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Post by bedinsis on Apr 30, 2021 7:01:13 GMT
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Post by blazingstar on Apr 30, 2021 7:05:43 GMT
The last few pages have been pretty much one of my worst fears as a neurodiverse person: what if my disorder affects my ability to connect with or relate to my future children, and being emotionally close with them is impossible for me?
The anxiety. I cannot deal. It's too painful to see this from Tony's perspective right now. I think I'll sit this discussion out for awhile.
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V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
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Post by V on Apr 30, 2021 7:17:12 GMT
So he's not meaning either of them in particular in #2456... that was unexpected. I somehow expected this update to say something about why Courtnie's disguise did not work earlier. Guess we'll have to do with the theories people came up with here for now. But Tony, what the hell. You wanted one person to talk to, and you're yourself saying one is what Annie is now. Your cage should make up its mind. Nevertheless, Annie is smiling now, which is good. She's used to put up with this, and in fact knows her father cares. Maybe a part of his failure is keeping focussed on how to transmit this particular message, which can indeed be a hard thing to tell someone to the point of crippling all other communication – but it has already been received! |
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Post by jda on Apr 30, 2021 7:18:47 GMT
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Post by dramastix on Apr 30, 2021 7:28:58 GMT
This is heartbreaking. That's all I got.
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Post by bicarbonat on Apr 30, 2021 8:27:50 GMT
It's unfortunate that even sending missives (ex: via video) to her wouldn't work. Short of secretly recording his confessions and relaying them to Annie, there's no natural & immediate means of circumventing the mind cage.
I wonder if he'll ever find himself at the business end of another Faustian bargain - this time, giving up/accepting something in order to be free of the cage so that he can finally be "deserving" of his daughter.
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V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
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Post by V on Apr 30, 2021 8:34:34 GMT
It's unfortunate that even sending missives (ex: via video) to her wouldn't work. Short of secretly recording his confessions and relaying them to Annie, there's no natural & immediate means of circumventing the mind cage. Well, if taken literally, Jones is a secret recording device. It would be interesting to see this used as a plot device! |
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Post by philman on Apr 30, 2021 8:59:59 GMT
Please, Tony, the court must have therapists, surely?
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Post by bicarbonat on Apr 30, 2021 9:00:17 GMT
It's unfortunate that even sending missives (ex: via video) to her wouldn't work. Short of secretly recording his confessions and relaying them to Annie, there's no natural & immediate means of circumventing the mind cage. Well, if taken literally, Jones is a secret recording device. It would be interesting to see this used as a plot device! Yep, that's why I couched it as a caveat. She'd be the secret recording (the secrecy being that he doesn't know whether Jones will relay what he's saying). If she can recall entire prehistoric ages, I'm sure she can handle Tony's little monologue. |
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Post by justcurious on Apr 30, 2021 9:12:19 GMT
I doubt his condition or situation are curable. But he unintentionally found a temporary work around with Forest Annie. This involved him doubting whether she was his daughter and hence whether Surma was there. It looks like he needs to find a way to not see Surma in Annie. To make it easier it looks like he only needs to doubt her presence. I don't know how he can do this but it looks like the most likely way for him to be able to open up around her.
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Post by foxurus on Apr 30, 2021 9:16:34 GMT
I hope one day Annie gets to hear her dad tell her he loves her. I hope Tony gets to say it to her some day.
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Post by bedinsis on Apr 30, 2021 9:31:23 GMT
I doubt his condition or situation are curable. But he unintentionally found a temporary work around with Forest Annie. This involved him doubting whether she was his daughter and hence whether Surma was there. It looks like he needs to find a way to not see Surma in Annie. To make it easier it looks like he only needs to doubt her presence. I don't know how he can do this but it looks like the most likely way for him to be able to open up around her. I wonder if it would help if Annie were more talkative around him. If she were, Tony would be forced to see more of her personality and therefore note more how she and Surma are different people and therefore to a greater degree accept that they are not the one and the same. |
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Post by rafk on Apr 30, 2021 9:51:21 GMT
"Why, I couldn't even tell someone like you Jones, and ask you to tell her that I actually love her very much and it's just my mental illness that makes me act like a dick towards her all the time and made me abandon her for 3 years and never apologise for it".
Eh, at this point if he said it it would just feel like a retcon.
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Post by red4bestgirl on Apr 30, 2021 9:51:41 GMT
It is very hard to overstate how much it sucks to have an arc about how mental health problems mean you can’t help but be an emotionally abusive parent
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Post by red4bestgirl on Apr 30, 2021 9:54:12 GMT
I doubt his condition or situation are curable. But he unintentionally found a temporary work around with Forest Annie. This involved him doubting whether she was his daughter and hence whether Surma was there. It looks like he needs to find a way to not see Surma in Annie. To make it easier it looks like he only needs to doubt her presence. I don't know how he can do this but it looks like the most likely way for him to be able to open up around her. I wonder if it would help if Annie were more talkative around him. If she were, Tony would be forced to see more of her personality and therefore note more how she and Surma are different people and therefore to a greater degree accept that they are not the one and the same. It is not a child’s duty to fix their abusive parent. If Tony is incapable of providing a non toxic home where Annie isn’t subject to neglect, then he has a moral duty to move her to a home where she won’t have to deal with that problem; that’s what actually loving her would entail. Not continuing the situation and blaming his “cruel mind” |
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Post by bedinsis on Apr 30, 2021 10:13:29 GMT
I wonder if it would help if Annie were more talkative around him. If she were, Tony would be forced to see more of her personality and therefore note more how she and Surma are different people and therefore to a greater degree accept that they are not the one and the same. It is not a child’s duty to fix their abusive parent. I agree. I was merely speculating. |
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 30, 2021 10:16:13 GMT
The first thought: this would give a better result if Jones did this back when blinker stone was available.
She is no stranger to subterfuge, but much slower than Donald.
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Post by philman on Apr 30, 2021 10:33:23 GMT
It is very hard to overstate how much it sucks to have an arc about how mental health problems mean you can’t help but be an emotionally abusive parent It's not that though? It's an arc about how Tony's mental health problem is making him a bad parent.
If you're interpreting that to mean that that Tom is suggesting that all mental health problems make you an awful parent then you're extrapolating way too much. Just because this is true for one character doesn't make it true for everyone else at all.
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Post by arf on Apr 30, 2021 10:58:58 GMT
I note that this is Annie as we saw her at the start of the comic, just as she was heading out with Kat and Rey.
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V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
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Post by V on Apr 30, 2021 11:42:27 GMT
Well, if taken literally, Jones is a secret recording device. It would be interesting to see this used as a plot device! Yep, that's why I couched it as a caveat. She'd be the secret recording (the secrecy being that he doesn't know whether Jones will relay what he's saying). If she can recall entire prehistoric ages, I'm sure she can handle Tony's little monologue. My fault, I did not understand that's what you were already suggesting. I wish they could interface the lady to a video projector somehow! Just "he says he loves you" would be pretty lame and kind of sad (albeit surely enough to induce this). |
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Post by stevecharb on Apr 30, 2021 11:46:45 GMT
Imagine if Anthony had invested an iota of the effort he spent trying to bring Surma back, instead, into seeking help and treatment for this mind cage so he could function as a father. He still deserved this |
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Post by fia on Apr 30, 2021 12:03:45 GMT
My heart breaks for Tony, honestly. Again, I hope there's a work-around. For now there isn't. For what it's worth, being the daughter of two non-neurotypical persons who are socially stunted in different ways and who I resemble myself, although my parents are not perfect and I do fight with them occasionally when we just can't communicate, I cannot imagine having other parents, and I love mine very much. I know they love me very much. One of them can voice it more than the other, but I always knew growing up that they loved me. I'm not sure how much Annie knows, but I think that she intuits it somewhat from Tony. I don't think it's just that she wants to please him and make him like her, that she needs a parent so she latched on to the only one she had or something. I think she is also trying to tell him that she loves him, but can't tell him that in so many words. (How, you know, he's so awkward?) She genuinely loves her dad; the thing that has upset her more than anything else in the comic, besides the pain of her dead mom, is when people say mean things about her dad. Even though she's used to people not liking her dad, it bothers her, because she does. There's no question for me that she was able to bond with Ysengrin in part because she groks his stoicism. Ysengrin was a little more vocal than Tony, and more aggressive, but they both taught her how to fight and pushed her to be better, not to just rely on easy ways out of problems. And she has chosen twice now to live with Tony rather than by herself or with a friend. This is just my way of trying to say people don't need to be perfect parents to be parents a kid wants to have. We stigmatize mental illness sometimes in such a way that makes no distinction between genuinely unsuitable parents (people who constantly put down their kids or who are physically abusive; or parents who compete with their own children; or parents who substitute themselves for their children who do not let children make their own choices) and parents who are not perfect but are the best parent for their own child. Tony I guess could have written to Donald to adopt Antimony, and he might have I'm sure, but Antimony would never truly be able to get over being abandoned by someone she loved. That was why Tony being gone for 3 years was hard – Tony thought Annie could do without him. She really can't. I don't think she should have to. Tony is not perfect, but Tony is the parent she needs. That's my 2¢ |
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 30, 2021 13:06:57 GMT
I almost feel bad not contributing anything emotional, relatable or insightful at this point, but almost everyone speaking up here is better at it than me.
So, my actual first thought when seeing this page was, again, "Cube Escape!".
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Post by Gemminie on Apr 30, 2021 13:10:32 GMT
Another non-framed page. We first see Annie as she appeared at the start of the chapter. And Tony confirms another suspicion: that he's also closed off around Recombined Annie, just as he was around Original Annie and Court Annie. And he continues to state how frustrating and horrible it is that he can't tell his daughter he loves her, and can barely even show her.
There is a series of images of the symbolic man inside the cage, falling downwards, away into a black abyss. What does the black abyss represent? Death, perhaps? Is he afraid that he won't solve this problem before death claims one of them? You know, Annie does know at least one telepath, and she seems to have some empathic abilities herself. It might be that all Tony needs is for Annie to tell him that she can sense that he loves her.
I'm hoping that Jones is proactive enough to say, at the end of this conversation, "I will, of course, not mention any of this conversation to anyone. Unless perhaps you wish for me to inform Antimony of what you have told me?" Then all it would take was a yes answer.
Thinking about why Jones has been going around doing this, I thought of a couple more possibilities besides "the Court asked her to check out Annie's mental state," "Jones took it upon herself," and "Tony asked her to do it." I'm adding to the list "Kat asked her to do it" and "Annie herself asked her to do it." I consider Kat to be an outside chance, because Kat hasn't had a lot of contact with Jones. But Annie's had a lot of contact with her, and she might have asked her whether she has any idea why her father was open around Forest Annie but is now closed to her. And Jones has been investigating that, rather than people's opinion of Annie's mental state. I notice that we never heard the initial question Jones asked in any of her interviews, except the one with Paz, although that one followed on from her classmates. It's possible that during these interviews Jones heard enough for her to make the comment she made to Antimony at the start of the chapter, but that wasn't what Annie had wondered about. Why would Jones not have said more? Because Annie wasn't alone, and because she wasn't done with her investigation yet. Anyway, that's a big unanswered question that remains.
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Post by ohthatone on Apr 30, 2021 13:14:53 GMT
Maybe the end of this chapter is too much to ask, but sometime in the (hopefully near) future I would love to see a bonus page of tony and annie having a counseling session with Lindsey. No words even necessary.
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Post by merry76 on Apr 30, 2021 13:21:41 GMT
Well this chapter is hard hitting. Especially knowing that people like this are possible in real life.
And it appears they cant treat it (or even diagnose it properly), despite having magic like tech and actual magic. Maybe they cant treat it because they have these abilities? Or maybe their experiments with the ether caused it all? I mean radioactivity was all fun and games until we found out that it exists and actually kills people. Thanks Marie Curie btw.
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 30, 2021 13:41:10 GMT
And it appears they cant treat it (or even diagnose it properly), despite having magic like tech and actual magic. Maybe they cant treat it because they have these abilities?
I fear the Court's attitude can be can be summarized with another Order of the Stick quote: "Do not confuse not caring with not knowing."
The Court does not give a single frag about its denizens' mental well-being, we have seen enough examples (or rather non-examples, with them apparently not doing anything). They didn't drag Tony back because they want Annie and him to finally live a healthy family life. They wanted him to a) rein Annie in, and b) research their blasted Omega Device. So of course they see no advantage in putting resources into trying to treat one of their top researchers' mental illness as long as it does not impede his work. |
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Post by lurkerbot on Apr 30, 2021 13:55:52 GMT
How tragic. I'm hoping this information gets conveyed to Antimony, perhaps through Jones as others have suggested. As empathetic as Antimony is (see: Jeanne), I imagine she would then try to break down Tony's mind cage, whatever its root cause. Even knowing the reason behind his demeanor would likely change her behavior towards him, which alone might help him. And at least she might take comfort in knowing that Tony's warm interactions with her Forest self reflect his true feelings for her as a whole even if he can no longer express them.
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Post by Alkazar on Apr 30, 2021 13:57:40 GMT
Maybe the end of this chapter is too much to ask, but sometime in the (hopefully near) future I would love to see a bonus page of tony and annie having a counseling session with Lindsey. No words even necessary. Oh, yeah, I'm with you there. Another thought: I like Annie's hair on this page. |
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Post by ctso74 on Apr 30, 2021 14:30:03 GMT
Please, Tony, the court must have therapists, surely? They've got to have some interesting pharmaceuticals. The Court only seems to want to do research, in regards to their "end goal". However, I can only imagine, that they accidentally discover interesting things along the way(like we've seen in the comic). The Court has got to have some good drugs. *Insert wild spec here* It's unfortunate that even sending missives (ex: via video) to her wouldn't work. Short of secretly recording his confessions and relaying them to Annie, there's no natural & immediate means of circumventing the mind cage. Well, if taken literally, Jones is a secret recording device. It would be interesting to see this used as a plot device! I'm imagining Jones putting on a one-woman play about all this. Robot and Shadow are stage hands. Kat doesn't see the subtext, and simply says, "What kind of name is Courtnie?" |
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