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Post by bedinsis on May 3, 2021 7:01:49 GMT
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Post by flowsthead on May 3, 2021 7:08:34 GMT
There's something about the way Jones keeps repeating that she doesn't experience emotions that makes me...doubt. Like, she's established it so many times already, why repeat it? It's unusual.
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Post by King Mir on May 3, 2021 7:13:30 GMT
There's something about the way Jones keeps repeating that she doesn't experience emotions that makes me...doubt. Like, she's established it so many times already, why repeat it? It's unusual. Because it's the obvious retort. Anyone who gets some advice from the entity currently know as jones that they don't want to hear would naturally object by saying "what do you know about emotion?" I'm sure she's heard it countless times. Even people who have emotions but don't show them sometimes get this treatment. |
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Post by madjack on May 3, 2021 7:13:38 GMT
I think this is the point, Jones is unusual and has the outside perspective to go with it. It's probably a reminder both in universe and to the readers not to forget that, given she looks human. Edit: The above also works. |
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Post by flowsthead on May 3, 2021 7:21:11 GMT
There's something about the way Jones keeps repeating that she doesn't experience emotions that makes me...doubt. Like, she's established it so many times already, why repeat it? It's unusual. Because it's the obvious retort. Anyone who gets some advice from the entity currently know as jones that they don't want to hear would naturally object by saying "what do you know about emotion?" I'm sure she's heard it countless times. Even people who have emotions but don't show them sometimes get this treatment. I don't know that the context demands it, though. If Anthony is willing to open up in the first place, it seems doubtful he would throw it back at her. Maybe I'm deluding myself, but my basic stance is: Rumors of Jones's emotionlessness are greatly exaggerated. |
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Post by bicarbonat on May 3, 2021 7:21:16 GMT
"Tell her; stop resisting" is what the RockTherapy Free Plan gets you. Use code IMTRAUMATIZED for 10% off one month of the Unbreakable Plan
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Post by foxurus on May 3, 2021 7:22:34 GMT
There's something about the way Jones keeps repeating that she doesn't experience emotions that makes me...doubt. Like, she's established it so many times already, why repeat it? It's unusual. Pfft that's ridiculous, Jones doesn't have feelings. Humans have feelings, and they're far too interesting and cool and worthwhile for her to be like them. Jones should spend more time learning about animals before she makes statements about what's uniquely human. Elephants, for example, grieve when a herd member dies and even have funerals. |
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Post by flowsthead on May 3, 2021 7:32:59 GMT
There's something about the way Jones keeps repeating that she doesn't experience emotions that makes me...doubt. Like, she's established it so many times already, why repeat it? It's unusual. Pfft that's ridiculous, Jones doesn't have feelings. Humans have feelings, and they're far too interesting and cool and worthwhile for her to be like them. Jones should spend more time learning about animals before she makes statements about what's uniquely human. Elephants, for example, grieve when a herd member dies and even have funerals. I'll be more interested in the elephants if I heard that they invented anime. |
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Post by maxptc on May 3, 2021 7:42:50 GMT
If only humans experience grief, then why do we have pet therapists Jones? Checkmate.
But also more seriously, we've seen sentient non human life in this comic. Is Jones telling us none of those creatures experience grief, or that they are "human" to Jones? Seems like an odd thing for something like Jones to say.
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Post by Elysium on May 3, 2021 8:03:36 GMT
Fascinating, Tony, you're still a terrible person and I hate you.
And I will die on that hill.
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Post by theonethatgotaway on May 3, 2021 8:05:53 GMT
Thanks cpt. Obvious! This solved all the trauma!
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Post by foxurus on May 3, 2021 8:10:22 GMT
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Post by foxurus on May 3, 2021 8:11:01 GMT
Also I really like how Tony is drawn in the second panel.
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Post by silicondream on May 3, 2021 9:49:50 GMT
Eau. My.
No wonder our most positive parental pair got jealous of our most negative. Long ago that is.
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Post by frogspawned on May 3, 2021 11:41:11 GMT
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yinglung
Full Member
It's only a tatter of mime.
Posts: 190
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Post by yinglung on May 3, 2021 11:50:28 GMT
Going forward, I wonder what specifically Tony could do to get better at not being consumed by grief, and what Jones means by him denying grief. Or maybe she's also saying that grieving should be done in moderation.
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Post by machiavelli33 on May 3, 2021 12:35:58 GMT
Going forward, I wonder what specifically Tony could do to get better at not being consumed by grief, and what Jones means by him denying grief. I think every grieving person wonders, every time - and will, for so long as people exist. Grieving manifests in so, so many ways. I've seen grieving people push others away. I've seen grieving people destroy themselves. And I've seen grieving people avoid such extremes too - though in spite of that the process yet injures them nonetheless - injures their ability to be happy, injures their ability to work, injures their ability to be good. I think Jones speaks in vague terms because the process is exactly vague, and ill-defined. Coping with grief is one of the most baggage-laden ordeals a human being can endure. As outsiders, we can advise, we can admonish, we can hate, we can listen, we can care. But the one thing outsiders cannot do is make it easier. At best we can only keep it from being harder while the grief-stricken person seeks out what it is they actually need. I expect a lot more roughness in the road for Tony and for those around him as he does more seeking, before he'll be considered "well" again. Its kinda how it goes, doesn't it? Some people will have patience enough to stick around until he's alright again. Many, many others won't. ....and uh, I gotta say, the repeated incidence of supernatural-yet-baggage-laden shenanigans like time cloning, clone-fusing, Shadow Government control, robot bodies, death gods, fire elemental soul transfers and the like....well, I can't imagine its making the healing process EASIER. |
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Post by ghostiet on May 3, 2021 12:40:11 GMT
Going forward, I wonder what specifically Tony could do to get better at not being consumed by grief, and what Jones means by him denying grief. Or maybe she's also saying that grieving should be done in moderation. As for what he can do: talk to Annie. It really IS that simple. He fears she's going to hate him, but a) Annie wants few things more than a connection with her father, to the point where she was entirely willing to excuse his emotional abuse and b) she's shown compassion and understanding to someone so destructive and alien as Ysengrin. She can take on a dude on the spectrum who really misses his wife and has trouble relating to other people. Especially since Annie has some of those same problems. She's not as extreme about it as her parents, but she does have a tendency to be selfish, even if that selfishness manifests through good intentions. As for denying grief: he NEVER got over Surma. Part of his problem with Annie is that he saw her as Surma in some form. Not resembling Surma, but as Surma. He was so hellbent on bringing her back that he almost killed his own daughter by accident. Dude has never grieved for his wife properly, spending time trying to get her back and when he saw his kid for the first time in years, his first thought was that she looks like his wife. He's wallowing in sadness, pity and grief, but he hasn't actually DONE the grieving at any point in his life. He's gotta accept that Surma is gone and Annie isn't a reincarnation of her - and ironically, the fact that she's now essentially a fusion of separate people should help hammer that home, because that means she's more Antimony than she ever was. |
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Post by pyradonis on May 3, 2021 13:50:33 GMT
Because it's the obvious retort. Anyone who gets some advice from the entity currently know as jones that they don't want to hear would naturally object by saying "what do you know about emotion?" I'm sure she's heard it countless times. Even people who have emotions but don't show them sometimes get this treatment. I don't know that the context demands it, though. If Anthony is willing to open up in the first place, it seems doubtful he would throw it back at her. Maybe I'm deluding myself, but my basic stance is: Rumors of Jones's emotionlessness are greatly exaggerated. |
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Post by Elysium on May 3, 2021 13:50:59 GMT
As for what he can do: talk to Annie. It really IS that simple. And if talking is physically impossible, there are nifty human inventions called PAPER an a PEN which he can use to WRITE stuff with a cool head and time to formulate you thoughts. Isn't human technology the handiest? |
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Post by fia on May 3, 2021 13:54:30 GMT
Yeah you know, maybe if he talks to her he can see her as more like himself (rather than Surma) because they're BOTH grieving. Annie's doing better than him, but until recently not insanely better.
But I dunno. Is it possible for Tony to be different? We'll see. Jones may or may not grok the difficulty level of that for humans, of transcending our patterns. That makes her a good person to push him, in a way. Everyone else might think he's doomed to be the "same old Tony".
For Annie, I think he'll try, though.
EDIT: I hope they plant a tree together or something. To remember Surma. I don't think she even has a grave?
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Post by ctso74 on May 3, 2021 13:55:24 GMT
That feeling when, someone points out the obvious, making you feel like you fell out of the idiot tree, and hit every branch on the way down.
Seriously though, grief and love makes you do the crazy.
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ffkonoko
New Member
I've been a New Member for 9 years.
Posts: 44
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Post by ffkonoko on May 3, 2021 14:08:48 GMT
Yeah, this feels like the "This really is an obvious answer, but when ones brain is twisted up, sometimes you miss the obvious" moment, that could have been solved much earlier if people just talked to Tony instead of either having quiet sympathy or hating him from a distance. Thanks cpt. Obvious! This solved all the trauma! "Have you tried just not being depressed? Just be happy!" |
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Post by Elysium on May 3, 2021 14:24:53 GMT
"Have you tried just not being depressed? Just be happy!" That's not nearly comparable. |
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Post by ysenfrown on May 3, 2021 14:38:33 GMT
Eau. My. No wonder our most positive parental pair got jealous of our most negative. Long ago that is. I'm racking my brains trying to figure out what you mean by this! When did Donny and Anja get jealous? |
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Post by Gemminie on May 3, 2021 14:54:29 GMT
Without reading any comments, I think we have a bit of sarcasm from Tony and then something that hits him deeply. In the first frame, Jones finally pipes up after a long monologue from Tony. The obvious solution to his problem is to tell Annie about how his mind and body betray him.
Tony pauses, his face absolutely neutral. What we may be seeing is a brief slamming of the mind cage at the very thought of telling Annie this. I can't be certain, of course.
After that pause, I think Tony's expression and response are sarcastic. Of course he's thought of this before. He's probably tried it numerous times, I'm sure, over the years. It hasn't worked. There's no reason to believe it would work now.
Tony then asks what else Jones would recommend, using the words "for a mind like mine." Because certainly he's done research about people with conditions like his, and he knows Jones has met millions of humans during her existence, so it's far from impossible that she's met someone else with a condition like his.
Jones' response at first acknowledges her experiences: all minds have similarities, but each is unique. She does not, however, acknowledge having encountered a mind with a condition like Tony's. She then, however, shifts the topic to the emotion of grief, and wisely so, in my opinion, because it is his true problem, the one that something could be done about. Can his mind cage condition be fixed? Maybe, but probably not. But can grief be worked through, its impact lessened? Absolutely. Jones can't experience it, but she's certainly seen a lot of it and learned from it. If it weren't for grief, Tony wouldn't have disappeared, wouldn't have contacted the malignant spirit entities that may or may not have been spirit guides, wouldn't have been forced to come back under conditions that disrupted Annie's emotions and life, and so on. He might be able to see Annie without also seeing Surma if he could work through his grief. But of course it's hard to do that when your mind won't let you talk about your emotions except one-on-one. He needs a therapist. We know Lindsey is a couples therapist, but she may have enough general therapy training to deal with grief counseling, and the existence of one therapist in the Court suggests that there may be others – and of course there's the outside world. Perhaps he could go see someone once a week.
Finally, Jones adds that balance is necessary with grief – you mustn't spend all of your attention on it (as Tony did on his odyssey), but you also mustn't spend none (as he seems to have been doing since his return). Tony seems to be heavily impacted by what she says; he's leaned farther forward, and we can't see his face well, because his head is farther downward. And there's a Dutch angle in that final frame, usually a cinematic indicator that things are not right, or that there's emotional intensity. What's more, this is a zoom out, showing both people in this conversation, so this might be a scene ender. No antimony symbol, so it's not the end of the chapter, but we might be going on to something else for the next page. Will we cut to something Tony does as a result of this conversation? Will we cut to something surprising before the chapter ends? Or am I wrong, and will the conversation continue?
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Post by Gemminie on May 3, 2021 14:58:12 GMT
Rumors of Jones's emotionlessness are greatly exaggerated. My speculation here is that Jones does experience emotions, but they're types of emotions that humans don't and can't have. Some of them come close – she has a desire to experience life, to live among humans, and to learn about them. She chooses certain individuals to spend time with, so she does form attachments. But I think human languages don't have words for the emotions she feels – though one would think that over time she'd come up with her own words for them. Perhaps she has, but simply doesn't share them, and finds it easier to simply say that she doesn't experience emotions than to try to explain them to humans who can't really understand them. |
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Post by Daedalus on May 3, 2021 15:02:35 GMT
Even as we see things from his perspective, I still have very little sympathy for Tony. He always feels like a negligent-bordering-on-abusive parent making excuses.
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V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
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Post by V on May 3, 2021 15:04:00 GMT
That feeling when, someone points out the obvious, making you feel like you fell out of the idiot tree, and hit every branch on the way down. |
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Post by Corvo on May 3, 2021 15:04:56 GMT
Going forward, I wonder what specifically Tony could do to get better at not being consumed by grief, and what Jones means by him denying grief. Or maybe she's also saying that grieving should be done in moderation. As for what he can do: talk to Annie. It really IS that simple. ...  "So my mind closed off to her. No matter how I wished otherwise."As for what he can do: talk to Annie. It really IS that simple. And if talking is physically impossible, there are nifty human inventions called PAPER an a PEN which he can use to WRITE stuff with a cool head and time to formulate you thoughts. Isn't human technology the handiest?  |
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