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Post by jayne on Sept 27, 2010 15:41:35 GMT
It might be vague on purpose. I doubt Tom could fully explain how it works without us, the audience, tearing it to shreds. If he leaves the details up to our imagination, no matter how much we speculate, in the end, "it just is" It behaves that way because they willed it so. Is that not explanation enough? AHA, now for all of Diego's faults... he also has a terrible ethic! (He built boxbot, didn't he?) ;D
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Post by Elaienar on Sept 27, 2010 15:42:47 GMT
This isn't exactly the word I'm looking for, but the closest I can think of right now is that the arrow is a glamer. It struck her lover, killing her heart and will and everything good about her, and then its glow entranced her mind. I'm left with the impression that without it, she would have been devastated, maybe even lost her will to live, but she would have left, wept, walked into the river, anything but just stand there and stare into the water until her body gave out due to hunger and thirst. Biggest problem-- Jeanne appears to be in full possession of her memories and mental faculties, so after what the Court did to her, why is she defending it? With the information we've been given so far, this makes the exact opposite of sense. She's not defending it. She's striking out, maliciously, at anything that comes near her. She feels such pain that she cannot help but inflict it on others. She has nothing to live for, and cannot die. If she were defending the Court, she wouldn't be attacking students. Agreed. I think the green light arrow thing must actually have done something to her, on an etheric level, I guess. Normally people who see their loved ones shot right in front of them would have some physical reaction - crying out, trying to get to the loved one, something - but Jeanne just stands there. I think that from the moment Elfguy was killed, she had no control over her body. And yeah, from what we've seen, Jeanne's not discriminatory at all about who she attacks.
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Chrome
Full Member
The Shiny One
Posts: 232
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Post by Chrome on Sept 27, 2010 15:53:41 GMT
What if Jeanne actually died, but what we see here is actually a sort of psychic imprint, a "tool" forged of her emotions that were produced when she died?
That would explain why the psychopomps don't know who she was: what this IS isn't even all of Jeanne. Just a ghost-golem of sorts forged of what she felt when she died. And perhaps the true Jeanne can't fully pass until this "Sentinel" is dealt with on some level.
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Post by Rex on Sept 27, 2010 16:21:11 GMT
Spot on, Chrome. She even says that all that's left of her is her anger and hatred, implying that the rest of her spirit simply evaporated. Suddenly she's like a ghost with a bar code and Muut's scanner can't identify her for pickup and delivery.
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Post by jayne on Sept 27, 2010 16:29:13 GMT
Spot on, Chrome. She even says that all that's left of her is her anger and hatred, implying that the rest of her spirit simply evaporated. Suddenly she's like a ghost with a bar code and Muut's scanner can't identify her for pickup and delivery. Maybe the rest of her spirit was trapped in the device? I'm an optimist, I'm still hoping Jeanne can be fixed.
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Post by zylonbane on Sept 27, 2010 16:29:20 GMT
Jeanne's hatred seems to be targetted at anything emotionally alive, like in this case Parley, who is desperately in love (like Jeanne was). Parley's "power of... Heart!" may be mocking, but Jeanne quite explicitly HATES the Court, and at the time of her death she was fully prepared to run away and join the Wood with her lover. So why oh why would ghost-Jeanne feel motivated to stop any malevolent woodland force from crossing the river to attack the Court? Unless tomorrow's strip reveals that she is irresistibly compelled to attack all who approach, despite remaining self-aware, then the explanation we've been given is broken. Another problem here, albeit a minor one, is that Jeanne's reputation as impassable guardian of the water hasn't been backed up by anything we've actually seen. It's a classic informed ability.
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Post by jayne on Sept 27, 2010 16:39:00 GMT
When Shakespeare needed a villain, he just created one. Don John was a plain-dealing villain, without much explanation as to why. You can guess why but Shakespeare never explained.
In this case, we have a device. We know what it does, but like much in this story, how it works isn't completely explained. I'm fine with this, and with Don John.
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blue
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by blue on Sept 27, 2010 16:47:13 GMT
And now Parley and Jeanne will have a sword fight.
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Post by paxjax123 on Sept 27, 2010 16:59:30 GMT
Is anyone else thinking that Parley is about to die?
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Post by evilanagram on Sept 27, 2010 17:01:17 GMT
This page also makes it appear as though the Court's plan was a Batman Gambit, because it wouldn't have worked if Jeanne had simply gone down there as she was told and sat down to read a book or something. They were counting on her to use her all-expenses-paid trip to the Annan Waters as an escape attempt and tell her lover to meet her there. (Although, if she hadn't done so, they might have just lifted her up and told her that she would be going down there again the next week.) I'd say it borders on Xanatos Roulette since it seems extremely unlikely that they could have expected these events to occur exactly as they did. Is anyone else thinking that Parley is about to die? The thought has occurred to me, but I doubt that's the direction Tom is heading with this.
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Post by kaname on Sept 27, 2010 17:06:43 GMT
You assume that she is 100% rational in her state. But...actually, we have zero proof for this. The assumption itself is the problem, because she herself states that she isn't a full human with perfect rationality. She is merely the negative emotions that remained after everything else decayed away. Of course she doesn't act rational, and instead lashes out at everything in her path.
This isn't exactly new for ghosts. Classic stories involving ghosts usually work with that mechanic: the ghost is often bond to the general area they died in, and tends to attack anything without discrimination.
A further problem is that, even if that weren't the case: We can't judge a story that is ongoing on not fully explaining everything while it is ongoing. Sometimes, fully explaining things to early is bad for the story. Sometimes, fully explaining things in general is bad for the story: Example, Star Wars and the force.
@topic: I can't stop and feel that a lot of her hate is for herself. She was instrumental to the death of her lover. Unwilling, but instrumental she was. This might have made things worse than "just" watching your lover die.
It's not that. She played a part in it. She fully knows she was used in this, and that people she trusted used her like that. She probably blames herself, which most likely drove her further beyond the edge. She has nothing left, not the people she trusted, not those she loved, not even herself. All she has is hate, anger, and pain.
And just like real humans in such a state, she lashes out. The court did a terrible, terrible thing here. It's really strong enough to make me cry. I can't blame Parsley at all.
Why not? There are several people that lower her down.
What if the events were like this: Seperation of court -> messages -> Diego Scene (what part did you play in this, don't make me do this) -> Jeanne lowered down to the water -> death?
No Xanatos roulette involved: The court simply got to know of Jeanne's plan, and used it, most likely because Diego insisted to do it that way. Remember, Diego insisted it had to be Jeanne. And it is VERY likely that he did so precisely because he learned that Jeanne wanted to meet her lover again.
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Sept 27, 2010 17:17:35 GMT
Guys, she also says what was left of her spirit was "forged, white hot". I think it's pretty clear the device wasn't done with her just because she was dead. They needed her to be angry and hopeless so that the device could make use of those qualities to turn her into the river's guardian, but that doesn't mean everything that compels her to kill anyone who tries to cross the river came from inside her.
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Post by zylonbane on Sept 27, 2010 17:27:18 GMT
She's not much of a guardian anyway if all it takes is a prepubescent girl on a hover-bike to get past her.
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Post by idonotlikepeas on Sept 27, 2010 17:49:03 GMT
The people of the forest don't have hover-bikes. (Although I guess flying is nature's hover-bikes.)
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unrequited
Junior Member
Tormentor of the Heart, close friend of the Spleen
Posts: 74
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Post by unrequited on Sept 27, 2010 17:49:07 GMT
She would attack the Gillitie Wood side, in my opinion, because they're half responsible for this mess. Ysengrin isn't a shining paragon of virtue, and probably had about as much to do with the schism as gunnerkrigg.
She may have justification to be angry, but she lost my sympathy when she wants to hurt people for being happy when she's not. She's become the very much like Diego, with an "If I can't be happy, nobody else should" attitude. Her way of accomplishing it is through force, however.
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mechagai
New Member
Don't worry. I got this!
Posts: 45
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Post by mechagai on Sept 27, 2010 17:52:00 GMT
What if the events were like this: Seperation of court -> messages -> Diego Scene (what part did you play in this, don't make me do this) -> Jeanne lowered down to the water -> death? This is not the case. Tom stated in a formspring question that she was using the opportunity to escape, meaning she knew she was being sent down there. The message she sent most likely stated her plan, and asked him to meet down there. This means that they knew what she was going to do, and therefore made her do what she was supposed to do. Actually, the Diego scene has no bearing on when the message unless it was Diego telling her the plan. Otherwise, she was told beforehand.
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Post by evilanagram on Sept 27, 2010 18:14:25 GMT
Why not? There are several people that lower her down. What if the events were like this: Seperation of court -> messages -> Diego Scene (what part did you play in this, don't make me do this) -> Jeanne lowered down to the water -> death? No Xanatos roulette involved: The court simply got to know of Jeanne's plan, and used it, most likely because Diego insisted to do it that way. Remember, Diego insisted it had to be Jeanne. And it is VERY likely that he did so precisely because he learned that Jeanne wanted to meet her lover again. How would they know that Greeny planned to come for her at 3:00? As you can see here, Steadman did not have the chance to read that note, and it doesn't seem like anyone else would have either. If they had just had Steadman keep watch for Greeny and shoot him when he came in range, it would be a different story, but that's not what happened. They were expecting him to come at 3:00, and it seems like they needed Jeanne to be down there for three hours to complete the ritual. They may have used a Batman gambit to get her to bring Greeny down there, but their expecting him at exactly 3:00 in the morning stretches my suspension of belief.
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Post by daryljfontaine on Sept 27, 2010 18:48:44 GMT
Some thoughts:
- Jeanne is "in full possession of her memories and mental faculties" because she is communicating etherically; not only that, but she is doing so via Annie, who has psychopomp abilities of her own. Annie has a unique position in that she can see and communicate with the wandering dead, but also walks the mortal world -- thus she was able to investigate the nature of Jeanne's death, and help in ways Muut and the others would not be able to.
- Annie's first encounter with Jeanne was physical. There was no circumstance for Jeanne to communicate her story -- her white-hot rage spirit was acting under decades of sentinel instinct. Annie's blinker stone and her etheric form, as well as her abilities, allow for her to communicate with Jeanne... so while Jeanne is still an incomplete spirit of vengeance, Annie draws out her memories.
- Parley is the catalyst; her "gleaming heart" is her love for Smitty, and the focus of Jeanne's attention. Rather than being a mindless guardian of the Annan Waters, Jeanne now has a living reminder of her loss within reach. Naturally she's a little bit pissed.
Are Annie and Parley under threat of peril? Of course. But without this perfect convergence of circumstances (Annie's etheric projection, inadvertently coupled to Parley), they would have no means or focus of communication, and Jeanne would not have been able to convey her story. Now, the question becomes: can this communication be effectively made two-way, or is Jeanne's rage too unbridled to allow Annie to help her?
Apologies for treading any old ground or thrashing any deceased equines.
D
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jandor
Junior Member
Posts: 50
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Post by jandor on Sept 27, 2010 18:59:43 GMT
Why not? There are several people that lower her down. What if the events were like this: Seperation of court -> messages -> Diego Scene (what part did you play in this, don't make me do this) -> Jeanne lowered down to the water -> death? No Xanatos roulette involved: The court simply got to know of Jeanne's plan, and used it, most likely because Diego insisted to do it that way. Remember, Diego insisted it had to be Jeanne. And it is VERY likely that he did so precisely because he learned that Jeanne wanted to meet her lover again. How would they know that Greeny planned to come for her at 3:00? As you can see here, Steadman did not have the chance to read that note, and it doesn't seem like anyone else would have either. If they had just had Steadman keep watch for Greeny and shoot him when he came in range, it would be a different story, but that's not what happened. They were expecting him to come at 3:00, and it seems like they needed Jeanne to be down there for three hours to complete the ritual. They may have used a Batman gambit to get her to bring Greeny down there, but their expecting him at exactly 3:00 in the morning stretches my suspension of belief. Steadman fired off Jeannes reply though, not the letter from Green Guy saying 'meet at 3 hours past midnight'. Unless she destroys them after receiving them it's very possible the court saw them. Edit: I think it roughly goes: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=772www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=773www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=774www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=775www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=652www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=653www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=654www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=655www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=656www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=657www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=776www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=777www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=658www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=778That makes sense to me, although it does leave elf boy being the arrows target slightly unexplained. I guess that happens when you learn the story through a centuries old recording from the viewpoint of a bitter old man and the vengeful ghost he created .
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Post by jayne on Sept 27, 2010 19:05:14 GMT
Is anyone else thinking that Parley is about to die? YUP! I was thinking "Is Tom about to kill off a character?" It could go either way.
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Post by jayne on Sept 27, 2010 19:11:19 GMT
She's not much of a guardian anyway if all it takes is a prepubescent girl on a hover-bike to get past her. Blame Diego! He forgot to check for prepubescent girls on hover-bikes ;D I'm not sure what happened that first time. Annie's scar only shows up etherically, so Jeanne wasn't attacking her physical form, just her spirit. If Kat hadn't arrived, Jeanne might have killed Annie in etherical form, leaving a dead body with no cause of death, assuming if the spirit dies, the body also dies. Kat did arrive, and Jeanne's etheric link was somehow broken.
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jandor
Junior Member
Posts: 50
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Post by jandor on Sept 27, 2010 19:23:37 GMT
How would they know that Greeny planned to come for her at 3:00? As you can see here, Steadman did not have the chance to read that note, and it doesn't seem like anyone else would have either. If they had just had Steadman keep watch for Greeny and shoot him when he came in range, it would be a different story, but that's not what happened. They were expecting him to come at 3:00, and it seems like they needed Jeanne to be down there for three hours to complete the ritual. They may have used a Batman gambit to get her to bring Greeny down there, but their expecting him at exactly 3:00 in the morning stretches my suspension of belief. Steadman fired off Jeannes reply though, not the letter from Green Guy saying 'meet at 3 hours past midnight'. Unless she destroys them after receiving them it's very possible the court saw them. Edit: I think it roughly goes: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=772www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=773www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=774www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=775www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=652www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=653www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=654www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=655www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=656www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=657www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=776www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=777www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=658www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=778That makes sense to me, although it does leave elf boy being the arrows target slightly unexplained. I guess that happens when you learn the story through a centuries old recording from the viewpoint of a bitter old man and the vengeful ghost he created . Edit2: Maybe the Court knew given half a chance her and elf guy would meet up and try to escape, it's not like him and Jeanne where ever discreet. Also Elf guy seems to be regarded as a traitor to the Court (at least by Diego), they probably wanted a chance to shoot him. As far as they are concerned it works out perfectly.
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Post by Snes on Sept 27, 2010 19:28:48 GMT
I don't think Parley's heart is glowing because she's in love. I mean, is that supposed to be a normal thing? Do all people in love have big glowing hearts? If not, then why does Parley's glow down there?
Also, her love for Smitface isn't exactly the truest love ever. Neither of them are open about it or want to address it. And they're both still in high school for Pete's sake. I think it's a bit early to say what they have is all that amazingly pure.
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Post by q3 on Sept 27, 2010 19:32:34 GMT
Well, Jeanne doesn't attack anything that goes over the bridge, so maybe that's how Kat crossed, only taking her bike down after she reached the forest side of the bridge.
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Post by ajfriss on Sept 27, 2010 19:33:45 GMT
While sacrificing all seriousness, I'd say this fits the situation:
Smit-face ruins EVERYTHING.
Think about it. He's the reason parley has that... heart thing, which is making jeanne relive those moments (I believe all three are seeing those) AND mocking her (As jeanne sees it). So, apparently this is all smith's fault.
As I regain my seriousness:
Something pretty big's going to happen (Well, its BEEN happening, but something BIGGER, like ether-live-threatening bigger).
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Post by zylonbane on Sept 27, 2010 19:35:57 GMT
- Annie's first encounter with Jeanne was physical. Not really. Annie can see ghosts, so she could see Jeanne, and Jeanne's sword swipe only left an aetheric cut. This raises the question of how useful a guardian is whose sword only deals aetheric damage.
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Post by jayne on Sept 27, 2010 19:45:43 GMT
- Annie's first encounter with Jeanne was physical. Not really. Annie can see ghosts, so she could see Jeanne, and Jeanne's sword swipe only left an aetheric cut. This raises the question of how useful a guardian is whose sword only deals aetheric damage. According to Coyote, nothing could cross the river, so more than just etheric damage was possible, just in Annie's case, it was just etherical. No idea why BUT even without complete explanations, this story is interesting. Actually, explaining all the details could make it very dull. Engineers don't always write the best stories. (I'm an engineer, I can testify to that!)
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Post by blahzor on Sept 27, 2010 20:03:30 GMT
Are they weeping in the real world? doesn't seem like the real world since annie's hair is super long still
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Post by blahzor on Sept 27, 2010 20:07:15 GMT
Spot on, Chrome. She even says that all that's left of her is her anger and hatred, implying that the rest of her spirit simply evaporated. Suddenly she's like a ghost with a bar code and Muut's scanner can't identify her for pickup and delivery. Maybe the rest of her spirit was trapped in the device? I'm an optimist, I'm still hoping Jeanne can be fixed. well IT does say that her useless body was ensnared by the green light/device
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Post by jayne on Sept 27, 2010 20:07:35 GMT
Are they weeping in the real world? doesn't seem like the real world since annie's hair is super long still I bet you they are weeping up in the real world. If Annie speaks etherically, she speaks up there at the same time. I think they're both crying in real life too.
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