[2570] "It's unfair!"

[imaginaryfriend]

Life is unfair. I do understand being "jealous" that some people have more important stories in the Gunnerkrigg Universe by reason of birth or whatever, though. Some people are main characters while others are immutably cast as supporting roles at best.  

[aline]

It's like me saying since I have ADHD nobody should use their executive function. Just imagine if everyone was as entitled as those ridiculous people.
Dude. WTF. People being able to do stuff other people aren't able to do describes the entirety of human diversity.
With a bit of collaboration it gives birth to so many great things!
But no, you decided you were going to sulk and hide from it. Fantastic. I can see the general fairness of the world increasing the more you scowl, Michelle, keep at it.

[ghostiet]

Of course the Court's bullshit is all because of basic jealousy.

[theonethatgotaway]

Yessss, there it is! Good one, Rey, show Shell the hypocrisy. "It's not fair". Was it fair when Annie had to take her own mother into the ether, just because she was born with it? I wonder what they'd make of Kat, a purely scientific person, but one that can do some freakydeaky stuff.

[flowsthead]

I'm pretty sure Renard would also find it unfair that he wasn't born human to have a chance to be with Surma.

[noone3]

Jan 10, 2022 8:17:50 GMT aline said:

WTF. People being able to do stuff other people aren't able to do describes the entirety of human diversity.

Well... in this case its more like some people are able to cause a massive destruction of a city enraging some cannibalistic trickster deity, and you can only stand and watch as the world burn around You. Guess she might feel slightly disgruntled.

Also it is unfair I like Shell's nose more and more with every angry face she makes.

[Tenjen]

He kills people when he takes them over and is trapped in a doll owned by the daughter of his beloved humanoid fire elemental whose life force was drained by having said daughter

[King Mir]

Jan 10, 2022 8:41:30 GMT ghostiet said:

Of course the Court's bullshit is all because of basic jealousy.

Probably better for it. The bullshit you get from fighting over grander ideas is much more deadly.

[mochakimono]

Jan 10, 2022 8:17:50 GMT aline said:

It's like me saying since I have ADHD nobody should use their executive function. Just imagine if everyone was as entitled as those ridiculous people.

Indeed! I'm disabled, so the only way to make the world a better place is if I take a golf club to everyone else's knees. It's only fair!

[antiyonder]

Jan 10, 2022 8:41:30 GMT ghostiet said:

Of course the Court's bullshit is all because of basic jealousy.

Also their approach against possible threats whether founded or not?

Like with Reynard, feels less like a group of adults making an understandable mistake and more like a kid either sticking their finger in a plug socket or a kid teasing a caged zoo creature and being surprised that their stupidity gets them hurt.

I think some people would also apply the term, self fulfilling prophecy in that regard.

[blahzor]

life is unfair to Coyote it gives other people powers he can just copy and at maximum levels of control of it and he can't die except the time he choose to die knowing he'll just come back later

[rafk]

Yeah, we're doing X-Men, yay.

Both sides have a point. It's easy to say "life's unfair" and go off humming about jealousy when you're the privileged one, but as others have also pointed out in this thread, there's no gain in bringing down people with special talents (even genetic talents) just because not everyone has them. There is no easy way around it, but the ones privileged to be born with power do need to watch out to avoid tyranny over the "ordinary" people.


It's very understandable for the Court to be concerned about what an etheric being like Coyote could do to the world everyone else lives in with very little ability to defend against. Just because the Court as we've seen them are largely assholes doesn't mean they have no point.

It's like... in the world of Harry Potter, if you're a muggle and find out about the Wizarding World, is it jealousy to think they're dangerous and that "muggles" need a way to protect themselves against and limit the magic users, or just good sense?

[dawolf]

Thank you Rey. This is such a stupid point of view from Shell.

So what, if you aren't intelligent, it means you can kill all the intelligent people? Not everyone is equally sporty, or musically gifted, or artistic.

And that's fine.

It would be a very boring world if everyone had identical talents.

[todd]

Jan 10, 2022 11:33:54 GMT rafk said:

It's very understandable for the Court to be concerned about what an etheric being like Coyote could do to the world everyone else lives in with very little ability to defend against. Just because the Court as we've seen them are largely assholes doesn't mean they have no point.

Unfortunately for the Court, I get the impression from this page, and the ones preceding it, that the root of the Court's response to the ether isn't rooted in the damage that beings like Coyote and Loup can do, but in: a) it messes with our world-view and b) they get to have it and we don't. The Court's certainly in no position to be pointing fingers at Coyote and Loup, certainly, given that they've engaged in murder, blackmail, deception, etc.

Of course, this is Shell's statement; we don't know if the rest of the Court shares her motivations, or by how much.

Incidentally, the revelation of what the Court's goal is - to destroy the ether - may be another sign that we're approaching the end of the story. (Though I think we've got at least one more volume to go after this one. For one thing, Tom would have most likely told us if this was the last volume.)

[Per]

Jan 10, 2022 13:01:24 GMT todd said:

Incidentally, the revelation of what the Court's goal is - to destroy the ether

Where was that said?

[ctso74]

Jan 10, 2022 13:30:17 GMT Per said:

Jan 10, 2022 13:01:24 GMT todd said:

Incidentally, the revelation of what the Court's goal is - to destroy the ether

Where was that said?

Yeah. I was under the impression, they wanted to go "across the ocean" to form a new Court. More than likely leaving the Forest behind. No harm but to themselves, but...
It's never good to act out of jealousy or ego, and I doubt the Court is just going to go. Aata said they needed Coyote's power, and Shell said they'd get it any way they could. That might mean a good number of things; Rey, Annie, the Forest Elves, the Ether Collectors they built. Following ego and envy will often lead to disaster. Sometimes, not for the prideful or envious.

[antiyonder]

Jan 10, 2022 13:01:24 GMT todd said:

Jan 10, 2022 11:33:54 GMT rafk said:

It's very understandable for the Court to be concerned about what an etheric being like Coyote could do to the world everyone else lives in with very little ability to defend against. Just because the Court as we've seen them are largely assholes doesn't mean they have no point.

Unfortunately for the Court, I get the impression from this page, and the ones preceding it, that the root of the Court's response to the ether isn't rooted in the damage that beings like Coyote and Loup can do, but in: a) it messes with our world-view and b) they get to have it and we don't. The Court's certainly in no position to be pointing fingers at Coyote and Loup, certainly, given that they've engaged in murder, blackmail, deception, etc.

Yep. Not sure if these members of The Court believed in the Gods of various religions, but between how they treat fellow people and my hopefully valid analogue of teasing say a caged lion and being offended they were attacked?

Well even if they aren't mustache stroking villains, they still feel less like people say concerned for their fellow humans and more like people dreading that they ultimately will get what they deserve.

[maxptc]

Ah yes the life is suppose to be unfair and you're just jealous argument. I can feel the wealthy business owners in my bloodline nodding in aggrement.

If you're on Reys side in this argument, try subbing inherented wealth and social class into the place of magic. Just because someone is jealous doesn't mean they are wrong about the situation, and just because life isn't fair doesn't mean people are wrong to fight for fairness.

[Bandolute]

Jan 10, 2022 14:54:13 GMT maxptc said:

Ah yes the life is suppose to be unfair and you're just jealous argument. I can feel the wealthy business owners in my bloodline nodding in aggrement.

If you're on Reys side in this argument, try subbing inherented wealth and social class into the place of magic. Just because someone is jealous doesn't mean they are wrong about the situation, and just because life isn't fair doesn't mean people are wrong to fight for fairness.

Wealth can be redistributed, and in theory granted evenly to everyone. It's an arbitrary system created by humans to suppress and control other humans. It doesn't really fit what's going on with the ether.

But you can't "redistribute" natural talent or the physical circumstances of one's birth like health, and while it's largely a matter of inheritance and luck, there's not an easy solution on the table here that doesn't involve magic eugenics to even the playing field. This comparison fits better in my opinion.

Though I don't think it's wrong to be envious or to try to replicate the abilities of etheric creatures, I think they're approaching this situation from a bad place. Even in your class metaphor, the goal of wealth redistribution isn't to make everyone equally poor, it's to make sure everyone's needs are covered and no one is exploited. I don't think the court is concerned with injustice as much as it wants to be the boot on the neck of reality.

[philman]

Jan 10, 2022 15:16:30 GMT Bandolute said:

Jan 10, 2022 14:54:13 GMT maxptc said:

Ah yes the life is suppose to be unfair and you're just jealous argument. I can feel the wealthy business owners in my bloodline nodding in aggrement.

If you're on Reys side in this argument, try subbing inherented wealth and social class into the place of magic. Just because someone is jealous doesn't mean they are wrong about the situation, and just because life isn't fair doesn't mean people are wrong to fight for fairness.

Wealth can be redistributed, and in theory granted evenly to everyone. It's an arbitrary system created by humans to suppress and control other humans. It doesn't really fit what's going on with the ether.

But you can't "redistribute" natural talent or the physical circumstances of one's birth like health, and while it's largely a matter of inheritance and luck, there's not an easy solution on the table here that doesn't involve magic eugenics to even the playing field. This comparison fits better in my opinion.

Though I don't think it's wrong to be envious or to try to replicate the abilities of etheric creatures, I think they're approaching this situation from a bad place. Even in your class metaphor, the goal of wealth redistribution isn't to make everyone equally poor, it's to make sure everyone's needs are covered and no one is exploited. I don't think the court is concerned with injustice as much as it wants to be the boot on the neck of reality.

Exactly, wealth can be redistributed, etheric talents cannot. I don't think it is unreasonable for people to be be annoyed at being accused of jealousy for wondering about the dangers of etheric beings such as Coyote just saying "trust me" when asked if that unequal power will ever be misused. I am unsure if the Court wants to be the power with the boot on the neck of reality, or are just very worried about that power existing unchecked.

[antiyonder]

Jan 10, 2022 15:27:20 GMT philman said:

Jan 10, 2022 15:16:30 GMT Bandolute said:

Wealth can be redistributed, and in theory granted evenly to everyone. It's an arbitrary system created by humans to suppress and control other humans. It doesn't really fit what's going on with the ether.

But you can't "redistribute" natural talent or the physical circumstances of one's birth like health, and while it's largely a matter of inheritance and luck, there's not an easy solution on the table here that doesn't involve magic eugenics to even the playing field. This comparison fits better in my opinion.

Though I don't think it's wrong to be envious or to try to replicate the abilities of etheric creatures, I think they're approaching this situation from a bad place. Even in your class metaphor, the goal of wealth redistribution isn't to make everyone equally poor, it's to make sure everyone's needs are covered and no one is exploited. I don't think the court is concerned with injustice as much as it wants to be the boot on the neck of reality.

Exactly, wealth can be redistributed, etheric talents cannot. I don't think it is unreasonable for people to be be annoyed at being accused of jealousy for wondering about the dangers of etheric beings such as Coyote just saying "trust me" when asked if that unequal power will ever be misused. I am unsure if the Court wants to be the power with the boot on the neck of reality, or are just very worried about that power existing unchecked.

Barring the "strawman has a point", I'd say it would be easier to side with the Court if the ones currently being referred to had varying degrees of morals and some weren't involved with treating other people horribly.

Like I said above it feels less like they care about protecting their students and more are fearful of karmic retribution for being scummy people. Intentionally evil or merely selfish.


That said, my take on the "Life is unfair" and it's validity as a response I think varies.

Sometimes pissing off other people might not be avoidable. Whether the statement is legit or a cop out I think depends other whether upsetting someone is merely a side effect of your goal or if you act with intents to antagonize someone.

[maxptc]

I have seen nothing in this comic to suggest magic powers can't be redistributed, in fact redistributing powers has been a theme in this comic. Nor is it something that you can't gain later if you dont have them, as shown by glyphs, zimmy, computers and magic tattoos.


Look at ether powers more like weapons. Some people are born with handguns, and some people no guns, while others have a nuclear arsenal. This is not a system I would be content to leave alone, if I was in this world. Who's right in this type of scenario will likely be determined by who your loyal to and what your postion in the system is.

[Gemminie]

Annie and Shell continue to discuss Aata as if he isn't even there. (He isn't.) Annie asks Shell a question that's been bothering me and hasn't been sufficiently answered: why did Aata get kicked out of the Shadow Men just for using the Ether? Shell's answer still isn't complete: some rule or other. She's implying (but not directly stating, so this could be wrong) that the Shadow Men have some kind of rule stating that only people without Ether powers can join, and he was only allowed in provisionally if he could refrain from using his Ether powers. Who made that rule? Why does that rule exist? These questions remain.

Annie gets a bit mad here. Shell believes Aata was kicked out with good reason – but he used the Ether to save Shell's life; she'd be dead if he hadn't gotten himself kicked out. Annie seemingly doesn't understand why Shell still thinks Aata's expulsion was just, considering it was a trade for her life.

Shell gets a bit mad too. She still believes in the project, because she still believes it's unfair that some people have Ether powers while others don't.

Renard then cuts to the heart of the matter. Some people have amazing talents in STEM, the arts, athletics, etc. Why is that fair, but it's not fair that some have etheric talents? Shell pushes back slightly with a petulant ad hominem – Renard's an etheric being, so it's easy for him to say that life's unfair. But Renard throws it right back: is this not merely a form of jealousy/envy? (I consider it envy if you want something that someone else has that you can obtain too, and jealousy if it's something that by its nature has to be taken from them in order for you to have it. You can be envious of somebody's clothes or big-screen TV, because you could also obtain similar things, but you'd be jealous if you wished you had someone's girlfriend/boyfriend. Whether the Court intends to take the Ether away from everyone else or merely separate themselves from it isn't very clear right now.)

[basser]

I think folks are taking things too literally again. Don't take Shell as the voice of the Court, she's not necessarily holding all the information. Biggest thing is that she doesn't seem to understand the actual relationship humans have with the ether - remember humans aren't just hapless pawns in this world, they're capable of shaping the entirety of etheric existence with simple belief. Aata must know this considering he was able to believe himself into a bouquet of magic flowers. (Or, more likely, he went around doing bodhisattva stuff until enough people believed he was magic for it to become true.) Shell either doesn't know this or doesn't think it's an adequate trade-off.

If humans could work together in this world they could depower Coyote just by collectively believing he's a normal coyote. But getting everyone to cooperate that well is futile. Just like how Aata can deny his magic bouquet status all he wants but at the end of the day if people believe he can heal a magic stab wound then he can. So, to prevent the issue of people being able to will actual literal monsters into existence, they gotta find a way to control the human ability to shape the ether. They can't "destroy" the ether because it's not a physical thing. All they can do is shape it into a form that doesn't keep popping out Coyotes. I suspect they need a powerful source of ether in much the same way you need a powerful memetic message if you're gonna start a propaganda campaign.

At the same time it seems like Kat's relationship with the ether is probably very close to what they're going for - she has her "make everything boring" powers which renders her effectively immune to etheric dangers. Girl bops death gods and dgaf. Whether this power is innate or a result of her robot childrens' belief in her is unclear. I think it might be trying to imply that even if the Court could create a version of humanity which doesn't believe in things like Coyote, they'd still wind up with random uncontrollable monsters, cause a bunch of literal robots were able to turn a teenage girl into a hyperdimensional robot goddess through the power of believing the words of their Robot Messiah. It would seem that any form of sapience will shape the ether, even sufficiently advanced machines.

It's possible even that different types of sapience will create different ethers. We could take Kat's odd relationship with the human ether to be a result of her godhood arising in the robot ether - since robots and humans have fundamentally different cognition the concept of what Kat is can't quite fit within a human framework, which manifests as her breaking the human ether in various ways.

Overall I think it makes more sense to view all this as a loose metaphor for religion vs science and how even with a wholly "rational" populace you're still going to wind up with immensely powerful forces borne of collective belief, even if those forces no longer look like the angels and demons of old religions, because human-style sapience fundamentally requires a shared belief system. And in a world where those belief systems can manifest physically you'll always have gods and monsters because people are always going to deify things and fear the unknown.

[fia]

Yeah, I'm in the "no one's totally right here" camp. They have conflicting visions about what would make the world better, and that's par for the course. My own view is that it's very hard to know what would actually make the world better without understanding a lot of what affects what and why things are the way they are, and so we're stuck in this position of ignorance. I think all of the characters of GC are effectively in this position – a lot of partial knowledge. Even the Court as a collective has a lot of partial knowledge.

It's especially tricky because you can't face an Aata or a Llanwellyn or a Kat or an Annie or a Coyote or a Zimmy and say, "Oh, you don't know enough!" They all know an impressive amount. (Coyote most of all, I suppose). But a lot still isn't everything.

[Bandolute]

Jan 10, 2022 16:45:46 GMT maxptc said:

I have seen nothing in this comic to suggest magic powers can't be redistributed, in fact redistributing powers has been a theme in this comic. Nor is it something that you can't gain later if you dont have them, as shown by glyphs, zimmy, computers and magic tattoos.


Look at ether powers more like weapons. Some people are born with handguns, and some people no guns, while others have a nuclear arsenal. This is not a system I would be content to leave alone, if I was in this world. Who's right in this type of scenario will likely be determined by who your loyal to and what your postion in the system is.

I'm all for giving everyone access to magic computers and other etherically derived technology or whatever (up to/including just granting people magic powers without a tech proxy), but that wouldn't be "redistribution of etheric abilities". Redistribution would, for example, be to strip Annie of her fire and pass the embers out among the people, which is equally absurd to me as attempting to distribute someone's 20/20 vision. At least in my view, wealth is ill-suited as a metaphor for superpowers.

If we're arguing for "etheric accessibility," and I understand the distinction between this and the wealth metaphor might not be meaningful to some, then I think that's at least in the interest of fairness in theory. That would be more like "equal access to magic" and less like "take someone's magic and pass it around". To follow the vision comparison, it would be like giving everyone who needs them a pair of glasses.


But I do not think that is what the court is after. They seem to be more interested in making sure no one has better vision than average, not in raising everyone's quality of vision. And so they seem very sinister to me.

"Magic is Weapons" DOES seem to be more or less the position the court is taking, so I definitely think it's more applicable to the situation than the wealth metaphor, if only because it illustrates their philosophy, not because I think it's right. They're definitely calling for unilateral disarmament. But it breaks down pretty much instantly if you look at how differently everyone's magic presents.  Yeah, fire superpowers is a weapon. Zimmy is dangerous. But what about the ability to communicate with animals? What about being able to create a shield at will? Should elves be prevented from manipulating plant matter? Should they be prevented from existing at all, to make the world safe from their abilities? Because, in the view of the majority of sapient humanoids who can't do magic, it's more fair? Do we cull fairies, who wouldn't exist without the ether? Restrict the uplifted intelligence exhibited by the Forest's beasts, so they're no different from the average animal? 

If all they want to do is be normal, and live someplace where etheric stuff can't effect their lives anymore, they're still destabilizing the etheric world to do it, and they still intend to USE THE ETHER to do it, so I don't feel great about their prospects, there, either.

[mturtle7]

Hehehe, I am LOVING the simultaneous simplicity and complexity of this whole argument. I have lots of my own opinions on it, which I doubt will be directly addressed in the comic, but I still really like the way that Tom is handling it...

A bunch of people have made some good connections (and/or broken some imperfect connections) of the Ether's role in this argument to, say, social class or (dis)ability. I think there's another important piece to the social context behind all this, though, and that's imperialism. With their general focus on European traditions of technology, urbanization, rationality, and bureaucracy, and their specific attitude towards nature and "savage, uncivilized" animals/people, it would be foolish to ignore the possible influence which old imperialism might have on the Court's perspective on the Ether. Obviously, there's no one-to-one relationship between the Ether and IRL social issues, but...well, let's see.

Yes, the Ether grants individual people powers, but it's important to note that it doesn't really operate on a biological basis, or an economic one, but rather a cultural one. That's really in the nature of Ether, after all: as Coyote pointed out, it only creates/does things which are reflected in human mythological/religious/folkloric traditions. Annie's fire powers are a family traditions, passed down from her ancient forefathers(or rather, foremothers) due to the connection they share with a European fire elemental (the idea of elementals originate very specifically from the European Rennaissance, after all). While it's not been explicitly stated, it's been implied that Anja's powers stem from old traditions of wizardry, and she's just applied those old hand signals & ritual patterns to the new patterns of technology. Perhaps most interestingly, Aata's own powers are obviously extremely rooted in East Asian Buddhist traditions, and yet Shell really goes out of her way to downplay that, implying in a rather unconvincing way that, for example, the term "bodhisattva" is merely an optional term that you *could* apply to him. And different psychopomps come for people (or shadow people) based on their culture of origin.

I strongly suspect that what the Court wants isn't so much an Ether which is fair & equal...or rather, they do want that, but it's more of a side effect of what they really want, which is an Ether which they, as a society, can control. They want to erase the origins & distinctive traits of Etheric powers, so that instead of Etheric power being dependent on the culture one is born into, it's dependent on your place in the Court hierarchy, on how much access you have to their machines & facilities.

One question I'd love to have answered is whether Parley or Smitty would be allowed to use their powers if they joined the Shadow Men. Those two have relatively "generic" powers, which come more from modern, 21st-century ideas of psychic powers and other pseudo-scientific "abilities" more than anything else...would the Shadow Men see these as categorically different from Aata's abilities, even slightly? Personally, I think they would...they might argue such abilities are more "rational" in nature than others, but again, it's really all about control, and the erasure of any power that comes from messy stuff like culture.

[mordekai]

You know, if Aata is similar to a Bodhisattva, he got his powers thanks to training and meditation... technically, anybody willing to put the same effort as he did could do the same....

Also... damn, Arizona is ugly! When she opens her mouth to shout, she looks like an angry muppet!.

[mturtle7]

Jan 10, 2022 20:18:58 GMT mordekai said:

You know, if Aata is similar to a Bodhisattva, he got his powers thanks to training and meditation... technically, anybody willing to put the same effort as he did could do the same....

I suspect that becoming a Bodhisattva is a bit like training with a blinker stone, in that while it does require training and hard work, there are also some who couldn't develop the same abilities, no matter how hard they try, simply due to the way their brains are wired. Really, it's a lot like plenty of mundane skills in that way! ...Which leads us back to the point which Renard is making, about jealousy...

[stevecharb]

Under no circumstances can this person be allowed to acquire etheric abilities.

I've read enough Spider-Man comics to know.