snuggly
New Member
The last man on earth sat in a room. There was a knock upon the door.
Posts: 28
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Post by snuggly on Nov 24, 2010 15:42:58 GMT
This is quite possible for a detached observer. Under these conditions, it's too much to ask of Annie, who isn't a full-fledged medium just yet. Like, um, friends? I see Annie's explosion here as an important part of her maturation. This may be bad, but is it any worse than never throwing a cruel fit, ever, on account of never having taken the risk of friendship? Maybe having friends who can hurt her, and whom she can hurt in return, does make Annie a little vulnerable to be a medium. If that's the case, it's not a job that any kid her age should be stuck with - or any person, for that matter. I act precisely like that on the account i have no true friends, i remember my last emotional outburst being when my cousin died years ago.
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qmarx
Junior Member
Posts: 59
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Post by qmarx on Nov 24, 2010 15:44:18 GMT
Man, Kat wouldn't stand for this.
Here's how the conversation would go. "You can only speak the truth when you talk to me, right? And now you KNOW the truth, so let me hear you say it!" "STOP!" "What? This is serious business, Kat." "Renardine, repeat after me.
P Equals NP"
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Post by hanneswall on Nov 24, 2010 15:45:36 GMT
You guys pretty much got Annie covered so i began to wonder about how Rey might react to this. I mean, taking abuse like this (wether it's deserved or not) is going to have some kind of effect on him and his relationship with Annie. The question is what kind of effect. Cue rampant speculation based on absolutely nothing! Clearing the air and then patching things up might bring them closer than ever, though I've got a hard time seeing Rey taking this that lightly. He might try to bolt, get to Coyote so he can get back into his old body, hide somewhere in the court 'till things cool down or, if the suspicion of eglamore-assisted-suicide aired in one of the previous post is correct he might try and put himself in a position where the court deems him to dangerous to keep around. Edit: Got a feeling that Kat is going to walk in any second now
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allec
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 15:48:40 GMT
I have no idea how Renard will react, but, what happened in this page is the kind of thing that can change a friendship forever. Even if they do apologize and make up, I think this will always be hanging in the air, simply because it was so extreme.[/font]
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amanmademonster
Junior Member
That's not a nice thing to say about a nun
Posts: 57
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Post by amanmademonster on Nov 24, 2010 15:50:24 GMT
P.M.S.
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Post by atteSmythe on Nov 24, 2010 16:03:20 GMT
Hot damn, bitch-mode Annie all the way! Is it bad that I am secretly loving this.You really don't get the whole 'secret' thing, do you? Ah, cruel Annie. Fire also burns.
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aegis
New Member
Above and beyond
Posts: 30
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Post by aegis on Nov 24, 2010 16:06:50 GMT
Wow. Annie really is letting her pent-up frustration out! This spiral of wrath was probably started way back when the psychopomps refused to take Surma, and built ever since until her sad façade of calm crumbled away in today's update.
Annie may have been driven to the edge by Renard, but she threw herself over it of her own volition. She is relying on base, animalistic rage just to make herself feel better (and in doing so she becomes sadistic) rather than using her higher thought processes. Logic and rationality have taken a backseat to destructive and foolish emotion.
Has anyone else noticed that Annie said Renard could only tell the truth to her, and he just finished informing her of Anthony's failures? So maybe Anthony really is a terrible person. After all he really hasn't shown a single redeeming feature.
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 16:10:32 GMT
Has anyone else noticed that Annie said Renard could only tell the truth to her, and he just finished informing her of Anthony's failures? So maybe Anthony really is a terrible person. After all he really hasn't shown a single redeeming feature. To be fair, he really hasn't been shown much either, so we've never had a chance to see him other than how other people present him and that one flashback scene where he spoke his only line thus far. So I think it's too soon to say that he hasn't a single redeeming feature.
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Post by Yin on Nov 24, 2010 16:12:14 GMT
Wait, is it the absolute truth, or the truth as Rey knows it? I can't remember if it was stated or answered before.
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 16:14:21 GMT
Wait, is it the absolute truth, or the truth as Rey knows it? I can't remember if it was stated or answered before. I think it's more of what he thinks is the truth than absolute or objective truth. He's called Zimmy a demon, and acts as if he's scared of her. Does that mean she truly is a demon, or that he just considers her one? Jones even called him out on that.
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allec
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 16:16:52 GMT
The truth as Renard knows it.[/font]
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Post by Rex on Nov 24, 2010 16:30:39 GMT
Now all we need is for Kat to either walk in on Annie saying some other horrible thing to Renard, or her having overheard the whole argument. The setup for something like this was made way back in the workshop at the start of the chapter.
If this happens she'll not only wind up boxing Renard, but will miss out on the trip with the Donlans. She'll basically have a whole summer break to dwell on what has happened.
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Post by jayne on Nov 24, 2010 16:32:59 GMT
I have no idea how Renard will react, but, what happened in this page is the kind of thing that can change a friendship forever. Even if they do apologize and make up, I think this will always be hanging in the air, simply because it was so extreme. [/font][/quote] Yeah but their friendship developed after he tried to kill her so, getting back to that shouldn't be too much to expect. This is just a fight. Fights happen.
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allec
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 16:44:23 GMT
I don't really think of it was a simple fight, no. I mean, Tom has told us Renard regrets killing that man — and presumably everyone else before and afterwards — every day of his life, and the sole reason he did all of that was because of his love for Surma and the belief that she loved him in return. All of his actions came back to bite his ass for years until he got trapped in the doll, and it seems pretty soul crushing to hear it was all because of a lie.
They might be friends again, yeah, but it would be completely different.[/font]
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aegis
New Member
Above and beyond
Posts: 30
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Post by aegis on Nov 24, 2010 16:45:02 GMT
The truth as Renard knows it. [/font][/quote] That cannot be correct because Renard would still say Surma loved him (as he knows it, remember). Annie's new info wouldn't instantly become Renard's known truth. Hell, Anja may not have known the truth to tell it to Annie.
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allec
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 16:47:43 GMT
It is what Tom said, though. He can tell a lie if he doesn't know it is a lie.[/font]
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aegis
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Post by aegis on Nov 24, 2010 16:50:15 GMT
Then Renard should have no problem saying she loved him. He still doesn't know that what Annie told him was the truth (if it even was, we don't know that yet).
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 16:51:20 GMT
Then Renard should have no problem saying she loved him. He still doesn't know that what Annie told him was the truth (if it even was, we don't know that yet). Or, what Annie said may simply have planted a seed of doubt, so he's not completely certain anymore.
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Post by jayne on Nov 24, 2010 16:52:32 GMT
Then Renard should have no problem saying she loved him. He still doesn't know that what Annie told him was the truth (if it even was, we don't know that yet). Or, what Annie said may simply have planted a seed of doubt, so he's not completely certain anymore. Or he realizes he's been fooling himself and can no longer deny it. She DID marry someone else after all.
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allec
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 16:53:16 GMT
Presumably, he believes it to be the truth now.[/font]
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aegis
New Member
Above and beyond
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Post by aegis on Nov 24, 2010 16:55:46 GMT
Or, what Annie said may simply have planted a seed of doubt, so he's not completely certain anymore. So Renard cannot say something when he is unsure of its truthfulness? That seems highly unlikely (he wouldn't be able to theorize or offer an opinion in some cases simply due to this condition). Certainty doesn't equate with truth. Presumably, he believes it to be the truth now. [/font][/quote] That was too easy for someone as old and clever as he is. Maybe its just a small plot hole.
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allec
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 16:57:58 GMT
Whatever the rules of ownership are, the fact is he was unable to say anything.[/font]
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Nov 24, 2010 16:58:14 GMT
Then my point on his opinion of Zimmy stands.
He considers her a foul irredeemable demon, so is she in truth a foul irredeemable demon? Jones called him out of this.
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Post by jayne on Nov 24, 2010 16:59:11 GMT
Or, what Annie said may simply have planted a seed of doubt, so he's not completely certain anymore. So Renard cannot say something when he is unsure of its truthfulness? That seems highly unlikely (he wouldn't be able to theorize or offer an opinion in some cases simply due to this condition). Certainty doesn't equate with truth. If he's not sure of the truth, he can't lie since lying means saying something that is not true. He has to know the truth and say something other than that to lie. He considered it true that Zimmy is a demon so all he could say was that she was a demon. At that point, he couldn't tell Annie, "Zimmy is just a normal girl" Now he probably doesn't consider her a demon but he still can't say she's just a normal girl.
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aegis
New Member
Above and beyond
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Post by aegis on Nov 24, 2010 17:04:54 GMT
@ jayne That's exactly my point! mikeymikemikey That would depend on the definition Jones or Renard are using of demon. Subjectivity makes this whole thing a mess doesn't it? I'll drop this and chalk it up to a plot hole. I hope that I haven't incurred too much annoyance with this...
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Post by jayne on Nov 24, 2010 17:05:52 GMT
@ jayne That's exactly my point! mikeymikemikey That would depend on the definition Jones or Renard are using of demon. Subjectivity makes this whole thing a mess doesn't it? I'll drop this and chalk it up to a plot hole. I hope that I haven't incurred too much annoyance with this... Wait, you forgot one case: Maybe he didn't say it, not because he couldn't lie, but because he didn't want to accept it. It might have nothing to do with his binding.
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Post by mandolin on Nov 24, 2010 17:06:46 GMT
Just registered because this page and the resulting discussion it's spawned are fascinating.
I'm also wondering if this isn't Annie deliberately trying to push Reynardine away. After finding out what her mother did to him, it may not just be her lashing back at his insults of her father - she might still be processing what her mother did to him and wondering if she herself hasn't been using him as well this whole time. After all, everyone always says she looks just like her mother, maybe she's starting to be afraid she herself has the same capacity for cruelty. She might be questioning her friendships at this point and whether or not she's been using people.
So then Reynardine pops up and starts calling her out on copying Kat's notes - "using" Kat for her intellect - and then insults Annie's father. That pushes her over the edge, and she starts going off on him, trying to make him stop seeing her as a friend. It's a weird way of punishing herself.
I'm not saying any of this is a GOOD idea, and she is going overboard and will probably regret this afterward, but... when I was in middle school, I myself tended to try to push my friends away when I was hurting as a way of punishing myself. So maybe I'm overthinking it, but the way Annie is taking this over-the-top - beyond just lashing out at Rey - I keep wondering if that isn't part of her reaction too.
Anyway, that's all. Hi. Going back to the discussion now.
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aegis
New Member
Above and beyond
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Post by aegis on Nov 24, 2010 17:08:59 GMT
@ jayne Yes I did forget! So Annie is just misinterpreting his reaction. That makes perfect sense and plugs the imaginary plot hole.
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allec
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by allec on Nov 24, 2010 17:09:14 GMT
Actually... you have a point there. That is possible, I think.
Which reminds me, I still think this is all another ploy from the Court.[/font]
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heranje
Full Member
Oh super wow!
Posts: 175
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Post by heranje on Nov 24, 2010 17:13:55 GMT
It's the expressions. What Annie is doing and saying wouldn't seem so bad if it wasn't for the sadism and glee in her face. That's what makes me think this is more than just a teenage lash-out, but I'm not sure. There's just something about her body language that's so... off. I mean, look at her posture in panels 2 and 5 and her face in 4 and 5 (especially 5, god that's a creepy Annie) - she seems almost predatory and she's loving it. She's not just speaking without thinking, she's relishing in Renard's misery.
It may just be that we're seeing another side of Annie, though. If you think of her as the result of the combination of her mother (feisty, prone to anger - at least as a teenager, as we've seen) and her father (cold, distant), you've got that fire hidden underneath her poised exterior, and you know what happens when you bottle up emotions for too long. But... this isn't just anger.
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