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Post by sleepcircle on Jan 13, 2022 6:30:17 GMT
on the other hand having special powers doesn't get you out of being tortured for 10 years by the shadow men as they run experiments on you if it's "for the crime of murder," when renard first possessed the dude, he didn't actually know it'd kill him Oh, he couldn't be sure, but he had a pretty good idea it would. If I get handed a gun and proceed to shoot a couple animals which then all die, it's not exactly far-fetched to believe the same would happen to a human. Huh, did he try it on animals first? I must've forgotten that. Nevertheless, torturing sentient creatures for 10 years is probably not high up on the list of ideal government organization traits. I mean, basically all that was asked for was "evidence for why people on the forum were treating the Shadow Men as dangerous/proof that they were less than completely neutral," and I believe this counts. |
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Post by aline on Jan 13, 2022 12:10:27 GMT
My point is that I don't understand what makes the ether inherently unfair. The assumption seems to be that a world with ether in it is inherently more unfair than a ether-free world like ours. That's what Shell is saying. I dispute that because the laws of physics aren't "fair" either. Yes, strictly speaking they apply the same way to everyone, but outside of a lab with controlled conditions, the laws a physics will still cause disasters that blindly kill some people and not others. I don't see why an ether-free world should be more fair than a world with ether. It would be one thing if they were talking only about super powerful creatures like Loup and saying "we can't deal with that" but they think things like Anja's computer or Eglamore's wards, or the elves' tree magic are unfair too and shouldn't exist, I just don't see any logic in that. Why not? I agree. The difference between a world with and one without Ether is not that one is fair and the other is not. The difference is predictability. The aforementioned natural disasters obey the laws of nature and can be predicted, given the necessary mathematical model, measurements, computing power etc. But Etheric effects? Not so much. That is not true, we have seen many times that the ether follows its own laws, hence how Kat can channel it through her magical computer. She was able to study the arrow and infer enough to use it to do something completely different than its primary use, and give the robots ownership of their new body by means of a magical contract. She also understood how to bring the golems to life despite their etheric nature. The ether has its own logic, and we've seen many people be taught how things work in the unseen world. The Court even has ether collecting stations. That means they can detect it, channel it and store it, which you can only do if you know how the ether reacts to certain things. The main difference /issue seems to be "we can't explain why that happens / that should be impossible" (which I also have a problem with because that's true of many actual real world things too but whatever, it's the premisse of the comic). Surma knew she'd die. That was predictable (by someone who understands how the ether works), but not explainable in medical terms. |
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Post by lurkerbot on Jan 14, 2022 0:56:20 GMT
Oh, he couldn't be sure, but he had a pretty good idea it would. If I get handed a gun and proceed to shoot a couple animals which then all die, it's not exactly far-fetched to believe the same would happen to a human. Huh, did he try it on animals first? I must've forgotten that. <snip> all but confirms that Renard experimented with other creatures before using the small portion of body possession power Coyote gave him on Daniel, Sivo, and a certain plush toy. |
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Post by maxptc on Jan 14, 2022 4:33:08 GMT
On further reflection, I question if the older higher-ups of the Court have the personal courage to relocate to outer space or some other dimension even if they were reasonably sure it was perfectly safe. It's probably a destination that's a lot more boring. maybe Shell's here to recruit for Shadow Men II, Electric Boogaloo I should have said, "Shadow 2 Men." What a great point. The Court has remained very static from what we've seen. Massive change doesnt sound right, but a different physical location with a different version of the arrow trap protecting them seems more the Court's speed. |
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Post by Dvandaemon on Jan 14, 2022 8:35:48 GMT
Ah yes the life is suppose to be unfair and you're just jealous argument. I can feel the wealthy business owners in my bloodline nodding in aggrement. If you're on Reys side in this argument, try subbing inherented wealth and social class into the place of magic. Just because someone is jealous doesn't mean they are wrong about the situation, and just because life isn't fair doesn't mean people are wrong to fight for fairness. Not even that works because wealth and class are arbitrary, contextual, constructed things, not intrinsic qualities. It's completely incomparable because magic and status aren't actually comparable things, nice try though. What Shell is upset about are actual laws of physics being optional. Like there are some beings that can just decide to eschew cause to create any effect they desire, which is understandable to dread existentially, but still sounds petulant when summarized as unfair. It sounds like an endeavor to godhood, when the means they have are still spectacular, and definitely doesn't seem as altruistic as what they try and frame it as. Yeah, we're doing X-Men, yay. What people seem often to not mention when they talk about x-men is that people don't fear and hate mutants just because they are different, they fear and hate mutants because they can be and often are dangerous. We have mutants that can litterally change the rules of nature on a whim, can control weather on a large scale, Professor X is the greatest telepath in the world, He can posses and mind control people even at a distance (IIRC he did mind-control the President of the United States in one of the movies) and most people can't do a thing about that. How it is rational not be terrified by powers like those? But noooo, it is just basic jealousy.  ... OTOH, if someone is more sporty, more musical or more artistically gifted than the average there is little risk for him to destroy your house/town/planet on a whim. With etheric powers that is a distinct possibilty, and of late more than just a possibility. This argument still has a major flaw because it runs on the same logic as any other prejudice. "They're a potential threat to us that must be curtailed and policed" is a flimsy premise. Coyote is a standout example, clearly an exception to the general power level of etheric beings. I think the webcomic Strong Female Protagonist summed it up well; they had an anti metahuman group that seemed justified because of supervillains, but mostly went after innocent and harmless civilians with powers they couldn't even defend themselves with. How many people are actual threats versus just being different? It's clearly not being framed as a danger here, just an issue of someone being able to do something they can't. Trying to make it about security seems misguided at best, deliberately dishonest at worse. |
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Post by Polyhymnia on Jan 14, 2022 12:52:05 GMT
I still get the impression from all of this that the Court's objections to the ether is "it's scientifically impossible", and that the fact that etheric beings abuse their power is secondary. It threatens their theories about how the universe works, and so they want to get rid of it to keep it from frustrating them. Ah, so they’re Auditors. |
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Post by maxptc on Jan 14, 2022 14:16:02 GMT
Ah yes the life is suppose to be unfair and you're just jealous argument. I can feel the wealthy business owners in my bloodline nodding in aggrement. If you're on Reys side in this argument, try subbing inherented wealth and social class into the place of magic. Just because someone is jealous doesn't mean they are wrong about the situation, and just because life isn't fair doesn't mean people are wrong to fight for fairness. Not even that works because wealth and class are arbitrary, contextual, constructed things, not intrinsic qualities. It's completely incomparable because magic and status aren't actually comparable things, nice try though. What Shell is upset about are actual laws of physics being optional. Like there are some beings that can just decide to eschew cause to create any effect they desire, which is understandable to dread existentially, but still sounds petulant when summarized as unfair. It sounds like an endeavor to godhood, when the means they have are still spectacular, and definitely doesn't seem as altruistic as what they try and frame it as. What people seem often to not mention when they talk about x-men is that people don't fear and hate mutants just because they are different, they fear and hate mutants because they can be and often are dangerous. We have mutants that can litterally change the rules of nature on a whim, can control weather on a large scale, Professor X is the greatest telepath in the world, He can posses and mind control people even at a distance (IIRC he did mind-control the President of the United States in one of the movies) and most people can't do a thing about that. How it is rational not be terrified by powers like those? But noooo, it is just basic jealousy. ... OTOH, if someone is more sporty, more musical or more artistically gifted than the average there is little risk for him to destroy your house/town/planet on a whim. With etheric powers that is a distinct possibilty, and of late more than just a possibility. This argument still has a major flaw because it runs on the same logic as any other prejudice. "They're a potential threat to us that must be curtailed and policed" is a flimsy premise. Coyote is a standout example, clearly an exception to the general power level of etheric beings. I think the webcomic Strong Female Protagonist summed it up well; they had an anti metahuman group that seemed justified because of supervillains, but mostly went after innocent and harmless civilians with powers they couldn't even defend themselves with. How many people are actual threats versus just being different? It's clearly not being framed as a danger here, just an issue of someone being able to do something they can't. Trying to make it about security seems misguided at best, deliberately dishonest at worse. I'm not saying they are the same things, its just that Reys argument/postion is bad. A lot of things some people think are unfair or unjust can be wrote off as "you're just jealous" if we allow that to be a valid argument. The Shadowmen are jealous, but that alone doesn't mean they are wrong or that the system is fair. Also while not genetic, wealth and class still have a lot to do with who your parents are and where they are from, as well as how much power you have. I'd say they are comparable to magic, just not in an apples to apples way. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 14, 2022 16:27:44 GMT
I agree. The difference between a world with and one without Ether is not that one is fair and the other is not. The difference is predictability. The aforementioned natural disasters obey the laws of nature and can be predicted, given the necessary mathematical model, measurements, computing power etc. But Etheric effects? Not so much. That is not true, we have seen many times that the ether follows its own laws, hence how Kat can channel it through her magical computer. She was able to study the arrow and infer enough to use it to do something completely different than its primary use, and give the robots ownership of their new body by means of a magical contract. She also understood how to bring the golems to life despite their etheric nature. The ether has its own logic, and we've seen many people be taught how things work in the unseen world. The Court even has ether collecting stations. That means they can detect it, channel it and store it, which you can only do if you know how the ether reacts to certain things. The main difference /issue seems to be "we can't explain why that happens / that should be impossible" (which I also have a problem with because that's true of many actual real world things too but whatever, it's the premisse of the comic). Surma knew she'd die. That was predictable (by someone who understands how the ether works), but not explainable in medical terms. Hmm. Yes and no. The things you cite are all correct of course, but what do you make of Coyote? No matter how sophisticated and refined our instruments are, they'll be useless when there are beings who can give themselves new powers and abilities just because they think they ought to have them. And the way Etheric beings and phenomena come about in the first place - if we follow Coyote's theory (which, as we should not forget, is still just a theory) and the hints about Kat's ascension to their logical conclusion, then anything that happens at any time could bring about an event that leads one or more sentient beings to believe something supernatural exists, and this belief is then upon their death fed into the Ether which makes it real. But not only real from this point on, but retroactively as well, meaning causes for current effects can lie in the future, impossible to perceive for both us and our instruments. Butterfly effect going forward and backward in time, while what goes backward also influences the future... And in my opinion, this makes the Ether unpredictable, unless we assume that any sentient beings' thoughts and decisions are wholly deterministic. Then a world with Ether should in theory be predictable... but a human brain still wouldn't be able to disentangle this mess.
EDIT: Perhaps Omega is the non-human brain designed to achieve this.
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Post by warrl on Jan 14, 2022 20:48:02 GMT
When I was a computer programmer doing financial-system stuff, I liked auditors. If there were any holes in my work that crooks could take advantage of, I wanted those holes found by auditors rather than crooks. (I was told that this wasn't exactly the most common attitude, though.) |
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Post by Polyhymnia on Jan 15, 2022 2:13:00 GMT
When I was a computer programmer doing financial-system stuff, I liked auditors. If there were any holes in my work that crooks could take advantage of, I wanted those holes found by auditors rather than crooks. (I was told that this wasn't exactly the most common attitude, though.) That seems quite logical. The auditors I had in mind were of a more…celestial variety? discworld.fandom.com/wiki/Auditors_of_Reality |
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Post by Dvandaemon on Jan 16, 2022 3:19:44 GMT
I'm not saying they are the same things, its just that Reys argument/postion is bad. A lot of things some people think are unfair or unjust can be wrote off as "you're just jealous" if we allow that to be a valid argument. The Shadowmen are jealous, but that alone doesn't mean they are wrong or that the system is fair. Also while not genetic, wealth and class still have a lot to do with who your parents are and where they are from, as well as how much power you have. I'd say they are comparable to magic, just not in an apples to apples way. But those distinctions make that a flimsy premise. Wealth and class are circumstantial and contextual, which means they can be overturned within their own systems, don't apply at all outside of them. Economics and societies aren't universal or intrinsic things. They're all constructed systems. Meanwhile, as far as we can tell, etheric ability is intrinsic, it's not something anyone really granted, it's not (afawk consciously) a socially granted privilege. Complaining about etheric ability is like complaining about not being something you're not. It can be justly called jealousy if your only animosity is resentment that someone has something you don't like say, having claws or fur or wings or gills. Life isn't fair, and whining about it, literally ripping it apart at the seams to make some aspect of it go your way, can't really be called anything righteous. The Court seems self sufficient enough not to have to rely on etheric beings, but it seems as petty as it is purported to be noble. |
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Post by maxptc on Jan 16, 2022 3:54:34 GMT
I'm not saying they are the same things, its just that Reys argument/postion is bad. A lot of things some people think are unfair or unjust can be wrote off as "you're just jealous" if we allow that to be a valid argument. The Shadowmen are jealous, but that alone doesn't mean they are wrong or that the system is fair. Also while not genetic, wealth and class still have a lot to do with who your parents are and where they are from, as well as how much power you have. I'd say they are comparable to magic, just not in an apples to apples way. But those distinctions make that a flimsy premise. Wealth and class are circumstantial and contextual, which means they can be overturned within their own systems, don't apply at all outside of them. Economics and societies aren't universal or intrinsic things. They're all constructed systems. Meanwhile, as far as we can tell, etheric ability is intrinsic, it's not something anyone really granted, it's not (afawk consciously) a socially granted privilege. Complaining about etheric ability is like complaining about not being something you're not. It can be justly called jealousy if your only animosity is resentment that someone has something you don't like say, having claws or fur or wings or gills. Life isn't fair, and whining about it, literally ripping it apart at the seams to make some aspect of it go your way, can't really be called anything righteous. The Court seems self sufficient enough not to have to rely on etheric beings, but it seems as petty as it is purported to be noble. But magic can be a granted privilege as well, both in the Court and the Forest. Coyete can give away power as he chooses, and the Court can use technology, tattoos and wards. It can be a granted power, by the ether or other forces. Much like much like class seemed intrinsic to nobles of the past. I dunno, maybe I'm alone in seeing class and social status as comparable to magical status in stories, but I stand by thinking they are thematically similar. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Jan 16, 2022 5:08:00 GMT
You know, on reflection, I think one of the most damning piece of evidence against Shell's (and Aata's) whole argument is that, as far as we know, etheric beings (and/or humans with etheric talents) aren't currently ruling the world - ordinary humans are. From what we've seen, most etheric beings & people in the Gunnerverse live in secret, either isolated from or simply unacknowledged by the rest of the outside world. Plenty of individuals may have very concrete ties to the ether, but on a really big, societal, level, I think the ether is treated...well, more or less like how magic & mysticism is treated in our society. This is not exactly what you'd expect to see if etheric beings were a hugely & arbitrarily privileged class, as Shell is implying! The ether may give individuals the power to shoot fire out of their hands just by thinking about it...but apparently, it can't give them the power to, say, become Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. And at the end of the day, which of those powers is more valuable? Who exactly is being unfairly favored by the laws (or anarchy) of the universe?
And it's not like we have to look that far afield to understand what the real power dynamics underlying the Gunnerverse are...just look at this room. You have Arthur & Juliette, who have to keep their consenting & loving relationship a secret out of fear of retaliation from the Court...Antimony, who had to watch her mother waste away into nothingness due to the disease that came along with her etheric powers, and later almost got exiled from the Court, her home, for daring to suggest that they carry on respectful diplomatic relations with the Forest people right next door...Renard, who was kept in cramped, solitary confinement for more than a decade by the Court (and possibly forced to participate in invasive experiments)...and Kat, who's had to sit on the scientific discovery of a lifetime because the Court would find it " unpalatable", and then almost got permanently imprisoned by an elder god due to her accidental misuse of etheric forces. And now Shell is saying that THEY'RE the ones being unfairly privileged? That the ordinary humans of the Court are the ones being oppressed by the big, bad, Ether? It's all starting to seem to me a little like a white person complaining to a black one that they're the victim of "reverse racism" because people get mad when they try to wear dreadlocks, and insisting the other guy just can't understand because he's blinded by his "black privilege."
EDIT: maxptc I honestly hadn't seen your post before writing this, but now that I look at it WOW those two posts are really talking about similar topics. Anyway...I think you're not entirely wrong that magic powers and social powers can be closely related in fantasy stories, but it's also important to note that, especially in urban fantasy, magic doesn't actually REPLACE social class, it has to co-exist with it. Sometimes magic is very notably only wielded by people who are also socially privileged in some way, in which case sure it might be valid to see magic as a kind of metaphor for that kind of privilege, but I don't think this is one of those cases. |
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Post by blahzor on Jan 16, 2022 14:32:08 GMT
The court is constantly afraid of a Magneto appearing in their mist
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Post by maxptc on Jan 16, 2022 17:30:44 GMT
You know, on reflection, I think one of the most damning piece of evidence against Shell's (and Aata's) whole argument is that, as far as we know, etheric beings (and/or humans with etheric talents) aren't currently ruling the world - ordinary humans are. From what we've seen, most etheric beings & people in the Gunnerverse live in secret, either isolated from or simply unacknowledged by the rest of the outside world. Plenty of individuals may have very concrete ties to the ether, but on a really big, societal, level, I think the ether is treated...well, more or less like how magic & mysticism is treated in our society. This is not exactly what you'd expect to see if etheric beings were a hugely & arbitrarily privileged class, as Shell is implying! The ether may give individuals the power to shoot fire out of their hands just by thinking about it...but apparently, it can't give them the power to, say, become Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. And at the end of the day, which of those powers is more valuable? Who exactly is being unfairly favored by the laws (or anarchy) of the universe? And it's not like we have to look that far afield to understand what the real power dynamics underlying the Gunnerverse are...just look at this room. You have Arthur & Juliette, who have to keep their consenting & loving relationship a secret out of fear of retaliation from the Court...Antimony, who had to watch her mother waste away into nothingness due to the disease that came along with her etheric powers, and later almost got exiled from the Court, her home, for daring to suggest that they carry on respectful diplomatic relations with the Forest people right next door...Renard, who was kept in cramped, solitary confinement for more than a decade by the Court (and possibly forced to participate in invasive experiments)...and Kat, who's had to sit on the scientific discovery of a lifetime because the Court would find it " unpalatable", and then almost got permanently imprisoned by an elder god due to her accidental misuse of etheric forces. And now Shell is saying that THEY'RE the ones being unfairly privileged? That the ordinary humans of the Court are the ones being oppressed by the big, bad, Ether? It's all starting to seem to me a little like a white person complaining to a black one that they're the victim of "reverse racism" because people get mad when they try to wear dreadlocks, and insisting the other guy just can't understand because he's blinded by his "black privilege." EDIT: maxptc I honestly hadn't seen your post before writing this, but now that I look at it WOW those two posts are really talking about similar topics. Anyway...I think you're not entirely wrong that magic powers and social powers can be closely related in fantasy stories, but it's also important to note that, especially in urban fantasy, magic doesn't actually REPLACE social class, it has to co-exist with it. Sometimes magic is very notably only wielded by people who are also socially privileged in some way, in which case sure it might be valid to see magic as a kind of metaphor for that kind of privilege, but I don't think this is one of those cases. People are literally Ants to Coyete, the invisible figures of the RoTD and the afterlife guides and whatever other agencies we know about control the fabric of reality, dispense and imprison souls and decide who can stay around longer in the physical world. What happened to Mort proves the high level ether being aren't exactly perfect overseers of the ether. I agree that the Court is a controlling government that has a weird hypocrisy regarding utilizing and repressing magic, but the high level magic users are powerful and in control of the situation on an entirely different level, and I definitively understand why the Court would feel oppressed. I don't think moving and ignoring the ether is a good plan, but I can definitely understand a powerful entity like the Court not being happy about its powerlessness compared to other entities. |
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Post by Per on Jan 16, 2022 20:40:22 GMT
I dunno, maybe I'm alone in seeing class and social status as comparable to magical status in stories, but I stand by thinking they are thematically similar. In dismissals of the fantasy genre, magic being racist and classist is pretty much one of the standard lines of attack. I have no doubts whatsoever that there are those, perhaps particularly among SF fans and critics, who'd say that escape from the oppression of magic into a realm of reason would be the best and noblest, if not the good and noble, plot of a fantasy story. Edit to clarify: Rereading the post it might seem I'm sticking other opinions on you, so I should probably clarify that's not the case, if anything I'm validating what you're saying by pointing out it's a parallel that's been drawn many times. I think it's a perfectly valid observation, obviously what's then right and wrong in any given setting and who's a jerk and non-jerk in a story is going to be very much Depending on the Writer, and so far I have more faith in Tom than, say, C.S. Lewis in this department. |
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Post by sebastian on Jan 16, 2022 20:55:48 GMT
What people seem often to not mention when they talk about x-men is that people don't fear and hate mutants just because they are different, they fear and hate mutants because they can be and often are dangerous. We have mutants that can litterally change the rules of nature on a whim, can control weather on a large scale, Professor X is the greatest telepath in the world, He can posses and mind control people even at a distance (IIRC he did mind-control the President of the United States in one of the movies) and most people can't do a thing about that. How it is rational not be terrified by powers like those? But noooo, it is just basic jealousy.  ... OTOH, if someone is more sporty, more musical or more artistically gifted than the average there is little risk for him to destroy your house/town/planet on a whim. With etheric powers that is a distinct possibilty, and of late more than just a possibility. This argument still has a major flaw because it runs on the same logic as any other prejudice. "They're a potential threat to us that must be curtailed and policed" is a flimsy premise. Coyote is a standout example, clearly an exception to the general power level of etheric beings. I think the webcomic Strong Female Protagonist summed it up well; they had an anti metahuman group that seemed justified because of supervillains, but mostly went after innocent and harmless civilians with powers they couldn't even defend themselves with. How many people are actual threats versus just being different? It's clearly not being framed as a danger here, just an issue of someone being able to do something they can't. Trying to make it about security seems misguided at best, deliberately dishonest at worse. There are a lot of etheric creatures that are dangerous, even if obviously not at Coyote's level. On the top of my head, there are those wasp-like things, whatever Etty was, those white spiders in Zimmingham, the shadow men (those made by Coyote) that with the exception of Shadow don't seem friendlty to the Court, and of course there all themembers of Isengrim's army. I arrive to say that for every friendly etheric creature we have seen there was shown one that is dangerous to humans, if not outright hostile. |
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Post by warrl on Jan 16, 2022 22:28:47 GMT
I arrive to say that for every friendly etheric creature we have seen there was shown one that is dangerous to humans, if not outright hostile. And we've seen a few that are dangerous and hostile, period, end of discussion, they don't care about human or non. Which makes them... kinda like humans. |
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Post by Dvandaemon on Jan 17, 2022 8:13:39 GMT
People are literally Ants to Coyete, the invisible figures of the RoTD and the afterlife guides and whatever other agencies we know about control the fabric of reality, dispense and imprison souls and decide who can stay around longer in the physical world. What happened to Mort proves the high level ether being aren't exactly perfect overseers of the ether. I agree that the Court is a controlling government that has a weird hypocrisy regarding utilizing and repressing magic, but the high level magic users are powerful and in control of the situation on an entirely different level, and I definitively understand why the Court would feel oppressed. I don't think moving and ignoring the ether is a good plan, but I can definitely understand a powerful entity like the Court not being happy about its powerlessness compared to other entities. I think because the Court is so powerful is exactly why I'm not agreeing with equating the ether to social class too much. It's like watching the rich complain that they're money or status is no good somewhere. They're not against it because exclusivity is unfair on principle, they're against it because they feel personally slighted and a little threatened that their privilege isn't relevant. So they pick at it until they get their way. And again Coyote is an outlier, a lot of what he's done is from trying to antagonize him directly. Even going out of their way to do it, since it's not like he's interested in their affairs anyway. Having problems with how the afterlife is run is more debatable. It's reasonable to want to opt out of evaluation under a fallible system. There are a lot of etheric creatures that are dangerous, even if obviously not at Coyote's level. On the top of my head, there are those wasp-like things, whatever Etty was, those white spiders in Zimmingham, the shadow men (those made by Coyote) that with the exception of Shadow don't seem friendlty to the Court, and of course there all themembers of Isengrim's army. I arrive to say that for every friendly etheric creature we have seen there was shown one that is dangerous to humans, if not outright hostile. I'm not saying there are no dangerous etheric beings but trying to emphasize them isn't entirely honest if you're going to undertake disruptive action in general against them. There's a line between building a defense and trying to completely destroy someone deemed a threat. |
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Post by maxptc on Jan 18, 2022 0:22:37 GMT
People are literally Ants to Coyete, the invisible figures of the RoTD and the afterlife guides and whatever other agencies we know about control the fabric of reality, dispense and imprison souls and decide who can stay around longer in the physical world. What happened to Mort proves the high level ether being aren't exactly perfect overseers of the ether. I agree that the Court is a controlling government that has a weird hypocrisy regarding utilizing and repressing magic, but the high level magic users are powerful and in control of the situation on an entirely different level, and I definitively understand why the Court would feel oppressed. I don't think moving and ignoring the ether is a good plan, but I can definitely understand a powerful entity like the Court not being happy about its powerlessness compared to other entities. I think because the Court is so powerful is exactly why I'm not agreeing with equating the ether to social class too much. It's like watching the rich complain that they're money or status is no good somewhere. They're not against it because exclusivity is unfair on principle, they're against it because they feel personally slighted and a little threatened that their privilege isn't relevant. So they pick at it until they get their way. And again Coyote is an outlier, a lot of what he's done is from trying to antagonize him directly. Even going out of their way to do it, since it's not like he's interested in their affairs anyway. Having problems with how the afterlife is run is more debatable. It's reasonable to want to opt out of evaluation under a fallible system. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you hold a negative opinion of the Court compared to the Forest. While I don't think either is perfect, I don't think the Court feeling threatened and uncomfortable with magic is entirely unreasonable nor would I say it is based purely on jealousy and privilege. The ether system as it exists in the gk world can be validly concerning to anyone in it who doesnt have god level powers over it, much like people who have billions are a concern to people with thousands and those with none, even if not in equal measure. At least in my opinion. |
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Post by Dvandaemon on Jan 18, 2022 1:20:10 GMT
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you hold a negative opinion of the Court compared to the Forest. While I don't think either is perfect, I don't think the Court feeling threatened and uncomfortable with magic is entirely unreasonable nor would I say it is based purely on jealousy and privilege. The ether system as it exists in the gk world can be validly concerning to anyone in it who doesnt have god level powers over it, much like people who have billions are a concern to people with thousands and those with none, even if not in equal measure. At least in my opinion. My issue is the running comparison to wealth which doesn't hold up under practical scrutiny. The Court is super shady, the kind of shady rationalized because they can claim there's a worse existential threat all their efforts are seeking to defend against which is just textbook propaganda no matter how true it may be. Like I said, how much of this threat is because they keep poking the bear trying to recreate its claws? |
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Post by todd on Jan 18, 2022 1:34:37 GMT
I still get the impression that what the Court really objects to about the Ether isn't that beings like Coyote and Loup can exploit it and cause a lot of harm, or that they can't use it; it's that they can't scientifically explain how it works, and if they get rid of it, it can't frustrate them any longer.
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Post by maxptc on Jan 18, 2022 2:32:37 GMT
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you hold a negative opinion of the Court compared to the Forest. While I don't think either is perfect, I don't think the Court feeling threatened and uncomfortable with magic is entirely unreasonable nor would I say it is based purely on jealousy and privilege. The ether system as it exists in the gk world can be validly concerning to anyone in it who doesnt have god level powers over it, much like people who have billions are a concern to people with thousands and those with none, even if not in equal measure. At least in my opinion. My issue is the running comparison to wealth which doesn't hold up under practical scrutiny. The Court is super shady, the kind of shady rationalized because they can claim there's a worse existential threat all their efforts are seeking to defend against which is just textbook propaganda no matter how true it may be. Like I said, how much of this threat is because they keep poking the bear trying to recreate its claws? Poking it or not, I think the Court is very weak, and aware of this weakness, compared to the power of the Ether. I dont think the Court is anymore an outright villian then Coyete is and they can reasonably feel threatened by the existence of magic, despite being powerful and shady. I dont think they are responding well, they may be outright wrong and dooming everyone. They could stray into acts of pure evil, but that doesn't seem very likely, just based on how morally ambiguous a lot of the comic is. I just think the underlying premise is resonable and not evil on its own. That premise being magic is terrifying and way bigger then us and maybe we should do something about that. |
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Post by maxptc on Jan 18, 2022 2:39:50 GMT
I still get the impression that what the Court really objects to about the Ether isn't that beings like Coyote and Loup can exploit it and cause a lot of harm, or that they can't use it; it's that they can't scientifically explain how it works, and if they get rid of it, it can't frustrate them any longer. That doesn't seem to be the objection from Shell and Atta, but it wouldn't surprise me if thats the real issue for the Shadowmen as a whole with everything else a secondary concern at best. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Jan 18, 2022 4:14:34 GMT
You know, on reflection, I think one of the most damning piece of evidence against Shell's (and Aata's) whole argument is that, as far as we know, etheric beings (and/or humans with etheric talents) aren't currently ruling the world - ordinary humans are. From what we've seen, most etheric beings & people in the Gunnerverse live in secret, either isolated from or simply unacknowledged by the rest of the outside world. Plenty of individuals may have very concrete ties to the ether, but on a really big, societal, level, I think the ether is treated...well, more or less like how magic & mysticism is treated in our society. This is not exactly what you'd expect to see if etheric beings were a hugely & arbitrarily privileged class, as Shell is implying! The ether may give individuals the power to shoot fire out of their hands just by thinking about it...but apparently, it can't give them the power to, say, become Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. And at the end of the day, which of those powers is more valuable? Who exactly is being unfairly favored by the laws (or anarchy) of the universe? And it's not like we have to look that far afield to understand what the real power dynamics underlying the Gunnerverse are...just look at this room. You have Arthur & Juliette, who have to keep their consenting & loving relationship a secret out of fear of retaliation from the Court...Antimony, who had to watch her mother waste away into nothingness due to the disease that came along with her etheric powers, and later almost got exiled from the Court, her home, for daring to suggest that they carry on respectful diplomatic relations with the Forest people right next door...Renard, who was kept in cramped, solitary confinement for more than a decade by the Court (and possibly forced to participate in invasive experiments)...and Kat, who's had to sit on the scientific discovery of a lifetime because the Court would find it " unpalatable", and then almost got permanently imprisoned by an elder god due to her accidental misuse of etheric forces. And now Shell is saying that THEY'RE the ones being unfairly privileged? That the ordinary humans of the Court are the ones being oppressed by the big, bad, Ether? It's all starting to seem to me a little like a white person complaining to a black one that they're the victim of "reverse racism" because people get mad when they try to wear dreadlocks, and insisting the other guy just can't understand because he's blinded by his "black privilege." EDIT: maxptc I honestly hadn't seen your post before writing this, but now that I look at it WOW those two posts are really talking about similar topics. Anyway...I think you're not entirely wrong that magic powers and social powers can be closely related in fantasy stories, but it's also important to note that, especially in urban fantasy, magic doesn't actually REPLACE social class, it has to co-exist with it. Sometimes magic is very notably only wielded by people who are also socially privileged in some way, in which case sure it might be valid to see magic as a kind of metaphor for that kind of privilege, but I don't think this is one of those cases. People are literally Ants to Coyete, the invisible figures of the RoTD and the afterlife guides and whatever other agencies we know about control the fabric of reality, dispense and imprison souls and decide who can stay around longer in the physical world. What happened to Mort proves the high level ether being aren't exactly perfect overseers of the ether. I agree that the Court is a controlling government that has a weird hypocrisy regarding utilizing and repressing magic, but the high level magic users are powerful and in control of the situation on an entirely different level, and I definitively understand why the Court would feel oppressed. I don't think moving and ignoring the ether is a good plan, but I can definitely understand a powerful entity like the Court not being happy about its powerlessness compared to other entities. Those are actually some REALLY good points I hadn't quite considered before, but...I think I'm STILL going to stand by my argument nevertheless, while perhaps toning it down just a bit. The main reason for this is because, while we have seen some powerful etheric authorities, I'd argue that they've generally tended to restrict their authority to only things that already had to do with the Ether - which, if anything, should lead ordinary humans to question their own privilege more, not their powerlessness. The ROTD only recruits and controls ghosts (exclusively for the purpose, I might add, of " keep[ing] the spirits alive in the minds of the living"), the afterlife guides guide the souls of people who are already dead into the Ether, and yes...even COYOTE, of all people, seemed oddly content to just frolic in his own enchanted forest and ordering about his etheric subjects, secluded from the mundane world of humans for hundreds of years. When he did make significant interventions in the human world, it was always to protect his own etheric fellows - when the Court made war upon the Forest people, he created the Annan Waters. When his fire-haired Forest Medium was kept away from him, he pushed over a building (and an empty one, at that).
Loup, now...well, Loup's actions have been pretty damning, but I'd still argue he's the exception that proves the rule. Ysengrin was one of the only Forest creatures that seemed to genuinely hate humans and want to exert power over them, and I don't think it was a coincidence that he was the one being most frequently put down & kept in check by Coyote. Then, when Ysengrin became Loup, he wrought an enormous amount of devastation among the human city of the Court, for all of two seconds...and then promptly went back into the Forest to spend the rest of his time fiddling with branches and trying to gain some semblance of control over the Forest again. He still hates humans, but now he just can't seem to handle the kind of power which Coyote commanded...or even the respect which he commanded among the Forest people. Again, I don't think this is a coincidence. I honestly think that there's something about the Ether which is inherently wary of anything that would cause big changes in human society.
Powerful creatures of the Ether might not always be good, and they can be dangerous if you're really trying to provoke them, but they're hardly ever actually oppressive of humans. The Court isn't mad because they're oppressed - they're mad because they've seen a whole new world residing outside their mundane reality, and they can't gain absolute control over it no matter how hard they try.
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