GKCFP: Vocal Auditions

[xanbcoo]

Casey, you are a class act.

[Casey]

Well you're kind to say it.

And I hope you still think so after the next thing I have to bring up.

Folks, (and that means pretty much everyone)

There's something that's been on my mind. Something that I feel that I failed to properly anticipate and plan for when we started. But something that I think should be addressed one way or another in the interests of everyone's enjoyment and opportunity to participate.

I never really made any arrangements for how we would distribute roles amongst as many people as possible. I think that everyone should be able to audition for whatever parts they want. But we--and by "we", I mean "I"--never stopped to consider the ramifications of what happened if one person managed to win a great number of roles. Not only would that situation preclude a number of people from participating, but it would also sound unusual in the final product unless that person were uncannily good at changing their voice.

So I've been sitting here for a couple of days, knowing that some plan needs to happen, but also not wanting to change things in mid-stream for fear that that would be unfair to someone or a group of someones. So I'm really struggling with balancing the best interests of the project as a whole with the interests of the individuals. I hope everyone will recognize and grant me the difficulty that puts me in.

There has to be some way of making sure the parts get distributed properly and evenly, while still making it possible for everyone to at least try out for every role they want. I cannot create a situation where a person has to only pursue a limited number of roles, because what happens if they don't audition for one role in anticipation of auditioning for another role, and then they don't get the second role?

The only solution that I have been able to come up with is this. Each part would get designated as major, minor, or bit. A person could try out for as many parts as they want, but if they win more than one part in one of those categories, then they would be asked to choose which one they wanted to play, and the part(s) they did not choose would go to the 2nd place in the voting for that part.

I can't tell if I'm explaining this well at all. And the problem is further compounded by the fact that we're not voting on all roles at once. So what happens if someone wants to try out for both Reynardine and Coyote, for example? What if the person who wins Reynardine would rather play Coyote, if he won it, when we won't even vote on Coyote for another two weeks?

It's a serious problem and I'm still working out the ramifications of it. We could wait until all the voting is done and then if anyone won more than one role, we could then have them choose and go to the next highest scorer, etc... but if we did that, it would mean that we couldn't start production at all until ALL voting were completed. And considering we don't even know what characters are coming in the future, how would we ever be able to know?

I don't want to make a decision unilaterally, because it affects all of us. You all have been nice enough to allow me this much free reign to engineer the success of this project, but since this affects so many of you in a personal way, I don't feel right just decreeing a solution without some sort of feedback from all of you.

But I can tell you that this is something that should be addressed before we go foward much further. This HAS to be decided soon.

If anyone has any insight on how other fan projects have handled this situation, I would love to hear them. I will try to make a better effort to explain my solution later, but I want to open the floor now for you guys to give your thoughts before I do.

[cantabile]

I think that those in second place (when applicable) should be mentioned/determined as the votes are tallied. Even if this proposal doesn't get carried out, there need to be replacements in case the winners aren't able to participate.

As for the rationing of parts, none of us know how many new characters are going to be introduced before the story ends. That being said, I don't think any action should be taken until this actually becomes an issue (i.e., one person wins 4 major roles, 10 minor roles, etc).

[Casey]

The reason why it needs to be settled before it becomes an issue is that once it becomes an issue, you have to retroactively apply something and there will be people (the one or ones affected) who won't think that's fair. The idea here is to establish some guidelines beforehand so that no one feels like the rug has been pulled out from under them.

[Casey]

On the related note of availability for participation, though, cantabile, since you brought it up and it is a good point, I will link this post that I made earlier, and I will note that I have only heard from two of our eight chosen actors so far...

But let's stay on the topic at hand. I just wanted to point that out to our actors.

[nikita]

There are many characters that don't appear until much later in the comic - but the central characters are all introduced early on and I think if they are well-distributed we already solved the problem.
If someone got a major role like Rey and also another minor or bit part like the gardener later, we don't have a big problem - in particular as scenes were a lot of characters come together are extremely rare. I think the biggest scene is the one were Annie shows Rey to the Donlans: Anja, Donald, Eggers, Annie Kat, Rey. If those six are all voiced by different actors, it'd already be a giant leap for GCFP.

Who has a major part in the comic? Enter, what has been the most useless statistic ever made - until now: gunnerkrigg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=473

[nikita]

Ok, I made a spreadsheet based on preus' statistic: nkdev.de/misc/gcwordcount%20spreadsheet.ods

Turns out if we just manage to fairly distribute the 10 roles with the highest word count, we already got roughly 80% of the whole comic covered. 90% if we do it for the top 20.

Antimony "Annie" Carver
Katerina "Kat" Donlan
Anja Donlan
Reynardine
Coyote
Jones
Sir James Eglamore
Zeta "Zimmy"
Red
Mort

Seraph "Robot" 13
George Parley
Alistair "Aly" Kersaw
Muut
Tea
General Ysengrin
Donald Donlan
William "Willie" Winsbury
Surma Stibnite-Carver
Basil

[Goatmon]

Uh, okay, so I just recorded the entire Forest/Court Meeting scene.

I filled in everything but the female parts. I guess you could consider it my audition as Coyote and Ysengrin. And the Headmaster and Donald, I suppose, although I kind of phoned in their bits.

The quality is rather bad, this was done mostly in several single takes of different parts, and kind of rushed. I'll see about getting a better recording later, preferably getting one with the proper visuals uploaded to the youtube account.

www.box.net/shared/cu8juvb4rj

[Casey]

May 11, 2009 11:40:51 GMT nikita said:

There are many characters that don't appear until much later in the comic - but the central characters are all introduced early on and I think if they are well-distributed we already solved the problem.

I think Coyote, Ysengrin, and Jones would disagree with this statement.

Personally I'm not so much concerned about word count as I am A) having one scene in which three characters are all interacting and all voiced by the same person, which would be odd, and B) having as many people be able to participate, and not have some eager and skilled talent get left behind because of a flawed voting system.

There's another thing to consider as well. Let me paint a very real scenario for you all. You have four people auditioning for a role. You have ten total voters voting on that contest. Nine people vote for person A. Of those nine, five would have voted for person B if person A weren't going to get the role, and four would have voted for person C. And then one person voted for himself, person D. So A wins, but at the same time he wins another role so he turns down this role. Even though person B would have gotten 5 votes if A weren't in the contest, and person C would have gotten 4, person D with his one vote--the one that the public thought was least qualified for the role--would win with his one vote. So clearly, just taking the second person with the most votes in one round does not yield you with the public's second choice.

I mean look: if none of this matters to the majority of you, then I guess I won't worry about it either. I'm just here to facilitate what we as a whole want to do. But just know that if anyone does get bent out of shape, it is me whom they will complain to, and possibly even blame. And I'd rather work out a system to avoid that, before it becomes an issue.

[Goatmon]

Or we could just cast another vote, in the case of someone's absence.

Nothing here has to be etched in stone. Flexibility is very important for projects done by people on the internet who don't know each other in person.

[Aricos]

I think voting again would be the best option if someone turns down a role or if someone is getting too many characters that play in the same scenes and can't sound way different for each character. Just add to the ballot that would follow. Would be more hassle, but it would be fair . (And we all know fairness is totally serious business! Uhu!)

[Casey]

Well with all due respect to your opinions, let me tell you how much work it would be to constantly have more and more votes.... I mean, some day I'd like to be done with voting and actually start working on the project, I don't know about you guys.

Re-consider the possible scenario of someone trying out for Reynardine this week, but wanting to play Coyote more than he wants to play Reynardine. What does he do? Run for Reynardine, win the role, wait three weeks, win Coyote, and then drop Reynardine, forcing a revote? Not to mention that that's three weeks that we wouldn't be able to record Reynardine's lines. This would be a nightmare situation. I mean I'm good at organizing (look around this place) but I'm not a minor deity! And I do this for fun, remember!

I'm working on a proposition that might work, but I'm still waiting for more feedback from more people to know whether the majority of folks recognize that there is a problem. Ugh...

[Aricos]

May 11, 2009 13:54:07 GMT Casey said:

I mean I'm good at organizing (look around this place) but I'm not a minor deity!

But I thought you were a minor deity! Pshaw, fine! No shrine for you then:(!

All kidding aside, I don't really care how it's handled. If you think revoting is going to be a pain in the rear, just drop it. It has to stay awesome for you too Casey . We'll figure it out along the way!

[Casey]

You can still have a shrine, but only if you take a picture of it and send it to me for my scrapbook.

[nikita]

I know, it's not perfect, some major roles do appear late in the comic.

Word count is at least an indicator. Characters that don't talk that much are less likely to talk to other characters possibly voiced by the same person - so basing the decision on word count will help avoiding problem A. This isn't perfect either, but it's a good indicator of whether a role is big or not. It is in fact our only indicator that is not a subjective opinion so we should at least take it into account.
For example: Donald really doesn't talk a lot - telling the actor voicing him that he's not allowed to do another part because he already was a major role would be pretty odd.

What about this small rule set?
- if you have a top 10 role, you can't take another top 20 role
- you can take at most 2 top 20 roles
(whatever top 10 exactly means)

If someone doesn't want his role anymore, we have to make a new voting. edit: hm.. I'll think about this a bit more

[bisected8]

Or maybe we could do it by word count? Say limit every to X amount of words?

[Casey]

Okay, here are what I see as the three separate glaring problems with the system thus far, and my suggestion on how we can fix it.

Problem 1: What to do in ANY circumstance where the person who won a role can't fulfill the role.

Solution: Change the method of voting so that instead of just sending us your top choice, you rank all the choices. If a person has to drop out of a role, changes their mind, or whatever, then we just remove that person's name from all the ballots we recieved and bump everyone else on your ballots up to fill that gap.

So on a ballot with four entrants, you wouldn't just say "For the role of Coyote I choose Adam" but you would say, "For Coyote I choose Adam first, Bob second, Charlie third, and Doug fourth." Then if Adam wins but for whatever reason can't fill the role (maybe he auditioned a month before the voting and now he's stationed in Afghanistan) then your vote would be counted for Bob instead.

Problem 2: I call this problem "Chapter 8 starring Bob, Bob, Bob, and Bob".

Solution: You can audition for whatever you want, but you can't win more than one major role unless the two roles are not in a scene together, or, you can alter your voice so well that a reasonable person couldn't tell it was the same person. I have to balance the situation to be fair to the individual who wants to do more than one major role, the other individuals who want to participate but who might not get any major role because of the first individual, and the project as a whole which, I think we all agree, is the main focus above all else. I am tempted to just say "You can't have more than one major role" but I know that some folks ARE talented enough to pull off more than one without a conflict, and I don't want to cripple their participation. Basically I'm trying to find the solution that ticks off the fewest number of people, while still ending up with a quality product.

Problem 3: Reynardine now, or Coyote later?

Solution: The only solution I see right now to this problem is to go ahead and vote on all the major roles at once. Listen, I was the one who suggested this "rolling audition" structure, and I never even considered some of the problems that it is incurring now. The thing that it was originally designed to do--allow us to being production while still leaving room for people to audition for later parts--isn't really even working because I'm spending so much time trying to get the auditioning and voting process right, I haven't been able to start production. And that's not because it's fundamentally too many hats to wear, it's just that these unforeseen problems have arisen.

I do realize that what I'm proposing is basically to halt voting altogether, go back to us all intensely concentrating on the audition process, getting our major roles completely settled and squared away, and then continuing the current voting process for the minor and bit parts. I do realize, believe me, that this would constitute a major shake-up, and that major shake-ups make some people fear for the long-term viability of the project. The only thing that I can say to that is this: Every bit of structure we have now you've allowed me and trusted me to create, and I'd be asking you to trust me and allow me the same thing again. I came up with these ideas, and now I see flaws in my ideas and I have other ideas that I believe will fix those flaws and make this better for everyone. Again, I'm aware of the aversion people have to sweeping changes. I'm aware of the doubt that can be generated as a result. I'm not seeing any other way, though, if we want to make the system more fair and more foolproof.

[Rasselas]

This is probably a silly suggestion, but how about we put it up for a vote when and if there's a problem of this sort? Yeah, I know it's not really perfect but nothing is ever going to be completely and utterly perfect with no complaints whatsoever. Then again, maybe Casey IS that awesome.

I just wanna say, since I got the role of Anja.. I am SO not even thinking of auditioning for any other major roles. This is going to be quite enough work for me, and besides, I wouldn't want to hog the spotlight for other people. As many people as we can get involved to all have fun with this, that's the goal, right? So I'd say leave it to individual discretion, but then again I'm such a naive optimist.

[Ulysses]

I think casting all the major roles first is the only way to go. Think about a professional film: they don't cast the actors depending on what scene they're on, they cast everyone before they even start filming. If we're going to do this properly we ought to get the roles sorted first.

May 11, 2009 13:29:04 GMT Goatmon said:

Uh, okay, so I just recorded the entire Forest/Court Meeting scene.

Aw, you got there before me I'm still gonna do it though, because it'll be so fun ;D

[p13volution]

I think Casey is worrying too much. I may have only been cast in one fandub that ever saw the light of day, but I know the community. There are hundreds of these same questions being asked every day...

No matter how well you prepare at the end of the these things usually just sort themselves out. Lets say one person gets the role of two major characters... No matter how talented he is, he's going to be more focused on his lines than on auditioning for new characters. The more lines he has, the less time he has for auditions.

Say someone gets the role of Reynardine, but they really wanted to do Coyote, but when it gets time to arrive at that chapter, he's so overcome by his role that he can't audition for Coyote. He's disappointed that he missed out on the character he really wanted, but realizes that he's only one person and would be flooded with lines if he took on another large character.

Personally, I've got a lot of stuff going on in my life and if I don't know them already... I'll soon learn my limits.

[Casey]

I completely accept the possibility that I am worrying too much. I worry, so that you guys don't have to worry. I worry, because I'm a bit of a perfectionist, and this voting scheme was created by me, and so if I feel like I have given you all an inferior product, then I worry that I haven't done my best.

That said...

In my list of problems above, I know that we can solve Problem 1. It is a problem that could occur no matter what else we change or don't change. It is possible that someone will get a role and then lose their internet access, or something else completely unforeseen, and we would need to be able to immediately find a replacement.

The solution that I offered--changing the voting process so that we have a record of who everyone's second choice would be if the first choice has to bow out--is simple as pie to implement, and does not negatively impact anything. I can see no possible down-side to having additional information that Yin and I can draw from in the offchance that we need it. Therefore, I made one of the command decisions that you all are kind enough to trust me to make, and I have updated the voting process. Please turn your attention to the Voting Thread for more information. This change is effective as of this round.

As to the issues of fair distribution etc., I think for the moment I will concede the point that I may be worrying too much. It is something that I think we should still continue to talk about, but I'm not going to consider that to be something that should hold up the whole production.

We do, however, in my opinion, need to decide whether we want to go ahead and cast all the remaining major roles at once. If we do decide we want to do that, then we would need to halt the current round until such time as everyone's had a chance to audition for every major role they want. I think some people are waiting to submit an audition for Ysengrin, Coyote, or Muut, depending on whether or not they win one of the current roles being voted on. If we feel that it is in the best interests of the project to cast all the major roles at once, it is NOT going to bring the whole project to a screeching halt, I promise. I just need for you guys to decide whether we want to do that (cast all the majors at once) and then you guys let me worry about how it will get done.

For the record, my own list of roles that are major, in my estimation, are the following:

Annie
Kat
Reynardine
Eglamore
Anja
Donny
Surma
Coyote
Ysengrin
Mort
Zimmy
Gamma
Muut
Jones

Post your thoughts on casting all of these roles in one round.

[leela]

I'm actually in support of the "vote all the major characters now" plan. That way we are more capable of voting in concern for the compatibility of the voices- how good they sound together.

However, I really don't mind multiple major characters voiced by the same person, as long as they're being voted for the merit of how they fit the character. The characters of Coyote and Reynardine are different enough that I doubt that a Coyote who sounds like Reynardine would win the part. Even if there were some similarities in their voices, it would probably be fine, considering that they are related.

[Casey]

(I should probably mention that those parts that were cast in Round 1, I'm not touching those. Those are settled... I wouldn't dream of taking away someone's role who had already won it. Should it prove necessary to replace one of them due to unavailability or whatever, then we would just re-vote and deal with it.)

[p13volution]

If you ask me, waiting until a character appears to do the audition for that character makes more sense. The longer a person cast to do a certain character has to wait for their character to appear, the longer they have to potentially fall off the face of the earth...

Besides, by then everyone will have become accustomed to how the other characters sound and imagine how a new character will sound in conjunction with the existing cast.

[Casey]

Great so that's one in favor, and one opposed...

[cantabile]

I'm for it, but I do think anyone who would regret not auditioning for one of these characters should take this as their window of opportunity to step forward.

Edit: Especially the roles that would be uncontested if we did vote now.

[duohimura]

Well, I see someone beat me to auditioning for Dr. Disaster, but seeing as our takes on the character are pretty much night and day, I think it'll be fine.

On that note, here's me as Dr. Disaster: www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwErine-fPU

I'm not totally happy with it--there's a couple of spots where I think I could have given a little bit more or I may not have kept my voice constant, and I did have some totally avoidable background noise, but it's a basic idea of how I'd portray the character, and I'm pretty confident that I could clean up any other issues for an actual performance. So, yeah, there you go. No British accent, but I do EPIC YELL most of the lines, so.

Oh, and any advice that doesn't pertain to eliminating background noise would be very much appreciated. Just because we already have a thread for advice on cutting background noise, it seems. Though if anyone knows how to fix a seemingly permanent DC offset, that'd be great--it would be nice to not have to "normalize" everything I record.

[Casey]

Duohimura, your audition has been added to the master list.

I actually had to turn up your audition to hear the DC offset. You did a good job of silencing between sentences. Unfortunately, that's usually an artifact of motherboard architecture... if you have mic inputs both on the front and the back of your PC, try whichever one you're not using now and see if it improves. If it doesn't, and you really want to eliminate that, you could get a basic PCI sound card for dirt cheap to isolate your sound input from the motherboard.

As far as your audition, I usually don't give opinions because I collect these auditions and so I try to stay neutral, but since you specifically asked for feedback... You have a great vocal range, and your energy is good... when you go into higher registers you lose some of that energy though, and honestly I think it's because you're hesitant about getting louder, strangely enough. You could really sell it, though, if you stood up when you did the lines, and don't be afraid to really commit to it... yell, be wacky and loud... it's an over-the-top character and your choice of rhythm and inflection shows that you get that aspect of the character. So sell it all the way! Even if you keep your pitch to a smaller range, you express more energy with the power of the voice than the pitch. Try it! I could be wrong though. P.S. you can submit as many auditions for a single role as you want, and leave them all up to be considered, or just the one(s) you want, or whatever. A lot of people don't take that option, but I think they should, especially if they analyze themselves to death like I do, and think that they could improve their audition.

[Casey]

I just re-listened, and I'll go further to say that when you're doing the "They have a death ray" line, you notice how your whole register is lower, but the energy seems stronger. You have a rich tone to your voice in your speaking register and just above it... it's an intangible quality. But you lose it when you go really high. Play to your voice's strength! Oh and... try out for Ysengrin too... I'll bet that rich tone would come across very, uh, richly in a low growl.

Sorry if this is a lot of information.

Edit: because I can't turn off the "vocal director" side of me now.

Do you hear the basso profundo at the very, very end of the word "peril"? Play to the strengths that you naturally have... Use the bass, be the bass!

2nd Edit: Again at the very very end of "taken to their evil lair!"

[Aricos]

May 11, 2009 20:34:14 GMT duohimura said:

No British accent, but I do EPIC YELL most of the lines, so.

Wow, when you say epic yell, boy do you mean it !
Diving right in: I'm mighty impressed by the total campness and epic yell ratios . Your Dr. Disaster sounds hilarious and fun!

What is less impressive is how your voice jumps up from time to time (I don't mean in loudness as much as I mean the other thing. Pitch? Is it pitch? I think pitch is what I'm looking for?). It gives a bit of a... I guess 'loss of conviction'? Makes it sounds like Dr. Disaster isn't taking himself too seriously as the sentence progresses, while in my opinion he always takes himself serious no matter what.

Just go all out and BE Dr. Disaster for serious business man !

Edit: By the way, instead of going UP with your voice, try going DOWN. Like Casey said, be the bass