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Post by Elaienar on Nov 24, 2010 23:33:27 GMT
Is it possible that she intended to tell him all along? That's what I thought, after re-reading the chapter -- that she fully intended to tell him how the Court had tricked him, but that Renard's criticism of her father angered her so much that she told him in the worst possible way.
It would also provide another explanation for why she's not letting him change back in that last panel; now that he knows I imagine she wants to talk about what to do about it. I mean, I suppose she could be doing it out of pure spite but she doesn't look terribly angry any more.
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Post by fuzzysocks on Nov 24, 2010 23:44:40 GMT
I'm gonna have to agree that you're a little angel if you've never done such a thing or even THOUGHT of such a thing. Either that or you're prone to mental breakdowns. Please keep in mine I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm just saying that honestly most people will lash back out at their friends and/or parents ESPECIALLY when your having a very bad day. It may not be to THAT extent, but if I had a day like she was where everything was going wrong and it was building up to an ungodly level I know for a fact that I lash out at people... sometimes quite cruelly. But what also helps in the end is that I've realized what I've said and apologize for it. Er... really? People just can't have different reactions when they're angry? If you've never been this cruel you must have mental breakdowns? I'll keep that in mind for my next fight I guess. Anyhow, on the comic, do I think she's acting in an unreasonable fashion? No, not really. But I do think she's acting in an unjustified one. I tend to agree with Rook. With everything else on top of her, this doubt about her father's character is one she probably has herself. A lot of people seem to think this way of him and he DID abandon her with no point of contact. So she's hurting. And she's not just lashing out, she's very levelly trying to hurt him in return the same way as she's hurting, doubting a person she loves. Understandable, but if there is karma in the world of Gunnerkrigg this'll probably come back to bite her in a major way. It's not, "being this cruel leads to a mental breakdown"... what I'm referring to is all the backlash being pent up inside of you with no way of escaping. If you find your in a situation, generally, where you don't have an outlet of any sort... or allow yourself an outlet of some sort, you usually result in some type of breakdown. I'm not endorsing her sadism, but I am saying that pent up rage/anger/sorrow without an outlet of ANY sort, whether it be beating up your pillow or venting at a friend, one usually can't handle it. I know from experience. I've been in a situation where there was nothing I could do to retaliate, or to vent and after a couple of weeks where the build up became intolerable, someone said one stupid little thing to me and I wound up sobbing uncontrollably for 2 hours. Mental... Breakdown.
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monte
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Post by monte on Nov 24, 2010 23:45:43 GMT
I really want to second Jayne on the "Annie isn't aware of Reynardine's feelings, she's getting satisfaction out of being right" concept. But I think that she is doing it to punish him for hurting her, so she does mean for it to be a good hard stab in the gut and enjoying that she's hitting her mark. I do agree that she's not fully aware of how MUCH it's hurting, or has the potential to hurt. I find it weird that her telling him to shut up and get in his box has been presented as a better alternative to this. It's generally played for laughs in the series itself and Annie doesn't do it in a mean spirited way, but that's uh.... not any nicer than what she's doing right now. It's still taking away his control and self-determination. At least now he can verbally defend himself. "the satisfaction of being right"... One thing that goes against that possibility is the fact that she is not letting Rey run away from this, she's not letting him hide. That should make it pretty clear how hurt he is right now, and that trying to force him to admit this truth is just too obviously painful. I would say that this really is worse than just ordering him to shut up. You say he can verbally defend himself but can he really? Seems like Annie wants to make sure he can talk because she KNOWS he has no defense. and who would actually WANT to be right about this. I mean she may not realize it but, she's basically saying "my mother was a manipulative bitch who spent months toying with your feelings as a plot to get you imprisoned". Really I know some people on these forums were holding out the hope that Surma wasn't just toying with Reynard by order of the court, holding out hope that she really did care about reynard and did not want to see him imprisoned... hell Anja said the court wanted to lure Rey to the court and did not necessarily say they wanted to imprison him. I mean, before he killed that amn to sneak into the court we don't know of anything that Rey did that was ever wrong and even have word from coyote that Rey actually loved humans. It really does make Surma look pretty terrible is she did not care for him as Annie is trying to say right now... thinking about it, I kinda want to see Rey try to deny this truth by claiming that what Annie says must be a lie because the kind-hearted Surma that he knew would never treat ANYONE like that; just as a way to make Annie see what she is actually implying... she wants to hurt Rey, but what she may not realize is how bad she is making her own mother look
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Post by fuzzysocks on Nov 25, 2010 0:00:55 GMT
Another point I wanted to make... Maybe Surma did love Reynardine. Not in the same way that a husband loves a wife... but in a way a friend loves a friend. Just because there isn't romantic entanglement doesn't meant Surma didn't love him in some way or another. It could just be a love that Reynardine misconstrued.
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Spike
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Post by Spike on Nov 25, 2010 0:18:37 GMT
Another point I wanted to make... Maybe Surma did love Reynardine. Not in the same way that a husband loves a wife... but in a way a friend loves a friend. Just because there isn't romantic entanglement doesn't meant Surma didn't love him in some way or another. It could just be a love that Reynardine misconstrued. The fact she gave him the Reynardine nickname implies otherwise, a nickname which she also explained, taking it further.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 25, 2010 0:30:57 GMT
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 25, 2010 0:33:07 GMT
You're just going to keep doing the blue-text thing, aren't you? Yes. Is it a problem? I use this color in other forums as well, but I can stop if everyone is bothered by it.[/font][/quote] If you're still interested in opinions, I find blue text—or any color other than black, really—harder to read on this background. It feels so weird using no color, though. See what I mean? Allec feels compelled to consistently draw attention in the most superficial way possible. Sheesh, we already have avatars, which are automatic. The notion that Allec manually recolors every. single. post. that he (she?) makes is just... repellent. It's AW OCD. Oh for the love of pete. Internet psychoanalysis BS is even worse than colored text.
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Spike
Junior Member
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Post by Spike on Nov 25, 2010 0:33:44 GMT
Well, I only realized what you meant moments after I posted, when already I was walking off to the shower. I decided to take the shower nevertheless.
Yes, Surma may have loved Renard as a friend; it doesn't change the fact she deceived him. No, Renard didn't misinterpret the language.
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Post by agasa on Nov 25, 2010 0:43:44 GMT
Ok, keep in mind that i think that annie just had a stressful moment / PMS / puberty / whatever. Keeping this in mind, i wrote this short Wild Spec in a chat, and the sheer absurdity needs to be shared. I'll quote it literally.
"She's a demon of hell mimicking a young girl, and will eat us all when we lower our guard. Zimmy is clearly a nice widdle girl, and she felt an instinctive repellance to Annie because despite her ability to calm her static, there's something off about her and it shows to Zimmy Etheric-o-Vision(TM). As far as we know, surma got a weird etheric illness when she gave birth to Annie. it's quite possible that...let me think this WMG over...surma was sterile and they used some weird etheric assisted conception method that was not entirely holy and pure, thus giving birth to a seemingly normal girl, but inside, deep inside, deep inside, she's dark.
and well, not really so deep actually. she's just too calm, too collected not to be dark, at times. goes with the nickname of ice queen, i guess. she's so detached, normally, because she knows, deep down, that she's not all of this world, and from there comes most of her exceptional nature, more so than her mom, she's medianic as hell. And i mean it literally."
Feel free to shoot me for this.
DISCLAIMER: Intended for laughs and parody for all that said that she's gone evil, possessed, et cetera. I fully expect Kat to burst in and douse the firehead pronto.
Or Maybe, just maybe, there's truth in this.
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Spike
Junior Member
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Post by Spike on Nov 25, 2010 0:50:55 GMT
DISCLAIMER: Intended for laughs and parody for all that said that she's gone evil, possessed, et cetera. I fully expect Kat to burst in and douse the firehead pronto. Lately, I've been having weird misreading incidents. First, I read "Stickfigures" as "Starfuckers". Then, "Something Else" as "Something Diabolic" (no, I do not understand either). Now, I read "firehead pronto" as "firehead potato". Something must be wrong with me. Or I am lacking sleep.
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Post by fuzzysocks on Nov 25, 2010 1:13:48 GMT
Well, I only realized what you meant moments after I posted, when already I was walking off to the shower. I decided to take the shower nevertheless. Yes, Surma may have loved Renard as a friend; it doesn't change the fact she deceived him. No, Renard didn't misinterpret the language. I did not say he misinterpreted the language! I said it was the love that he got confused about. Yes she did deceive him into thinking she was in love with him. Regardless my post still stands! His love is misconstrued.
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qmarx
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Post by qmarx on Nov 25, 2010 1:33:04 GMT
Yes. Is it a problem? I use this color in other forums as well, but I can stop if everyone is bothered by it. [/font][/quote] If you're still interested in opinions, I find blue text—or any color other than black, really—harder to read on this background. [/quote] It's irritating to read, and I just skip over posts that are colored differently. While color can on occasion add emphasis, doing a whole post with it is irritating, and decreases the usability. It's like making your whole post a link to somewhere.
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Post by Yin on Nov 25, 2010 1:41:53 GMT
If you guys are going to keep on arguing the pros and cons of coloured text, would you maybe mind taking it to PMs or something? Please?
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Post by christopher on Nov 25, 2010 3:48:18 GMT
Wow, what a stone cold bitch... There are lines you just don't cross and they BOTH ran right past about seven of them. Just to be fair, what do you call Rey? Stone cold bastard? No, he's an insensitive @$$hole. Seriously, bad mouthing her father and not expecting a reprisal? Not the height of sensitivity. However, I do think that Annie in this case is going way, waaaaaaay too far in reaction. Bear in mind that her expression is clearly making it seem like she's thoroughly enjoying this. While Renard was, obviously insensitively, trying to help her. His intent was not to upset her, so much as make her realize what she was doing was wrong (And I don't mean just the cheating, if that's what she was doing) and do her homework herself. So in THIS particular case, Annie is the more cruel, and apparently sadistic, one.
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Post by jayne on Nov 25, 2010 4:07:56 GMT
Rey was being his usual, insensitive self, but he struck a raw nerve at the wrong time. This time, Annie blew up at him, big time!
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Post by jayne on Nov 25, 2010 4:51:32 GMT
...actually Stone Cold Bastard sounds more like a small brewery's product.
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Post by bnpederson on Nov 25, 2010 5:47:44 GMT
Annie being effectively possessed (by the whitelegs, by the anan waters, by whatever) would seem like a cop out to me. I hope Tom didn't do it that way. I think it's an interesting development for Annie's character and am fine with protagonists that aren't perfect.
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Post by TBeholder on Nov 25, 2010 7:24:04 GMT
I am pretty sure Tom said that Renard cannot actually harm Annie. Rey said as much in 81 So what? Physically biting her isn't the only option. Nor the worst, as we just saw. He apparently can talk at will unless specifically prohibited, with one little exception. Should mention, that bubble of hope was about Surma, not Annie. Why? There's a lot of space between "really attracted to him" and "set him up maliciously". His chances for the first never looked well, so what changed? I understand that Renard was poking something of a sore spot but she is essentially being as cruel as possible to a being who has been nothing but supportive, protective, and nurturing toward her over homework. What's more, she is clearly enjoying this. That is not anger. It's not so much the hurtful things she is saying, it's the amount to which she's relishing in it that disturbs me. Not just in one moment, but the entire page. Uh, how lashing back isn't the whole point? And even aside of vindictive part and relaxing reins, letting it fly free is rather pleasant in itself, with cold fury more so than with blind rage. She'll probably have a nasty hangover later, but one hard hit doesn't mean she already finished. That's the thing with bottled up anger: if it didn't flare quickly, it's not going to evaporate quickly either. Cold, accurate fury is how Annie reacted on perceived offence before. For a flying fire-hurling diplomat of the spirit world, it's a big flaw, yes. For a little girl who was alone most of the time? Maybe the best she could do. There was a well thought out hissy fit Mort received, and... After finding out what her mother did to him, it may not just be her lashing back at his insults of her father If she had a sadistic streak in her, she'd have let Eglamore keep him in the first place! You forgot: she refused to let Eglamore keep Rey in the first place specifically because at that time she was busy. Doing her best to show his good friends that James is such a bloodthirsty sadistic fool he's unfit even to be a jailer for killer demons. Without showing any signs of anger. He "has been nothing but supportive, protective, and nurturing" too - and presumably saved her life recently. And it mattered only until he said one wrong phrase. He didn't expound on this like Renard. By the way, i re-read that scene - and it looks like back then Renard was too upset to get a clue he sorely needed today. He acted "random moody", no jabs at James at all... And now he missed a brewing storm and continued after Annie snapped, but tried to hold it and talk normally. He may be a good trickster but isn't as alert as Jones. Touching a sore spot isn't equivalent to ripping a guys heart out. Not equivalent, but one may include another. This time Renard just was unlucky - offended Annie when she already had too much and right after she got a bludgeon heavier and spikier than he deserved. Otherwise she would still hurt him a lot, of course, but probably not nearly this bad. Don't forget what Rey said: "You have a fire in you, girl - a fire that belonged to your mother!" Given the chapter's title, that's about all the foreshadowing we need. " It's as if Surma has come back to us." Only more so. Tempting fate much, Rey? Has anyone else noticed that Annie said Renard could only tell the truth to her, and he just finished informing her of Anthony's failures? Yep, she just broke her hand punching Reynardine. Maybe she noticed this around panels 5-7?
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monte
Junior Member
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Post by monte on Nov 25, 2010 8:02:03 GMT
Why? There's a lot of space between "really attracted to him" and "set him up maliciously". His chances for the first never looked well, so what changed? The opening for interpretation has changed... The hope was that Surma was not the kind of bitch that would toy with an innocent creature's emotions for the goal of imprisoning them (before he poccessed that man, we know of no crimes that Reynard has committed; hence innocent)... The way Anja explained it, there seemed to be some opening as to what the court wanted to do; they wanted to get Reynard away from Coyote before he could give Rey power but Anja did not actually say the court wanted to imprison Reynard; its possible they could have just told Surma that they needed Rey to join the court or something like that... people held out hope that while Surma did lead Reynard on, she did still care about him(as a friend) and all she aimed to do was have him leave the forest for the court; not be imprisioned... Annie is kind of erasing that possibility... unlike Anja she out right says that her mother tricked Reynard for the sole purpose of imprisoning him... Hell by saying "how could she ever love a creature like you?" she is even implying that Surma did not care about him at all. No matter what the court wanted a friend would never go along with such a plan. As I said in my last post, Annie may not realize it, but she is actually implying that Surma was a bitch... she toyed with Rey's feelings for the purpose of imprisoning him, when he as far as we knew did not have any history of doing anything wrong (again, until he possessed and killed that man)... really that's down right terrible The only hope is that Annie is out of line and is misrepresenting the story that Anja told her, or doesn't know how it really all went down... That Surma actually did care about Rey and never intended for Rey to be imprisoned when she lead him on...
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 25, 2010 8:04:04 GMT
...actually Stone Cold Bastard sounds more like a small brewery's product. I like that brewery's Ruination IPA a lot, but I can hardly ever get hold of it. The last time I did, I had to go all the way to Seattle. Top-notch, really excellent beer, though. Edit: I was browsing the internet today, and I found this:
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Post by christopher on Nov 25, 2010 8:44:24 GMT
...actually Stone Cold Bastard sounds more like a small brewery's product. Here's the thing. Women and Men are 'cool' in differing ways. For example, using your term "Stone Cold Bastard", could be used among men to denote a sort of appreciation of ruthlessness and general badassness. However, my term of insensitive @$$hole or jerk denotes a more derogatory term towards the male character. However, being stone cold is still not exactly a good thing either way. It's just men tend to like/appreciate a certain level of implied violence in our masculine heroes. I'm not going to speak for women, cuz I ain't one.
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allec
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Post by allec on Nov 25, 2010 9:43:12 GMT
Fine, many people are obviously bothered by it, so I'll stop.
Today I woke up all excited because I thought it was Friday, but no. Anyway, while I agree with Monte that Surma could not have known they planned to imprison Renard, I think there is something to this story we do not know about yet. Surma left the Court and cut all contact to her friends for a reason, right? Maybe it has something to do with all of this.
'Course, this is all but wild speculation.
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Post by monkey12 on Nov 25, 2010 9:47:53 GMT
It's very interesting to see how many people are tossing around words like "sadistic" or "torture" in regards to how Annie is behaving towards Reynardine, but it's also noteworthy how the situation changes if you stop thinking about her doing this for the satisfaction of it and start treating it like a poorly planned intervention that's been warped by pent up pain, anger, and more than a little schadenfreude. Several people have mentioned specifically that Annie's commands prevent him from "running away" or "hiding" from what she's saying as if she's only out to hurt him, but both of those reactions are very unhealthy responses when confronted with the truth. The information she's giving him is painful, but it's also something that he needs to hear in order to understand the events that lead up to his current situation. If we take a look at Annie's face in the last panel, there's no trace of "sadism" or similar nonsense; that's the look of someone fed up with another person's crap and demanding that they face the facts. P.S.: Also, some people seem to be forgetting that Annie can't actually force Reynardine to say anything. He specifically mentions here that if he doesn't feel like talking, there's not a lot she can do about it.P.P.S.: Aaand apparently some people caught onto that much earlier than I did.
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Post by oglokoog on Nov 25, 2010 9:55:23 GMT
What the
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unctuous
New Member
doesn't usually get such compliments
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Post by unctuous on Nov 25, 2010 12:15:26 GMT
Pretty good theory, but personally, I feel it is way more scary to think what we are seeing is the real Annie. Oh, I think so too! I'm still really unwilling to believe it, but every time there's a scene where she flies into a rage at a perceived transgression or appears to consciously choose an emotion to display at her convenience, I briefly think "So maybe she's a sociopath? Surely not..." Yes, surely not!
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Post by Per on Nov 25, 2010 12:50:39 GMT
Stylized evil Annie face is stylized evil Annie face. Well, if Grant Morrison can do "it was really menstruation!" stories, so can Tom. We shall see. I haven't seen anything too bad either, but I do wonder why Tom seems to dislike the forum. I think it's more by default than for any particular reason. If you guys are going to keep on arguing the pros and cons of coloured text, would you maybe mind taking it to PMs or something? Please? Take it to PMS what
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Naota
New Member
Resident Demonologist
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Post by Naota on Nov 25, 2010 13:41:40 GMT
Jeez Annie, I know you want those stylish red eyes, but think about it - you do not need those Renegade points this badly! Attachments:
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Post by Yin on Nov 25, 2010 13:45:08 GMT
PMs=private messages. Har har.
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Post by fuzzysocks on Nov 25, 2010 14:11:53 GMT
Jeez Annie, I know you want those stylish red eyes, but think about it - you do not need those Renegade points this badly! *high five for Mass Effect reference*
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Post by elppa284 on Nov 25, 2010 15:25:19 GMT
Just registered because this page and the resulting discussion it's spawned are fascinating. I'm also wondering if this isn't Annie deliberately trying to push Reynardine away. After finding out what her mother did to him, it may not just be her lashing back at his insults of her father - she might still be processing what her mother did to him and wondering if she herself hasn't been using him as well this whole time. After all, everyone always says she looks just like her mother, maybe she's starting to be afraid she herself has the same capacity for cruelty. She might be questioning her friendships at this point and whether or not she's been using people. So then Reynardine pops up and starts calling her out on copying Kat's notes - "using" Kat for her intellect - and then insults Annie's father. That pushes her over the edge, and she starts going off on him, trying to make him stop seeing her as a friend. It's a weird way of punishing herself. I'm not saying any of this is a GOOD idea, and she is going overboard and will probably regret this afterward, but... when I was in middle school, I myself tended to try to push my friends away when I was hurting as a way of punishing myself. So maybe I'm overthinking it, but the way Annie is taking this over-the-top - beyond just lashing out at Rey - I keep wondering if that isn't part of her reaction too. Anyway, that's all. Hi. Going back to the discussion now. I've been thinking something along the lines of this, and you've put it to words so well I don't think she's deliberately doing all of this either-probably went a little out of control *sniff* Annie. They grow up so fast
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