|
|
Post by mitten on May 3, 2021 15:12:05 GMT
"Have you tried just not being depressed? Just be happy!" That's not nearly comparable. No, it really isn't. Tony doesn't have to be happy, he doesn't have to stop grieving. It's only natural that he's still grieving. But if he wants to be a good parent, then he does need to work through his grief in a way that doesn't harm his daughter. That would be true of any grieving parent, with or without mental or physical ailments of their own. If, let's say, a grieving parent had a disability that made it very painful for them to walk, it wouldn't be considered reasonable to say 'It hurts to walk, so I haven't fed my child for the past couple of days.' A parent doesn't get to lash out at their child over their resemblance to a dead spouse, and a parent doesn't get to say 'Well, this is just the way I am.' If they truly can't cope on their own, they owe it to their child to ask somebody for help. Maybe that won't make things perfect, but at least there's a chance of making them better. Briefly summarized: Yes, I'm sure this is hard for him, very hard even, but it really is that simple. |
|
|
|
Post by Elysium on May 3, 2021 15:20:28 GMT
Indeed, now get going Tony, chop chop! |
|
|
|
Post by ghostiet on May 3, 2021 15:25:14 GMT
As for what he can do: talk to Annie. It really IS that simple. ...  "So my mind closed off to her. No matter how I wished otherwise."And if talking is physically impossible, there are nifty human inventions called PAPER an a PEN which he can use to WRITE stuff with a cool head and time to formulate you thoughts. Isn't human technology the handiest?  "Simple" doesn't automatically imply "easy". Tony can absolutely dread talking to Annie and he is certainly entitled to anxiety given his mental issues and trauma, but yes, the answer IS so simple, even if the execution might be very hard. It's hard enough in normal circumstances. This entire conversation and Tony's hoops reminds me of the time Kat was upset about Antimony leaving abruptly for the Summer and Antimony elected to contrive a million situations to "apologize" to Kat instead of going out and saying it, which ended up only aggravating Kat more and not resolving anything. The two Carvers don't need to do dance numbers, talk about boys or even hang out daily to have a functional relationship. Tony leaving a letter saying "kid, I wish to be a better father but it's very hard and I am very bad at communication" would go a long way to establish a proper connection. Especially since Annie knows all of this, but always from second hand sources. |
|
V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
|
Post by V on May 3, 2021 15:37:37 GMT
This entire conversation and Tony's hoops reminds me of the time Kat was upset about Antimony leaving abruptly for the Summer and Antimony elected to contrive a million situations to "apologize" to Kat instead of going out and saying it, which ended up only aggravating Kat more and not resolving anything. Sorry, had to pick up on this one. "Kat, are you okay? I'm so sorry about the summer holiday" was one of the first things Annie said. And then, after hearing Kat out, once more. It did not work. |
|
|
|
Post by Gemminie on May 3, 2021 15:43:04 GMT
Yeah you know, maybe if he talks to her he can see her as more like himself (rather than Surma) because they're BOTH grieving. Annie's doing better than him, but until recently not insanely better. But I dunno. Is it possible for Tony to be different? We'll see. Jones may or may not grok the difficulty level of that for humans, of transcending our patterns. That makes her a good person to push him, in a way. Everyone else might think he's doomed to be the "same old Tony". For Annie, I think he'll try, though. EDIT: I hope they plant a tree together or something. To remember Surma. I don't think she even has a grave? If she does, it's probably somewhere in Birmingham. |
|
|
|
Post by ohthatone on May 3, 2021 16:52:54 GMT
Yeah you know, maybe if he talks to her he can see her as more like himself (rather than Surma) because they're BOTH grieving. Annie's doing better than him, but until recently not insanely better. But I dunno. Is it possible for Tony to be different? We'll see. Jones may or may not grok the difficulty level of that for humans, of transcending our patterns. That makes her a good person to push him, in a way. Everyone else might think he's doomed to be the "same old Tony". For Annie, I think he'll try, though. EDIT: I hope they plant a tree together or something. To remember Surma. I don't think she even has a grave? If she does, it's probably somewhere in Birmingham. Why wouldnt she have a grave? Even if tony didn't bother dealing with a burial or cremation dont they still have to dispose of the body respectfully? (I actually dont know what happens if the family refuses/cant claim a body...surmas dad, you still around??) Uuuuuuuunless tony had her frozen just in case... |
|
ffkonoko
New Member
I've been a New Member for 9 years.
Posts: 44
|
Post by ffkonoko on May 3, 2021 17:05:16 GMT
"Have you tried just not being depressed? Just be happy!" That's not nearly comparable. I didn't say it was a one to one comparison, or direct criticism. The "Thanks captain obvious, this solves all the trauma" still reminded me of it. Just add it to the list of things we disagree on? |
|
|
|
Post by maxptc on May 3, 2021 17:23:51 GMT
If she does, it's probably somewhere in Birmingham. Why wouldnt she have a grave? Even if tony didn't bother dealing with a burial or cremation dont they still have to dispose of the body respectfully? (I actually dont know what happens if the family refuses/cant claim a body...surmas dad, you still around??) Uuuuuuuunless tony had her frozen just in case... With the information we have, we can't even confirm there was a body. Not that one is needed for a grave or funeral, but Surma could have just disappeared for all we know about fire elementals passing on the flame. Gravestone is the kinda thing you get when you've accepted the person is dead, so I personally doubt Tony had one made for Surma, but who knows. |
|
V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
|
Post by V on May 3, 2021 17:31:32 GMT
Why wouldnt she have a grave? Even if tony didn't bother dealing with a burial or cremation dont they still have to dispose of the body respectfully? (I actually dont know what happens if the family refuses/cant claim a body...surmas dad, you still around??) Uuuuuuuunless tony had her frozen just in case... With the information we have, we can't even confirm there was a body. Not that one is needed for a grave or funeral, but Surma could have just disappeared for all we know about fire elementals passing on the flame. Gravestone is the kinda thing you get when you've accepted the person is dead, so I personally doubt Tony had one made for Surma, but who knows. For what it's worth, people have pointed out that we can see the body left behind in #530. |
|
|
|
Post by maxptc on May 3, 2021 17:42:53 GMT
With the information we have, we can't even confirm there was a body. Not that one is needed for a grave or funeral, but Surma could have just disappeared for all we know about fire elementals passing on the flame. Gravestone is the kinda thing you get when you've accepted the person is dead, so I personally doubt Tony had one made for Surma, but who knows. For what it's worth, people have pointed out that we can see the body left behind in #530. Oh I've never caught that. I mean it's common sense, but I thought there was a chance Surmas physical body was all that was left for Annie to guide. |
|
|
|
Post by sebastian on May 3, 2021 18:07:37 GMT
"Have you tried just not being depressed? Just be happy!" That's not nearly comparable. Why not? I mean It isn't that just don't want to talk to Annie, he can't. When he is with her his body just refuse to obey him. Tell him to just talk to Annie is like tell a paraplegic to just stand and walk it off. |
|
|
|
Post by maxptc on May 3, 2021 18:24:18 GMT
That's not nearly comparable. Why not? I mean It isn't that just don't want to talk to Annie, he can't. When he is with her his body just refuse to obey him. Tell him to just talk to Annie is like tell a paraplegic to just stand and walk it off. I thought Tony couldn't be himself(emote?) around Annie, not that he couldn't physically speak. Even if its an explanation delivered in a cold, logical, prepared format he should be able to talk to her about this. Nothing he's said has made me think he isn't able to control his actions and words, just his emotions. In fact, he can and has controlled those as well, he just can't express them properly. If needed Tony can write a script and follow it word for word, no one is expecting him to be able to speak from the heart, just for him to try talking about the issue instead of shutting down because it seems like an immsumountable obstacle. |
|
|
|
Post by Elysium on May 3, 2021 18:48:04 GMT
I mean It isn't that just don't want to talk to Annie, he can't. When he is with her his body just refuse to obey him. Then surely he can pick a pen and write on a piece of paper? If soldiers can give their final words to their families from beyond the grave with letters, I'm sure a mind such as Tony would be able to extract the full usefulness of that admittedly complicated piece of technology. Or, just go see a therapist, either way, he had options and took none of them. |
|
|
|
Post by sebastian on May 3, 2021 18:53:42 GMT
I mean It isn't that just don't want to talk to Annie, he can't. When he is with her his body just refuse to obey him. Then surely he can pick a pen and write on a piece of paper? If soldiers can give their final words to their families from beyond the grave with letters, I'm sure a mind such as Tony would be able to extract the full usefulness of that admittedly complicated piece of technology. Or, just go see a therapist, either way, he had options and took none of them. Yes, I think it is the thing with the best chance to works, especially now he have his hand back. About the Therapist: How do you know he didn't? |
|
|
|
Post by Elysium on May 3, 2021 19:05:07 GMT
About the Therapist: How do you know he didn't? Something that is neither stated or implied by the story didn't happen. |
|
|
|
Post by aline on May 3, 2021 19:12:02 GMT
That's not nearly comparable. Why not? I mean It isn't that just don't want to talk to Annie, he can't. When he is with her his body just refuse to obey him. Tell him to just talk to Annie is like tell a paraplegic to just stand and walk it off. I don't think it's quite that dramatic. He can't be natural, relaxed and himself around Annie, sure, and that's not something he can just switch at will. But he's perfectly capable of talking to her. It's just a very heavy topic that he has avoided. We all know how hard it can be to talk about certain things because they are very charged emotionally, very raw and painful, and even though deep down we know we should speak about it, we avoid it. |
|
|
|
Post by alevice on May 3, 2021 19:39:17 GMT
"Simple" doesn't automatically imply "easy". Tony can absolutely dread talking to Annie and he is certainly entitled to anxiety given his mental issues and trauma, but yes, the answer IS so simple, even if the execution might be very hard. It's hard enough in normal circumstances. This entire conversation and Tony's hoops reminds me of the time Kat was upset about Antimony leaving abruptly for the Summer and Antimony elected to contrive a million situations to "apologize" to Kat instead of going out and saying it, which ended up only aggravating Kat more and not resolving anything. The two Carvers don't need to do dance numbers, talk about boys or even hang out daily to have a functional relationship. Tony leaving a letter saying "kid, I wish to be a better father but it's very hard and I am very bad at communication" would go a long way to establish a proper connection. Especially since Annie knows all of this, but always from second hand sources. WHile I dont reach the extend of Tonys anxiety, I have had situation where tryignt o just "man up" and do it end up into sayign things in a way it sounded worse than intended and ended up making the situation worse until very later. A letter is hardly enough, ends up being mostly just a way to mitigate a problem but hardly ever solve it, in my experience havign both giver and receiver |
|
laaaa
Full Member
Posts: 247
|
Post by laaaa on May 3, 2021 19:51:40 GMT
I'd like to share here a story about a couple I read (not sure where) some time ago; I feel it might be relevant to Tony. I hope I won't butcher it, here goes:
The guy was autistic, the girl was recounting the story.
She said he was nice, kind, and thoughtful, but had trouble with situations that would cause him social stress. Once, she was returning from a trip, and they had agreed beforehand that he would leave work early that day and come pick her up from the airport with his car. She arrived there and waited and waited, but he wouldn't arrive. For some reason, telephone communication wasn't helpful (I don't remember if it took place a while ago and there were no mobiles, or if her mobile was out of commission for some reason, or if she called and he wouldn't answer, or if she called and he said he was still at work). I don't remember if after a couple of hours she called a taxi and returned home by herself or if he finally arrived to pick her up, hours later. Anyway, by the time they met again she was both tired and upset.
His explanation? He couldn't find the nerve to go talk to his boss and ask to leave earlier. It was extremely socially distressing for him to do that, so he just waited and waited.
Of course, the girl was still pissed because it sounded like a lame excuse. And it was like he was getting revenge at her for something, because the guy also acted pissed. He was sullen and angry and would barely say anything to her. She was appalled that not only he messed up, but acted as if she was to blame for something.
And when she inquired whether "Aren't you even going to say anything?!" his reply was:
"What's there to say? What I did was inexcusable. I'm furious with myself. Nothing I could say could make up for it."
And of course she was relieved that his anger was aimed at himself instead of her and that he understood that what he did was wrong etc etc.
Where I'm going with this is, it's possible that Tony feels like a conversation explaining all this would be inadequate, an apology meaningless. Maybe he realizes the explanation would be simple, theoretically, but feels like he has no right to even try to explain himself to Annie because his behavior is inexcusable. He might feel like writing a letter would be insulting to Annie, like breaking up through a text message. He might even be postponing this, trying to push himself to find the courage to do it the 'right' way.
I could be wrong though about any and all of the above, of course. :-)
|
|
|
|
Post by warrl on May 3, 2021 20:06:35 GMT
I don't know that the context demands it, though. If Anthony is willing to open up in the first place, it seems doubtful he would throw it back at her. Maybe I'm deluding myself, but my basic stance is: Rumors of Jones's emotionlessness are greatly exaggerated. I would submit that a being completely free of emotion would not keep a photo album of past and current friends. |
|
|
|
Post by adenil on May 3, 2021 21:46:39 GMT
I don't really understand people saying Tony should just write it down. To me that doesn't seem like a solution. He's smart enough to know that he's writing it down specifically to give to Annie. Why would that make it easier? I would assume he would be consumed by the same anxiety every time he sat down to write.
|
|
|
|
Post by AluK on May 3, 2021 22:18:30 GMT
Where I'm going with this is, it's possible that Tony feels like a conversation explaining all this would be inadequate, an apology meaningless. Maybe he realizes the explanation would be simple, theoretically, but feels like he has no right to even try to explain himself to Annie because his behavior is inexcusable. He might feel like writing a letter would be insulting to Annie, like breaking up through a text message. He might even be postponing this, trying to push himself to find the courage to do it the 'right' way. I could be wrong though about any and all of the above, of course. :-) And that's a line of thinking that's pretty common for socially anxious people. Sometimes we know that we fucked up, we feel bad and angry at ourselves for it. Then we go into this loop where it doesn't feel appropriate to explain ourselves because why of course we'd have an excuse, right? But we know we owe an explanation, so we keep delaying this, feeling worse and worse. Fixing things should be simple, but human interactions never are simple. There are emotions and stuff. We can't control how things will go, and we can't help but feel were going to make everything worse. Being broken doesn't excuse things. But knowing you're broken also doesn't make it any easier to deal with it. |
|
|
|
Post by Bandolute on May 3, 2021 22:30:02 GMT
I don't really understand people saying Tony should just write it down. To me that doesn't seem like a solution. He's smart enough to know that he's writing it down specifically to give to Annie. Why would that make it easier? I would assume he would be consumed by the same anxiety every time he sat down to write. Because Antimony is owed the most direct explanation and affirmation of his love that is possible, and even if writing it down is a painful process, it's a reasonable compromise he can approach at his own pace. Maybe even therapeutic, in a cathartic way. I mean, we know just THINKING about Annie isn't enough to invoke the mind cage effect, because he's chatting quite comfortably right now and Annie is the subject of the conversation. I mean, fuck. If he has to? He could write it indirectly, without addressing her. A clinical description of his condition. Then write like he's talking ABOUT her instead of to her, write about how he loves his daughter, like he's describing it to some random person, and give her the letter anyhow, and I'd accept that he did his best. And if she wanted to talk about it with him, maybe she could even write back, for his comfort, and we'd have a dialog going. He could get to know Annie better. She could share some of her own grief and other issues with him. Why is this not even an option? |
|
|
|
Post by frogspawned on May 3, 2021 22:46:10 GMT
Yeah, or he could tell a robot how he feels, get them to print something out on the subject - and have that delivered.
It worked for Paz.
|
|
yinglung
Full Member
It's only a tatter of mime.
Posts: 190
|
Post by yinglung on May 3, 2021 23:06:13 GMT
Writing things down may be less emotionally fraught than speaking directly to Annie, but it still can be more than he can handle in his current state.
I endlessly procrastinate emailing for advice from someone whose job it is to help me, who would be glad and eager to help me. Each time I think about it, stress builds up, my paranoid mind projects my annoyance with myself onto them, and all too often, I switch to looking at memes, reading stories, anything to distract myself and destress. This is my behavior, and I am better at opening up to people than Tony.
Tony has failed Annie, first by not being able to save her mother, then by abandoning her, and then by almost killing her. And after that, he failed her by making her miserable when he did come back. He has four serious reasons why he hates himself, that he is likely projecting onto Annie despite her almost never showing him any anger, let alone hate. It's not rational, it's not healthy, it's not excusing what he has done. But it's why interacting with Annie on a human level is so incredibly difficult for him. Writing a letter may be like taking one brick off the top of the Great Wall of China. The barrier is lower, sure, but it doesn't meaningfully change the root of the problem. Having negative experiences with someone makes the social anxiety of interacting with that person exponentially more intense.
All that being said, Tony's social anxiety has been brought up enough times and with enough elaboration up to this point that I would be majorly surprised if he doesn't take some kind of concrete step towards dealing with it before the end of the chapter. It could be writing a letter to Annie, it could be making/visiting a grave for Surma, or something else entirely.
|
|
|
|
Post by lurkerbot on May 3, 2021 23:23:41 GMT
Yeah, or he could tell a robot how he feels... One could say that he has just done something similar over the past few pages. |
|
|
|
Post by davidm on May 4, 2021 0:23:19 GMT
As for what he can do: talk to Annie. It really IS that simple. And if talking is physically impossible, there are nifty human inventions called PAPER an a PEN which he can use to WRITE stuff with a cool head and time to formulate you thoughts. Isn't human technology the handiest? Some people have extreme problems with writing stuff down, they start then stop then tear up the sheet and try again. |
|
|
|
Post by davidm on May 4, 2021 0:28:43 GMT
There's something about the way Jones keeps repeating that she doesn't experience emotions that makes me...doubt. Like, she's established it so many times already, why repeat it? It's unusual. Pfft that's ridiculous, Jones doesn't have feelings. Humans have feelings, and they're far too interesting and cool and worthwhile for her to be like them. Jones should spend more time learning about animals before she makes statements about what's uniquely human. Elephants, for example, grieve when a herd member dies and even have funerals. More proof that Jones is not really what she says, if she was around for thousands of years she would know how elephants and others grieve. Its time to face the truth, Gunnerkrigg court is a mental hospital, and Jones is just another crazy person. There are no such things as fairies and coyotes and fire elementals that have sex with humans and somehow make babies and Jones that have been around since beginning of earth, and Boxbot is not terrible. |
|
|
|
Post by machiavelli33 on May 4, 2021 1:20:55 GMT
About the Therapist: How do you know he didn't? Something that is neither stated or implied by the story didn't happen. The big problem established is that its heavily suggested that the court either doesn't have or actively discourages efforts at mental wellness. Its certainly meant to mirror English boarding schools in that respect, where the solution to mental problems is, quite literally, "Just get over it". The Court is a cookpot for all sorts of mental health issues. How many people - adults, teens, children - have we met, who would really benefit from help from a licensed counselor, who hasn't gotten it? Eglamore? Kat? Jack? Zimmy, Gamma heck, ALL OF CHESTER? The cosmic world at large doesn't even seem to consider this sort of thing. They put Mort in a job, when he no doubt could have benefited from talking to someone about being blown up. "He turned out alright, right?" And HECK. Let's not pretend therapy is so easy to get, even in our real world. Its important to have, but you deal with NHS in Britain, or you deal with insurance in USA - NHS probably being the most relevant given GC's setting. If Tony's is a problem with a silver bullet, then let's not forget that silver goddamned bullets can be hard to come by, eh? |
|
|
|
Post by maxptc on May 4, 2021 1:36:49 GMT
Something that is neither stated or implied by the story didn't happen. The big problem established is that its heavily suggested that the court either doesn't have or actively discourages efforts at mental wellness. Its certainly meant to mirror English boarding schools in that respect, where the solution to mental problems is, quite literally, "Just get over it".  Is this another thing I missed? The only suggestion about mental health services I recall seeing in comic is that Lindsey is an accredited couples therapist. I have to assume she does that for the Court, I mean thats not really a hobby. |
|
|
|
Post by todd on May 4, 2021 1:37:35 GMT
I still suspect that the Court might not want its residents that stable, for fear that if they did, they might start questioning the Court's big project. Stable enough so that they'll do a good job on putting the Omega Device together, but not so stable that it would occur to them that working on something with a name like "Omega Device" might not be a good idea.
Maybe the troubles with the Forest are just one of the negative consequences of the Court's big enterprise.
|
|
