users for a while until the dust settles. |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 7, 2015 15:03:56 GMT
I can't belive I'm about to do this... and I hate it. Anthony isn't acting evil if you look at this from a neutral view. ... Rey. Lets be honest. The man finds that his daughter is living with the murderous demon that tried to seduce his wife. For all he knows it's seducing his daughter.Anthony may be cold, but he's at the point where he has no choice. Welcome to the Reality Club. Here's your helmet, fireproof cloak, song sheet...oh, and a secret handshake diagram is printed on the back of that. Watch the little finger, people get it wrong all the time. I like, very much, your point that Antimony's Father is acting correctly under the circumstances, even though you strongly dislike Anthony himself. Annie did wrong. She put her friend Kat at risk. She has ignored warnings from adults she respects, and has evaded ordinary punishments. She's hanging out with entities of, at best, questionable intent. This isn't about grades or cheating, but about her moral code. Her Father may well be the only person capable of getting her attention like this. I don't like him, but I'm not going to file a complaint charge against him, either. |
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Post by The Anarch on Apr 7, 2015 15:43:22 GMT
I know, right?  |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 7, 2015 15:43:23 GMT
If the "I support Mr. Carver" banners don't disappear, there has clearly been a misunderstanding. Carver is nothing short of the evilest, vilest thing to appear in the comic. I'm going to punch a hole in my wall if he doesn't get his comeuppance very soon.It's not that I support Mr. Carver so much, it's that we don't know everything yet, and people are making vile, unfounded accusations against him based on facts not in evidence. People are even angry at Tom for making Annie unhappy. |
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Post by machival on Apr 7, 2015 15:53:50 GMT
The Bone spears. He was clearly targeting the flame within her. It will kill her someday, he knows it first hand. He was trying to save her life by ridding her of it. Problem there is that by all appearances the "flame within her" is antimony's very soul. If Anthony was seriously attempting to rid Annie of it, then he was attempting to put her into the same state Surma was in on the day of her death. |
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Post by Vilthuril on Apr 7, 2015 16:03:21 GMT
...by all appearances the "flame within her" is antimony's very soul. If Anthony was seriously attempting to rid Annie of it, then he was attempting to put her into the same state Surma was in on the day of her death. I have some doubt about this. It seems to me that the flame nature cannot be all that Surma was/all that constituted her "soul," or there would have been nothing left of her for Antimony to take into the Ether. And after all, the original flame ancestor seems to be enough generations back that from a family-tree standpoint they are mostly human, though the (imaginary, of course) physics/metaphysics of the situation may of course be complex. Anyway, removing the flame might indeed kill Antimony, but then again...  |
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Post by machival on Apr 7, 2015 16:15:10 GMT
...by all appearances the "flame within her" is antimony's very soul. If Anthony was seriously attempting to rid Annie of it, then he was attempting to put her into the same state Surma was in on the day of her death. I have some doubt about this. It seems to me that the flame nature cannot be all that Surma was/all that constituted her "soul," or there would have been nothing left of her for Antimony to take into the Ether. And after all, the original flame ancestor seems to be enough generations back that from a family-tree standpoint they are mostly human, though the (imaginary, of course) physics/metaphysics of the situation may of course be complex. Anyway, removing the flame might indeed kill Antimony, but then again... Either way, the comic has been very clear that the fire transfer from Surma to Antimony is what killed Surma, so it's not unreasonable to conclude that losing the fire by some other contrivance would be lethal for Antimony. (My personal theory is that while Antimony's body is mostly human, her soul is largely the spirit of her fire elemental progenitor, combined with the scorched embers of what would have been her human soul.) edit: still though, it remains to be seen what Anthony was hoping to accomplish with the bone lasers. For all we know he was using Antimony to recharge microsat 5's batteries. |
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karl
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Post by karl on Apr 7, 2015 16:23:16 GMT
I can't belive I'm about to do this... and I hate it. Anthony isn't acting evil if you look at this from a neutral view. ... Rey. Lets be honest. The man finds that his daughter is living with the murderous demon that tried to seduce his wife. For all he knows it's seducing his daughter.Anthony may be cold, but he's at the point where he has no choice. Welcome to the Reality Club. Here's your helmet, fireproof cloak, song sheet...oh, and a secret handshake diagram is printed on the back of that. Watch the little finger, people get it wrong all the time. I like, very much, your point that Antimony's Father is acting correctly under the circumstances, even though you strongly dislike Anthony himself. Annie did wrong. She put her friend Kat at risk. She has ignored warnings from adults she respects, and has evaded ordinary punishments. She's hanging out with entities of, at best, questionable intent. This isn't about grades or cheating, but about her moral code. Her Father may well be the only person capable of getting her attention like this. I don't like him, but I'm not going to file a complaint charge against him, either. While Anthonys actions can be considered correct according to the information he has, what about Antimonys perspective on things? Why not ask her about that stuff he's concerned with? A chance to defend herself, to ask about her circumstances? "Why are you resorting to cheating Antimony? Is the school too hard, do you find it boring and unnecessary or is it something else?" (I have no answer to this one though) "I've noticed that you hang around some quite dangerous creatures that are hostile to the court and could present a danger to you. Why do you do that?" "I found a use to my spiritual abilities and connecting with my etheric side. I am also a honorary citizen of the forest and hence I don't think Coyote or Ysengrin is going to harm me. I also have the capability to protect myself and support from Jones and The Protector of the Court (that guy) and the court medium". (assumed answer) And so on. I'm irked by the fact Antimony does not get a chance to get a word in and a guy who has been absent when all that happened. He might have (likely does have) but that does not include information Antimony has. Even if she does not get to overrule her punishments, she should be able to explain her actions. |
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Post by fish on Apr 7, 2015 16:28:58 GMT
Next is her blinker stone, then he will cut her hair short. Then there will be a 5-year timeskip wIhere she only studies in isolation (?) Short hair might be ok (if she wants short hair - against her will is terrible) - I think Antimony would rock it just as well as Kat. I'm actually still waiting to see if a Dramatic Haircut™ on Annie's part will occur in the story or not. Surma had short hair once, Annie might feel like "drastically" changing her own image at some point as well. |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 7, 2015 16:37:52 GMT
And I'd say finally - that just shows the poor execution of this on Anthony's part*. If he thinks her friends are possible bad influences he clearly knows nothing about them, (or Antimony, for that matter) and isolating her from them achieves nothing but pain. Doing something like actually speaking to Antimony first would be a much better place to start fixing this.. First you get her attention, which has proven remarkably difficult to do. I'd say more on the simple trouble shooting strategy of trying to isolate the source of the problem, but it's not clear to me that even that is what Mr. Carver is trying to do. I will, as I encourage others to do, wait until the scene is over, possibly the whole chapter. I think it's not; that's just the precipitating incident that revealed a deeper problem, but I can't ignore the possibility that everything everybody's saying about Anthony being the evilest evil to ever spread evil at the evil Court, just for the sake of being EVIL! is correct. I just don't know yet, and want to consider other scenarios. She will, in addition, make new friends among the Eighthninth year students. If, that is, she can keep from using her size and age to lord it over them, and I personally have absolutely no doubt she'll fall into that trap. She has been humbled, and needed that badly. Why? Because my fingers are disobeying me by inserting sense-reversing typos, and must be punished even harder! They've shrugged off the slammed desk drawer I used last time, but now...finger nails, meet vice grips! Quit your whining, or else...[turns on table saw] All out of my sincere love and affection for them, of course.  What I meant to say was, "I have no doubt Antimony will avoid that trap". My fingers apologize. Most sincerely. |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 7, 2015 16:40:54 GMT
The Bone spears. He was clearly targeting the flame within her. It will kill her someday, he knows it first hand. He was trying to save her life by ridding her of it. Problem there is that by all appearances the "flame within her" is antimony's very soul. If Anthony was seriously attempting to rid Annie of it, then he was attempting to put her into the same state Surma was in on the day of her death. Problem is, we do not know that he was the one who them there, or why, or that he was responsible for her coma. It's possible he is, of course. Tom's certainly made it look that way, and gosh, he's never misdirected our attention beforegleefully misdirects us all the bloody time. We just don't know. "Waiting is." |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 7, 2015 16:52:13 GMT
While Anthonys actions can be considered correct according to the information he has, what about Antimonys perspective on things? Why not ask her about that stuff he's concerned with? A chance to defend herself, to ask about her circumstances? Roughly speaking, that's pretty much what I'm asking the forum to do in regards to Anthony. This is what I mean by a double standard: Annie's been caught out at something most schools would expel you for, on the spot. "OK, yeah, that was not good, but, you know, she means well, and we like her, and she's done good things, so, yeah, let's not actually punish her or make her unhappy, let's just try to understand what her problem is, have some tea, it'll be fine, I'm sure." Her Father is taking actions, not only to punish, or as I keep saying, get her attention; but to isolate her from possible bad influences until he can sort things out. But people aren't just criticizing his manner, they're calling him a child abuser and demanding he die a horrible death. They're even criticizing Tom for making Annie, and her fans, unhappy. And the scene isn't even over yet. |
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Post by Vilthuril on Apr 7, 2015 17:09:30 GMT
Welcome to the Reality Club. Here's your helmet, fireproof cloak, song sheet...oh, and a secret handshake diagram is printed on the back of that. Watch the little finger, people get it wrong all the time. Lo, Chendzee'a, be of good cheer! I suspect you will be perfectly fine saying what you said and/or disagreeing in some or many ways (for does anyone really disagree on everything?) with We Who Are The Evil League of Evil(*), so long as - unlike a small number of folks - you do not feel the need to respond obsessively and repetitively to every single post someone on the "other side" makes, or call us commissars, parent haters, evil judgers without evidence, deniers of The One True Reality(tm), or such not. Heck, a number of other people have said things very similar to what you did, and yet seem to be doing quite well in the forums. (*I suppose this should be "Us That Are..." or "Us, Who Are..." in order to be grammatical, but well, there it is.) Oo! Oo! On that *ahem* 'note' - and many more - my son had the first item below open in Youtube this morning. I, on the other hand, am particularly partial to the second one; five hundred Evil Points from my personal stash to anyone who can guess two of the three particular places where I laughed out loud (responses - if any! if any! - by message are good, in order not to clog things up!) |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 7, 2015 17:51:02 GMT
We Who Are The Evil League of Evil, Hey, that's my line. |
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karl
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Post by karl on Apr 7, 2015 17:57:32 GMT
While Anthonys actions can be considered correct according to the information he has, what about Antimonys perspective on things? Why not ask her about that stuff he's concerned with? A chance to defend herself, to ask about her circumstances? Roughly speaking, that's pretty much what I'm asking the forum to do in regards to Anthony. This is what I mean by a double standard: Annie's been caught out at something most schools would expel you for, on the spot. "OK, yeah, that was not good, but, you know, she means well, and we like her, and she's done good things, so, yeah, let's not actually punish her or make her unhappy, let's just try to understand what her problem is, have some tea, it'll be fine, I'm sure." I kind of think that this line of thought is nonsense. I'm not arguing that she should not be punished for cheating however the severity of punishment should take intentions and previous behaviour into account. Murder vs. manslaughter (I'm not very good at examples, but y'know intentions do matter right?). Yes, they should have sat down, have some tea and talk about the problem in length, try to understand what her problem is and work out a solution. Solve the problem that caused her to resort to cheating. Her Father is taking actions, not only to punish, or as I keep saying, get her attention; but to isolate her from possible bad influences until he can sort things out. Taking her attention? A simple "Hello" from her father would have all of her attention. A simple "Antimony" did. Addressing the problem should not be done immidately after the class, especially after this class, but rather after the schoolday and scheduled beforehand. It should not come as a surprise like "You have been cheating for a while now so starting now you are going to be held back a year". It should have been "We have discovered about your cheating and we are having a meeting concerning it on Thursday at 16.00. Your attendance is mandatory." and the verdict and further actions should be determined after the meeting. Antimony gets to say her piece and then the court assembles and delivers judgement. And that meeting, with Antimony included should have taken place the moment they realize that cheating has become the norm. And there should have been official warnings and her grades should have taken cheating into account before any of that. And "isolating from possible bad influences" and "until he can sort things out". Both are nonsense. What bad influences, how does one determine what is a bad influence? And he does not sort things out. All concerned parties together should sort things out, Antimony included. But people aren't just criticizing his manner, they're calling him a child abuser and demanding he die a horrible death. They're even criticizing Tom for making Annie, and her fans, unhappy. And the scene isn't even over yet. Well Antimonys father is approaching this matter in a way he should not. That is not how you handle things like that. This does looks like abuse. First the humiliation, then the book, then disregarding her questions about his well-being and then swinging down the hammer. She is not even thinking straight anymore, as implied by the art-shift. Right now she would agree to anything, just to make it stop. The matter Anthony addressed are perfectly valid. The way he did that is not. You do not deal out the punishment in such a situation without hearing her out in a calm and collected situation. What happened to Antimony after her father called her? Was she in a state of mind where she could carefully think about her situation? Mr. Donlan handled it well - he gave her a moment to calm down. Anthony utilized her heightened state of mind to unmercifully press on. That is the problem. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 7, 2015 18:49:03 GMT
[edit] Partly ninja'd, mostly directed at the forum in general instead of Refugee. I swear karl's post wasn't displaying for me 20min ago. Damn Proboards. [/edit] While Anthonys actions can be considered correct according to the information he has, what about Antimonys perspective on things? Why not ask her about that stuff he's concerned with? A chance to defend herself, to ask about her circumstances? Roughly speaking, that's pretty much what I'm asking the forum to do in regards to Anthony. This is what I mean by a double standard: Annie's been caught out at something most schools would expel you for, on the spot. "OK, yeah, that was not good, but, you know, she means well, and we like her, and she's done good things, so, yeah, let's not actually punish her or make her unhappy, let's just try to understand what her problem is, have some tea, it'll be fine, I'm sure." Her Father is taking actions, not only to punish, or as I keep saying, get her attention; but to isolate her from possible bad influences until he can sort things out. I think we agree on the main point but disagree on details... Antimony's presence in class, with a book apparently reserved for her, strongly suggests that she got away with most or all of her cheating. Otherwise the Court would be incompetent or organizationally perverse. That is, she got away with it until Anthony returned and established the extent of it by being granted access to Antimony's classmates' records and work in that previous closed term... which would be In My Humble Experience extraordinary delving for a school for kids of this age, but maybe not a father with whom the smallest thing can carry the greatest weight. If that means "perfectionism" then that may explain approval and affection-withholding if Surma's death doesn't, because that's a useful tactic for keeping a child always striving. Anthony got Antimony's attention just by returning; the rest was shock and awe. An office is the proper place for this conversation. Also a misbehaving child is not a faulty circuit or a hemorrhaging vessel; extraction, isolation, being publicly laid open for "repair" should be a last resort, not the first. With no patience for things etheric I also question Mr. Carver's competence in this operation with regard to which friends and activities she should be allowed to keep and what abilities she should be allowed to practice. These things said, what he has done in the comic does not appear to rise to the level of abuse without Antimony's coma/the bonelasers incident. There is an alternative explanation for that, which I've covered in a previous post. What he's doing is abysmal parenting and titanic red-flag raising but of the things I'm sure Anthony's done, though unpleasant, I'm not yet sure he's abusive. He may have been misinformed by whoever his contact in the Court was. I'm also not sure I'd want Renard the Fox hanging out with my daughter, though if my daughter was part fire-elemental like Antimony I could possibly adjust depending on boundaries and whether he thought of her as a child, a girl or a woman... but that's a whole other thread, as complicated as the Antimony/Renard relationship is. Like I said before, genteel forum-goers, there are meta reasons for expecting more from Anthony than we've seen. Maybe complete vindication or exculpatory evidence won't be coming down the pike but I do expect some more gray-shading because that's how this comic rolls. Hmmm, the mood in these threads has turned quite sour... THANKS ANTHONY! I feel so out of place here right now, guess it's time for a forum break. Their love for the comic makes some people act in strange ways. This chapter is awesome in a painful way, but because it touches peoples real experiences and opinions, the forum is almost unreadable at the moment. You could block users for a while until the dust settles. Eh, the forum is just slightly more like the rest of the internet than usual. You should see what the Butt Zone is doing. I think it needs some hemorrhoid cream. But speaking of returns to norms, perhaps it will cheer people up if they think of the return of Anthony and the rules and restrictions that he is laying down as a potential return to the earliest phases of the comic. Antimony will be (somewhat) on her own again, looking to make friends, probably still exploring/escaping... |
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 7, 2015 18:58:23 GMT
I know it's a Very Bad Idea to wade into such a vitriolic debate, but I shall do so regardless. Spoilered for length: I can't belive I'm about to do this... and I hate it.
Anthony isn't acting evil if you look at this from a neutral view.
His daughter was caught cheating. She could be expelled for that, what he did was fair, even if it sucked.
He made her take off her makeup. A bit strict and prudish, but dads can be quirky like that, it doesn't make him evil. It's within his right honestly.
The Bone spears. He was clearly targeting the flame within her. It will kill her someday, he knows it first hand. He was trying to save her life by ridding her of it.
Removing Kat. This is a byproduct of her being held back a grade. Not to mention that it could be said Kat is a bad influence, look at the trouble her bots cause.
Removing the Forest. Annie is not neutral, she does not have the Courts interests at heart, she consorts with the enemy honestly. Hence why she wasn't chosen as medium.
An Aside. Annie has been in a good deal of trouble. Zimmy, Robots, Killer Ghosts, Coyote and Grin, most of it due to her running amok. What father would allow that.
Rey. Lets be honest. The man finds that his daughter is living with the murderous demon that tried to seduce his wife. For all he knows it's seducing his daughter.
Anthony may be cold, but he's at the point where he has no choice. I mean he looks at Annie and sees his dead wife. It doesn't help that Annie was the one who killed her indirectly and then took her soul away LITERALLY, walked it out the door. That has to hurt a lot, and makes it hard to deal with her. So I can understand his distance to a point. A cowardly thing, but I get it.
As for his actions, he's doing it to help her, misguided as he is. "Is he really misguided, step back and look at this from the court and his view?"
He knows shes going to hate him. So he has accepted that, hence his chill manner. Or he's shut himself down emotionally because he feels horrible for what he has to do to save her life. Or he's simply one of those cold academic types. It doesn't mean he doesn't love his daughter, it just means he's emotionally retarded due to being over analytical.
And now I hate myself, because I really want to kill this man, but I can't find fault in his actions other than him being so cold about it. You make valid points, ser, but you leave out a few critical things. - Anthony is a careful and meticulous man. He almost certainly has sources in the Court - either the TicTocs, as have been speculated, or he could call and chat with his old schoolmates. Any of them could have told him that Rey was no threat to Annie's life. (For example if he called Donny, for example, Donny would talk to Eggers, who would attest to Rey's good character.)
- He does not have the authority to blockade the Forest Medium from doing her job in the Forest. He would know that, and he probably knows he'll cause a major diplomatic incident. For him to be willing to do so, considering his uber-rationalist viewpoint, he must have some reason beyond "The Forest is bad for my daughter".
- About the makeup, it's not within his rights to do it so abruptly and flagrantly. While saying "please take off your makeup, Ms. Carver, it's not allowed in my class" would be within his rights, calling it "ridiculous" publicly in a way calculated to cause maximum humiliation is NOT. That's cruelty, and possibly emotional abuse.
- Kat is a clear positive influence on Annie. Tony had Donnie as a friend, he knows that friends can help deal with difficult times (like his romantic misadventures with Brinnie). He knows Kat is smart. If his interests were really to help Annie academically, as has been alleged, he should encourage her to be tutored by Kat (as long as they were to put into place a new system to prevent cheating, of course).
- Forcing her to move out of her dorm is unnecessary; removing his daughter's social network is cruel. It makes no sense from the perspective of the remote but caring father you postulate.
- But even if all of these actions were justified in context, there is no reason to make such draconian actions without talking to Annie privately first! Anthony has her attention instantly by entering the room; she obviously respects his opinion; there's a good chance he'd be successful in getting her to change her ways if that was actually what he cared about.
Tony is logical and intelligent. None of these actions make sense without a hidden agenda. And if this agenda isn't towards Annie's benefit (and that seems likely currently), he's morally reprehensible for sacrificing his daughter's happiness as part of that bargain. The only agenda that possibly fits right now is a concerted effort to cut his daughter off from all positive aspects of her life that she's developed in the last three years at GKC. Otherwise, it's just too coincidental that his plan requires exactly the worst things he can take from Annie. There may be another reason Tom reveals later. There probably will be; Tom never makes 2D characters. But I very much doubt it will be sufficient to justify what he's done here. I'm all in favor of waiting and seeing, but I hope we can all agree that Tony's actions are very cruel here? In real life, one must judge people off what is known currently, once that evidence is large. And one could classify the current evidence against Tony as damning. Again, there will be justification some day, but the theory about Tony as a benevolent, distant father has many holes in it. (Also, little thing - Refugee, it's rude to triple-post like that bleh  ) |
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 7, 2015 20:20:02 GMT
However, Tony has not requested the "plushie", but Rey. He said "this control". Annie's control over Renard currently consists of her claim on the plushie. And she has not always liked the things she's seen when peeking using her blinker stone. That could make one gunshy about using it. But some of those things are the best reason ever to do it. Jack suddenly became a very unpleasant dude and looked worse than some do in their coffins, remember?.. So, maybe her dad is infested with some ether-cooties and is in urgent need of squishing or magical stinkbomb pesticides, too? Or maybe not - but this really needs checking! Zimmy's contact with him, however fleeting and remote, automatically puts him into a high-risk group in itself, even before anyone had any extra observations. |
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Post by Chancellor on Apr 7, 2015 20:38:45 GMT
However, Tony has not requested the "plushie", but Rey. He said "this control". Annie's control over Renard currently consists of her claim on the plushie. And she has not always liked the things she's seen when peeking using her blinker stone. That could make one gunshy about using it. But some of those things are the best reason ever to do it. Jack suddenly became a very unpleasant dude and looked worse than some do in their coffins, remember?.. So, maybe her dad is infested with some ether-cooties and is in urgent need of squishing or magical stinkbomb pesticides, too? Or maybe not - but this really needs checking! Zimmy's contact with him, however fleeting and remote, automatically puts him into a high-risk group in itself, even before anyone had any extra observations. I don't see it as likely, but maybe at least possible to consider that perhaps getting Ether-Punched by Zimmy could have left some Zimmingham nasties lodged in his braincase as well. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 7, 2015 20:46:00 GMT
And she has not always liked the things she's seen when peeking using her blinker stone. That could make one gunshy about using it. But some of those things are the best reason ever to do it. Jack suddenly became a very unpleasant dude and looked worse than some do in their coffins, remember?.. So, maybe her dad is infested with some ether-cooties and is in urgent need of squishing or magical stinkbomb pesticides, too? Or maybe not - but this really needs checking! Zimmy's contact with him, however fleeting and remote, automatically puts him into a high-risk group in itself, even before anyone had any extra observations. I didn't say she shouldn't do it, I said reasons she wouldn't do it. If I were her I'd be peeking at all sorts of stuff around the Court and trying to develop ether-sight as quickly as possible so that I wouldn't have to make myself vulnerable by leaving my body to do so. And because I am not her I'd be doing all sorts of other stuff too, asking all sorts of questions, getting up to various other things... |
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Post by davidm on Apr 7, 2015 21:20:32 GMT
Interesting to watch the hypocrisy... we have so many in audience with all sorts of hateful wishes for dad such as extreme torture. No sense of innocent till proven guilty, when obvious there could be reasons... Dad is evil for his coldness to daughter (no physical violence, he technically as parent is justified in punishment, grounding, etc when she cheats to pass school grades), but ok to wish all sorts of physical violence and worse on him.
Eg in words of Jones, this could be a 'fairly transparent ruse' to try and protect his daughter, or he could be damaged as Jack was.
(transparent ruse part - if he did his homework he would know the answer annie gives to "transfer Rey control to me", he would expect to be trusted less than those that asked before. So goal is different than it appears just like the "transparent ruse" by team forest to drop seeds)
History... we had foreshadowing that Dad acts cold when he feels completely different inside, he has been in extreme hiding for some reason (needed satellite to send supplies in untraceable way), he was doctor who was completely obsessed with curing his wife, he may view the fire elemental part of Annie as a cancer linked to genetic flaw. Real life Angelia Jolie is famous for having parts of her removed to reduce risk of cancer. In fiction, lots of examples of a hero with a cancer that gives him super powers for a while till it is removed to save his life.
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 7, 2015 21:31:29 GMT
Interesting to watch the hypocrisy... we have so many in audience with all sorts of hateful wishes for dad such as extreme torture. No sense of innocent till proven guilty, when obvious there could be reasons... Dad is evil for his coldness to daughter (no physical violence, he technically as parent is justified in punishment, grounding, etc when she cheats to pass school grades), but ok to wish all sorts of physical violence and worse on him. Ehh. I only did that early on in my posting and admitted to being wrong on that count, but I still maintain the right to criticize what I see is questionable behavior on his part. Protecting someone's physical health is arguably futile if you fail to do so for their mental and/or emotional health. Not much point in physically living if you're dead on the inside. |
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Post by erichwanh on Apr 7, 2015 21:32:30 GMT
Since I'm new (Hello back to the folks that welcomed me!), I may not have noticed if this was already talked about. The name of this chapter is The Tree. Can this be about hoe Annie said she never wanted to go to the tree without Kat, thereby being either a breach, or a strengthening, of their relationship?
And I'm going just come out and say it again, Anthony is a dick. Hard love or otherwise, totally being a dick.
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Post by davidm on Apr 7, 2015 21:36:59 GMT
Interesting to watch the hypocrisy... we have so many in audience with all sorts of hateful wishes for dad such as extreme torture. No sense of innocent till proven guilty, when obvious there could be reasons... Dad is evil for his coldness to daughter (no physical violence, he technically as parent is justified in punishment, grounding, etc when she cheats to pass school grades), but ok to wish all sorts of physical violence and worse on him. Ehh. I only did that early on in my posting and admitted to being wrong on that count, but I still maintain the right to criticize what I see is questionable behavior on his part. Protecting someone's physical health is arguably futile if you fail to do so for their mental and/or emotional health. Not much point in physically living if you're dead on the inside. Yes, and that is common element/failing of heroes in fiction. In real life chemotherapy does do nasty stuff to some people for short period of time, including emotionally. In this situation we have too little evidence to judge... Dad may feel his daughter is at risk of much worse if she is seen as tool to manipulate him because he loves her. (probably the most common way to manipulate the "good scientist" in fiction is to get leverage with his closest family member... it does not work if he doesn't seem to love that family member) Dad may from homework know - Annie will not turn over Rey, and that something will happen to prevent his actions from harming daughter too much while still making himself appear to be villain. |
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 7, 2015 21:39:17 GMT
In real life chemotherapy does do nasty stuff to some people for short period of time, including emotionally. Whenever you make a metaphor, I die a little inside. Especially if it has the word BDSM in it. Interesting to watch the hypocrisy... we have so many in audience with all sorts of hateful wishes for dad such as extreme torture. No sense of innocent till proven guilty, when obvious there could be reasons... Dad is evil for his coldness to daughter (no physical violence, he technically as parent is justified in punishment, grounding, etc when she cheats to pass school grades), but ok to wish all sorts of physical violence and worse on him.Says the guy too crazy even for Coyote... But speaking seriously, the major difference is that most of us mean it facetiously, while for Annie, this is terrifyingly real, with real consequences. And we know he's just a character in a webcomic, but Annie doesn't (obviously) - if a character in the comic said he planned to kill/grievously harm Anthony, that would be wrong. |
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Post by davidm on Apr 7, 2015 21:41:37 GMT
Interesting to watch the hypocrisy... we have so many in audience with all sorts of hateful wishes for dad such as extreme torture. No sense of innocent till proven guilty, when obvious there could be reasons... Dad is evil for his coldness to daughter (no physical violence, he technically as parent is justified in punishment, grounding, etc when she cheats to pass school grades), but ok to wish all sorts of physical violence and worse on him.Says the guy too crazy even for Coyote... But speaking seriously, the major difference is that most of us mean it facetiously, while for Annie, this is terrifyingly real, with real consequences. And we know he's just a character in a webcomic, but Annie doesn't (obviously) - if a character in the comic said he planned to kill/grievously harm Anthony, that would be wrong. So since I know Annie is just a character it would be ok to wish that Dad beat her bruised all over and bloody for cheating on her homework? On main comic page 800 comments... was very large number suggesting stuff of equivalent morality to beating Annie bloody, just to Dad rather than Annie.... when we don't even know *why* he is acting this way. We have had lots of hints that things may not be as they appear. |
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Post by machival on Apr 7, 2015 21:51:30 GMT
Says the guy too crazy even for Coyote... But speaking seriously, the major difference is that most of us mean it facetiously, while for Annie, this is terrifyingly real, with real consequences. And we know he's just a character in a webcomic, but Annie doesn't (obviously) - if a character in the comic said he planned to kill/grievously harm Anthony, that would be wrong. So since I know Annie is just a character it would be ok to wish that Dad beat her bruised all over and bloody for cheating on her homework? On main comic page 800 comments... was very large number suggesting stuff of equivalent morality to beating Annie bloody, just to Dad rather than Annie.... when we don't even know *why* he is acting this way. We have had lots of hints that things may not be as they appear. Sure wish whatever you want on antimony. Hell, go write a fan-fic depicting Anthony torturing Antimony for 400 pages. It doesn't matter so long as you aren't beating any actual children bloody. |
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Post by fuzzyone on Apr 7, 2015 21:51:51 GMT
...by all appearances the "flame within her" is antimony's very soul. If Anthony was seriously attempting to rid Annie of it, then he was attempting to put her into the same state Surma was in on the day of her death. I have some doubt about this. It seems to me that the flame nature cannot be all that Surma was/all that constituted her "soul," or there would have been nothing left of her for Antimony to take into the Ether. And after all, the original flame ancestor seems to be enough generations back that from a family-tree standpoint they are mostly human, though the (imaginary, of course) physics/metaphysics of the situation may of course be complex. Anyway, removing the flame might indeed kill Antimony, but then again... I don't know how to find it, exactly, but Tom was once questioned about the fact that none of the Psychopomps came for Surma. This was after the " There was nothing left to take" statement in Fire Spike. The question was to the effect of, "If there was nothing left to take, what did Annie guide into the Ether?" Tom's response, Something to the effect of"Everything else." The loss of that flame killed Surma. Everything we've been told says this. Attempting to "Surgically" remove this portion of Annie, if indeed that was the case, is dangerous. It's Risky. It's untested, so far as we know. For that reason alone, I'd even go so far as to say it's damned stupid. What sort of things has Anthony been doing to suggest to him that he was prepared to isolate and excise a portion of Annie's etheric soul? What sort of experiments has he been performing? It's a chilling thought. I won't weigh in on the abuse issue. I don't feel qualified. I will say that Anthony couldn't be presenting himself any worse if he'd decided to open up this , for lack of a better word, conversation with a slap to Annie's face. This looks less like "punishing a problem" than "Systematically removing everything Antimony loves except for me." This is a dangerous game. I don't think I've ever seen another Author do something like this. I can't imagine what it would be like reading all of these past few pages at once. Body-blow after body-blow,rather than gut punch, then 2-3 days of reeling... Edited to add: Also, remember what hearing from her father did to Annie the first time we saw it. Her reaction to displaying even A FRACTION of what she was feeling inside. When Donald Donaln saw how she was clenching her hand, What was her internal beratement? " How did that happen? You idiot. He must think you're so stupid." I wonder where equating a display of emotion with stupidity came from... |
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guyy
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Post by guyy on Apr 7, 2015 21:56:24 GMT
I can't belive I'm about to do this... and I hate it. Anthony isn't acting evil if you look at this from a neutral view. I can see your point, but only if I take "neutral" to mean "literally doesn't know the first thing about Annie, and wants to get rid of every aspect of her life that he doesn't understand." Horrible parents often aren't intentionally malicious; they just don't understand their kids in the slightest, yet still demand total control over their lives, ostensibly for their own good. And so they end up being evil by mistake. That might be the situation we have here. On the other hand, I'm thinking of that flashback to the hospital, with Anthony glaring at Annie, and her mother says "He still loves you very much." Still? How does he feel now that Surma's long gone? He abandons his daughter for years, and the first thing he does upon returning unannounced is to punish her in every way he thinks he can get away with? This doesn't seem like a person who wants to make amends for anything. He just wants control, regardless of the consequences. |
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