freeman
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That 70's Coyote!
Posts: 242
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Post by freeman on Apr 6, 2015 11:16:04 GMT
That 'Okay' has just transferred control, even if she changes her mind later. No, the transfer of custody won't happen until Annie tells Reynardine to obey her Father. Could be either way; "it's magic, I don't need to explain shit."What we do know? 1) We don't know if Renard (or Hetty for that matter) knew automatically about their ownership "contract", but the initial rules of the ownership apply automatically. 2) Orders must be given vocally to Renard, he can't read minds. So, how would a vague order, like for example "never do anything I would not do" work? - According to what Renard genuinely thinks Antimony wants, which he cannot override. - Renard can interpret this as he likes. - Renard actually and through magic fully complies and never does what Antimony would not do. Likewise, what is "too late" (klikka här)? - What Renard thinks Antimony thinks is too late? - According to renard's own judgement. - According to what Antimony actually wants? - There is a magical universal constant of "too late out" for plushie wolf demons belonging for teenage partial fire elementals. - The rules are flexible, if for example that man who infact was Eglamore had something weighty to tell for Renard, he would not need to leave mid sentence like Cinderella. In case of this ownership change by Antimony saying "okay", let's elaborate several cases: 1) Antimony meets Renard and gives him an order, other than "you now belong to my father", how is Renard to act? - Deny because Antimony no longer has a right to command him nor he has a right to obey her commands as due inherent rules of this body snatching demond business. - Obey out of his own will because Anthony has not yet explicitly ordered him not to. - Obey because Anthony has not yet come to see him to announce something like "bow before me for you know I am your new master!!!" 2) Anthony meets Renard and gives him an order to bow before him, for he is his new master: -Renard obeys for he knows Anthony is his new master due the inherent rules of this magic. -Rebard obeys out of his own judgement without breaking the rules Antimony has prevously set for him. -Renard denies, for Antimony has not yet formally announced the change of ownership for him. I'm kind of bound to think that the ownership would change instantly just by that, but there is a lot of wiggle room what comes after that. Could Renard for example escape and go to hiding because Anthony has not yet told him not to (assuming the orders court made Antimony give him did not cover this very case); or would Antimony or someone else need to tell Renard before he knew he could do that? |
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Post by thelaurent on Apr 6, 2015 11:35:21 GMT
Paging zimmyzims to defend this amazing and perfect father who is clearly doing nothing wrong and why would any of us be worried.
Paging zimmyzims.
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lit
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Post by lit on Apr 6, 2015 11:48:03 GMT
Clearly this is just a dad being a dad, a man with no ulterior motives.
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Post by speedwell on Apr 6, 2015 11:50:31 GMT
And no, for those asking for a fiery explosion, you just don't say "no". My father was also a scientific and I was artfully inclined, so a lot of disappointment. When I was 10 I had to get "don't even think you are going to study to be a writer, its not happening" chat, and I just nodded my head It took me years to even think of standing up for myself, and even now I am 27 and just a hint of a frown or a thoughtful face is more than enough to send shivers down my spine. And yes even to this day I follow orders to the T most of the time. Sweetheart, I'm 48. My father was an engineer and I was also the artsy type. He was totally behind me going to school to be a musician. It fit with his idea of me being ladylike and cultured and decorative. I had piano lessons as soon as I was tall enough to reach the keys and literate enough to understand the note names and read a staff. My curse was that I was gifted at it. Now you're thinking, why was that a curse? Because I didn't want to be a pianist. I wanted to be an engineer like Daddy; I wanted to solve problems with machinery and make things that lasted and that other people would associate my name with every time they used... if you asked me at the time, I would say I wanted to make stuff. That's creativity, too, and my father was a gifted inventor but denied his creativity. I told my father many times that I wanted to be an engineer. He would respond, "you're too talented to give up your music". Or, he'd say, "your mother and I bought you that grand piano and years of lessons and you want to throw it away now". Or, he'd say, "don't be ridiculous, you're only saying that because you think I go to work for fun". When I was 17 and considering universities, he said the thing that broke my spine. "You're not enough of a b*tch to be an engineer." In other words, he was saying he didn't respect me enough as a person to admit me to the sacred fraternity of People To Take Seriously. He was making light of my intellect and my ability to relate to people. What I should have said was, "Well, goddamn it, you're my father, teach me to be a b*tch." What I actually said, Antimony-like, was, "Oh." And I went on to fail... fail at being a pianist because it wasn't what I wanted to do... fail at work because my heart wasn't in it... fail at relating to people because I was told I wasn't able to stand up for myself. When I was 35, I was a temp. The agency sent me to be the office manager for a small office consisting of an engineer and his sales guy. The engineer had a college-age daughter who was studying to be a doctor in a prestigious university. He told me I had an engineer's mindset and I should think about becoming an engineer. "Oh, no, Mr. Jankiram, but thank you very much for saying so; it really means something that you should say so." After the contract was over, I was next sent to be the assistant for an engineering department of a large corporation. "You really get it. You love this stuff," said the staff engineers. "Thanks, guys, I love working with you," I would say. I became a trainer for engineering software. I travelled around the world. The managers would all say, "You understand this. You love it. Why did you never become an engineer?" I would say, "Well, I am grateful that you think I get along well with you. Do you really think I would have made a good engineer?" My father died. I worked with a therapist who helped me understand that my father's opinions died with him. But his opinions had become my opinions for 30 years and I just didn't know what other opinions to have. I was laid off from my job last year. My husband told me I should take some of my severance pay and go to school to be an engineer. "Oh, I couldn't do that. We need the money and it's not realistic," I said. His response was unprintable and ended with, "You WILL follow your dream or I will lose my respect for you." I did enroll. I had a chat with my academic advisor last month. He said, "Your grades are among the highest I've seen for a first-year. Your essays could have been written by an Industrial-Age philosopher. Why did you not go into engineering when you were in your 20s?" I told him why. He swore like only an Irishman can swear. He said my father was a fool, a jerk, and several of the other nice things we've been saying about Anthony. Every one of his curses fell on my spirit like rain on a wheat field in July. I needed so badly for someone to finally fight in my corner. I'm going to fight in yours now. I'm going to tell you what someone should have told me all those years ago: Your father is wrong. Your father has a worldview colored by his expectations for you that he has not re-evaluated since you were young. Your father's opinions are only that, his opinions. They are hurtful opinions and he is wrong to hold them. You are an adult. I'll say that again; you are an ADULT. You are absolutely entitled to--REQUIRED to--meet him as his equal, and when it comes to your dreams and hopes, his superior. He does not have the right to issue orders anymore. His lack of respect for you must not translate into your lack of respect for yourself. No other adult who cares about you would belittle you or your dreams. I wouldn't even think of doing so. When your father, or another adult upon whom you depend (like your boss, your spiritual leader, or another authority figure), issues you an order, take two seconds to think, "They are not perfect. They could be wrong. They are expressing their opinion based on what they think is right. They have their own reasons for doing so." What is true? (You have the right to evaluate reality for yourself.) What is right? (You have the right to evaluate morality for yourself.) What do I want? (You have the right to decide this for yourself, and the right to change your mind.) What sort of treatment do I deserve? (Respect and kindness, at minimum.) |
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erro
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Post by erro on Apr 6, 2015 11:57:22 GMT
No, the transfer of custody won't happen until Annie tells Reynardine to obey her Father. Could be either way; "it's magic, I don't need to explain shit."What we do know? 1) We don't know if Renard (or Hetty for that matter) knew automatically about their ownership "contract", but the initial rules of the ownership apply automatically. 2) Orders must be given vocally to Renard, he can't read minds. So, how would a vague order, like for example "never do anything I would not do" work? - According to what Renard genuinely thinks Antimony wants, which he cannot override. - Renard can interpret this as he likes. - Renard actually and through magic fully complies and never does what Antimony would not do. Likewise, what is "too late" (klikka här)? - What Renard thinks Antimony thinks is too late? - According to renard's own judgement. - According to what Antimony actually wants? - There is a magical universal constant of "too late out" for plushie wolf demons belonging for teenage partial fire elementals. - The rules are flexible, if for example that man who infact was Eglamore had something weighty to tell for Renard, he would not need to leave mid sentence like Cinderella. In case of this ownership change by Antimony saying "okay", let's elaborate several cases: 1) Antimony meets Renard and gives him an order, other than "you now belong to my father", how is Renard to act? - Deny because Antimony no longer has a right to command him nor he has a right to obey her commands as due inherent rules of this body snatching demond business. - Obey out of his own will because Anthony has not yet explicitly ordered him not to. - Obey because Anthony has not you come to see him to announce something like "bow before for you know I am your new master!!!" 2) Anthony meets Renard and gives him an order to bow before him, for he is his new master: -Renard obeys for he knows Anthony is his new master due the inherent rules of this magic. -Rebard obeys out of his own judgement without breaking the rules Antimony has prevously set for him. -Renard denies, for Antimony has not yet formally announced the change of ownership for him. I'm kind of bound to think that the ownership would change instantly just by that, but there is a lot of wiggle room what comes after that. Could Renard for example escape and go to hiding before Anthony has not yet told him not to (or if the orders court made Antimony give him did not cover this very case); would Antimony need to tell Renard before he knew he can do that? If I was magic, I wouldn't uphold this transferance- antimony is not sane, and is being forced to by her father. This will break the bond immidiately. Anthonys method of forcing is not normal, but that doesn't stop it from being forced. Antimony is, in my view, now in chains, and Anthony is demanding food for Renardine. This is as forced as it gets. Now I'm imagining Renardine telling anthony he's abusive, and anthony not knowing that, and having a Fire Spike worthy breakdown. |
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 6, 2015 12:05:56 GMT
dammit Annie you're never going to be a payed well with negotiation skills like that! Then again, is there any point to negotiate? Doesn't appear so. this fortunately shouldn't last for too long (wonder how jones, anja, Donny, and eglamore will react to this) I'd limit the list to Annie and Kat. I think at this point we can say that speculation suggesting that the court summoned anthony to deal with antimony is basically true. Howwwww? There's no way Mr. Control Freak would just coincidentally demand something the headmaster tried and failed at eariler. And still does not follow. I hope that is an internal "ok", and you're actually saying "okay, I need to say no". To the best of my knowledge, flat "okay" can also mean "oh, whatever", among the other things. But most likely it's just a verbal equivalent of dazed nodding rather than any sort of decision - she doesn't look capable of making any right now. Ok I expected a comment about Renard, I didn't expect Annie to just acquiesce that easily. That 'Okay' has just transferred control, even if she changes her mind later. If we are to lawyerize it, techncally she expressed agreement with Anthony's prediction (statement of an event still in indefinite future), nothing more. It doesn't bind Renard in any way except indirectly if it somehow binds her. So a better (and more appropriate) response from him would be to act delighted and amused by this revelation, and then declare that Ysengrin will get his old job back, knowing full well that this will piss off the court. Coyote needs only to say that if the Old Sack of Bones enjoyed dealing with Ysengrin so much, Coyote appreciates his politeness, but contriving to compromise his new Medium was uncalled for, he only had to ask. (and then laugh, of course) The worst part of all of this isn't even really the WAY he's going about it: he's being a real shithead about it, yes, and that's terrible... but the truly horrific thing to me is how utterly shattered Antimony is. And the relevant thing is that Anthony doesn't seem to be concerned at all. It shows the power Anthony has over her, and how broken she is when it comes to handling her father, and how easily he can disrupt who she is and how she normally functions. Yup. Though she got some vaccination (in Fire Spike, for one), she may just fight it off. Given how she flipped out at Mort, who was her friend, well... |
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Post by speedwell on Apr 6, 2015 12:11:57 GMT
She would hardly do the transfer without informing Reynardine first. I think she would avoid Jones, though, because she is locked in "obey without question" mode, and Jones has always been the voice of reality and reason (that is, objectivity, something that is too much of a luxury for Antimony to afford at the moment).
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Post by Elysium on Apr 6, 2015 12:19:10 GMT
"B-But he must have good reasons !"
Yeah, right...
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 6, 2015 12:31:16 GMT
I hope that is an internal "ok", and you're actually saying "okay, I need to say no". To the best of my knowledge, flat "okay" can also mean "oh, whatever", among the other things. But most likely it's just a verbal equivalent of dazed nodding rather than any sort of decision - she doesn't look capable of making any right now. |
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Chendzee'a
New Member
They should have sent a poet...
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Post by Chendzee'a on Apr 6, 2015 12:42:34 GMT
Okay.... This has gone into full on Break the Cutie trope mode. It's honestly nearing the point where I'm dreading even reading anything else in this comic till this is resolved. It's like watching some jerk beat up a child or their girlfriend. Outright bullying and it's uncomfortable to see. Annie needs to stand up or someone needs to intervene. Emotional Drama overload. I think it's mostly due to the fact that it's being dragged out due to the nature of comic pacing, which can't be helped I suppose.
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Post by attiem on Apr 6, 2015 12:47:08 GMT
I... thank you. I don't know what to say beyond that, I am very glad that you could end studying what you wanted eventually. I am very familiar with the failing part myself, right now I am ending a degree I only just sort of want and is very hard because you want to be doing other things, is better than the one I simply didn't want but somehow I was able to negotiate for this one instead. I am not going to lie and say I am going to stand up to him any time soon, but I plan my little rebellion for when I can afford it, maybe I will be able to. |
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Post by sable0aria on Apr 6, 2015 12:51:40 GMT
I seriously don't know if I can keep reading this chapter. Carver is pulling off a tactic abusers use on their victims all the time, I feel like I'm going to be sick after this page. I am really wondering what their relationship was like before Surma died.
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Post by todd on Apr 6, 2015 12:58:24 GMT
While "this is all a nightmare" seems like a cop-out, I think this is reaching the point where such a revelation is beginning to seem tempting.
Antony has not only placed Annie under such strictures that she's not likely to be doing anything other than studying (and as I've said in previous posts, from what we've seen of him, I'd say that his security methods aren't likely to be as easily defeated as the Court's), but has now received custody of Reynardine - and we can be certain that we won't be seeing much of Rey once that happens. It will be all but impossible to continue the webcomic long-term like this in a recognizable form if this isn't reversed; two major characters (one the protagonist) have been effectively written out, or are close to it. (All we need now is for Kat to get expelled - either through Antony remaining unconvinced that she didn't know about Annie cheating off her, or Kat trying to break Annie out and getting caught.) And I can't see how this situation could be realistically reversed.
And this is just the second chapter after the most recent hiatus, so it's too soon to be ending the comic (not to mention a lot of threads have still not been resolved).
Maybe Tom is planning all of this as a major shake-up of the comic to keep things from getting stale, but I still think that all these recent changes are going to make it harder to continue the story without essentially making it "Gunnerkrigg Court Mark Two: A New Set of Major Characters".
And let's hope his solution isn't to have Tea pop up and say that Tom can't figure out how to unsnarl this situation, so he's ending the comic prematurely. (Mark Twain once ended a story in a similar fashion, but he was doing it on purpose for satirical effect.)
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Post by pendell on Apr 6, 2015 13:07:51 GMT
Okay, the question in my mind is, where is the rest of the faculty and headmaster of the Court in all this? Anthony may be her father, but in firing her as forest medium and by taking her private property he is vastly overstepping his bounds. He is NOT god, and a lot of the things he's talking about should need the signoff of the other adults. Is anyone on the faculty going to start stepping up and doing their jobs? Do we even get a mediator or something like to talk this through?
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Post by speedwell on Apr 6, 2015 13:08:51 GMT
No. Just no. Tom has placed Annie in a situation where she can only obey completely or disobey somehow. Since the comic can't continue with her being robotically and flawlessly obedient, clearly the only question we are left with is how and when she will disobey.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Apr 6, 2015 13:14:06 GMT
No. Just no. Tom has placed Annie in a situation where she can only obey completely or disobey somehow. Since the comic can't continue with her being robotically and flawlessly obedient, clearly the only question we are left with is how and when she will disobey. Concur, mostly because just being rescued by others may not help Annie excise her father's influence and it would be a pretty lame narrative. |
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quark
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Post by quark on Apr 6, 2015 13:19:06 GMT
While "this is all a nightmare" seems like a cop-out, I think this is reaching the point where such a revelation is beginning to seem tempting. Antony has not only placed Annie under such strictures that she's not likely to be doing anything other than studying (and as I've said in previous posts, from what we've seen of him, I'd say that his security methods aren't likely to be as easily defeated as the Court's), but has now received custody of Reynardine - and we can be certain that we won't be seeing much of Rey once that happens. It will be all but impossible to continue the webcomic long-term like this in a recognizable form if this isn't reversed; two major characters (one the protagonist) have been effectively written out, or are close to it. (All we need now is for Kat to get expelled - either through Antony remaining unconvinced that she didn't know about Annie cheating off her, or Kat trying to break Annie out and getting caught.) And I can't see how this situation could be realistically reversed. Well, at the moment he just wants to punish Kat, but her expelled? Her parents are teachers at the school, and have been with him in school. She's a genius. Even if Anthony has absolute power over Antimony, he doesn't have power over Kat at all. Especially since the Donlans can and will stand up to him, probably even in Annie's case. And just 'knowing about somebody else's cheating' is no basis for expelling a student. And 'breaking Annie out'? Anthony can forbid Annie to spend time with Kat, but he can't keep Kat from trying to spend time with Annie. 'Visiting your friend' (who has no contagious disease) isn't a criminal offence, last time I looked. Rey is another case, but with people like Eglamore who - while not exactly in Rey's court - can't stand Anthony either, 'keeping' and 'using' Rey will be difficult for Anthony. |
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quark
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Post by quark on Apr 6, 2015 13:21:27 GMT
No. Just no. Tom has placed Annie in a situation where she can only obey completely or disobey somehow. Since the comic can't continue with her being robotically and flawlessly obedient, clearly the only question we are left with is how and when she will disobey. And, who will help her disobey. Really, those last few comics have been painful to read - I'm lucky I myself haven't been in Annie's position, but I've been in Kat's, too many times. |
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Post by ctso74 on Apr 6, 2015 13:42:10 GMT
The horse is dead, Anthony, you can stop now. The horse is dead and bisected. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Apr 6, 2015 13:43:46 GMT
That 'Okay' has just transferred control, even if she changes her mind later. No, the transfer of custody won't happen until Annie tells Reynardine to obey her Father. This is how I think it to work too. But to what extent does that really transfer the custody? Rey has to obey Annie because of being trapped in a doll with her symbol on it. If they do not change that, then would that transfer be cancelled simply by Annie saying so again? So that Anthony would only be in control of Rey because and as long as Annie says so? But if he can gain the full control that is independent of Annie upholding it for him, then this makes very much sense for the cover page of the treatise 6, where Rey and Annie are standing on different sides. I have been wondering whether Rey would stay in Court if Annie jumped on the other side, but it may be that he has no choice. To my mind, this gives a suggestive evidence that the Court may have called Anthony back, because they have already twice tried to get Rey from Annie, and in the end, it was as simple as this when they just got some authority to take him from her - the Headmaster also claimed he didn't want Annie to be the Forest medium, which I doubt was honest, but if it was, again, this would have been a good plan. Anyway, this fits that storyline (Anthony was away on Court mission and now called back) quite perfectly. However, I wonder how much Anthony is an independent agent. This is all a guessing game, but if, as it has seemed, the Court has not been aware of his doings (although we know hardly anything about what the headmaster or "the Court" knows), but he has still been in Court's service somehow, he might be somewhat unreliable agent for them, someone they have to turn to in order to get their plans advanced, but who also uses them to advance his own plans. And so, a possibility remains that even if he's playing for Court now, he is not really in their control and may betray their plans at some point. So, this is not necessarily the optimal way for the Court to gain the control of Rey. |
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karl
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Post by karl on Apr 6, 2015 13:54:54 GMT
I think the worst thing is that there is a tomorrow for Antimony. A tomorrow (might not actually be the next day in comic), when she wakes up and realizes that she is completely alone. No Kat, no Reynardine, no other classmates, no wacky robots inspired by a 90's situational comedy, nothing. Then she'll go to school, to a class where she does not know anyone and if my guess is right then the new class isn't going to be very welcoming towards her. After the day in school she has to go back to her house (or perhaps the library/study hall) to study. And she will study, because there is not going to be much else she is allowed to do. Studying while being all alone, because I don't think her father is going to tutoring her (or visiting her at all). If the teachers will not ask her to answer any questions in class, then I believe that there could be days, maybe in a row, when she does not say a single word. This all looks like how she first came to the court with the mask, not talking much and spending time in the study hall.
That extra page after Mort said "See ya" only with Antimony sitting in the empty class, alone - that is what will happen if she does not say anything to voice her complaints. And she won't because she's in a state of mind where she will agree to everything. A single complaint, an objection or something like that will make her father even more disappointed in her and that is something she does not want at all cost. Her father is cool and smart and does an important job and now had to come back to school because she was not behaving.
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Post by arf on Apr 6, 2015 13:58:41 GMT
I'm puzzled by Tony's request for control of Reynard. I thought the ownership contract was with Annie specifically, and couldn't be transferred. This, Annie's increasingly helpless depiction, and the more abstract style in the last panels, makes me swing more to the dream theory.
While I agree that 'it was all a bad dream.' can be a weak option, it could make sense if this dream had a trigger associated with Tony. The simplest explanation would be if Annie's still in the wash room getting to grips with a 'worst case scenario' panic attack, and the next pages are a milder re-run of what we've just endured.
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Post by ctso74 on Apr 6, 2015 13:59:10 GMT
... Well, on the bright-side of things at least Rey doesn't have to stay with those 'mechanical fools.' Heh, I don't know what would be more of a setup for an Odd Couple-esque sitcom - Rey and the FriendsBots, or Rey and Anthony. Anthony IS Mr. Heckles! Everything makes sense, now. |
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Post by mimhoff on Apr 6, 2015 14:01:53 GMT
Okay, the question in my mind is, where is the rest of the faculty and headmaster of the Court in all this? Anthony may be her father, but in firing her as forest medium and by taking her private property he is vastly overstepping his bounds. He is NOT god, and a lot of the things he's talking about should need the signoff of the other adults. Is anyone on the faculty going to start stepping up and doing their jobs? Do we even get a mediator or something like to talk this through? But this is exactly what the Court and the headmaster want to happen. The Court wants her to stay put and not make friends with anyone from the Forest, that's why they didn't make her their medium. Annie has friends in the faculty, but as zimmyzims says, we don't know who actually makes the rules in the Court. This has gone way beyond "Carver, come back and teach your child some discipline" to what appears to be a plan someone cooked up beforehand. But who? Is Carver a part of the inner circle? Does he have his own agenda? |
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Post by todd on Apr 6, 2015 14:03:13 GMT
Well, at the moment he just wants to punish Kat, but her expelled? Her parents are teachers at the school, and have been with him in school. She's a genius. Even if Anthony has absolute power over Antimony, he doesn't have power over Kat at all. Especially since the Donlans can and will stand up to him, probably even in Annie's case. And just 'knowing about somebody else's cheating' is no basis for expelling a student. And 'breaking Annie out'? Anthony can forbid Annie to spend time with Kat, but he can't keep Kat from trying to spend time with Annie. 'Visiting your friend' (who has no contagious disease) isn't a criminal offence, last time I looked. Please don't overanalyze that comment. My point is that two of the three chief characters in "Gunnerkrigg Court" (Annie and Reynardine) have been as good as written out - since under the terms that Anthony's imposing on them, they're unlikely to be able to do much more while the regime lasts. Kat's the only one left - and all Tom needs to do is write her out to require him to either produce a new cast of major characters or end the comic. |
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Post by sabriel on Apr 6, 2015 14:03:54 GMT
I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out Coyote's insight into Rey's position. I'm on mobile so linking it would be difficult, but towards the end of Fire Spike, when Annie tells Coyote that the Court tricked Renard, his response ends in something like this.
"It is not the meddling laws of man that keep him there, but his love for you!"
Implying that the ownership spell actually can't control him, which makes sense seeing as Renard appears to be at least somewhat god-like, and this magic seems awfully petty for someone like him, especially when he could so easily remove that powerful hex from Annie in The Torn Sea.
I don't think Tony will actually be able to keep a hold of Renard even if Annie does transfer ownership of the doll to him. The only evidence I can think of that points otherwise is his interactions with Hettie, but it's possible that he doesn't know he can break the spell himself because he's never tried. After all, Coyote never lies!
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Post by ctso74 on Apr 6, 2015 14:11:41 GMT
I seriously don't know if I can keep reading this chapter. Carver is pulling off a tactic abusers use on their victims all the time, I feel like I'm going to be sick after this page. I am really wondering what their relationship was like before Surma died. 2. I wonder if Anthony essentially did the same thing to Surma... Isolated her from the forest and all her friends so he could have complete control over her. Then tried to excise the fire elemental from her (without success). We really don't know too much about Surma/Tony history, or what their relationship was like. I would like to think Surma was stronger than that, but we all have our weaknesses. 3. Maybe Annie already set Rey free and Anthony is in for a surprise.* Annie already told Rey that he would set him free to go back to the forest. Rey could have been continuing to live in the plushie so the Court wouldn't know about his freedom and to be with Annie. This could be Rey's chance to truly take Anthony's place as Annie's father. * Wishful thinking If Rey was his endgame, that could be a way to reset the narrative. If it was his only goal, Anthony would have no reason to stay. Afterwards, Annie would realize she had a problem with her father, and had to toughen up. That would be a pretty depressing chapter, but it doesn't exactly seem like rainbows and ponies right now, so... |
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Post by pxc on Apr 6, 2015 14:38:29 GMT
Weird that Tony uses the name Renardine rather than just Renard. Renardine is the name Surma gave him here: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=790 A seeming term of endearment, though we know now she was just tricking him. This probably doesn't matter. Also, Tony is still an abusive dickhole, blah blah blah. |
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Post by KMar on Apr 6, 2015 14:50:15 GMT
No, the transfer of custody won't happen until Annie tells Reynardine to obey her Father. This is how I think it to work too. But to what extent does that really transfer the custody? Rey has to obey Annie because of being trapped in a doll with her symbol on it. If they do not change that, then would that transfer be cancelled simply by Annie saying so again? So that Anthony would only be in control of Rey because and as long as Annie says so? But if he can gain the full control that is independent of Annie upholding it for him, then this makes very much sense for the cover page of the treatise 6, where Rey and Annie are standing on different sides. I have been wondering whether Rey would stay in Court if Annie jumped on the other side, but it may be that he has no choice. Well, the role of the symbol is interesting. Rey does say that the contract exists because of the Antimony symbol, but it is also established that the main reason he is under Antimony's control is because the doll is hers.. So is it enough that Annie gives the doll to her father? "It's now yours." But it's the symbol that establishes the doll as Antimony's. So maybe the most she can do is just say that "You have to obey my father", other would count as taking the doll from her and setting Rey free. Anyway, I think that the "okay" was enough to do anything it does, but that remains to seen, too. The magic is instant: right before Annie ran to the Forest, Rey couldn't say things that were false as soon he had heard the truth. (+ 1 point for "after Annie said okay, Rey is now Tony's") However, he apparently had to first to hear it before the "can't lie" clause would apply, so he apparently could say things that were untrue if he didn't know better. (+1 for "Annie must tell him first". Or maybe it suffices that Tony just comes and says "Annie gave you to me", but until Rey doesn't know, he doesn't have to obey Tony.) (In other words, that would mean we also couldn't use him as an tool to revolutionize theoretical mathematics just asking things like "is the Riemann hypethesis true". Dang.) Also, we don't know if Annie or Tony know all the intricacies of the deal that was made when Rey entered the body, and even if Annie would know, she isn't exactly currently thinking straight. Maybe if Annie says "I give this doll to my father" or maybe even this "okay" she already said, it actually nullifies the ownership contract and sets (or already set) Rey free, unbeknownst to Annie and Tony. Ans anyway, Tony just lowered himself to the level of taking her daughter's plushie that her mother made for her (maybe didn't take by force, but by persuasion and intimidation). Even if the transfer is valid, Rey is going to call him out on that. |
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Post by KMar on Apr 6, 2015 15:01:14 GMT
(sorry for doublepost) I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out Coyote's insight into Rey's position. I'm on mobile so linking it would be difficult, but towards the end of Fire Spike, when Annie tells Coyote that the Court tricked Renard, his response ends in something like this. "It is not the meddling laws of man that keep him there, but his love for you!" Implying that the ownership spell actually can't control him, which makes sense seeing as Renard appears to be at least somewhat god-like, and this magic seems awfully petty for someone like him, especially when he could so easily remove that powerful hex from Annie in The Torn Sea. I don't think Tony will actually be able to keep a hold of Renard even if Annie does transfer ownership of the doll to him. The only evidence I can think of that points otherwise is his interactions with Hettie, but it's possible that he doesn't know he can break the spell himself because he's never tried. After all, Coyote never lies! I think Coyote meant that Rey isn't actively trying to find loopholes in the contract (like Hetty). For example, maybe he could scheme a way to remove the Annie's mark on the toy? |
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