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Post by ohthatone on Jul 16, 2021 12:35:07 GMT
I also wonder if "failed cousin" isn't a reference to a previous attempt for man to become a god, but then why would he find tricks to enter the ether distasteful?
I think it could be the reverse, a god's attempt to become human.
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Post by todd on Jul 16, 2021 12:37:13 GMT
This brings up so many questions, by the way, especially given how many myths and legends there are of humans trying to become gods, e.g. Heracles, Gilgamesh, etc. Both Heracles and Gilgamesh were also semi-divine (Heracles the son of Zeus by a human woman, Gilgamesh described as two-thirds divine, one-third mortal - and how the "two-thirds/one-third" came about is a mystery), which might place them in the same category as Annie (who's descended from a fire elemental), though she's displayed no similar aspirations. |
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Post by alevice on Jul 16, 2021 12:44:05 GMT
This dn page has opened a huuuge can of worms. I found the manner of speech of Aata here being quite weird, where he is more elaborate. It seems previous interaction in the latest comica seem to have him speak on semi polite forms, and using titles and names quite interchangeably (entity vs creature, Ms Carver vs jus Carver, Sir Eglamore, etc) and refers to the lake water as both artifact and item. While never the weirdest choice of terms, when examined upon current context, it can give a bit of insight on the off-ness of Aatas english
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Post by mitten on Jul 16, 2021 13:17:51 GMT
A Tanuki, perhaps? Rotund and jolly, but sometimes malevolent; likes to masquerade as a human, and in particular as a Buddhist priest (reminiscent of Ysengrimus as a Christian monk); sometimes adorns itself with magical leaves? Also, tanukis are related to foxes both mythologically and in real life, and both folk creatures are related to Buddhism. Furthermore, " Japanese tanuki were deified as governing all things in nature, but after the arrival of Buddhism, animals other than envoys of the gods (foxes, snakes, etc.) lost their divinity. Since all that remained was the image of possessing special powers, they were seen as evil or as yōkai, with tanuki being a representative type." This ties with Buddha and the aforementioned Ānanda . On that Wiki page, the Tanuki is also said to possess certain physical traits. A couple of those are 'a big belly' and 'a big friendly smile'. I think this seems like a plausible theory. |
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Post by Daedalus on Jul 16, 2021 14:08:20 GMT
What ARE you, Aata?!Update: Not sure if Aata entered the time stop or broke it in some way. It seems the blue borders are gone, though. I am pretty sure he's some version of Buddha. The bald head and smile, the crown of flowers and ears -- and given the description of "failed cousin", I think he's a human who's stolen power from the "real" deity in question. |
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Post by Alkazar on Jul 16, 2021 15:02:18 GMT
Now is the question (and my crazy idea for the day): How will this situation play out? Coyote (or his memory, but that's interchangeable) will not let have Aata his power. Ysengrim (or Loup) is out of the game, because of reasons. So who will get Coyote's power? In the moment only Annie is at hand. And as a fire spirit and forest medium she's already more forest than court. If she gets this power, it will shift her more in opposition to Kat, the Robot-God. That could get interesting very fast. And it would be another nice joke by coyote, too.
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 16, 2021 16:29:35 GMT
In our first panel, Coyote cautions Annie about Aata, saying, "his bitterness knows no bounds!" Does Coyote know this from past interactions with Aata, is he interpolating that based on things the Court's done, or is he using some sort of ethereal senses here? The next panel was a huge surprise for me – things seem to remain frozen in time, judging by the gray background, but the gray panel borders seem to have disappeared. And yet a Buddha-like face emerges from the time-stopped Aata's head and speaks, as if he's been listening to all of this. Now, what he says is, "Speak for yourself, creature!" Two thoughts come to my mind right away; one of them is that he doesn't consider himself bitter, and the other is that he considers Coyote to be a creature. Does he mean "creature" in the sense of "animal" (reminding me of this conversation), or does he mean "creature" in the sense of "creation," implying that he knows that this is a fragment of Coyote? And finally, what? Aata has a presence in the Ether? The imagery around it is surrounded by flowers, and there is a forehead marking with a line going down the nose. This is reminiscent of Hinduism or Buddhism, but I'm not an expert on Hinduism or Buddhism. Is Aata a Buddha-like entity, or does this mean he's gained the ability to interact with the Ether via some sort of Eastern meditation practices? Coyote appears very surprised to see that Aata has any sort of ethereal presence. "You reach through to this realm?" he asks. He's using the term "realm," which I'm not sure we've seen used before to refer to the Ether. He's also saying "reach through," more interesting terminology. Much of the time, stuff involving the Ether just happens, and people don't talk about it a lot, so a lot of the words I've been using to talk about it aren't canonical. Aata is cagey about how much he knows, but he does say that this sort of thing is "distasteful" to him. That's very much in line with the Court's attitude about the Ether – it's a tool to be used in cases where it's helpful, nothing more. By reaching through to the Ether mentally like this, he's using something more like "etheric tenet" and less like technology. Technology is meant to allow anyone to press a button and start the machine. He's doing something that only some people can do. That's why I think he considers it distasteful – in his mind he's doing something good, trying to open up the benefits of the Ether to everyone. He might see himself like a pioneer, making a new world available to everyone, rather than just the chosen few. Then Aata turns to Annie, who's drawn cartoonishly in the distance, and accuses her of concealing the fact that Coyote's still alive. Coyote then confirms that he isn't (I'd been wondering – apparently this is like the goose bone) and that this is just a fragment, though he uses the term "flash of memory." Coyote thinks Aata already knew this, which implies that Aata intended to shame Annie with his accusation, perhaps in an attempt to gain more control over her. By defusing this, Coyote has exposed Aata as a deceiver. Though I suspect that Annie already knew this. And finally ... Coyote calls Aata "Failed Cousin." What does this mean? I can think of two possibilities. One is that Aata has just attempted to become Coyote's "cousin" by stealing his power, but that attempt has failed. That seems perfectly reasonable, as Coyote has called Renard "Cousin." The other is basically the same idea, but it's been going on for longer. Do Coyote and Aata have a history? How old is Aata? Perhaps Aata is some sort of personification of the Court's guiding spirit, trying to reach the Ether by another more technological means that hasn't succeeded, at least not yet. We haven't seen anyone who looks like Aata in any of the glimpses we've had of the early Court, though, so that seems unlikely, unless this guiding spirit is able to take on different forms, or perhaps different hosts. |
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Post by bicarbonat on Jul 16, 2021 16:59:52 GMT
"Don't trust" sirens at full whoop-whoop, folks.
So, a god (or practically one) has been stomping around the shadows of the Court.
We've all seen the visual send-up to Budai, right? I wonder if part of Aata's ax to grind is the "spinning world" status quo (to paraphrase the Moddey Dhoo) as a curse or abomination, like samsara.
Because although Budai and Siddhartha Gautama are distinct entities (as an ascetic, Gautama was *thin*, for starters), Budai/Fat Buddha is also thought by some to be Maitreya, Gautama Buddha's successor - and usher of an utterly ego-less, unpossessing new age.
Sounds right up everybody's alley, huh?
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Post by mturtle7 on Jul 16, 2021 17:08:54 GMT
Can a thing die that doesn't exist? Is a person dead while they're remembered? I'd venture no, not really. But this flash of memory- is it the true Coyote, or something more like a butterfly pinned to a board? A snapshot, an after-image, a... program? Meant for some purpose by the one that made it. -Not truly alive, so to say it is dead means nothing? -Formed from specific memories to do/believe certain things? -Has Coyote tricked "himself" into thinking he is dead? I have tremendous trouble believing that Coyote can even die. If his tooth was so easily replaced, why not the rest of him? If a body missing a tooth can take a stone and be whole, can a tooth missing a body not do the same? The Ship of Theseus, hmm? Reminds me of another famous character 'death'... |
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Post by fia on Jul 16, 2021 17:22:14 GMT
Yeah, I think Aata is giving me definite bodhisattva-adjacent vibes. Like he's spiritually advanced and nearing deity status but not quite there, either by choice or because he's failed. More Buddhist than Hindu; I think a Hindu figure would be more chaotic and groove with Coyote positively. But if Aata is anywhere in the Buddhist spirituality, it might make sense he and Coyote would be at odds.
It might also make sense in that Aata the name could be a reference to atta, the concept of self; Buddhists are generally (though there's debate) committed to the concept of anatta, that there's no soul. So "Aata" could be his own cheeky name for himself while he's in a body, holding back from enlightenment or the like.
It would also make sense for a bodhisattva to be allied with humans that are trying to attain godhood.
Personally although I love the idea I don't think Aata is a tanuki, otherwise we would see that form in his ether projection.
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Post by silicondream on Jul 16, 2021 18:38:17 GMT
You heard of "mantling" from The Elder Scrolls lore? I wonder if this what Aata is doing? The process of mantling appears to involve taking up of a role, which then grants the person the power and, to an extent, the identity, associated with that role. Also found in the vodou/voodoo family of religions, where practitioners allow themselves to be "ridden" by gods, though generally only for the short term. A Tanuki, perhaps? Rotund and jolly, but sometimes malevolent; likes to masquerade as a human, and in particular as a Buddhist priest (reminiscent of Ysengrimus as a Christian monk); sometimes adorns itself with magical leaves? While that would be very nice, I don't think the Court would take too kindly to someone deceiving them so. People usually don't, but tanuki are very good at sneaking in where they're not wanted. In some legends they've spent decades disguised as humans or household objects before anyone figured it out. (They're also capable of possessing real humans, which would fit with the mantling idea.) Also, tanukis are related to foxes both mythologically and in real life, and both folk creatures are related to Buddhism. Furthermore, " Japanese tanuki were deified as governing all things in nature, but after the arrival of Buddhism, animals other than envoys of the gods (foxes, snakes, etc.) lost their divinity. Since all that remained was the image of possessing special powers, they were seen as evil or as yōkai, with tanuki being a representative type." This ties with Buddha and the aforementioned Ānanda . Foxes aside, tanuki have another enemy trickster in the form of the rabbit. And we know one of those has already visited the Court--provoked by Coyote & Annie's stunt with the moon. So if Aata is a tanuki, Coyote has arranged for his two greatest rivals to join him inside the Court. Personally although I love the idea I don't think Aata is a tanuki, otherwise we would see that form in his ether projection. Unless it's covered by his wobbly Buddha-illusion. Etheric forms can be disguised, after all; we've seen the ex-fairies, the RoTD staff and the Wisps all do it. All wildspec, though...it's certainly just as likely that Aata is a fully human bodhisattva sort. Many schools of Buddhism are also fundamentally atheistic, arguing that the gods are either illusions or at the very least not the perfect transcendent immortals they claim to be. Hence Aata's distaste for assuming a godly-looking avatar; from his point of view it would be vanity and hypocrisy. Coyote describes the Court's project as "man trying to become God," but Aata might see it more as humans taking back the power that was always theirs by right. Why should we let gods and mythical beings dominate the Ether when we were the ones who dreamed them up in the first place? |
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Post by frogspawned on Jul 16, 2021 19:07:13 GMT
The Ship of Theseus, hmm? Grandfather's... Knife? |
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Post by foxurus on Jul 16, 2021 21:12:22 GMT
Buddha's story being a man who achieved enlightenment and a teacher rather than specifically a god... Important distinction? Edit: This post on reddit might be on the right track and he might not be Buddha at all? Failed cousin, maybe not because Coyote considers him a cousin, but because he was the Buddha's cousin? Interesting. Aata makes an odd comment too, implying that Coyote is bitter. I could think of many words to describe Coyote, but bitter would never have been one of them. I always thought he might be bitter about not being able to create humans. Then Aata turns to Annie, who's drawn cartoonishly in the distance, and accuses her of concealing the fact that Coyote's still alive. Coyote then confirms that he isn't (I'd been wondering – apparently this is like the goose bone) and that this is just a fragment, though he uses the term "flash of memory." Coyote thinks Aata already knew this, which implies that Aata intended to shame Annie with his accusation, perhaps in an attempt to gain more control over her. By defusing this, Coyote has exposed Aata as a deceiver. Though I suspect that Annie already knew this. "But you already knew that" is sometimes used in a condescending way, to someone who definitely didn't know it, but "should" have. Coyote can't lie about the world, but he might be able to lie about what his own thoughts are. Maybe "I suspect X" doesn't need to be true. Whatever Aata is, he's very pretty. |
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Post by quinnr on Jul 17, 2021 0:00:55 GMT
I was a bit surprised to see Coyote, well, surprised! I'm trying to think of another time we've seen him genuinely taken off-guard but none come to mind. I think it's also notable that Coyote interjects before Annie is able to reveal a single word about their past communication--it'll be interesting to see if Aata follows along on Monday, but I imagine Annie will be hearing from Court leadership soon after they return.
The melting speech bubbles are certainly ominous, too.
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Post by maxptc on Jul 17, 2021 0:24:53 GMT
I've always believed Coyete is not all knowing, at least not in a "this is definitely gonna to happen, no other possibilities so I can't be stopped" seer type way. His surprise here pretty much confirms it to me. Limitless power sure, able to see into future and make long term schemes sure, but also just as capable of being surprised or wrong or thwarted as any other time Wizard. Even if it's only because he chooses to be limited that way or ignores certain threads, or because Atta is also a very powerful character, he still isn't aware of everything. Maybe the reason the Court keeps coming up with plans to steal his power is because they do have some idea of how to move against Coyote, which is why they have been sending pretty redheads instead of an army of dragon slayers. Not saying it's gonna work, but this is a pretty big development.
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Post by mordekai on Jul 17, 2021 0:42:57 GMT
Buddha's story being a man who achieved enlightenment and a teacher rather than specifically a god... Important distinction? Edit: This post on reddit might be on the right track and he might not be Buddha at all? Failed cousin, maybe not because Coyote considers him a cousin, but because he was the Buddha's cousin? Interesting.
Ananda is highly respected by Buddhists, and he eventually became the successor of Buddha as head of the first Buddhist order. Also, he eventually reached enlightment himself... it just took him longer because he was too busy assisting Buddha and he didn't have time to meditate...
Devadatta, on the other hand, was the envious cousin of Buddha, who tried to slander and murder him many times because he was jealous of his success... (well, at least according to some sources... other sources depict him in a better light...).
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Post by TBeholder on Jul 17, 2021 3:19:30 GMT
Can a thing die that doesn't exist? . . . -Not truly alive, so to say it is dead means nothing? They say weirder things occasionally happen, with strange aeons. Tom bringing in a god of a major extant religion, let alone making them an antagonist, seems a bit of a stretch for me. What god? Coyote thinks Aata already knew this, which implies that Aata intended to shame Annie with his accusation, perhaps in an attempt to gain more control over her. By defusing this, Coyote has exposed Aata as a deceiver. Though I suspect that Annie already knew this. "But you already knew that" is sometimes used in a condescending way, to someone who definitely didn't know it, but "should" have. Coyote can't lie about the world, but he might be able to lie about what his own thoughts are. Maybe "I suspect X" doesn't need to be true. This doesn't need to be only one variant. It's a fork: Aata may admit he isn't all that competent, or not… he loses either way. |
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mzpx
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Post by mzpx on Jul 17, 2021 6:27:38 GMT
I was a bit surprised to see Coyote, well, surprised! I'm trying to think of another time we've seen him genuinely taken off-guard but none come to mind. I've always believed Coyete is not all knowing, at least not in a "this is definitely gonna to happen, no other possibilities so I can't be stopped" seer type way. His surprise here pretty much confirms it to me. Limitless power sure, able to see into future and make long term schemes sure, but also just as capable of being surprised or wrong or thwarted as any other time Wizard. Even if it's only because he chooses to be limited that way or ignores certain threads, or because Atta is also a very powerful character, he still isn't aware of everything. Maybe the reason the Court keeps coming up with plans to steal his power is because they do have some idea of how to move against Coyote, which is why they have been sending pretty redheads instead of an army of dragon slayers. Not saying it's gonna work, but this is a pretty big development. Coyote is capable of knowing everything, but he finds it boring, so he often chooses to be unknowing (in the linked page, his full-frontal facial expression is actually similar to Friday's). He certainly looks surprised here, even though he had been planning to die for literally centuries (and by Ysengrin for at least years). So he could have just chosen not to remember that Aata was capable of doing this, because it would be more fun, for the reasons maxptc mentions. By the way, this is worth keeping in mind whenever we think of the 'Coyote never lies' truth-twister. He could have intentionally decided not to know something, and then make a statement that is now technically correct. |
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mzpx
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Post by mzpx on Jul 17, 2021 6:39:18 GMT
Little bit off topic, but what's the deal with the shadow people? Based on our Shadow, they are capable of complex emotions just like a regular human is, so does their death also make the world spin? Isn't it somewhat intense to imagine that an etheric being created by humans, like Coyote, is capable of creating creatures that can, in turn, create etheric beings? I know that in the ether, time doesn't necessarily flow in one direction, and that MechaGoddess|Kat is also doing something similarly intense (although Kat started off as a flesh and bone human, so it's a bit different), but still. Also, just another example of the weirdness of time/conflicting stories in the ether: in the page you link, Jones states that Coyote created the shadow people from his own body when he already had all his powers. But in the side story, he creates them from a pebble before he gets any of his stripes. |
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manabi
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Post by manabi on Jul 17, 2021 6:42:25 GMT
I had a thought, since Aata seems to be the person at the court taking the lead in trying to "steal" Coyote's powers, but he finds etheric powers quite distasteful, perhaps the court isn't trying to take Coyote's powers to use them, but to lock them away or even destroy them. That could tie in to the Omega Project as well, since Omega is the end to Alpha's beginning. Maybe the Omega Project is the court trying to destroy the ether and all the powers that flow from it entirely?
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Post by todd on Jul 17, 2021 13:21:34 GMT
I had a thought, since Aata seems to be the person at the court taking the lead in trying to "steal" Coyote's powers, but he finds etheric powers quite distasteful, perhaps the court isn't trying to take Coyote's powers to use them, but to lock them away or even destroy them. That could tie in to the Omega Project as well, since Omega is the end to Alpha's beginning. Maybe the Omega Project is the court trying to destroy the ether and all the powers that flow from it entirely? The impression I had was that the Court is trying to study the ether, not to destroy it (although we've seen hints that trying to scientifically analyze the ether will end up inevitably destroying it, even if that's not what you intended), though it is possible that all those troubles with the forest-folk would have made destroying the ether seem tempting. (Though one "wild speculation" I've had is that the Court, frustrated with being unable to explain the ether and the phenomena and beings related to it from a scientific perspective, decided to destroy them, just so that they couldn't challenge its world-view any more.) We don't know, for that matter, whether the rest of the Court shares Aata's opinions or whether they are entirely his own; he could be supporting the Court entirely for his personal motives. (We also don't know, yet, whether he was an etheric being who became human - though, if so, he hasn't completely renounced his etheric nature yet - or a human turning into an etheric being. We'll need to find out which it is to understand better his distaste for etheric "tricks". Though, if he's the former, it's tempting to speculate that he was convinced that the Court would triumph, wipe out the etheric world, and his becoming - mostly - human and joining the Court was driven in part by self-preservation, a case of "desert to the side that's going to win".) |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 17, 2021 16:20:36 GMT
Little bit off topic, but what's the deal with the shadow people? Based on our Shadow, they are capable of complex emotions just like a regular human is, so does their death also make the world spin? Isn't it somewhat intense to imagine that an etheric being created by humans, like Coyote, is capable of creating creatures that can, in turn, create etheric beings? I know that in the ether, time doesn't necessarily flow in one direction, and that MechaGoddess|Kat is also doing something similarly intense (although Kat started off as a flesh and bone human, so it's a bit different), but still. Also, just another example of the weirdness of time/conflicting stories in the ether: in the page you link, Jones states that Coyote created the shadow people from his own body when he already had all his powers. But in the side story, he creates them from a pebble before he gets any of his stripes. Since it was all but confirmed Muut came to guide the shadow man who was killed while he possessed S13 into the Ether, that in turn means they also make the world spin. I am not sure whether the ant Coyote created from a pebble was supposed to be a real ant/human or just a trick he played on people. For the glass-eyed humans Coyote made are obviously living in Gillitie, Britain, and not in North America.
But...! I think we have to remember that in the GKC world things can be made retroactively true AND several conflicting pasts may be true. For example many of the divine beings who came about through human imagination did things like put the stars in the sky, create the earth or create humans. And, according to Coyote's and Jones' theories they indeed all did these things!
Buddha's story being a man who achieved enlightenment and a teacher rather than specifically a god... Important distinction? Edit: This post on reddit might be on the right track and he might not be Buddha at all? Failed cousin, maybe not because Coyote considers him a cousin, but because he was the Buddha's cousin? Interesting. Aata makes an odd comment too, implying that Coyote is bitter. I could think of many words to describe Coyote, but bitter would never have been one of them. I always thought he might be bitter about not being able to create humans. To me it seems the glass-eyed men were the bitter ones. They are the ones hating humans, because their creator forgot about them, being more interested in humans than his own creations.
Wow, this is a huge story progress! I think this is the first time we see someone else in the ether? What do you mean by someone else? We have seen lots of creatures in the Ether.
Can a thing die that doesn't exist? Is a person dead while they're remembered? I'd venture no, not really. But this flash of memory- is it the true Coyote, or something more like a butterfly pinned to a board? A snapshot, an after-image, a... program? Meant for some purpose by the one that made it. -Not truly alive, so to say it is dead means nothing? -Formed from specific memories to do/believe certain things? -Has Coyote tricked "himself" into thinking he is dead? I have tremendous trouble believing that Coyote can even die. If his tooth was so easily replaced, why not the rest of him? If a body missing a tooth can take a stone and be whole, can a tooth missing a body not do the same? It probably could, but needed to remember it is Coyote. Maybe that's the reason the Court could not just break the vial of lake water themselves to capture the part of Coyote hidden inside. It needed to connect with the "main" Coyote essence inside Loup to remember it was (part of) Coyote. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 17, 2021 16:23:37 GMT
By the way, my favourite comment from under the page, courtesy of spicedGumdrops:
"Failed Cousin is one of his less flattering nicknames"
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Post by foxurus on Jul 17, 2021 17:44:41 GMT
Since it was all but confirmed Muut came to guide the shadow man who was killed while he possessed S13 into the Ether, that in turn means they also make the world spin. Insects are taken by psychompomps, but they don't seem to have the power to make gods. To me it seems the glass-eyed men were the bitter ones. They are the ones hating humans, because their creator forgot about them, being more interested in humans than his own creations. The glass-eyed men are obviously bitter, but that doesn't mean Coyote isn't for different reasons. Being an almighty god and still not being able to recreate humans even though he tried? Coyote isn't used to having his power kept in check by anyone but himself. |
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Post by warrl on Jul 17, 2021 19:44:34 GMT
And I got the impression that what stopped Coyote from making the glass-eyed folk more truly human was a problem of attention span...
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 18, 2021 0:37:39 GMT
Since it was all but confirmed Muut came to guide the shadow man who was killed while he possessed S13 into the Ether, that in turn means they also make the world spin. Insects are taken by psychompomps, but they don't seem to have the power to make gods. I wouldn't be so sure about that. Maybe insects do not have the necessary imagination to make proper gods, but where does Ketrak come from then? He does not seem to be a creature from human myths and tales like the other psychopomps that were seen so far.
This comment from Tom as well as what he said in the chapter 16 retrospective to me sounds like insects in the GKC universe, while thinking in a way humans cannot grasp, do have an image of death and of a force that will come for them. I guess they are simply not creative enough to ask themselves the questions that lead humans to create deities. He sees at least the Great Spirit as being above him. Anyway, yes, it is possible, but Coyote just never has given any indication of being the type to be bitter about anything. If he doesn't succeed, he forgets about it because other things are more interesting, or makes a new plan. He might get sad and howl and cry. But he was never shown to be bitter. This does not mean Aata (or whatever his real name is) does not think Coyote is bitter about something. He could mean exactly that and be wrong. |
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Post by mordekai on Jul 18, 2021 6:08:54 GMT
Insects are taken by psychompomps, but they don't seem to have the power to make gods. I wouldn't be so sure about that. Maybe insects do not have the necessary imagination to make proper gods, but where does Ketrak come from then? He does not seem to be a creature from human myths and tales like the other psychopomps that were seen so far.
This comment from Tom as well as what he said in the chapter 16 retrospective to me sounds like insects in the GKC universe, while thinking in a way humans cannot grasp, do have an image of death and of a force that will come for them. I guess they are simply not creative enough to ask themselves the questions that lead humans to create deities. Ketrak could have been recruited just like Annie. Annie isn't a goddess born from belief, but she is a psychopomp... |
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Post by ditchboyus on Jul 18, 2021 9:07:20 GMT
Coyote can't lie about the world, but he might be able to lie about what his own thoughts are. Over the years I've seen a number of people make the claim that Coyote can't lie, but is that really based on the text? The only thing I can recall along those lines is the statement Jones made way back in Chapter 16, I think, that Coyote is no liar. Saying someone is not a liar is not the same as saying someone cannot lie. Is there anything in the text or Word of Tom about this that I've missed? |
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mzpx
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Post by mzpx on Jul 18, 2021 10:50:30 GMT
Coyote can't lie about the world, but he might be able to lie about what his own thoughts are. Over the years I've seen a number of people make the claim that Coyote can't lie, but is that really based on the text? The only thing I can recall along those lines is the statement Jones made way back in Chapter 16, I think, that Coyote is no liar. Saying someone is not a liar is not the same as saying someone cannot lie. Is there anything in the text or Word of Tom about this that I've missed? Actually, you are right. Word of Tom says that Coyote is very much capable of lying if he wants to. Even beyond Word of Tom, we have seen Coyote twist the truth in such ways that most people would consider it lying by omission. [Edit: other than Jones, Loup has also said that Coyote never lies but he also doesn't tell the truth. So it sounds like Coyote is capable of lying but doesn't find it as amusing as saying things that are technically true but are not really.] Coyote's section of the WoT is very interesting for other reasons, as well: Coyote only ever does things for his own amusement (including e.g. consoling Annie), if anyone stands between him and having fun, he gets very angry and we have no idea what he might be willing to do in such a situation. We are also told that he has done unforgiveable things and he doesn't regret them for a second. We have seen him to do a lot of very bad things, but this makes me think that we have not seen the worst that he's done. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 18, 2021 19:47:46 GMT
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Maybe insects do not have the necessary imagination to make proper gods, but where does Ketrak come from then? He does not seem to be a creature from human myths and tales like the other psychopomps that were seen so far.
This comment from Tom as well as what he said in the chapter 16 retrospective to me sounds like insects in the GKC universe, while thinking in a way humans cannot grasp, do have an image of death and of a force that will come for them. I guess they are simply not creative enough to ask themselves the questions that lead humans to create deities. Ketrak could have been recruited just like Annie. Annie isn't a goddess born from belief, but she is a psychopomp... Annie herself might not be born from belief, but her fire elemental ancestor was. Children from unions between humans and supernatural beings are also a common trope in human myths and tales.
Ketrak is not from a human story (Tom created him). The psychopomps we have seen coming for humans are all taken from stories, myths and religions exisiting in the real world. Ketrak isn't. So as long as the GKC world does not contain an additional tribe of humans who believed in an Insect Reaper the question remains.
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