|
|
Post by The Anarch on Mar 7, 2014 18:41:51 GMT
Could it be that what actually constitutes being a man or a woman gender-wise has changed over time while the general social conceptions of those genders haven't quite kept up? he asked knowing full well that the answer is yes, that is exactly what has happened |
|
|
|
Post by snipertom on Mar 7, 2014 18:47:08 GMT
Sometimes I think what hasn't changed is what's reported in the media as opposed to what people actually do.
Like that time in the mid-late 90s when Time Magazine was telling me all about how bisexuals have a 'primary' partner (usually opposite gender spouse) and sleep with 'secondary' same sex partners on the side.
I swear after reading that when I was 12 the idea of being bisexual was so confusing and fucked up that it was far scarier than the idea of being gay because at least I understood what 'a gay' was (although not how they had sex, at least not until I was 13 haha)
|
|
|
|
Post by warrl on Mar 7, 2014 20:46:21 GMT
All those terms, in my opinion, come about because of various not-necessarily-mutually-compatible attempts to create a linear scale of descriptions of phenomena that occur in several dimensions.
I think we could get by comfortably with no more than five terms (equivalent to male, female, bi/mixed, none, and don't-care)... on each of the following dimensions (and I may overlook some):
* Your genetic gender as revealed by examination of your DNA
* Your physical gender as it would be revealed by external examination of your naked body
* Your physical gender at birth (excluding birth defects corrected at an early age before they affected psychological development)
* How you see yourself
* How you portray yourself
* How you wish others to see you
* The above categories, except referring to people you're romantically attracted to rather than to you
* The same, except referring to people you're sexually attracted to rather than you
That's 18 dimensions. 5^18 is one heck of a lot of possible combinations... although some dimensions don't logically get all five possibilities.
|
|
|
|
Post by admiralcheez on Mar 7, 2014 20:57:39 GMT
So anyway about this webcomic I wonder if we can find out more information on this Steadman person. More specifically, what does Steadman identify as? |
|
|
|
Post by Gulby on Mar 7, 2014 21:13:46 GMT
I wish I could write more fluently how I feel/what is my opinion about myself in that specific domain, but as I am not able to do so, I'll just shamefully quote Eyemyself again and just modify what is different. That means that all that isn't crossed or added, is exactly what I feel like. Oh I can be very girly when the mood strikes me! Don't get me wrong, however, I am extremely comfortable in ratty cargo pants, an A-line tank, and a flannel shirt and most days I'd rather be two days into a back woods hike than sporting heels out on the town. (Most days, but not every day.) Here I have to add that I love heels because of a slight foot fetish, but I don't wear any since I have very VERY VEEEERYYYYY sensitive feet. But I would metaphorically kill for a pair of Irregular Choice's Shoes.However, as a female identified female I get push-back (?) in many settings because: * I am outspoken, opinionated, and tend to speak with an air of authority * I don't equate sex with love AND I can make sex without feeling in love, and be in love without being sexually attracted.* I am way more likely to oogle (?) pretty women then most men I know * I am physically stronger than is generally expected I finished a tiler training in july and am able to lift 25 kg bags without a single doubt. Not now, because pregnancy is a pain in the neck for that. But still.* I am stubborn to the point of stupidity about doing things for myself * Career is a bigger priority for me than romance But that certainly doesn't mean that romance is everything in my life. Life is the most important. If that means that I should be alone, then let it be ! Hopefully, it isn't the case for the moment.* Don't want kids I'm pregnant and want (at least) a child since I'm 16.* Do want adventure in my life, as often as possible * Domestically challenged and disorganized - clean enough is clean enough unless company is coming * Drive stick shift (?)Etc... Of course I am kind of of the opinion that almost everyone is really gender non-conforming from society's standpoint. At least a little bit. It's just not everyone has realized it yet. And : * I don't shave my legs unless I'm in a social situation that expect me to be shaved (beach, swimming pool, essentially) * I don't like to wear dresses or skirts even if I have some. I usually wear them above pants.  * I LOVE to tinker (?) (craft things, plant nails, cut wood planks, make stuff with tools, lot of tools, I love hardware shops) * I don't like to cook, and I can merely do steaks, pastas and potatoes. And fat things. And desserts. I love doing chocolate cakes. That always look like nothing but are tasty. So in an every day-basis, it's my spouse that do the cooking. And he do it very well, much much better than me. And quite amusingly, he doesn't really like to tinker (?). Couple balance ! \o/ In the other hand, I have arachnophobia, I love to knit and sew, I am very bad with maths. But most important of all, I consider all these caracteristics to be individual differences, and not man/woman differences. I don't identify as a woman or womyn or girl or any other gender term, but the fact is I am biologically a female human (as you would say a female cat or a female bonobo) : I have external and internal female attributes, fully functional, and if I was genetically tested, I'm pretty sure I would be XX. And in my native language, there is no neutral pronouns, so I stick with the female ones, because I don't identify as a male, neither as a woman nor a man. Not sure it's clearer after all that, but I love to talk about myself and my life, and I'm sorry for that, and worst : I know by experience that it usually turn back against me (?). But, hey, who cares. |
|
|
|
Post by keef on Mar 7, 2014 22:02:38 GMT
You start your list with Male, followed by Female, all this years of feminism wasted... snipertom this poll shows International Women's Day is still necessary. But seriously I'm grateful all this choice wasn't around when I was discovering my identity, growing up was confusing enough without it. But most important of all, I consider all these caracteristics to be individual differences, and not man/woman differences. I'm not sure, at the moment political correctness from both political sides has an adverse effect on the reliability of research I'm afraid, and I do think a lot of stereotypes are cultural, but there are probably some traits that are found more at the female or male end of the spectrum. (I am a great cook by the way, I love tinkering and I am not interested in cars sports or career). |
|
|
|
Post by snipertom on Mar 7, 2014 22:14:00 GMT
You start your list with Male, followed by Female, all this years of feminism wasted... snipertom this poll shows International Women's Day is still necessary. But seriously I'm grateful all this choice wasn't around when I was discovering my identity, growing up was confusing enough without it. But most important of all, I consider all these caracteristics to be individual differences, and not man/woman differences. I'm not sure, at the moment political correctness from both political sides has an adverse effect on the reliability of research I'm afraid, and I do think a lot of stereotypes are cultural, but there are probably some traits that are found more at the female or male end of the spectrum. (I am a great cook by the way, I love tinkering and I am not interested in cars sports or career). all except two of the neurocognitive 'differences' found between males and females in humans don't exist. males are slightly better at spacial tasks, females slighlty better at language. That's it. Behaviour-wise and culture aside, it'd be interesting to find out *exactly* what the biological differences actually are. I'm sure there are *some* but probably far less than we think. Still, it will always be a spectrum, with a great deal of overlap. there will always be manly girls and girly men. I don't think political correctness is the problem in science of gender. I think old-fashioned ideas and inertia and lack of creativity in designing studies and theory is. |
|
|
|
Post by eyemyself on Mar 7, 2014 23:08:45 GMT
You start your list with Male, followed by Female, all this years of feminism wasted... snipertom this poll shows International Women's Day is still necessary. But seriously I'm grateful all this choice wasn't around when I was discovering my identity, growing up was confusing enough without it. I'm not sure, at the moment political correctness from both political sides has an adverse effect on the reliability of research I'm afraid, and I do think a lot of stereotypes are cultural, but there are probably some traits that are found more at the female or male end of the spectrum. (I am a great cook by the way, I love tinkering and I am not interested in cars sports or career). all except two of the neurocognitive 'differences' found between males and females in humans don't exist. males are slightly better at spacial tasks, females slighlty better at language. That's it. Behaviour-wise and culture aside, it'd be interesting to find out *exactly* what the biological differences actually are. I'm sure there are *some* but probably far less than we think. Still, it will always be a spectrum, with a great deal of overlap. there will always be manly girls and girly men. I don't think political correctness is the problem in science of gender. I think old-fashioned ideas and inertia and lack of creativity in designing studies and theory is. As I recall, statistically speaking even with language and spatial tasks there is far more variance within a given gender in any given trait than there is between the average abilities of males and females. |
|
|
|
Post by keef on Mar 8, 2014 0:10:16 GMT
I do think a lot of stereotypes are cultural, but there are probably some traits that are found more at the female or male end of the spectrum. all except two of the neurocognitive 'differences' found between males and females in humans don't exist. males are slightly better at spacial tasks, females slighlty better at language. That's it. Behaviour-wise and culture aside, it'd be interesting to find out *exactly* what the biological differences actually are. I'm sure there are *some* but probably far less than we think. Still, it will always be a spectrum, with a great deal of overlap. there will always be manly girls and girly men. Indeed, we seem to agree here. Except I lost faith in the word *exactly*. Most differences to be discovered are probably related to pregnancy, childbirth and paternity. But you never know, having an extremely vulnerable spot between your legs might have had some effect on the male brain. at the moment political correctness from both political sides has an adverse effect on the reliability of research I'm afraid, I don't think political correctness is the problem in science of gender. I think old-fashioned ideas and inertia and lack of creativity in designing studies and theory is. I think you and I have a different feeling about the term political correctness. It is usually asociated with the fear of being accused of sexism, racism and so on, but to me it is every form of non-scientific influence on researchers, whether it is for fear of loosing funding, or for fear of alienating oneself from religion, party, family or friends. I shouldn't have used the term here. |
|
|
|
Post by sapientcoffee on Mar 8, 2014 0:23:26 GMT
Sometimes I think what hasn't changed is what's reported in the media as opposed to what people actually do. I remember being surprised by a murder mystery show that involved a dominatrix and there was very, very little "teehee, BDSM" compared to other shows I'd seen that seemed to use it as a way to pull in viewers. (I'm looking at you, CSI) Though, yeah, media definitely likes to pull WHAT ARE YOUR NEIGHBORS AND CHILDREN UP TO?! I wish it didn't work so well. |
|
|
|
Post by snipertom on Mar 8, 2014 8:57:50 GMT
Sometimes I think what hasn't changed is what's reported in the media as opposed to what people actually do. I remember being surprised by a murder mystery show that involved a dominatrix and there was very, very little "teehee, BDSM" compared to other shows I'd seen that seemed to use it as a way to pull in viewers. (I'm looking at you, CSI) Though, yeah, media definitely likes to pull WHAT ARE YOUR NEIGHBORS AND CHILDREN UP TO?! I wish it didn't work so well. Who knows, they could be polyamorous bdsm bisexual swingers ! AND MURDERERS |
|
|
|
Post by lordofpotatoes on Mar 8, 2014 10:18:49 GMT
Where is the I dont know and I dont care option? If you're gonna be politically correct you've gotta include the ones who aren't politically correct too. =P
EDIT: Maybe add a potato option if someone identifies as silly? Just maybe...
|
|
|
|
Post by snipertom on Mar 8, 2014 17:48:10 GMT
Where is the I dont know and I dont care option? If you're gonna be politically correct you've gotta include the ones who aren't politically correct too. =P EDIT: Maybe add a potato option if someone identifies as silly? Just maybe... There's an 'other', 'gender questioning' and 'neither male nor female' option. HOWEVER: Something that highly irritates me about the facebook options is that you can't just delete your gender and have it blank. "Don't know and don't care" = win! |
|
|
|
Post by Gotolei on Mar 8, 2014 23:32:03 GMT
Where is the I dont know and I dont care option? If you're gonna be politically correct you've gotta include the ones who aren't politically correct too. =P EDIT: Maybe add a potato option if someone identifies as silly? Just maybe... Hm..dolphin? |
|
|
|
Post by wombat on Mar 9, 2014 3:47:16 GMT
I prefer to call myself a wombat, but it's not in the poll, DISCRIMINATION Ahem. Wombats are pretty badass. AAAY! *insert the Fonz here* |
|
|
|
Post by freeformline on Mar 9, 2014 4:27:46 GMT
But most important of all, I consider all these caracteristics to be individual differences, and not man/woman differences. This I like. I don't like anyone to feel that they can't explore their individual traits because of stereotypes about their inherent properties (genetics, conditions of birth, etc.). I think we'd be a much more productive species if we were a little less prone to resisting insignificant deviations from the mean. The gender-related issue that I'm most passionate about is that of gender-based pressures related to choosing academic, professional, or otherwise productive tracks. Examples are people discouraging or over-encouraging women from following technical tracks or the Boy Scouts of America forbidding openly gay leaders. Really any time someone is forced or unfairly pressured into following a path that does not maximize their social contributions, I get riled up. Of course, I get riled up by a lot of things due to my youth and idealism, but I think this is one of the issues that I'll remain passionate about throughout my life. |
|
|
|
Post by Gulby on Mar 9, 2014 10:47:47 GMT
(And for the ones who don't see the link with the webcomic, there it is for me : I consider myself, physically and mentally, as a mix between Kat, Zimmy and Parley ! WOOOOOT ! \o/ (And Red, a little bit.))
|
|
|
|
Post by eyemyself on Mar 9, 2014 13:52:33 GMT
Ha! Gulby I identify most with Zimmy (whose identity reads something along the lines of "What?! I don't even... Back up or I will cut you." to me) Coyote (whose identity is clearly "Hello Children, who is ready to play! to me) and Jones. |
|
|
|
Post by Daedalus on Mar 9, 2014 20:26:05 GMT
Ha! Gulby I identify most with Zimmy (whose identity reads something along the lines of "What?! I don't even... Back up or I will cut you." to me) Coyote (whose identity is clearly "Hello Children, who is ready to play! to me) and Jones. I'm...not quite sure Coyote's games are healthy for one's sanity. |
|
|
|
Post by Daedalus on Mar 9, 2014 22:13:54 GMT
One interesting thing, at least from the statistics above:
Assuming that the responses above come from approximately-equal numbers of biologically-female and biologically-male people, it seems that the male (biological) gender is less disposed to choose answers other than their biological sex...huh
And, to contribute, I am biologically male and I think of myself that way as well, though it's not a very large deal to me.
|
|
|
|
Post by CoyoteReborn on Mar 9, 2014 22:17:59 GMT
Why is 'gender-bender' not an option here? Ha! Gulby I identify most with Zimmy (whose identity reads something along the lines of "What?! I don't even... Back up or I will cut you." to me) Coyote (whose identity is clearly "Hello Children, who is ready to play! to me) and Jones. I'm...not quite sure Coyote's games are healthy for one's sanity. Hide and seek is my favorite. I hide your memories, and you seek them. Nobody ever wants to play with me! (pout) |
|
|
|
Post by fwip on Mar 10, 2014 3:24:44 GMT
"Womyn" Is that like, Anwyn or something?  I wonder at what point does facebook just set up an input box for gender. just like real women, only with less men I prefer to call myself a wombat, but it's not in the poll, DISCRIMINATION Crater, can I put that in my sig? |
|
|
|
Post by The Anarch on Mar 10, 2014 3:53:45 GMT
Hide and seek is my favorite. I hide your memories, and you seek them. Nobody ever want to play with me! (pout) You should probably let them keep the memory that they're playing the game at the very least! |
|
|
|
Post by jasmijn on Mar 10, 2014 8:23:55 GMT
Assuming that the responses above come from approximately-equal numbers of biologically-female and biologically-male people, it seems that the male (biological) gender is less disposed to choose answers other than their biological sex...huh Twice the number of people selected male-related answers as did female-related answers (I left out agender and genderfluid). But there's still an interesting difference. |
|
|
|
Post by eyemyself on Mar 10, 2014 13:40:10 GMT
agasa, you tell your story wonderfully! There is absolutely nothing wrong with either gender being a pretty little fairy. The world is an incredibly complex place. There is room for so much more beauty and wonder in it when we move beyond binary thinking.
|
|
|
|
Post by Señor Goose on Mar 10, 2014 18:32:30 GMT
* I will quote mastergoose for my sexual orientation: I use queer rather than bi-sexual because I don't ascribe to the idea of a gender binary and for me the gender of the person I am attracted to have almost no bearing on whether or not I am attracted to them. (Other physical attributes do and intellectual attributes certainly pay a HUGE part in attraction for me. I've toyed with the term sapio-sexual but it just doesn't really feel like it fits. By the way, mastergoose, your post is brilliant. That's... Thanks, dude, but I didn't say that. I have no idea who you're quoting. That said, I might as well play. Per my sexual identity, I'll say 'male' because, well, that's the line of best fit. I'm not exactly the image of masculinity (see Bruce Willis, Daniel Craig, etc), but if you think that not being ripped and badass makes you a woman, then wow. Sexuality is a bit... Less straightforward. For all intents and circumstances, I call myself straight, but I feel like there are definitely exceptions. Nothing we'd encounter in anyone's day-to-day life, but it warrants interruption. |
|
|
|
Post by eyemyself on Mar 10, 2014 19:05:47 GMT
Señor Goose He was quoting me responding to your question about the word queer. I was amused about having myself quoted back to myself as attributed to someone else so I didn't correct it.
|
|
|
|
Post by freeformline on Mar 10, 2014 19:48:26 GMT
It's a shame we can't choose what we're born with; a big part of this is that i absolutely want a family, with children, and any form of transitioning would be a major obstacle in that... so, instead, i will be the best man i can imagine, and that doesn't mean being "manly" to me. Good on you. Being a good person certainly does not require perfect adherence to gender stereotypes, and, I think, adherence to any stereotype is pretty much a guarantee that you will not be the best person you can be, since every stereotype has some negative attributes. Classic manliness has many aspects, but I would definitely agree that manliness is not necessary to be a good friend, citizen, parent, or family member. Quite frankly, I think anyone who tells you that it is is silly, foolish, or worse. Live to do good and improve the lives of others and you'll be a good [pronoun], whatever you may be. I'd like to see that come back. I think the stigma against nudity (partial or otherwise) in western nations is a little silly. Of course, there are other regions (I'm looking at you, middle eastern dictatorships and theocracies) where it's worse. It would be nice to walk around in very little clothing without thinking that I look like a hooligan, and women (and all the other pronouns, while I'm at it) should be able to do the same. Also, I think we need to find some better universal pronouns for the English language. Discussing people subscribing to anything other than the traditional male and female identities is kind of a hassle with the vocabulary we have now. Yet another reason why I prefer ASL over English. |
|
|
|
Post by freeformline on Mar 10, 2014 20:13:05 GMT
One interesting thing, at least from the statistics above: Assuming that the responses above come from approximately-equal numbers of biologically-female and biologically-male people, it seems that the male (biological) gender is less disposed to choose answers other than their biological sex...huh If I recall my high school psychology coursework correctly, there is generally a greater variation in gender and sexuality among biological females (people who have at least one on-board baby printer) than among biological males (people who carry the device drivers), but I don't recall the exact statistics and cannot guarantee the validity of the studies that produced them. In case I haven't mentioned it, I am young and very male. I would like everyone to be decent to each other regardless of gender/race/appearance/flavor and focus on more important things, like building space colonies and sustainable resource systems. Basically, I think gender identity and sexuality should be societal non-issues, and as long as there are people trying to use them as a reason for fussing at or hurting others, I will be there to tell them to get over themselves and let people live their own lives. |
|
chaosvii
Junior Member
I absolutely did not expect this!
Posts: 84 
|
Post by chaosvii on Mar 10, 2014 22:54:55 GMT
I seriously assumed that I could have clicked Male and continued down the list to Cis Male & Cis Man & Cisgender male & Cisgender man.
I'm of the understanding that I'm also Gender Nonconforming, but then again I don't personally know anyone who is gender conforming aside from my grandfather and my uncle (both on my mother's side of the family). Like I may have met some people who are such, but there's pretty much always a noticeable diverging away from the nebulous & evolving set of expectations for the masculine/feminine/androgynous categories.
|
|
