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Post by Daedalus on Apr 7, 2015 21:56:54 GMT
On main comic page 800 comments... was very large number suggesting stuff of equivalent morality to beating Annie bloody, just to Dad rather than Annie.... when we don't even know *why* he is acting this way. We have had lots of hints that things may not be as they appear. We on the forum are not responsible for their posts. Don't shout hypocrisy at us if we never said it in the first place. And all of the posts here wishing great bodily harm upon him have been recanted or weren't intended to be taken seriously in the first place (similar to how you justified your song urging Jeanne to kill Annie as not being indicative of your actual personality). Want to move to a private message? If you think your daughter referring to you as "mom" would put her life in danger, you may do the same. Also, this is from a while ago, but I'm male. |
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 7, 2015 22:01:14 GMT
Yes, and that is common element/failing of heroes in fiction. In real life chemotherapy does do nasty stuff to some people for short period of time, including emotionally. In this situation we have too little evidence to judge... Dad may feel his daughter is at risk of much worse if she is seen as tool to manipulate him because he loves her. (probably the most common way to manipulate the "good scientist" in fiction is to get leverage with his closest family member... it does not work if he doesn't seem to love that family member) Dad may from homework know - Annie will not turn over Rey, and that something will happen to prevent his actions from harming daughter too much while still making himself appear to be villain. 1. Yes, but isn't chemotherapy something that the patient chooses to undergo? In contrast, Tony doesn't leave Annie contact info to reach him in case she needs emotional support, nor does he consider asking any of his friends to look out for her in that fashion. Simply put, she's sent to a place without immediate options for companionship/emotional support. 2. Do we have enough evidence to judge him as being in the right or at least entirely? I mean at first glance it seems like giving one some benefit of the doubt is harmless, but as I pointed out several times without a rebuttal, some abusive parents are never caught and identified, simply because they manage to hide the facts that make them easy to identify as abusive. But even if being distant from her and sacrificing any chance of being the loving father was necessary, I ask why he couldn't approach Donald and Anja in the first place to provide the love he couldn't give? 3A. If you're suggesting that he has a possible enemy, some people tend to be genre savy enough to recognize things like "Ahh, the old act cold and distant to protect your loved ones.". 3B. Even if this is part of a plan to protect her, that doesn't mean that he should be let completely off the hook. No, I don't mean physical harm or Annie hating him. I just mean that any reconciliation between them should be implied not to be easy and simple. |
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Post by davidm on Apr 7, 2015 22:04:22 GMT
Court leadership:
1) Wanted someone else as mediator with forest
2) probably wants control of Rey
this could be partially a ruse to appear to be "helping the court leadership", while doing so in way that Annie is sure to refuse. Annie might actually obey dad if dad seems to care.
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Post by davidm on Apr 7, 2015 22:09:41 GMT
So since I know Annie is just a character it would be ok to wish that Dad beat her bruised all over and bloody for cheating on her homework? On main comic page 800 comments... was very large number suggesting stuff of equivalent morality to beating Annie bloody, just to Dad rather than Annie.... when we don't even know *why* he is acting this way. We have had lots of hints that things may not be as they appear. Sure wish whatever you want on antimony. Hell, go write a fan-fic depicting Anthony torturing Antimony for 400 pages. It doesn't matter so long as you aren't beating any actual children bloody. LAUGHING ON LINE, we already had the extreme emotional "we are condoning violence against women and I was a victim of abusive husband" reaction from a few of observers when I said to a forest creature that physical roughness with other forest creatures is normal and gave examples from story and in real life... pages of posts making all sorts of false assumptions that this somehow meant real life beat up other people. |
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 7, 2015 22:10:46 GMT
Court leadership: 1) Wanted someone else as mediator with forest 2) probably wants control of Rey this could be partially a ruse to appear to be "helping the court leadership", while doing so in way that Annie is sure to refuse. Annie might actually obey dad if dad seems to care. Huh? I think you're responding to me with the numbered points and all, but I'm not sure that has much to do with my comments. |
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Post by davidm on Apr 7, 2015 22:14:10 GMT
Don't shout hypocrisy at us if we never said it in the first place. I said that people who advocated violence to dad were being hypocritical, you are applying that to people who you say did not. I take comments on web page and comments in forum as from similar audience. It did not appear to be a roleplay. (When I did a roleplay I tried to make it obvious, and then checked in after to make sure people got it, and tried to fit in with level of violence actual characters of story do, eg Jeanne ghost did do a lot of killing of others who tried to help her and from a certain perspective Annie would seem "evil" to a Jeannie fanclub) I did not read all comments just sampled 20+ from various sources. |
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 7, 2015 22:22:02 GMT
Don't shout hypocrisy at us if we never said it in the first place. I said that people who advocated violence to dad were being hypocritical, you are applying that to people who you say did not. I take comments on web page and comments in forum as from similar audience. It did not appear to be a roleplay. I did not read all comments just sampled 20+ from various sources. I apologize if I overreacted, but when you come to a forum and talk about how you see hypocrisy everywhere in the discussion of this page, without mentioning who you're feeling is hypocritical, the natural assumption is that you're referring to the discussion here, where you posted the comment. |
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Post by davidm on Apr 7, 2015 22:25:52 GMT
I said that people who advocated violence to dad were being hypocritical, you are applying that to people who you say did not. I take comments on web page and comments in forum as from similar audience. It did not appear to be a roleplay. I did not read all comments just sampled 20+ from various sources. I apologize if I overreacted, but when you come to a forum and talk about how you see hypocrisy everywhere in the discussion of this page, without mentioning who you're feeling is hypocritical, the natural assumption is that you're referring to the discussion here, where you posted the comment. My feelings are not hurt, if it somehow helps I "accept apology", though not sure apology is needed. My actual words "Interesting to watch the hypocrisy... we have so many in audience with all sorts of hateful wishes for dad such as extreme torture." - audience means those who commented in either place, counted lots of them, seemed like #1 sort of comment when I quickly read through 20+ posts. Obviously other people reading many posts quickly (including mine) can come to different conclusion as to my meaning. |
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Post by ctso74 on Apr 7, 2015 23:08:54 GMT
However, Tony has not requested the "plushie", but Rey. One way to perform the transfer would be that Annie commanded Rey to take control of a doll with Anthony's symbol on it. Wonder what that would be... imaginaryfriend proposed one possibility.  Interesting approach... because that would constitute giving Rey permission to leave the wolf doll, which would remain Annie's property... and since Rey would then be between the two dolls, and not possessing anyone's property, he would not be bound to obey instructions. He'd be free. Of course, he'd then need another body. Perhaps Annie could have grabbed an action figure or something and held it up to Rey saying "I give this to you; it is your property and yours only." Then Rey could move into it and walk away. Anything with eyes. It's a pity Tony doesn't have a camera in his prosthetic. We could see the hilarious hijinks of Carver's Out-of-Control hand. We could see Tony going through the ordeal completely straight faced. "Oh, bother." "Stop that, this instant." "I'm sorry miss. I have no control over my appendage." "Oh dear, not Jones." "Oh dear, not Eglamore." Add a few nods to Evil Dead II, and the rest of the chapter writes itself. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 23:21:27 GMT
We could see the hilarious hijinks of Carver's Out-of-Control hand. That sure is one way to make me think of Dr. Strangelove. Edit: Why do I find it so amusing to cast Anthony as Dr. Strangelove? "My Führer. I seem to be able to walk perambulate again." (Dead monotone. Roll credits.) |
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Post by machival on Apr 7, 2015 23:23:39 GMT
Interesting approach... because that would constitute giving Rey permission to leave the wolf doll, which would remain Annie's property... and since Rey would then be between the two dolls, and not possessing anyone's property, he would not be bound to obey instructions. He'd be free. Of course, he'd then need another body. Perhaps Annie could have grabbed an action figure or something and held it up to Rey saying "I give this to you; it is your property and yours only." Then Rey could move into it and walk away. Anything with eyes. It's a pity Tony doesn't have a camera in his prosthetic. We could see the hilarious hijinks of Carver's Out-of-Control hand. We could see Tony going through the ordeal completely straight faced. [snip] "Oh dear, not Eglamore." Sooo... Eglamore/Anthony Slash fic anyone? |
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Post by keef on Apr 7, 2015 23:27:29 GMT
I have some doubt about this. It seems to me that the flame nature cannot be all that Surma was/all that constituted her "soul," or there would have been nothing left of her for Antimony to take into the Ether. And after all, the original flame ancestor seems to be enough generations back that from a family-tree standpoint they are mostly human, though the (imaginary, of course) physics/metaphysics of the situation may of course be complex. Anyway, removing the flame might indeed kill Antimony, but then again...  I don't know how to find it, exactly,  HereMaybe these "hybrids" are born without "soul". There is only the fire-elemental. So naturally if this is removed Annie is dead, and there will be no one to take her, not even a child. I more or less hope Annie's fire-elemental side will one day start talking to her, like some kind of hivemind.Thank you.Excellent description |
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Post by Chancellor on Apr 7, 2015 23:37:57 GMT
I apologize if I overreacted, but when you come to a forum and talk about how you see hypocrisy everywhere in the discussion of this page, without mentioning who you're feeling is hypocritical, the natural assumption is that you're referring to the discussion here, where you posted the comment. My feelings are not hurt, if it somehow helps I "accept apology", though not sure apology is needed. My actual words "Interesting to watch the hypocrisy... we have so many in audience with all sorts of hateful wishes for dad such as extreme torture." - audience means those who commented in either place, counted lots of them, seemed like #1 sort of comment when I quickly read through 20+ posts. Obviously other people reading many posts quickly (including mine) can come to different conclusion as to my meaning. Apart from the difficulty in ascertaining the difference between exaggerated, hyperbolic anger that neither represents true feelings of the degree stated nor any actual theoretical intent to cause or condone such harm from actual feelings and intent, I'm just not getting what you're saying here. These past few pages have clearly been designed to inspire negative emotions, I can't interpret them any other reasonable way. And yes as much as you continually rant about not giving Anthony enough time to excuse his dickery in the present, myself and a number of others have gleaned considerable evidence and cause from the past to supplement our negative condemnation now. Where is the hypocrisy? What is the stance or action being taken that is engaging a double standard? Is it that we have not or do not hurl such vehement sentiments at other persons in the story of questionable morality? An assertion I would refute considering that no other character to whom we can remotely attribute villainous qualities has acted in the ways that make us despise Anthony. Is it that we're utterly vilifying Anthony and placing Annie on a pedestal of absolute innocence? Again I refute the notion, in that there are no significant number of persons here who do not admit the problems of Annie's cheating, and that a considerable, vocal portion have accepted that if nothing else, Anthony's proactive steps against said cheating are necessary, but that alone, combined with the extreme methods he is using, does not exonerate him of the rest. I do not understand. |
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Post by Sadie on Apr 8, 2015 0:12:01 GMT
While Anthonys actions can be considered correct according to the information he has, what about Antimonys perspective on things? Why not ask her about that stuff he's concerned with? A chance to defend herself, to ask about her circumstances? Roughly speaking, that's pretty much what I'm asking the forum to do in regards to Anthony. This is what I mean by a double standard: Annie's been caught out at something most schools would expel you for, on the spot. "OK, yeah, that was not good, but, you know, she means well, and we like her, and she's done good things, so, yeah, let's not actually punish her or make her unhappy, let's just try to understand what her problem is, have some tea, it'll be fine, I'm sure." Her Father is taking actions, not only to punish, or as I keep saying, get her attention; but to isolate her from possible bad influences until he can sort things out. But people aren't just criticizing his manner, they're calling him a child abuser and demanding he die a horrible death. They're even criticizing Tom for making Annie, and her fans, unhappy. And the scene isn't even over yet. I appreciate where you're coming from with wanting people to give Anthony the benefit of the doubt. Frankly, anyone criticizing Tom for putting his main character through the emotional ringer needs to get over themselves. This is what stories are for. The only thing is that a number of users have explained why they find his tactics abusive, and you've dismissed them on the justification of "any school would expel her on the spot" and "she needs to be held accountable". You're also equating peoples' desire to see Anthony exercise some empathy toward his daughter with them saying she ought to be shielded from all repercussions. I mentioned in another thread that I've got sympathy for Anthony and that I can imagine all the ways he's justified to himself that this is in Annie's best interests, and that's still true. But I am uncomfortable with the presentation of his actions as completely reasonable, logical, and appropriate to the situation. Appropriate and reasonable responses don't involve public humiliation. This may not be something we'll ever see eye to eye on. I can accept her receiving punishment-based repercussions -- detentions, extra work, restricted free time, restricted Forest access, banned from school field trips... even being held back, though I personally don't think it's a good or effective strategy for actual rehabilitation. But singling her out from the whole class? Calling her make-up ridiculous? Dismissing her very important job as "nonsense with the Forest" like it's some pointless child's game? Making her move into her own isolated room? (Dude, switch her with someone else in the year 10 dorms, easy-peasy.) Taking Rey from her immediately on top of degrading her, dissing her job, threatening and warning off the friend that was offering her emotional support? This is all manipulation. Moreover, if Annie genuinely respected her father, none of it should have been necessary. Either 1) he has extreme doubts over her willingness to listen to him, 2) this is just how he his normally with everything, in which case ouch, or 3) he needs to keep her off-balance and in compliance. |
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Post by todd on Apr 8, 2015 0:37:28 GMT
This is my favorite comment from the comments for this page, so I thought I'd post it here (and I hope the poster - who goes by the name of jf - doesn't mind) to preserve it:
"Sorry, but I've got to call it now. We have three options right now; 1) This entire story is simply some form of dream. 2) This story goes on to affect the entire status quo of the comic. 3) This story goes ahead, but some event a little later on resets the status quo back to normal. All three of these options (unless Tom pulls something really special off with #2) are probably going to signal a decline in the comic's writing. Option 1) is tired gimmick. Option 2) seems extremely risky, as it removes almost everything in the comic that we're used to. Option 3) is similar to 1) in terms of it's cop-out level; it would mostly reduce this chapter to filler. Either way, unless Tom has something really spectacular he's about to pull off here, I honestly can't see this chapter ending in a way that works properly. "
That's concerned me as I read more of this chapter. Tom's written some effective drama here - but I wonder how these developments will affect the long-term future of the comic. At present, two-thirds of the main cast are all but being written out of the comic (Annie's clearly going to be spending all her days from now on studying under her father's supervision - presumably with no time allowed for anything else - and I suspect that Antony will be having Reynardine locked up again). Kat can perhaps continue on her own (maybe with Paz promoted to a full-scale major character), but with this many big changes at once....
Tom's shown himself to be a good writer. I'm sure he knows what he's doing, and since his schedule gives him three chapters in reserve, he'd have certainly found out by the time he'd started posting these pages if he'd written himself into a corner. But I think that jf has raised a good point, that's gone all but unnoticed amid the heated Antony debate.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 8, 2015 0:55:04 GMT
...I am uncomfortable with the presentation of his actions as completely reasonable, logical, and appropriate to the situation... Moreover, if Annie genuinely respected her father, none of it should have been necessary. Either 1) he has extreme doubts over her willingness to listen to him, 2) this is just how he his normally with everything, in which case ouch, or 3) he needs to keep her off-balance and in compliance. Most people who have trouble relating to others In My Humble Opinion just assume that everyone else thinks like they do and want (or should want) what they want. It's better than nothing, I guess. Anthony would prefer to be left alone, he assumes Antimony would prefer to be left alone. (more on this below) I know it's a Very Bad Idea to wade into such a vitriolic debate, but I shall do so regardless. - Anthony is a careful and meticulous man. He almost certainly has sources in the Court - either the TicTocs, as have been speculated, or he could call and chat with his old schoolmates. Any of them could have told him that Rey was no threat to Annie's life. (For example if he called Donny, for example, Donny would talk to Eggers, who would attest to Rey's good character.)
- He does not have the authority to blockade the Forest Medium from doing her job in the Forest. He would know that, and he probably knows he'll cause a major diplomatic incident. For him to be willing to do so, considering his uber-rationalist viewpoint, he must have some reason beyond "The Forest is bad for my daughter".
- About the makeup, it's not within his rights to do it so abruptly and flagrantly. While saying "please take off your makeup, Ms. Carver, it's not allowed in my class" would be within his rights, calling it "ridiculous" publicly in a way calculated to cause maximum humiliation is NOT. That's cruelty, and possibly emotional abuse.
- Kat is a clear positive influence on Annie. Tony had Donnie as a friend, he knows that friends can help deal with difficult times (like his romantic misadventures with Brinnie). He knows Kat is smart. If his interests were really to help Annie academically, as has been alleged, he should encourage her to be tutored by Kat (as long as they were to put into place a new system to prevent cheating, of course).
- Forcing her to move out of her dorm is unnecessary; removing his daughter's social network is cruel. It makes no sense from the perspective of the remote but caring father you postulate.
- But even if all of these actions were justified in context, there is no reason to make such draconian actions without talking to Annie privately first! Anthony has her attention instantly by entering the room; she obviously respects his opinion; there's a good chance he'd be successful in getting her to change her ways if that was actually what he cared about.
Tony is logical and intelligent. None of these actions make sense without a hidden agenda. And if this agenda isn't towards Annie's benefit (and that seems likely currently), he's morally reprehensible for sacrificing his daughter's happiness as part of that bargain. The only agenda that possibly fits right now is a concerted effort to cut his daughter off from all positive aspects of her life that she's developed in the last three years at GKC. Otherwise, it's just too coincidental that his plan requires exactly the worst things he can take from Annie. There may be another reason Tom reveals later. There probably will be; Tom never makes 2D characters. But I very much doubt it will be sufficient to justify what he's done here. I'm all in favor of waiting and seeing, but I hope we can all agree that Tony's actions are very cruel here? In real life, one must judge people off what is known currently, once that evidence is large. And one could classify the current evidence against Tony as damning. Again, there will be justification some day, but the theory about Tony as a benevolent, distant father has many holes in it. Like I said in my previous post, it may be that Mr. Carver has been misinformed by whoever he's been talking to within the Court about the value or nature of his daughter's mediumship and time spent in the forest. Maybe it would be better to say that he may have been getting his information from a source with a bias or even an ax to grind about how Antimony disrespects the Court in the opinion of some members of the Court. However, the reason this was/could be possible is because of his long-term absence from her life. The length of time he's spent going over her scores and work from the previous term demonstrate to me that at least some of this was voluntary. People are allowed to have likes and dislikes. Maybe Anthony dislikes things etheric for aesthetic reasons (though it's probably about control) but his daughter is part fire elemental. Who knows, perhaps he and Surma thought that if Antimony never learned to use her fire then it would be easier to "cure" her. Either way, she's been using it for a while so that issue is moot. Things etheric are very important if not vital to Antimony and as a father I would argue that part of his responsibility as same is to develop some knowledge of these things from the point of view of a user of etheric abilities. Did he do that when Surma was alive? Has he been doing that somewhere else after she died? Remains to be seen, but All Signs Point to No. Assuming he was behind the whole Antimony coma thing he may be still experimenting with the fire but that is not the same thing. Yes, he may not like the etheric and it is now painful because it reminds him of Surma but it is the responsible thing to do. Maybe he could have made a "Coyote" bop-n-bag to relieve his stress the same way thousands of parents have gone to newgrounds to slaughter teletubbies; I genuinely believe I know someone that would be in for five large if he found out there was going to be a contract on the Wiggles. I'll disagree with Daedalus about the possibility of Anthony sitting down with Eglamore and discussing the character of Renard, though I'd like to be a fly on the wall of that meeting if it was attempted, but he is correct in that Anthony could meticulously look into his daughter's life and friends but has, to our knowledge, not. And then there is that whole apparent lack of approval and affection thing. Either of those two can mess someone up for life without any of the other stuff, but returning only when she needs to be corrected? Yikes. Most likely Anthony thinks that his daughter thinks/feels like he does and appreciates being left (alone) to her own devices, but perhaps he has been leaving coded messages of love hidden for her in various places all this while that she just missed and there will be a big reveal someday in the comic (but not bloody likely). Assuming that Anthony believes that Antimony is emotionally similar to him, the reason that he would think that is because he hasn't gotten to know his daughter. Please note my repeated use of the words "maybe" "assuming" and "apparent" in the construction of this line of thought, but the ignorance that is causing Antimony's distress is part of a recurring theme of people injuring people unintentionally in the comic. Know further, genteel forum-goers, I am hawkishly looking for subtle evidence in future comics that he is either emotionless and with full knowledge doing this stuff, or doing it sadistically, or even willfully turning a blind eye to the harm that he is doing, because that would transform a clearly crappy dad into an emotionally-abusive dad in my estimation. |
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Post by Per on Apr 8, 2015 1:47:31 GMT
2) This story goes on to affect the entire status quo of the comic. 3) This story goes ahead, but some event a little later on resets the status quo back to normalI don't think this applies as phrased because GC is not a story structured around "status quo". It's not a matter of "things go on as always" versus "huge change bluh bluh" but "things develop bit by bit" versus "things get shaken up for real". Personally I like the "slice of life" type chapters (carriage rides and haircuts are the best), but there's always a faction urging Tom to "get on with it". since his schedule gives him three chapters in reserve Three months, I think, not three chapters. The Torn Sea went on for six months, for instance. |
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Post by AnUpliftedCuttlefish on Apr 8, 2015 2:00:35 GMT
I can't belive I'm about to do this... and I hate it. Anthony isn't acting evil if you look at this from a neutral view. His daughter was caught cheating. She could be expelled for that, what he did was fair, even if it sucked. He also hasn't once asked her why. Making her repeat might indeed be the only option, but he's shown no interest in whether being made repeat is actually going to fix the issue (though I guess that might be of a neutral alignment, with actual interest in his daughter's well being of a good alignment). He insulted it, despite him having to be aware it probably had a deep emotional importance to Antimony, as it's the same makeup her mother - his wife - wore. It was also pretty much the first thing he said to her in person after not seeing he for at least 2 years. Plus he's a teacher, and that carries a certain expectation of professionalism. If he wanted her to remove the makeup there are ways he could have done it that didn't involve insulting her, or singling her out. Which would have been better as a teacher, and kinder as a father. Which to me falls under the "good intentions can still be bad intentions". If that's what Anthony is thinking, he needs help. It'd be no less monstrous if his plan was to sterilize her. Technically they're the court's bots, and we don't know how much the court (or Anthony) knows about their connection to Kat. The one large scale bot incident everyone might be aware of is the one involving the ship - where Antimony helped save the day, and was in no way responsible for (unless we're blaming her for building robot in the first place). But yes, this is actually one that could be spun as being good educationally, if slightly overreacting, as it could protect Antimony from the temptation to cheat again. Still doesn't change the fact Kat is Antimony's single close human friend. Limiting her still leads to increased isolation for Antimony. So this one is Anthony being political, and doesn't actually concern Antimony's well being? But it could also be spun as an overprotective parent thing that's not inherently bad - any forest is dangerous. Course Antimony does have friends there she wont get to see anymore. Surma's father? Kat's father? Parley and Smitty's father? Jack's father? Every medium's father? The father of every child that's been educated at the court since its founding? Not all to the degree of Antimony, but many have interacted with those things, or lived just a stones throw from them. Also is she still running amok? And many of those things - like Zimmy - aren't the results of her being rebellious. In fact she's helped Zimmy, and helped her with other rebellious elements in the court - like Jack and robots. Except she's not living with him anymore, and Anthony's friends don't seem to have a problem with children being around Rey* - the Donlans' own daughter is good friends with Rey, and lived with him for nearly as long as Antimony. So - yes, a person might think that. But it is a bad thing to think without good reason, which Anthony doesn't have. *Nor, for that matter, does the Court. He's free to roam with only passive observation at best. He's lived amongst the students for the better part of Antimony's time at GC. Anthony's justification is weak if he's playing the "he's dangerous!" card, after so long. If he was legitimately worried Rey was seducing his daughter, shouldn't he have popped back to the court far sooner? He may have no choice, but he does have options. Talking to her, for one. So good intentions, but bad execution. The intentions don't excuse the execution, necessarily. And yes - looking at something from the view of the one doing it, means it probably wont seem misguided or wrong, because people often justify things to themselves. I'm sure if we looked at Antimony's cheating from her point of view it wouldn't have necessarily seemed wrong or misguided to her either.* *At certain points. I think deep down she's always known it was wrong, but if one does something wrong for so long you've probably convinced yourself it's ok somehow. It's all kind of damning with faint praise. I don't want to kill him, but I can find a lot of fault with his actions, though we still don't know his actual intentions |
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Post by warrl on Apr 8, 2015 2:04:44 GMT
Jones, Reynardine, and Eglamore have all, in their way, tried to warn Annie that she was going off track, and that the Court was not happy. She's even promised one or two of them to straighten up. As far as I can recall, the only one who ever said anything specifically about cheating - was Reynardine. Who is not an authority figure to Annie. Sure, she was given stacks of detentions, but no consequences for skipping them - and we don't know much regarding what they were about. Only the first authority figure to get specific. |
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Post by AnUpliftedCuttlefish on Apr 8, 2015 2:16:41 GMT
Roughly speaking, that's pretty much what I'm asking the forum to do in regards to Anthony. This is what I mean by a double standard: Annie's been caught out at something most schools would expel you for, on the spot. "OK, yeah, that was not good, but, you know, she means well, and we like her, and she's done good things, so, yeah, let's not actually punish her or make her unhappy, let's just try to understand what her problem is, have some tea, it'll be fine, I'm sure." Her Father is taking actions, not only to punish, or as I keep saying, get her attention; but to isolate her from possible bad influences until he can sort things out. But people aren't just criticizing his manner, they're calling him a child abuser and demanding he die a horrible death. They're even criticizing Tom for making Annie, and her fans, unhappy. And the scene isn't even over yet. I appreciate where you're coming from with wanting people to give Anthony the benefit of the doubt. Frankly, anyone criticizing Tom for putting his main character through the emotional ringer needs to get over themselves. This is what stories are for. I never get people who do that, and I've sometimes worried when I comment on something an author might think that's I'm doing, because so many seem to. Be it GoT or Gunnerkrigg Court or whatever - that I can criticize a character doesn't mean I'm criticizing the character, writing or story (unless the basis I'm criticizing the character on is being badly written, and then I try and be constructive). Anthony's definitely not badly written, the reason he inspires a desire to talk about him, about his actions, is because he's a good character (if not necessary a character who is "good"). Villains, anti-villains, mysterious maybe antagonists, complex characters who defy such pigeon holes etc - we can love them, we can hate them, we can love to hate them, or hate to love them, but they usually contribute to what makes us love a story. I salute Tom for writing something that makes me care for the characters so much that I'm inspired to question and analyze a new arrival who's causing pain in a character I care about. |
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Post by AnUpliftedCuttlefish on Apr 8, 2015 2:23:17 GMT
And I'd say finally - that just shows the poor execution of this on Anthony's part*. If he thinks her friends are possible bad influences he clearly knows nothing about them, (or Antimony, for that matter) and isolating her from them achieves nothing but pain. Doing something like actually speaking to Antimony first would be a much better place to start fixing this.. First you get her attention, which has proven remarkably difficult to do. Anthony has tried to get her attention previously? "You've got to help us doc, we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!" Every panel of this chapter has shown Antimony is prepared to hang on her fathers words, prepared to take everything he throws at her - no matter how unreasonable. This isn't the attitude of a girl who it's impossible to get the attention of. Beside which - Jones and Eglamore have both previously talked to her about her attitude - which has improved, in terms of not rebelling for the sake of rebelling. Jones has had success, without crushing Antimony's spirit. Nearly getting eaten by a terrifying amalgamation of wolf and tree also helped. The make up thing sticks in my mind, and what possible reason would excuse it. It also isn't part of her issue - but he went after it anyway. She doesn't need to be isolated and observed initially to figure out the problem - speaking to her could potentially have provided all the answers he needed. Then, if that fails one can work up to things like isolation. Because I think the question can be asked - what problem is it, exactly, that Anthony needs to get to the source of? I don't think he's evil, or the evilest evil (I mean he hasn't kicked Paz's puppy yet), but I think it'll need a pretty impressive justification to excuse how he's behaved in regards to Antimony since returning. And that's including most every scenario I can think of, or have seen proposed* *Unless it's one of the ones that includes something like "Antimony would be in danger if someone/something saw Anthony being nice to her". But why someone/something would let him back in her life, but not allow him to support her emotionally/mentally would be curious. Heh, that's ok, I had a feeling that's what you may have been getting at. |
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 8, 2015 3:00:58 GMT
I don't think he's evil, or the evilest evil (I mean he hasn't kicked Paz's puppy yet), but I think it'll need a pretty impressive justification to excuses how he's behaved in regards to Antimony since returning. And that's including most every scenario I can think of, or have seen proposed* *Unless it's one of the ones that includes something like " Antimony would be in danger is someone/something saw Anthony being nice to her". But why someone/something would let him back in her life, but not allow him to support her emotionally/mentally would be curious. And even then I'd argue that the makeup thing was still pointless, because teachers are expected to behave in a civilized fashion towards their students anyway. |
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Post by AnUpliftedCuttlefish on Apr 8, 2015 3:30:36 GMT
Short hair might be ok (if she wants short hair - against her will is terrible) - I think Antimony would rock it just as well as Kat. I'm actually still waiting to see if a Dramatic Haircut™ on Annie's part will occur in the story or not. Surma had short hair once, Annie might feel like "drastically" changing her own image at some point as well. That's a good point. I actually wouldn't mind seeing a short hair cut on Antimony since, well, I like short hair styles on girls (and long ones - cool style is cool style), and it's always fun/interesting when characters experiment with their style and expression. We could see the hilarious hijinks of Carver's Out-of-Control hand. That sure is one way to make me think of Dr. Strangelove. Edit: Why do I find it so amusing to cast Anthony as Dr. Strangelove? "My Führer. I seem to be able to walk perambulate again." (Dead monotone. Roll credits.) Heheh, now I'm imagining it, and I am amused. And so Gunnerkrigg Court relocates to a mineshaft. |
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Post by Chancellor on Apr 8, 2015 3:42:10 GMT
I'm actually still waiting to see if a Dramatic Haircut™ on Annie's part will occur in the story or not. Surma had short hair once, Annie might feel like "drastically" changing her own image at some point as well. That's a good point. I actually wouldn't mind seeing a short hair cut on Antimony since, well, I like a lot of short hair cuts on girls, and it's always fun/interesting when characters experiment with styles and expression. That sure is one way to make me think of Dr. Strangelove. Edit: Why do I find it so amusing to cast Anthony as Dr. Strangelove? "My Führer. I seem to be able to walk perambulate again." (Dead monotone. Roll credits.) Heheh, now I'm imagining it, and I am amused. And so Gunnerkrigg Court relocates to a mineshaft. Mr. Headmaster, we must not allow a Mineshaft gap with the Forest! |
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Post by scalesandfins on Apr 8, 2015 4:20:47 GMT
OK, before the next update which I am already stressing out over because I'm sure it's going to be just as emotionally devastating as the last week's: "The Tree" is the Empire Strikes Back chapter of GC. It's the first time the comic's A plot has really kicked off since "Fire Spike"; we've been waiting for Anthony to show up since Annie's first year, and he's come bringing the big storytelling guns with him. This is just the beginning, and what happens next is going to be brutal. I'm calling that the Court brokered a deal with Anthony: he would be given legal custody and total control over Annie, and facilities with which to perform the etheric lobotomy on her that he was attempting in "Divine", in exchange for the demon Renard. The way Annie's various friends and allies rally to save her and fight the structures and politics of the Court/forest is going to be the next big plot arc, but I fully expect this chapter to end with Annie in solitary lockup and Rey in some version of Han Solo's block of carbonite.
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Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 8, 2015 4:28:49 GMT
I was beginning to wonder if this book was going to be a "Goblet of Fire" moment for the comic; the various storms that have been brewing in the background begin to come to the fore and the main conflict begins to take shape, darkening the tone with it.
At any rate I think we'll really see what Annie and possibly a few other characters are made of in this book. |
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Post by matoyak on Apr 8, 2015 6:01:58 GMT
The only thing is that a number of users have explained why they find his tactics abusive, and you've dismissed them on the justification of "any school would expel her on the spot" and "she needs to be held accountable". You're also equating peoples' desire to see Anthony exercise some empathy toward his daughter with them saying she ought to be shielded from all repercussions. This is also where I find fault in your points, Refugee. Appropriate and reasonable responses don't involve public humiliation. This may not be something we'll ever see eye to eye on. I can accept her receiving punishment-based repercussions -- detentions, extra work, restricted free time, restricted Forest access, banned from school field trips... even being held back, though I personally don't think it's a good or effective strategy for actual rehabilitation. But singling her out from the whole class? Calling her make-up ridiculous? Dismissing her very important job as "nonsense with the Forest" like it's some pointless child's game? Making her move into her own isolated room? (Dude, switch her with someone else in the year 10 dorms, easy-peasy.) Taking Rey from her immediately on top of degrading her, dissing her job, threatening and warning off the friend that was offering her emotional support? This is all manipulation. I liked this a lot. Sorry, but I've got to call it now. We have three options right now; 1) This entire story is simply some form of dream. 2) This story goes on to affect the entire status quo of the comic. 3) This story goes ahead, but some event a little later on resets the status quo back to normal. All three of these options (unless Tom pulls something really special off with #2) are probably going to signal a decline in the comic's writing. Option 1) is tired gimmick. Option 2) seems extremely risky, as it removes almost everything in the comic that we're used to. Option 3) is similar to 1) in terms of it's cop-out level; it would mostly reduce this chapter to filler. Either way, unless Tom has something really spectacular he's about to pull off here, I honestly can't see this chapter ending in a way that works properly. That's concerned me as I read more of this chapter. Tom's written some effective drama here - but I wonder how these developments will affect the long-term future of the comic. At present, two-thirds of the main cast are all but being written out of the comic (Annie's clearly going to be spending all her days from now on studying under her father's supervision - presumably with no time allowed for anything else - and I suspect that Antony will be having Reynardine locked up again). Kat can perhaps continue on her own (maybe with Paz promoted to a full-scale major character), but with this many big changes at once.... I disagree with a fundamental part of jf's assumption: GK doesn't operate out of a Status Quo in that way, and pretty important changes do tend to happen book-by-book, and treatise-by-treatise. I also feel this will have profound effect, but do not believe we're limited to the three options given by jf. I think this will be a big change, but not necessarily in the direction suggested by jf. Were I a betting man, I'd say Antimony stays main character (this seems obvious to me), and the stuff Anthony is putting in place will not last too terribly long... but their implementation (or threat thereof) will strongly affect the course of the comic and Antimony's character. Like I said in my previous post, it may be that Mr. Carver has been misinformed by whoever he's been talking to within the Court about the value or nature of his daughter's mediumship and time spent in the forest. Maybe it would be better to say that he may have been getting his information from a source with a bias or even an ax to grind about how Antimony disrespects the Court in the opinion of some members of the Court. This is quite possible, and would help explain the more extreme elements of the things Anthony is doing here (wouldn't explain or excuse the way he's going about it, of course, which is him being a serious jerkosaurus, to put it lightly, and it wouldn't excuse or explain the obvious mental damage/hangups Antimony has developed towards Anthony, and the various issues she's had with intimacy and friendship in general in part likely because of her childhood). However, the reason this was/could be possible is because of his long-term absence from her life. The length of time he's spent going over her scores and work from the previous term demonstrate to me that at least some of this was voluntary. This seems likely to me as well. I don't hold much expectation for Anthony to be revealed as having been forced to stay away from Antimony against his will. It's possible, sure, but just doesn't seem likely to me. Anthony isn't acting evil if you look at this from a neutral view. The Things he is doing at this moment have some semblance of sense (especially the parts with regards to her cheating) to them, yes, to someone without inside knowledge of the situation. The issues are again in the manner he is going about this (overly harsh in effect and authoritarian in tone rather than, say, assertive) and the situation/life that has led to Antimony shattering in response, the history between them that has seemed to lead to dissociation. The Bone spears. He was clearly targeting the flame within her. It will kill her someday, he knows it first hand. He was trying to save her life by ridding her of it. If that's true, it's also quite possible removing the flame will kill her. After all, that flame being removed from Surma via baby is what killed her. Anthony may be cold, but he's at the point where he has no choice. I do not believe he has no other choice, but even were that to be the case he definitely DOES have a choice in how he goes about handling the matter. He chose among the worst possible ways. He knows shes going to hate him. So he has accepted that, hence his chill manner. Or he's shut himself down emotionally because he feels horrible for what he has to do to save her life. Or he's simply one of those cold academic types. It doesn't mean he doesn't love his daughter, it just means he's emotionally retarded due to being over analytical. Another possibility is that he doesn't understand any of this and legitimately does not know he is causing and has previously caused emotional harm to her. I don't believe that's the case, but it's possible. ~shrug~ And now I hate myself, because I really want to kill this man, but I can't find fault in his actions other than him being so cold about it. I don't want to kill him, but I can find a lot of fault with his actions, though we still don't know his actual intentions. I'm with Cuttlefish on this one. (And a lot of points, it does seem). Because my fingers are disobeying me by inserting sense-reversing typos, and must be punished even harder! They've shrugged off the slammed desk drawer I used last time, but now...finger nails, meet vice grips! Quit your whining, or else...[turns on table saw] All out of my sincere love and affection for them, of course.  What I meant to say was, "I have no doubt Antimony will avoid that trap". My fingers apologize. Most sincerely. No need to go all Anthony on them! D-: (  ) OK, before the next update which I am already stressing out over because I'm sure it's going to be just as emotionally devastating as the last week's: "The Tree" is the Empire Strikes Back chapter of GC. It's the first time the comic's A plot has really kicked off since "Fire Spike"; we've been waiting for Anthony to show up since Annie's first year, and he's come bringing the big storytelling guns with him. <snip> The way Annie's various friends and allies rally to save her and fight the structures and politics of the Court/forest is going to be the next big plot arc, but I fully expect this chapter to end with Annie in solitary lockup and Rey in some version of Han Solo's block of carbonite. It does seem likely that some element of "The Dark Second/Middle Act" is coming out to play, doesn't it. Dunno if we're going full Empire here, but I could see it. EDIT: Holy moley, this post became a behemoth. Apologies for that. |
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Anthony
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No, not THAT guy.
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Post by Anthony on Apr 8, 2015 6:12:47 GMT
I can't belive I'm about to do this... and I hate it. Anthony isn't acting evil if you look at this from a neutral view. I agree. All Anthony did kind of makes sense from parent's point of view. Anthony may be one of those rational people who approach all problems with cold heart and rarely take anyone's emotions (including their own) into consideration when making decisions. "I have calculated that moving to Mars immediately will do you and me the greater good with 87% probability. Go pack your bags, we are leaving in an hour." |
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Post by Chancellor on Apr 8, 2015 6:54:32 GMT
Just gonna add that with each page, the final minutes leading to the update become more and more anxious and gut-curdling.
Props to Tom for getting me into such a state of anticipation for his work. Props and curses.
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anisky
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Post by anisky on Apr 8, 2015 6:59:39 GMT
I don't think he's evil, or the evilest evil (I mean he hasn't kicked Paz's puppy yet), but I think it'll need a pretty impressive justification to excuses how he's behaved in regards to Antimony since returning. And that's including most every scenario I can think of, or have seen proposed* *Unless it's one of the ones that includes something like " Antimony would be in danger is someone/something saw Anthony being nice to her". But why someone/something would let him back in her life, but not allow him to support her emotionally/mentally would be curious. And even then I'd argue that the makeup thing was still pointless, because teachers are expected to behave in a civilized fashion towards their students anyway. Objectively, yes, it would still have been pointless, but if it turns out that the underlined scenario is true and Anthony is secretly frantic during this scene, I think that would change my attitude towards him quite substantially. Anthony going overboard because he is frantically scared for Annie's safety (having, unknown to us, legitimate reason to be) hits my empathy buttons. Frantic people are not known for acting rationally or well, and I think it would make him a hell of a lot more relatable. |
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