[2494] Failed cousin

[V]

What ARE you, Aata?!

Update: Not sure if Aata entered the time stop or broke it in some way. It seems the blue borders are gone, though.

[Fishy]

Coyote does specify “this realm.” It seems that the timestop isn’t quite timestop, but something so similar that the distinction mostly doesn’t matter save for cases like this.

I wonder if Renard would be able to act and speak if he were here.

[aline]

Aata can enter the ether, but he calls it distasteful. "Failed cousin", that should mean a failed god. Perhaps the result of a previous, imperfect attempt to steal etheric powers and achieve godhood.

Someone in the previous thread wondered how old Aata was. If he is what Coyote says he is he might be very old indeed.

[Anthony]

Aata is Buddha confirmed.

Upd: picture for reference

Attachments:

[mzpx]

[Buddha imagery intensifies]

'Failed cousin' because Buddha was a human who tried to achieve godhood, but didn't quite manage (in this story anyway)?

[Edit] looks like there's some interesting history here if Aata is confident enough to declare that Coyote is also bitter. And the idea that Coyote is bitter at all is kinda new, isn't it? Coyote has been called a lot of things, but never bitter, I don't think.

[Edit2] I guess 'speak for yourself' could also be interpreted as Aata not considering himself bitter. We'll find out soon enough.

[justhalf]

Wow, this is a huge story progress! I think this is the first time we see someone else in the ether?

[madjack]

Buddha's story being a man who achieved enlightenment and a teacher rather than specifically a god... Important distinction?

Edit: This post on reddit might be on the right track and he might not be Buddha at all?

[SilverbackRon]

Wow, Just who the heck is Atta?  Failed cousin, does that mean he is related to the dog deities?  Coyote called Renardine Cousin when he first came to the court during Annie's time.  (I am sure Coyote had been there before, but pre-dating this story).

[silicondream]

Jul 16, 2021 7:25:39 GMT SilverbackRon said:

Wow, Just who the heck is Atta?  Failed cousin, does that mean he is related to the dog deities?  Coyote called Renardine Cousin when he first came to the court during Annie's time.  (I am sure Coyote had been there before, but pre-dating this story).

A Tanuki, perhaps?  Rotund and jolly, but sometimes malevolent; likes to masquerade as a human, and in particular as a Buddhist priest (reminiscent of Ysengrimus as a Christian monk); sometimes adorns itself with magical leaves?  

It would be convenient if Aata's name localized him culturally, but unfortunately there are similarly spelled names all over the globe, from Finland to the Middle East to India to Oceania.

[theonethatgotaway]

Jul 16, 2021 7:55:27 GMT silicondream said:

Jul 16, 2021 7:25:39 GMT SilverbackRon said:

Wow, Just who the heck is Atta?  Failed cousin, does that mean he is related to the dog deities?  Coyote called Renardine Cousin when he first came to the court during Annie's time.  (I am sure Coyote had been there before, but pre-dating this story).

A Tanuki, perhaps?  Rotund and jolly, but sometimes malevolent; likes to masquerade as a human, and in particular as a Buddhist priest (reminiscent of Ysengrimus as a Christian monk); sometimes adorns itself with magical leaves?  

While that would be very nice, I don't think the Court would take too kindly to someone deceiving them so. 

[V]

By the way, has Coyote ever been alive? It's possible that he has never really lived, just did not care to mention it, and now does so at every occasion. Or, is alive/dead just a label that changes when you "experience death"? (That would be more in line with Jones' view on that topic, but who says she's right.)

Either way, his existence is not linked to this metric at all, but rather to being remembered. That is what people don't realize, and infer that if he exists he needs to be alive. But effectively, all he does is provide a strong evidence for his theory from chapter 39.

No wonder that even some higher-ups are baffled by this, though. His theory is probably called his "great secret" for a reason. Ysengrin and Annie knew, and Jones knows about it, but maybe he chooses to keep others in the dark?

[aline]

Jul 16, 2021 8:20:30 GMT theonethatgotaway said:

Jul 16, 2021 7:55:27 GMT silicondream said:

A Tanuki, perhaps?  Rotund and jolly, but sometimes malevolent; likes to masquerade as a human, and in particular as a Buddhist priest (reminiscent of Ysengrimus as a Christian monk); sometimes adorns itself with magical leaves?  

While that would be very nice, I don't think the Court would take too kindly to someone deceiving them so. 

Yeah and the way he talks ("I know a few tricks, however distatestful they are") makes me think he wasn't born an etheric creature. He's human. Or he was, initially. 

[blahzor]

Jul 16, 2021 7:08:06 GMT Fishy said:

Coyote does specify “this realm.” It seems that the timestop isn’t quite timestop, but something so similar that the distinction mostly doesn’t matter save for cases like this.

I wonder if Renard would be able to act and speak if he were here.

I'd go as far as a sight not seen by regular people like Zimmy says and that Annie has experience on her own rarely at times

[mzpx]

This brings up so many questions, by the way, especially given how many myths and legends there are of humans trying to become gods, e.g. Heracles, Gilgamesh, etc. Have other failed gods come to the Court, are they the Shadow Men? What's the process, try to become a god -> fail -> get annoyed at natural gods/ether -> come to the Court to shut off the ether? Do they consider themselves to be failures, or having gained knowledge of just how terrifying natural gods are, they are actually very content on having a link to their humanity and they see it as their role to protect the rest of humanity from e.g. capricious canine gods?
Does the rest of the Court know/care? (Does Jones know that Aata is a failed god? She'd definitely be interested.) Do the failed gods come to the Court to perfect the their creation ('man's endeavour to become god'), were they there at the start? Was this why they were escaping, because the rest of humanity shunned them after their efforts?
I could go on.. But the revelation that there is at least one ancient being with etherific powers working in the Court is, well, huge, with many many implications.

[TBeholder]

Coyote's method of teaching is unsubtle this time.

Jul 16, 2021 7:08:49 GMT aline said:

Aata can enter the ether, but he calls it distasteful.

It's fickle?
Or just using it for "tricks" is distasteful.

[aline]

Jul 16, 2021 8:51:13 GMT TBeholder said:

Coyote's method of teaching is unsubtle this time.

Jul 16, 2021 7:08:49 GMT aline said:

Aata can enter the ether, but he calls it distasteful.

It's fickle?
Or just using it for "tricks" is distasteful.

Pure speculation at this stage, but Anja did say the Court didn't like her etheric computer because nobody could explain how it works. I'd bet Aata is one of those who despises "tricks", magical feats that cannot be analyzed and explained. He will take the powers, but he doesn't have to like it.

That might explain the bitterness too.

[King Mir]

Jul 16, 2021 8:23:29 GMT V said:

By the way, has Coyote ever been alive? It's possible that he has never really lived, just did not care to mention it, and now does so at every occasion. Or, is alive/dead just a label that changes when you "experience death"? (That would be more in line with Jones' view on that topic, but who says she's right.)

Either way, his existence is not linked to this metric at all, but rather to being remembered. That is what people don't realize, and infer that if he exists he needs to be alive. But effectively, all he does is provide a strong evidence for his theory from chapter 39.

No wonder that even some higher-ups are baffled by this, though. His theory is probably called his "great secret" for a reason. Ysengrin and Annie knew, and Jones knows about it, but maybe he chooses to keep others in the dark?

Gods are surely alive as they were conceived by the cultures where they originate. So too must Coyote be. In general gods cannot be killed because they are gods, but Coyote has gone out of his way to make himself weak and vulnerable. Indeed we have seen that psychopomps can be killed (https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1315). So I think we should interpret Coyote's death as legitimate. He died and his essence went into the aether to make the world spin(https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=356). But of course he intended to cheat death. What trickster would not? Whatever his plans, they will probably work out.

There is one caveat. Coyote also stayed behind in the American plains to play with ants: www.gunnerkrigg.com/extracomics/comic.php?c=Coyote&p=5. That part of him is surely still alive; it never went to the court.

[Georgie L]

You heard of "mantling" from The Elder Scrolls lore? I wonder if this what Aata is doing?

Jul 16, 2021 9:15:31 GMT:

The process of mantling appears to involve taking up of a role, which then grants the person the power and, to an extent, the identity, associated with that role.

It does kinda feel like it fits, especially as the Buddha face seems warped and not quite perfect.

[ebaaus]

[King Mir]

Jul 16, 2021 7:10:58 GMT Anthony said:

Aata is Buddha confirmed.

Upd: picture for reference

That isn't Buddha, that is Budai. But Atta is clearly nothing Like Budai.

[TBeholder]

Jul 16, 2021 9:34:38 GMT King Mir said:

Jul 16, 2021 7:10:58 GMT Anthony said:

Aata is Buddha confirmed.

Upd: picture for reference

That isn't Buddha, that is Budai. But Atta is clearly nothing Like Budai.

Or rather, not "the Buddha" (as in, good ol' Prince Gautama), but a buddha. Who knows all of them?
Or perhaps rather a boddhisattva (as in, he's an enlightened being, but also is "present on the map" properly, rather than like Coyote).

[frogspawned]

Can a thing die that doesn't exist?
Is a person dead while they're remembered?

I'd venture no, not really. But this flash of memory- is it the true Coyote, or something more like a butterfly pinned to a board? A snapshot, an after-image, a... program? Meant for some purpose by the one that made it.

-Not truly alive, so to say it is dead means nothing?
-Formed from specific memories to do/believe certain things?
-Has Coyote tricked "himself" into thinking he is dead?

I have tremendous trouble believing that Coyote can even die. If his tooth was so easily replaced, why not the rest of him? If a body missing a tooth can take a stone and be whole, can a tooth missing a body not do the same?

[aline]

Jul 16, 2021 10:46:04 GMT frogspawned said:

I have tremendous trouble believing that Coyote can even die. If his tooth was so easily replaced, why not the rest of him? If a body missing a tooth can take a stone and be whole, can a tooth missing a body not do the same?

Considering how much trouble he went to in order to experience death, I do believe he died. 
Now the definition of life is a sketchy thing but if you accept Coyote was an individual capable to think and act independently then he must have been alive, whatever the conditions of his creation.

What we see now is like the message Loup sent to Annie, an echo. 

Coyote replaced a tooth with a stone, yes, but we don't know that the stone gained the same properties as the tooth. It was there for appearances. 

[Polyhymnia]

What I want to know is why he looks so…sloppy in the ether. The flowers and expression make it seem like he is supernatural, and thus more glorious in the ether. But he also looks like he’s falling apart and his word bubbles are dripping.

[philman]

Having Aata as Buddha still seems like a stretch to me, while there are many mythical creatures and beings in these comics, and we have met several gods before, they are generally gods of old religions that aren't still worshipped by many people today. Tom bringing in a god of a major extant religion, let alone making them an antagonist, seems a bit of a stretch for me.

[V]

Jul 16, 2021 9:14:26 GMT King Mir said:

Jul 16, 2021 8:23:29 GMT V said:

By the way, has Coyote ever been alive? It's possible that he has never really lived, just did not care to mention it, and now does so at every occasion. Or, is alive/dead just a label that changes when you "experience death"? (That would be more in line with Jones' view on that topic, but who says she's right.)

Either way, his existence is not linked to this metric at all, but rather to being remembered. That is what people don't realize, and infer that if he exists he needs to be alive. But effectively, all he does is provide a strong evidence for his theory from chapter 39.

No wonder that even some higher-ups are baffled by this, though. His theory is probably called his "great secret" for a reason. Ysengrin and Annie knew, and Jones knows about it, but maybe he chooses to keep others in the dark?

Gods are surely alive as they were conceived by the cultures where they originate. So too must Coyote be. In general gods cannot be killed because they are gods, but Coyote has gone out of his way to make himself weak and vulnerable. Indeed we have seen that psychopomps can be killed (https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1315). So I think we should interpret Coyote's death as legitimate. He died and his essence went into the aether to make the world spin(https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=356). But of course he intended to cheat death. What trickster would not? Whatever his plans, they will probably work out.

There is one caveat. Coyote also stayed behind in the American plains to play with ants: www.gunnerkrigg.com/extracomics/comic.php?c=Coyote&p=5. That part of him is surely still alive; it never went to the court.

I have two problems with saying that Coyote went into the ether:

1. he already was in the ether,
2. that power to form it to sustain the beliefs (to "make the world spin"?) seems to be exclusive to humans, or so are phrased all the citations I could quickly find: #1073, #1121, #2041.

[mordekai]

I don't think Aata is Gautama Buddha (the historical Buddha, and the person westerners think about when they mention "Buddha").

Buddhism (and sincretic religions that assimilated Buddhism, like Chinese popular religion or japanese Shinbutsu-konkō former state religion) have LOTS of Buddhas, Bodhisatvas, minor deities bound to Bodhisatvas as disciples (like Shancai and Longnü), Dharmapalas, Sokushinbutsu saints, reincarnating Lamas...etc.

And there are also a bunch of minor deities whose looks are influenced by buddhist deities despite not behaving quite like them, like the japanese Hotei (a deity of good luck and happiness), who is inspired by the chinese Budai, who is in turn a popular folk deity that was assimilated to Bodhisatba Maitreya and incorporated into popular Buddhism.

This Aata guy could be a failed attempt to become any one of these...

[mitten]

I find it interesting that Aata's ether form is surrounded by flowers, not at all what I would have expected from him, he doesn't exactly give the impression of being a nature loving guy. A failed god of growth or fertility perhaps? Also, his ether form looks oddly melting, and that long segmental structure inside of it reminds me of a human spine inside a blob of jelly, which in turn makes me wonder if perhaps he was never human at all. Could go either way. Finally, there is that peculiar structure inside his head and along his nose, which reminds me a little of a small brain attached to a spinal cord, with the bone of the spine positioned behind it rather than surrounding it. Could it be that the 'melting' form, implies that rather than being a human who tried to become a god, he is a weakened god, no longer worshipped, and instead masquerading as a human?

Aata makes an odd comment too, implying that Coyote is bitter. I could think of many words to describe Coyote, but bitter would never have been one of them.

Very interesting plottwist this! Looking forward to seeing where it goes.

[mordekai]

Jul 16, 2021 7:10:58 GMT Anthony said:

Aata is Buddha confirmed.

Upd: picture for reference

That isn't Buddha. That is Hotei/Budai.

[Igniz]

Jul 16, 2021 7:55:27 GMT silicondream said:

A Tanuki, perhaps?  Rotund and jolly, but sometimes malevolent; likes to masquerade as a human, and in particular as a Buddhist priest (reminiscent of Ysengrimus as a Christian monk); sometimes adorns itself with magical leaves?

Also, tanukis are related to foxes both mythologically and in real life, and both folk creatures are related to Buddhism. Furthermore, "Japanese tanuki were deified as governing all things in nature, but after the arrival of Buddhism, animals other than envoys of the gods (foxes, snakes, etc.) lost their divinity. Since all that remained was the image of possessing special powers, they were seen as evil or as yōkai, with tanuki being a representative type." This ties with Buddha and the aforementioned Ānanda .