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Post by Daedalus on Apr 6, 2015 7:49:17 GMT
Tony still doesn't know about the Coyote Tooth. Stabby doom, Annie. Stabby doom time. I'm wondering if Anthony lost his hand because he carried a similar binding, either from Coyote or a similar being. I'm thinking he was given an order that he regarded as unethical and refused to carry it out. Speaking of which... Tony Carver! I summon you, to answer for your crimes against our happiness! |
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Post by Chancellor on Apr 6, 2015 7:49:53 GMT
I guess I'm hoping that Annie remembers what Ysengrin said about her being too weak to deal with the Fire Spike revelations directly. She couldn't deal, but that doesn't mean she CAN'T rise up and be stronger. As with her "open forum" with some of the less orderly forest denizens, when she allows herself to be, Annie possesses and almost unstoppable force of will.
Break over this wall of sentimentality and meek obedience, this man is Boxbot kinds of bad news, Antimony.
Beat his ass. But probably in a metaphorical sense, not literally.
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Apr 6, 2015 7:51:13 GMT
There was previously discussion of whether Coyote would fight Anthony either on behalf of Antimony as The Forest's putative representative or just for the fun of fighting. My guess (just a guess and speculation, "Because Coyote, Who Knows") is that although he was willing - he says - to let Reynardine be trapped by The Court as a whole largely in the persons of people like Eglamore, Anja and Donald, he is NOT going to be willing to have Reynardine and the powers Reynardine holds used as a tool by Anthony for heaven knows what, including potentially an attack on The Forest in some way. I agree. At this point Anthony is crossing Coyote twice at once. First, removing Annie as the forest medium, which will not please Coyote nor Ysengrim. And at the same time trying to take control of Renard. And it's not like the court has plausible deniability. He explicitly works for them now. Actually, I think Coyote is in a bit of a difficult position here. If Anthony claims his daughter is not competent to serve as medium and this news makes Coyote angry, then to anyone Anthony has convinced (remember, the court already denied her the job of court medium. They'd be leaning toward Anthony's assessment anyway), it will appear that Coyote is angry about not being able to manipulate her to do his bidding. So a better (and more appropriate) response from him would be to act delighted and amused by this revelation, and then declare that Ysengrin will get his old job back, knowing full well that this will piss off the court. But if the court is in agreement with Anthony, it's still a very weak bargaining chip, since I think they'd be willing to eat their losses with Ysengrin if it meant preventing a potential catastrophe with Annie. And on top of that, he can't really negotiate on behalf of Reynardine, since he is an agreed-upon prisoner of the court. All he can do there is issue a complaint, and even then there's no indication that being under Anthony's control would be worse for him. And since Annie has to willingly trade control of Rey to another person, the whole line of negotiation is pretty much a dead end. As far as outwitting a trickster god goes, he could do worse. |
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Ammy
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Post by Ammy on Apr 6, 2015 7:52:22 GMT
Well, if Anthony is taking away all other sources of distraction in Annie's friends/peer group and the Forest, that would only leave Rey as the last distraction from being a compliant studybot, assuming Annie would not disobey her dear father. (Note that I do totally think that Annie deserves punishment for all the ridiculous amounts of cheating, but yes, this is a little much.)
And in all fairness, look at it from Anthony's shoes: consider that Rey totally did kill one in Anthony's shared friend group to get to Surma. Even if he is under some degree of control now, if I was Annie's parent I definitely would not want someone who murdered one of my friends to hit on my now-dead wife to be anywhere near one of my kids if possible. He hasn't seen Rey's reform, and even if he was told about it, would you forgive and forget so easily over murder of someone you knew and liked? The Forest is also full of a bunch of beastly psychopaths from Anthony's perspective, and there is real truth in that too regardless of how well Annie has mostly done in there.
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Post by Chancellor on Apr 6, 2015 7:59:45 GMT
Maybe there's a Starman waiting in the sky, ready to meteor slap Anthony?
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Post by Epsilon Rose on Apr 6, 2015 8:04:30 GMT
this fortunately shouldn't last for too long (wonder how jones, anja, Donny, and eglamore will react to this) Unfortunately, Annie's answer might be the only one that matters for some of these. For example, Renardine's ownership probably wouldn't care what Jones thinks. Hopefully a sinlge OK isn't enough to count for a transfer. That or it breaks the bond and Renard comes running to find out what happens (Cue well deserved smack down). |
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Apr 6, 2015 8:05:36 GMT
I agree. At this point Anthony is crossing Coyote twice at once. First, removing Annie as the forest medium, which will not please Coyote nor Ysengrim. And at the same time trying to take control of Renard. And it's not like the court has plausible deniability. He explicitly works for them now. Actually, I think Coyote is in a bit of a difficult position here. If Anthony claims his daughter is not competent to serve as medium and this news makes Coyote angry, then to anyone Anthony has convinced (remember, the court already denied her the job of court medium. They'd be leaning toward Anthony's assessment anyway), it will appear that Coyote is angry about not being able to manipulate her to do his bidding. So a better (and more appropriate) response from him would be to act delighted and amused by this revelation, and then declare that Ysengrin will get his old job back, knowing full well that this will piss off the court. But if the court is in agreement with Anthony, it's still a very weak bargaining chip, since I think they'd be willing to eat their losses with Ysengrin if it meant preventing a potential catastrophe with Annie. And on top of that, he can't really negotiate on behalf of Reynardine, since he is an agreed-upon prisoner of the court. All he can do there is issue a complaint, and even then there's no indication that being under Anthony's control would be worse for him. Anthony could even argue that it would be better. It's pretty much a dead end. As far as outwitting a trickster god goes, he could do worse. This sounds a lot like strategy. I don't do strategy. You're thinking way too hard on my behalf. Here's what I'm thinking: - This changes everything, but not in a ooooh-this-could-be-interesting! way.
- So I'm opposed to this, and displeased. A displeased Coyote is an angry Coyote.
- I spent lots of time finding a medium I can mess with. Not gonna give that up just ten chapters later.
But I'm still flattered that you think I'm subtle enough to submit one of your fancy-pantsy "complaints". |
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Apr 6, 2015 8:07:35 GMT
^^^ Nice try Coyote, but I'm not about to succumb to your lies  Okay, at this point...either Annie's on her way to square-one Losersville, population: her and boxbot...or Tony Stark here is about to sit her down and go, "Okay, I want to say that was a good try but you conceded all your ground to me. If you really want this position as a Medium, and assert yourself as a real voice in this court who everyone will take seriously, you're going to have to deal with much tougher situations than this. Now let's try again, but this time I want to hear you put forward some strong alternatives to my demands." |
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Post by rafk on Apr 6, 2015 8:12:38 GMT
Yeah, this is what it is all about. Tony wants Rey. The rest was just about breaking Annie's will.
He doesn't actually care about parenting Annie, as should be rather apparent given his absence and the manner of his return.
Either Kat is getting help, or Tony will arrogantly send Annie alone to fetch Rey and allow for Rey and Kat to talk her out of this. Or maybe Tony will make a mistake and overgild the lily by trying to separate Annie from Kat. But I can't see this going further. We're too far into the story to go quite so dark. Well, I hope so.
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Kriselia
Junior Member
But she smells wonderful!
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Post by Kriselia on Apr 6, 2015 8:19:57 GMT
Nooo! I can't even, this is physically hard to read. I still don't think it's a dream or imaginary or anything, but I'm wondering if that would be better at this point. Atleast now that's she's full on dissociation it can't go on like the couple of previous pages.
My worst fear is that it's real and that "okay." was enough to transfer control to him already?
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Post by AnUpliftedCuttlefish on Apr 6, 2015 8:20:53 GMT
Annie is doing absolutely the right thing, here. This falls under the "do not argue with the cop at the side of the road" rule, although it is not morally or legally equivalent. Take the ticket, see your lawyer. Fighting with the cop only makes things worse.
In Annie's case, she capitulates now, and gets answers to her questions later. Immediate cooperation right now, though, is the best way to show contrition and a willingness to do better. I actually disagree, strongly. Since: A. We're not talking about a ticket, and the prospect of being unjustly out a bit of money. We're talking about a living being, and Antimony's friend. Antimony can complain to everyone and their mothers about this once he has Rey, but Anthony owns him till he decides otherwise. No lawyer is getting that overturned. B.Anthony isn't a cop. He's a biology teacher, and Antimony's father. Are we to assume that denying him control of Rey is like arguing with an armed police officer? What authority/power does he have to force her to hand him over, if she says "no" - much as she did when the Court tried? He'll... take her out of school? Send her to her room alone? Forbid her from going to the forest seeing Kat? Most responses I can think of - if Anthony is willing to push the Rey issue - are either already being done, or would counter the idea that this is "all about ensuring she becomes a good student at GC, and passes her classes without cheating.". and finally C. Antimony should give Anthony the benefit of the doubt that he'll respond to appeasement? And she should be willing to risk Rey on the assumption the answers will be worth it? Antimony isn't a circuit in need of troubleshooting though. She's at worst a girl who has cheated, and has a bit of an anti-authoritarian streak* (the later which seems to mostly be out of her system - with no thanks to Anthony). When you want to "troubleshoot" a person, you speak to them. You don't take a wrecking ball approach to their life, especially when it's a life that - cheating aside - isn't bad. She's certainly got a lot better track record of being there for people that need her, for example. *Which isn't in itself a bad thing, if it's tempered by wisdom. Eglamore's opinion of Anthony seems little better than Rey's these days. The question isn't whether he'd vouch for Rey, it's why he'd be willing to help Anthony get control of Rey. Especially when he hears what an jerk he's been to Antimony so far. And why are you assuming he doesn't already know he isn't an uncontrolled monster? I'd even question - Court perceptions aside - whether he was ever an uncontrolled monster (as opposed to someone who made a terrible mistake, which then snowballed). |
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Post by matoyak on Apr 6, 2015 8:22:09 GMT
To me it isn't necessarily the Things Anthony is doing here that gets me: most of those do make at least some degree of sense. - Redoing a year for cheating: on the harsher end of the scale, but not unheard of and better than being given the boot and sent to a public school. [also better than what she'd get in a later period of school: Uni would just boot her, and she'd be prevented from obtaining a degree elsewhere for a long time, if ever].
- Limiting contact with friends and in particular the friend she's been cheating off of who(m?) may have known about the cheating, if not actively helped: depending on the duration and extent of enforced lack of contact this is just roughly being grounded.
- Taking control over the being that killed one of your classmates and preventing your daughter from handling him: sounds downright the only sane thing to do. [without the benefit of having been around him for years, or outright reading the story of course].
- Preventing your daughter from going into a very dangerous and volatile country* to visit friends who may be "friends" purely to manipulate your country through your daughter being their diplomat: not necessarily unreasonable.
The worst part of all of this isn't even really the WAY he's going about it: he's being a real shithead about it, yes, and that's terrible... but the truly horrific thing to me is how utterly shattered Antimony is. It shows the power Anthony has over her, and how broken she is when it comes to handling her father, and how easily he can disrupt who she is and how she normally functions. *for lack of a better word. |
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Apr 6, 2015 8:23:01 GMT
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Apr 6, 2015 8:33:15 GMT
Excuse me! I'll have you know, in print, it's called libel. Hmph! |
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Post by Vilthuril on Apr 6, 2015 8:39:23 GMT
Excuse me! I'll have you know, in print, it's called libel. Hmph! Well done! You should always let people know things in print, in case you need to have evidence later that you told them. (Scanna - like the panda - eats, shoots and leaves. He apparently also refers to himself in the third person, at least in this post.  ) |
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Post by snipertom on Apr 6, 2015 8:48:19 GMT
The other thing is that by ceding Rey to the court or Anthony's control, Annie has (inadvertently) done a bad job of acting in the forest's interests. Thus she may lose her position anyway.
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Post by muningray on Apr 6, 2015 8:49:49 GMT
I agree. At this point Anthony is crossing Coyote twice at once. First, removing Annie as the forest medium, which will not please Coyote nor Ysengrim. And at the same time trying to take control of Renard. And it's not like the court has plausible deniability. He explicitly works for them now. Actually, I think Coyote is in a bit of a difficult position here. If Anthony claims his daughter is not competent to serve as medium and this news makes Coyote angry, then to anyone Anthony has convinced (remember, the court already denied her the job of court medium. They'd be leaning toward Anthony's assessment anyway), it will appear that Coyote is angry about not being able to manipulate her to do his bidding. So a better (and more appropriate) response from him would be to act delighted and amused by this revelation, and then declare that Ysengrin will get his old job back, knowing full well that this will piss off the court. But if the court is in agreement with Anthony, it's still a very weak bargaining chip, since I think they'd be willing to eat their losses with Ysengrin if it meant preventing a potential catastrophe with Annie. And on top of that, he can't really negotiate on behalf of Reynardine, since he is an agreed-upon prisoner of the court. All he can do there is issue a complaint, and even then there's no indication that being under Anthony's control would be worse for him. And since Annie has to willingly trade control of Rey to another person, the whole line of negotiation is pretty much a dead end. As far as outwitting a trickster god goes, he could do worse. Except we have a laundry list of people who do think that Annie is capable. Jones. The Donlans. Eglamore. Hell, what other higher ups at the Court do we even know about? Coyote may laugh about it, but only because he's likely to find it hilarious. "Trying to control a fire elemental? Ridiculous!".
I agree that Coyote has little in the way of direct diplomatic say in the matter. But diplomatically speaking, Rey under the control of Annie is substantially different than Rey under the control of Anthony. And while the repercussions might not be "official", they would be real. And I don't think any of the Court officials we've seen so far would expect otherwise.
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Post by ed1300 on Apr 6, 2015 8:56:54 GMT
...
Well, on the bright-side of things at least Rey doesn't have to stay with those 'mechanical fools.'
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Post by AnUpliftedCuttlefish on Apr 6, 2015 9:00:16 GMT
Ok I expected a comment about Renard, I didn't expect Annie to just acquiesce that easily. That 'Okay' has just transferred control, even if she changes her mind later. Since after only a short period in Annie's possession Renard has been acting as a father figure towards her, and in the last 2 years has been a much better father than Tony ever was. Annie should have realised this, or at least will come to realise this very soon. I have a hard time believing a lot of this chapter will stand, simply because it has stripped almost everything that defines Annie from her, and she has just meekly acquiesced. I understand that the shock from meeting her father for the first time has rendered her shocked and more compliant, I assume this is what Tony was planning on, hitting her with bad thing after bad thing then finishing with the taking away of Renard, but still. What happened to the fire? Perhaps this chapter is the turning point where Annie gathers allies and ends up leading a revolution against the court? The only way I can see this ending better is if Renard ends up doing a Hetty on Tony.Playing cruel pranks on him that cause him physical discomfort/pain? I suspect there's many out there that'd like to see Rey go all Home Alone on Anthony. |
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Post by keef on Apr 6, 2015 9:05:35 GMT
- tko; in a way the first time Tom acknowledges Annie is hurting.
- It now seems likely that the removal of her makeup left her vulnerable.
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quark
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Post by quark on Apr 6, 2015 9:06:19 GMT
God, this comic was painful to read. Annie doesn't even think of not complying. That 'Okay' has just transferred control, even if she changes her mind later. No, the transfer of custody won't happen until Annie tells Reynardine to obey her Father. Let's hope so. I read it that way too, but I could be wrong. While I agree that Reynardine was a powerful and dangerous creature who killed an innocent and was willing to kill Antimony to free himself - under Anthony's control he could be a dangerous weapon against anybody. Even Antimony. I am shaking my head here. Annie is stronger than that. She is defined by her character, and not by the people she has collected around her. I must disagree. Annie's greatest strength is making friends out of enemies. She befriended Reynardine (who is now a loyal friend and even a father figure to her... he's come a long way from trying to kill her), Ysengrin (which has to be the greater feat - he respects her, and genuinely helps her becoming a good forest medium; his mental instability notwithstanding), Coyote (he gave her his tooth!), Shadow (who's still one of the glass-eyed men), the Psychopomps (who aren't enemies, but very alien in their thinking and actions)... Of course she's strong, but her greatest strength comes from gathering powerful people around her who will stand with her no matter what - for non-enemy examples see Parley and Andrew, who would immediately use his new and fragile position of power to help her against the wishes of the court. And, you know, Kat. |
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quark
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Post by quark on Apr 6, 2015 9:21:47 GMT
Ok I expected a comment about Renard, I didn't expect Annie to just acquiesce that easily. That 'Okay' has just transferred control, even if she changes her mind later. Since after only a short period in Annie's possession Renard has been acting as a father figure towards her, and in the last 2 years has been a much better father than Tony ever was. Annie should have realised this, or at least will come to realise this very soon. I have a hard time believing a lot of this chapter will stand, simply because it has stripped almost everything that defines Annie from her, and she has just meekly acquiesced. I understand that the shock from meeting her father for the first time has rendered her shocked and more compliant, I assume this is what Tony was planning on, hitting her with bad thing after bad thing then finishing with the taking away of Renard, but still. What happened to the fire? Perhaps this chapter is the turning point where Annie gathers allies and ends up leading a revolution against the court? The only way I can see this ending better is if Renard ends up doing a Hetty on Tony.Playing cruel pranks on him that cause him physical discomfort/pain? I suspect there's many out there that'd like to see Rey go all Home Alone on Anthony. Yes, but Hetty only was able to be evil because her 'owner' didn't know about her. Anthony is smart, he'd spot all loopholes immediately. |
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Post by AnUpliftedCuttlefish on Apr 6, 2015 9:29:49 GMT
... Well, on the bright-side of things at least Rey doesn't have to stay with those 'mechanical fools.' Heh, I don't know what would be more of a setup for an Odd Couple-esque sitcom - Rey and the FriendsBots, or Rey and Anthony. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 6, 2015 9:35:45 GMT
Playing cruel pranks on him that cause him physical discomfort/pain? I suspect there's many out there that'd like to see Rey go all Home Alone on Anthony. Yes, but Hetty only was able to be evil because her 'owner' didn't know about her. Anthony is smart, he'd spot all loopholes immediately. With no patience for things etheric he would simply order Renard into a box or other confinement and then order him to remain a toy and never move or speak again. And it may well be ownership has already passed. But for future reference, it was formsprung that stealing (or by extension) taking by force does break ownership. |
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Post by Vilthuril on Apr 6, 2015 9:50:10 GMT
God, this comic was painful to read. Annie doesn't even think of not complying. I am shaking my head here. Annie is stronger than that. She is defined by her character, and not by the people she has collected around her. I must disagree. Annie's greatest strength is making friends out of enemies. She befriended Reynardine (who is now a loyal friend and even a father figure to her... he's come a long way from trying to kill her), Ysengrin (which has to be the greater feat - he respects her, and genuinely helps her becoming a good forest medium; his mental instability notwithstanding), Coyote (he gave her his tooth!), Shadow (who's still one of the glass-eyed men), the Psychopomps (who aren't enemies, but very alien in their thinking and actions)... Of course she's strong, but her greatest strength comes from gathering powerful people around her who will stand with her no matter what - for non-enemy examples see Parley and Andrew, who would immediately use his new and fragile position of power to help her against the wishes of the court. And, you know, Kat. Interesting juxtaposition of a part of the worldview[*] espoused notably by Ayn Rand as well as a number of prominent, current political groups/organizations or important factions within them, with the worldview espoused by most other philosophies and religions. Be it said, the former position is consistent with much of what Refugee has written before and seems to me to clarify where he is coming from, though not saying it completely defines his position[**]. Specifically, the belief that the key (in the writing of Ayn Rand herself, the only) important parts of a person are their individual thoughts and will and strength, and the only important interaction of a person with the outside world or sign of a person's value is the expression of those thoughts, through their will and strength (for Rand, regardless of others' existence, thoughts, needs or desires). One who depends on others for anything is weak, unworthy (and for Rand herself, disgusting). Even more disgusting are any people such as concerned friends, child welfare authorities, governments in general and other meddlers, who try to mediate, control or support an individual. As I mention above, this is (for Rand, explicitly) rejecting various ideas such as 'The Golden Rule' and the obligation to give charity. Most other philosophical and religious positions and professional trainings/ethics codes, of course, at least to some degree take the other position, which is that the individual and their thoughts and views are somewhat to very important but that they are not enough, that people are responsible for each other, that there should be limits on person A's treatment of person B other than the latter's individual ability to fight back, and that most people - children especially - need other supports and protections. Of course, some religions (they tend to be considered cults) and political philosophies/organizations (totalitarian states and movements) take it completely the other direction and hold that the individual is nothing... [*Note that by 'worldview' I mean not only 'what a person believes' but more broadly 'the way a person perceives things.'] [**For one thing, a true Randite would as I understand it deny any value, authority or responsibility in the parental role and any other importance of the parent-child relationship, whereas Refugee clearly considers Anthony's inherent authority as Antimony's biological father to overwhelm almost if not all other considerations and be beyond any question except that presented by Antimony's individual will and strength. ] |
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Post by snipertom on Apr 6, 2015 10:20:41 GMT
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Post by calpal on Apr 6, 2015 10:22:38 GMT
... whaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!
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Post by attiem on Apr 6, 2015 10:44:20 GMT
God I have been reading this for a long time but had to join for this chapter, its really hitting close to home.
Before this I didn't understand why Annie apparently loved him so much. But now I understand perfectly, every single one of her reactions, even if mine was more on the rage than stoic side, he is my father. Mine also spent a good amount of my childhood away and when he was there he controlled everything, but even like that every little attention and time feels like a treat that is why she was so giddy when he asked her to stay behind.
I suppose is hard to understand how such behavior doesn't register as abuse, but it doesn't, at least it didn't for me for years, it was just the way it was and I was grateful for it, control means he cares, he is just doing things for your own good.
And no, for those asking for a fiery explosion, you just don't say "no". My father was also a scientific and I was artfully inclined, so a lot of disappointment. When I was 10 I had to get "don't even think you are going to study to be a writer, its not happening" chat, and I just nodded my head
It took me years to even think of standing up for myself, and even now I am 27 and just a hint of a frown or a thoughtful face is more than enough to send shivers down my spine. And yes even to this day I follow orders to the T most of the time. I suppose in web-comic world it will be easier to cut those strings, or harder
I just wanted to put this out there, I don't know if Tom himself had some similar experiences, but this is masterfully done, how he acts, how she loves him unconditionally, it all makes the perfect sense to me, I would had acted the same in her shoes, up to that strange sense of weightlessness and leaving the planet called dissociation.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Apr 6, 2015 10:54:18 GMT
1. I don't think Reynard is Anthony's ultimate objective. I think he is still trying to excise the fire elemental and everything he has done (including taking Rey) is meant to break Annie and make her submit to the process that was stopped in Divine. Maybe he is doing it to save Annie, because of a promise to Surma, or because he is obsessed with finishing the task. I am leaning more to it now being an obsession. 2. I wonder if Anthony essentially did the same thing to Surma... Isolated her from the forest and all her friends so he could have complete control over her. Then tried to excise the fire elemental from her (without success). 3. Maybe Annie already set Rey free and Anthony is in for a surprise.* Annie already told Rey that she would set him free to go back to the forest. Rey could have been continuing to live in the plushie so the Court wouldn't know about his freedom and to be with Annie. This could be Rey's chance to truly take Anthony's place as Annie's father. * Wishful thinking 4. Space, space, gotta go to space. SPAAACE! ** ** Wouldn't it be nice to hear Anthony saying Wheatley's apology |
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Post by stef1987 on Apr 6, 2015 11:02:03 GMT
I'm pretty sure all of this going to be 'canceled' soon (for lack of a better word),
but I have no idea how, or why this is all happening
perhaps a dream?
but I think Tom has a more original explanation for this
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