The gender identity and biological sex thread!

[snipertom]

I must admit that I find Facebook's selection scheme for gender identity:

• A good step in the right direction
• Probably just a way to collect marketing data on 'queers'
• Annoying because you have to guess what options exist for their autocompletion
• Annoying because you can't just put in an actual honest-to-god custom entry
• Annoying because you can't actually not fill out your gender identity (I leave my relationship status blank for example)
• Annoying because most of these terms are slight rewordings of each other

HOWEVER I think it's probably a good launching point to talk about both gender identity and biological sex.

I'm just going to kick things off with an explanation of biological sex. If you are squeamish about talking about genitals and hormones in a biomedical fashion, TURN BACK!

Biological sex sounds easy but isn't just a simple thing.

Gonads (ovaries, testicles), external and internal genitalia (vulva, clitoris, vagina, penis, prostate) are two parts of physical sex. Gonads start life partially as part of the middle layer of the 3 early layers in the embryo (the mesoderm) with a few cells from the 2nd of 3 primitive kidney-like structures (the mesonephros). The primitive gonads can develop into either ovaries or testicles, or, very rarely, organs that have a mixture of both, or some undifferentiated components (e.g. ovotestis; true hermaphroditism). Life requires at least one X chromosome. People with one sex chromosome only (XO, Turner's Syndrome) develop as infertile females essentially; the 'default' state is to develop as a female and the SRY coding area on the Y chromosome is what causes development of testes and male genitalia.

Similarly to how ovaries and testicles are the female and male counterparts of each other, the penis and the clitoris are counterparts, the scrotal skin and labia majora (extenal labia) are counterparts. There's some equivalent to prostatic tissue that exists within the vagina, the Skene's gland which may or may not be the 'G-spot'. In male foetal development, the primitive vagina and labia fuse to form the perineum, which is why there is a ridge down the middle of the perineum between penis and anus.

Development of the genitalia is also driven by hormonal conditions of the foetus. In the male foetus, testosterone and the related hormone 5-alpha dihydrotestosterone (DHT) promote the development of male genitalia while Müllerian inhibiting substance causes regression of the Müllerian ducts that would otherwise grow into fallopian tubes, uterus, cervix and upper vagina. The foetus itself creates sex hormones from its developing gonads as well as some contribution from the maternal blood supply. Males and females at any stage of development including adulthood will always create both oestrogens and androgens but in varying quantities and ratios. There are also genetic conditions where SRY is missing or where androgens don't work or there are increased androgens or any number of things. So you can have 'XY females' (XY gonadal dysgenesis- the immature gonads are highly likely to become cancerous later in life and are usually removed) and what may appear to be 'XX males' (most commonly, congential adrenal hyperplasia where the adrenal glands overproduce hormones).

Then of course, there is the fact that reproductive system congential anomalies are by far and large the most common chromosomal or physical congenital anomaly. In fact it's something like 1:100, and mainly in males. Some of it is stuff like micropenis or hypospadias or clitoromegaly. Some of it is more complex anomalies like cloacal abnormalities where like in reptiles, the female urogenital tract and anus end all in one hole. In the more complex disorders it's more common to have other physical anomalies or syndromes. One of the reasons for the high- and increasing- rate of reproductive system anomalies (also found in all other species on earth) is due to increased pollutants containing 'oestrogen-like compounds'. Most of it is industrial waste. There's some hypothesised contribution from the urine of women on the pill but honestly I think that is bogus.

In addition, chromosomal sex has options other than XO, XX and XY. Basically, X chromosome encodes many genes necessary for life. There is almost complete deactivation of any extra X chromosomes so that, for example, females won't just die from having 2 sets of those same genes and overexpressing them. As a result, anyone who has more than 1 X chromosome is referred to as a 'mosaic'- some of their cells express one X, some express the other, and ... if you have multiple X some express those other ones. You can have any number of extra X's. XXY, XXX are not all that uncommon. XXY is Klinefelter's syndrome which results in tall, thin, infertile and somewhat feminised males. XXX causes a phenotype similar to XX but with lower fertility. XYY also exists and is associated at times with slightly heightened aggression and sometimes mild intellectual disability. The more sex chromosomes you have the less fertile you are and the more likely to have intellectual impairment. In addition XO, XXY, XYY etc are associated with physical anomalies (like webbed neck and aortic problems in XO) that are not related to sexual differentiation or gender.

Sexual development clearly isn't over the moment you're born. Boys and girls have pretty much identical hormonal states until puberty. It's only at puberty that they start expressing high enough levels of sex hormones (oestrogens and androgens) that you really get major differences. The hypothalamus sends signals to the pituitary gland which signals the gonads to GET INTO ACTION! And this is what causes 'secondary sexual characteristics' like breasts, pubic & armpit hair, penis enlargement - the Tanner stages of puberty are based on evaluating these. So you get changes at this time as well and can get disorders and variations at this point too.

As adults there are still other things which will affect hormone levels. PCOS in females causes extra androgen levels. Obesity can cause PCOS. Obesity can also cause feminisation in males sometimes. Liver failure can cause reduced conversion of oestrogen to testosterone in males too. People sometimes take medications that can induce hormonal changes too- sometimes for sex reassignment, but more commonly for contraception, to treat or prevent cancers, because of menopause or other things.

Hormonal state can sometimes affect gender orientation too. But for reasons we don't fully understand, sometimes if someone has their sex reassigned as a baby and hormone treatment given, they have the gender identity of their chromosomal or original biological sex, and sometimes they have the opposite. This can lead to disastrous consequences.

And I haven't even talked really about fertility or how gametes (sperm and eggs) form!

So biological sex is very complicated. It's not simple at all. There are many different states that could be considered 'intersex' (hermaphroditism is a medical word and is not at all the preferred term for people who are intersex). Intersex people have various gender identities and it is not always obvious what it would be just by guessing!

[eyemyself]

Add bullet point because in addition to not being able to just fill in my own words I can't pick just one! Also, where are the tongue in cheek responses? This list is way too serious.

Custom tongue-in-cheek answer: my gender identity is Joy (my name)
Serious answer: Gender Non-conforming Female Identified Cisgender Female (I have put way too much thought into this stuff over the years.)
Alternate tongue-in-cheek response: I am not a cabbage.

[freeformline]

I thought I was at least mildly knowledgeable about non-standard gender identities, but I clearly am not, judging by the number of terms in that list with which I am unfamiliar. In order to save me the effort of opening Google in a new tab, could you explain to me what the prefix cis means in this case? I went and joined a group for supporting LGBTQ students at my school, so I figure I should be able to discuss these terms with at least a little intelligence.

Also, the writer in me is being bothered that you never explicitly stated the purpose of this thread, but I think I can let that slide.

[eightyfour]

I'm sorry to play party pooper, but I really don't think a poll where multiple options mean exactly the same thing makes much sense. In the best case it'll only confuse people and stop them from voting, in the worst case you get seriously skewed results.

[The Anarch]

Mar 6, 2014 23:30:34 GMT eightyfour said:

I'm sorry to play party pooper, but I really don't think a poll where multiple options mean exactly the same thing makes much sense. In the best case it'll only confuse people and stop them from voting, in the worst case you get seriously skewed results.

Mar 6, 2014 16:20:29 GMT snipertom said:

I must admit that I find Facebook's selection scheme for gender identity:
[...]

• Annoying because most of these terms are slight rewordings of each other

HOWEVER I think it's probably a good launching point to talk about both gender identity and biological sex.

[Señor Goose]

Okay, what is the difference between 'Male', 'Cis Male', 'Cis Man', 'Cisgendered Male', and 'Cisgendered Man'? Is there a difference? Hooray for needless redundancy!

[csj]

Personally, I prefer to focus on being a human being. Gender identification has little attraction to me, other than it helping me to understand others.

Pun intended.

[Gotolei]

"Womyn"
Is that like, Anwyn or something?

I wonder at what point does facebook just set up an input box for gender.

[GK Sierra]

*checks male*

Well that was easy. Being a white middle class dude saves me from having to tick a lot of boxes. (Checking your privilege every five minutes gets old, though)

Also, I am sincerely dubious about the necessity and usefulness of the vast majority of these designations. A great many of them seem to either describe the same thing, or have no appreciable difference between the definitions.

[sotha]

It has way too many similar/identical options as a single poll. However, I suppose it works well enough on Facebook, when each person only displays a single result, and thus is comes down to choice of wording. They should do something similar for relationships perhaps.

[Daedalus]

Eh, I have no problem with more options to allow more specific choice for people.

Obviously a text-based input box would be better, but I suspect that Proboards wouldn't allow it.

(Though the statistician in me is very sad that there will not be significant data points for most of those because the answers will be spread out among similar categories...)

[philman]

Well I always thought I was male but looking at the number of options there... I just don't know anymore!

For those asking, I think Cis- means you mentally believe yourself to be the same gender as the body you were born in, whereas Trans- means that mentally you are a different gender. I am uncertain though whether, for example, if you were born into a male body but are mentally female whether that would make you trans-male or trans-female. I would assume the latter as people usually wish to be referred to as their mental gender, right?

I tried starting to read your post snipergirl, but you go into a lot of genetics, as far as I Was aware the people with varying numbers of X/Y chromosomes make up the minority of those considered to be some form of trans-, most trans- people have the 'normal' number of chromosomes, just the wrong combination compared to what their mind tells them they are.

I apologise for any messing up of sensitive words in this post, I am not well versed in the language of the trans- community, I only know what I have seen others talking about, and my usages of some specific words may be wrong.

[Gulby]

I voted "Other" because if I quickly identify myself, it is as "human being". But if I want to develop, that gives me approximately the same definition as Eyemyself :

eyemyself said:

Serious answer: Gender Non-conforming Female Identified Cisgender Female

Or something like that. With a bit of boyish identification somewhere. But biologically and pronuns-ly, and physically, I am a female human being.

[feraldog]

Mar 6, 2014 16:20:29 GMT snipertom said:

As adults there are still other things which will affect hormone levels. PCOS in females causes extra androgen levels. Obesity can cause PCOS.

As a woman with PCOS I would like to point out that the reverse is true as well. PCOS can cause obesity in females who were previously healthy (it's not fun when your thyroid and ovaries both decide they don't need to work anymore).

[jasmijn]

Oh, by the way, I checked "Cis Man" because there was no option for "Man[/url". The "cis" part isn't really that strong a part of my identity, but I really dislike the words "male" and "female" when referring to humans. This because those words facilitate seeing people as animals or objects. Most of the time that doesn't happen, but sometimes you read things on reddit by some super misogynistic losers, who see the world in two categories: "men" and "females" (GRSM do not fit in their worldview). They're pretty gross.

[snipertom]

Mar 7, 2014 9:12:09 GMT feraldog said:

Mar 6, 2014 16:20:29 GMT snipertom said:

As adults there are still other things which will affect hormone levels. PCOS in females causes extra androgen levels. Obesity can cause PCOS.

As a woman with PCOS I would like to point out that the reverse is true as well. PCOS can cause obesity in females who were previously healthy (it's not fun when your thyroid and ovaries both decide they don't need to work anymore).

Oh me too. I need to alter the above post haha. It's a horrible vicious circle that I'm sure you and I are both not fond of

[eyemyself]

Mar 7, 2014 8:51:14 GMT Gulby said:

I voted "Other" because if I quickly identify myself, it is as "human being". But if I want to develop, that gives me approximately the same definition as Eyemyself :

eyemyself said:

Serious answer: Gender Non-conforming Female Identified Cisgender Female

Or something like that. With a bit of boyish identification somewhere. But biologically and pronuns-ly, and physically, I am a female human being.

Gender Non-conforming Female Identified Cisgendered Females of the forum unite! (Because we are awesome! Then again, so is everyone else! This is the best corner of the internet! Woo! Ok, I am done with the love-fest. For now.)

Mar 7, 2014 0:45:21 GMT Señor Goose said:

Okay, what is the difference between 'Male', 'Cis Male', 'Cis Man', 'Cisgendered Male', and 'Cisgendered Man'? Is there a difference? Hooray for needless redundancy!

I suspect the answer to this question would depend on who you ask... but for those who identify specifically with one of these categories and not with the others because they do see a difference it is probably important for them that they are able to make a distinction? Maybe?

Mar 7, 2014 12:08:12 GMT jasmijn said:

Oh, by the way, I checked "Cis Man" because there was no option for "Man[/url". The "cis" part isn't really that strong a part of my identity, but I really dislike the words "male" and "female" when referring to humans. This because those words facilitate seeing people as animals or objects. Most of the time that doesn't happen, but sometimes you read things on reddit by some super misogynistic losers, who see the world in two categories: "men" and "females" (GRSM do not fit in their worldview). They're pretty gross.

You make some really interesting points. I've been fortunate to never come across the kinds of people who think in these terms. I've long had a personal preference for female rather than woman, (Womyn is a hold over from Radical Feminism that I find problematic for a number of reasons although the history behind it is fascinating and don't get me started on Lady... I will cut you. Not really. But I will think longingly about cutting you and scowl sternly in your direction. I digress.) but this new information has me thinking about that. Ever since I learned the term cisgendered I've taken to using it because I feel like it is a neat tool for linguistically leveling the playing field and helping to normalize language around trans-people. I have a number of trans people in my life who are near and dear to my heart and anything I can do to help normalize their experiences feels right.

Interestingly enough I was at a workshop with a bunch of other community leaders and organizers (many of whom were active in areas of social justice around race and poverty but not as familiar with GLBT issues.) and I introduced myself as a cisgendered female identified queer female with a cisgendered hetero male partner and immediately got a crack from one of the other group participants that he was a lesbian trapped in a male body... the conversation that ensued from that was... difficult.

[Señor Goose]

Whoa, I thought 'queer' was a redneck word for 'gay'. What does it mean in this context?

[crater]

Mar 7, 2014 5:30:39 GMT Gotolei said:

"Womyn"
Is that like, Anwyn or something?

I wonder at what point does facebook just set up an input box for gender.

just like real women, only with less men

I prefer to call myself a wombat, but it's not in the poll, DISCRIMINATION

[snipertom]

Definitely NOT meant to be a validated scientific poll

I personally can't stand the proliferation of gender terms above either. Cis male, cis man, cissexual male, cissexual man, cisgender man, cisgender male all mean the same thing. I have no idea why there is a trans*man and trans man and trans male as FB options. I really don't. I don't think it's controversial in the slightest that these mean the same thing.

While I think that it's completely completely appropriate and fair for there to be more than one term for the same thing (like gay/homosexual/lesbian/dyke all potentially meaning the same thing in a woman), I sort of have an issue with when people want to use language to make distinctions between things that are the same and insist on doing so and then claim that these are different academic entities.

You can boil the options above down to:

• Male not otherwise specified (NOS)
• Female NOS
• Male gender, born biologically male: cis(sexual/gender) man/male
• Female gender, born biologically female: cis(sexual/gender) woman/female
  
• Transgender ie not identifying (or not strictly anyway) as birth sex: trans(*)(gender) woman/female/man/male/person/masculine/feminine; genderqueer; gender non-conforming; gender variant
• Transsexual ie identifying strongly as opposite of birth sex, often with the intent of living full time as that sex whether or not hormonal and/or surgical options are pursued: trans(sexual) woman/female/man/male; male to female; female to male
• Agender ie not identifying strongly as either male or female: agender/androgyne/androgynous/neutrois/neither male nor female
• Identifying as both male and female or multiple genders: bigender/pangender
• Gender fluid ie fluctuating gender identity
• 'Third gender': two-spirit (native American); fa'afafine (Samoan); hijra (Indian); others <-- totally interesting!
• Intersex: having physical characteristics of both male and female sexes or lacking them entirely
• Other: <-- this is something I'm more interested in than the difference between transgender and genderqueer or agender and neutrois
• Womyn: SMASH THE PATRIARCHY! (see below)

Womyn is sort of there not because it's a facebook option (it isn't) but because *some* feminists think the word 'woman' contains 'man' so it's patriarchal. Some of them even make the y into a *. So, wom*n which doesn't just transcend patriarchal norms but also the alphanumeric system. How do you pronounce '*' ??! That said, if you identify in such a way, it's an option on this poll. Yay?

This article was pretty good about what the above terms mean; I hadn't come across some of them: www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/15/the-complete-glossary-of-facebook-s-51-gender-options.html

philman just to clarify, my extended biological sex explanation didn't actually cover transsexuals or gender at all, and chromosomal sex anomalies and transsexual status aren't necessarily correlated at all. Most people with all 'X' (XO, XX, XXX...) identify as female, most people with at least one 'Y' (XY, XXY, XYY, XXXY, XXYY, XYYY....) identify as male. Most transsexual people have XX or XY. However XXY males are slightly more likely to be trans from recollection than XY. Being born physically (phenotypically) male or female but having genetic anomalies meaning that you have the 'opposite' chromosomal sex (eg XY female or XX male) has variable effects on gender identity however most XY females and XX males identify as their phenotype ie physical birth sex. I did not mean to imply that trans people all have chromosomal or genetic abnormalities (clearly untrue)

[eyemyself]

Mar 7, 2014 15:17:48 GMT Señor Goose said:

Whoa, I thought 'queer' was a redneck word for 'gay'. What does it mean in this context?

Some people in the LGBT community, myself included, use queer as an umbrella term or a catch all for identities that don't easily fit into other labels. (Or as an intentional way to get around other labels that feel too limiting.) To I use queer rather than bi-sexual because I don't ascribe to the idea of a gender binary and for me the gender of the person I am attracted to have almost no bearing on whether or not I am attracted to them. (Other physical attributes do and intellectual attributes certainly pay a HUGE part in attraction for me. I've toyed with the term sapio-sexual but it just doesn't really feel like it fits. Pan- and Omni- for me feel like they imply that I am attracted to everyone in the world. Queer works as a good general descriptor for me and it feels like a comfortable way to describe myself. Other people use it differently. YMMV. It is one of those words that is being reclaimed by the community it was used as a slur against but should probably be avoided by people outside that community.)

Wombats are pretty badass.

[snipertom]

Mar 7, 2014 15:17:48 GMT Señor Goose said:

Whoa, I thought 'queer' was a redneck word for 'gay'. What does it mean in this context?

'Queer' is a catch-all term for 'non-straight' and includes all the LGBTI (though it has been co-opted by a minority who think that no labels for sexual orientation should exist, except for the label 'queer', and that means that you can even be a 'straight queer'). But yes it started life as rednecks calling brokeback mountains queers or something.

'Genderqueer' is essentially the same 'transgender' or 'non-cis' or 'not really gender identifying as your physical sex'. Use of the term 'genderqueer' has increased over time and honestly I cannot find a clear distinction between it and 'transgender' unless you think 'genderqueer' is all the 'transgender' people who aren't actually 'transsexual'?

I don't identify as queer any more (I used to), because of the wankers who think that if you call yourself bisexual or gay or straight that you're oppressing queers and that you can have straight queers. I don't want to have anything to do with that sort of mentality. Just because I don't use a label doesn't mean I think we should force labelessness or force a single political and therefore meaningless and hypocritical label on other people. I however have absolutely no problem with people identifying as queer at all. If it works for you, do it!

I disagree with eyemyself - I guess it depends where you live though; in Aus & NZ, queer has been successfully reclaimed and thus is no longer used as a pejorative, unless you are SPECIFICALLY going out of your way to use a particular tone of voice (ie going 'he is one of THE GAYS' like one of my homophobic ex-housemates used to). It's also used as a single word to try and include all the LGBTIBBQ alphabet soups so it's used often in the humanities and by straight people and generally it's not thought offensive.

[snipertom]

Mar 7, 2014 8:51:14 GMT Gulby said:

I voted "Other" because if I quickly identify myself, it is as "human being". But if I want to develop, that gives me approximately the same definition as Eyemyself :

eyemyself said:

Serious answer: Gender Non-conforming Female Identified Cisgender Female

Or something like that. With a bit of boyish identification somewhere. But biologically and pronuns-ly, and physically, I am a female human being.

ie, a non-girly-female/a tomboy who feels female? kinda? (question directed at both Gulby and eyemyself )

[snipertom]

Mar 6, 2014 21:08:34 GMT freeformline said:

I thought I was at least mildly knowledgeable about non-standard gender identities, but I clearly am not, judging by the number of terms in that list with which I am unfamiliar. In order to save me the effort of opening Google in a new tab, could you explain to me what the prefix cis means in this case? I went and joined a group for supporting LGBTQ students at my school, so I figure I should be able to discuss these terms with at least a little intelligence.

Also, the writer in me is being bothered that you never explicitly stated the purpose of this thread, but I think I can let that slide.

"a good launching point to talk about both gender identity and biological sex."

[Per]

So anyway about this webcomic

[Señor Goose]

Mar 7, 2014 16:28:52 GMT Per said:

So anyway about this webcomic

I wonder if we can find out more information on this Steadman person.

[eyemyself]

Mar 7, 2014 15:48:28 GMT snipertom said:

Mar 7, 2014 8:51:14 GMT Gulby said:

I voted "Other" because if I quickly identify myself, it is as "human being". But if I want to develop, that gives me approximately the same definition as Eyemyself :

Or something like that. With a bit of boyish identification somewhere. But biologically and pronuns-ly, and physically, I am a female human being.

ie, a non-girly-female/a tomboy who feels female? kinda? (question directed at both Gulby and eyemyself )

Oh I can be very girly when the mood strikes me! Don't get me wrong, however, I am extremely comfortable in ratty cargo pants, an A-line tank, and a flannel shirt and most days I'd rather be two days into a back woods hike than sporting heels out on the town. (Most days, but not every day.)

However, as a female identified female I get push-back in many settings because:
* I am outspoken, opinionated, and tend to speak with an air of authority
* I don't equate sex with love
* I am way more likely to oogle pretty women then most men I know
* I am physically stronger than is generally expected
* I am stubborn to the point of stupidity about doing things for myself
* Career is a bigger priority for me than romance
* Don't want kids
* Do want adventure in my life, as often as possible
* Domestically challenged and disorganized - clean enough is clean enough unless company is coming
* Drive stick shift
Etc...

Of course I am kind of of the opinion that almost everyone is really gender non-conforming from society's standpoint. At least a little bit. It's just not everyone has realized it yet.

[snipertom]

Mar 7, 2014 16:37:25 GMT eyemyself said:

Mar 7, 2014 15:48:28 GMT snipertom said:

ie, a non-girly-female/a tomboy who feels female? kinda? (question directed at both Gulby and eyemyself )

Oh I can be very girly when the mood strikes me! Don't get me wrong, however, I am extremely comfortable in ratty cargo pants, an A-line tank, and a flannel shirt and most days I'd rather be two days into a back woods hike than sporting heels out on the town. (Most days, but not every day.)

However, as a female identified female I get push-back in many settings because:
* I am outspoken, opinionated, and tend to speak with an air of authority
* I don't equate sex with love
* I am way more likely to oogle pretty women then most men I know
* I am physically stronger than is generally expected
* I am stubborn to the point of stupidity about doing things for myself
* Career is a bigger priority for me than romance
* Don't want kids
* Do want adventure in my life, as often as possible
* Domestically challenged and disorganized - clean enough is clean enough unless company is coming
* Drive stick shift
Etc...

Of course I am kind of of the opinion that almost everyone is really gender non-conforming from society's standpoint. At least a little bit. It's just not everyone has realized it yet.

I think it sucks that those things aren't considered 'girly' - what is so masculine about being assertive after all? bah!

[eyemyself]

snipertom, yeah. I think it sucks, too. I am inordinately proud every time I get newly branded as being too outspoken... even though it is a pain in the ass every single time.

[snipertom]

While I'd heard about the whole 'femininity = passive' 'masculinity = aggressive' nonsense that people (used to) believe in I was seriously surprised at how entrenched that idea even is in non-medical academic literature.

In the realm of psychology and psychiatry it's completely and utterly clear that passivity, aggressiveness and passive-aggressiveness are immature, dysfunctional behaviours. Assertiveness is by far the most mature communication style!

When I think of femininity I think of girly mannerisms mostly, followed perhaps by hairstyle? dress sense? and maybe wearing lipstick or something. But really, mainly mannerisms.

When I think of masculinity similarly it's mainly mannerisms I focus on.

Which is I suppose what I mean by saying that I'm somewhat feminine

I don't think I'm alone in this? I think this is kind of how *most* people think of femininity and masculinity these days?

And there were definitely some quite aggressive women back in the day and some quite passive men- I meet them in their old age now! They really don't seem any less feminine or masculine to me? Though I suppose you have that whole idea of 'wearing the pants' in a relationship, and hen-pecked men used to be made fun of.

However, assertiveness itself doesn't seem like it even could be gendered to me- it just seems like HEALTHY and NON-GENDERED communication. And most elderly people regardless of culture (with perhaps some exceptions in parts of rural Eastern Europe) seem to communicate that way, rather than being either passive or aggressive.

I mean I guess my opinion could also be skewed by being in the medical profession which is about 50/50 M:F among people with my particular level of experience. Definitely no shortage of assertive women at all, and they are not considered masculine. I have to admit that there are high levels of girly men in medicine but I wouldn't say that they were largely passive.

Interesting!