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Post by machiavelli33 on Apr 30, 2021 15:36:10 GMT
Imagine if Anthony had invested an iota of the effort he spent trying to bring Surma back, instead, into seeking help and treatment for this mind cage so he could function as a father. He still deserved thisThe things we do when we are convinced they are possible. The things we don't do, when we are convinced they are not. There's a part of me that believes that, between all the hierarchies and bureaucracies and gods and power that swim in the Gunnerkrigg universe, there is SOME way to bring Surma back without destroying Annie. Some colleague of Saslamel or the Njords or Loup's secret third cousin - a time clone of a Surma from a universe where she never had a daughter or some nonsense like that. I believe this because I've had a glimpse at the greater cosmology of the Gunnerkrigg universe, and we've seen what it's capable of. I'm sure Tony, with the amount of time he's spent at the court and his undoubtedly high security clearance, has glimpsed things of similar import. But "there is a way" is very different from "can I take that way" is very different from "SHOULD i take that way". However, I can see the latter two easily getting blown away in the winds of grief that follow loss, as Tony undoubtedly felt when he lost Surma. With regards to Tony's mindcage - one needs to consider that therapy and mental health treatment only lost its cultural stigmas in the last few decades. Tony however, has lived with his condition his whole life - its an obvious solution to us, and a solution that would UNDOUBTEDLY help him a LOT. But between the Court (where he's spent much if not all of his life) likely not caring to provide good therapy (or any therapy at all), and the stigmas associated with seeking counseling in the first place for people (particularly men) of Tony's generation, I think seeing such a solution that is obvious to you and me would be much more difficult for him. Eglamore has issues too...hell the Court seems a breeding ground for all TYPES of mental health issues, and I'm not seeing ANYONE get help for ANY of them. I think I can say with certainty however, that out of all people, Tony would be the last person to disagree with your last statement about Zimmy's punch. |
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 30, 2021 16:30:32 GMT
It is very hard to overstate how much it sucks to have an arc about how mental health problems mean you can’t help but be an emotionally abusive parent It's not that though? It's an arc about how Tony's mental health problem is making him a bad parent. Didn't Mark Twain warn about arguing with tumblr? They will drag you under and beat you with experience. Or was that one about alligators? Maybe the end of this chapter is too much to ask, but sometime in the (hopefully near) future I would love to see a bonus page of tony and annie having a counseling session with Lindsey. No words even necessary. Hmm. Lindsey did fix the problem of Kat pouting at Antimony without words. She is awesome like this. But then, Tony is an old untreated case. |
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Post by sebastian on Apr 30, 2021 16:35:22 GMT
Somebody in previous threads mentioned why he didn't try to write her.
Well, right after Surma's death Tony was all around the world and trying to hide from the court so writing was not really possible.
When he came back he was without his right hand. He had problem eating, let's figure writing.
Then he had Kat's 'magic' hand, but then Forest|Annie appeared and he was able to talk to her so it was not necessary anymore.
But now, after he had seen what he is losing, that could became an option. If Jones was to suggest something like "If you are unable to open up to her face to face. did you consider other form of communication? Like writing her a letter, for example" ...
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Post by mturtle7 on Apr 30, 2021 16:41:37 GMT
Imagine if Anthony had invested an iota of the effort he spent trying to bring Surma back, instead, into seeking help and treatment for this mind cage so he could function as a father. He still deserved thisHaha, yep. YEP. I am actually starting to think that this chapter is showing some genuinely positive Tony change, but even if that's true it sure as hell doesn't erase the man's previous penchant for wallowing in his own angst and going on self-indulgent spirit quests that completely abandon his daughter. The man is f*cked up in PLENTY of ways that his mental illness doesn't excuse...I do hope that he manages to find some treatment for it, though, and/or work around it, now that he's finally starting to face up to it and acknowledge it to someone he knows. I know multiple people whose parents were simply never able to do that, and dear God it sucks every time. Annie deserves better. |
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Post by Gemminie on Apr 30, 2021 18:16:39 GMT
Somebody in previous threads mentioned why he didn't try to write her. Well, right after Surma's death Tony was all around the world and trying to hide from the court so writing was not really possible. When he came back he was without his right hand. He had problem eating, let's figure writing. Then he had Kat's 'magic' hand, but then Forest|Annie appeared and he was able to talk to her so it was not necessary anymore. But now, after he had seen what he is losing, that could became an option. If Jones was to suggest something like "If you are unable to open up to her face to face. did you consider other form of communication? Like writing her a letter, for example" ... " It ... keeps my body distant. Like I can't control it." " Well, I better go. *tap* I think I ... something." What if Tony can still control his artificial hand even when his cage is locked down? Maybe he could write or type what he really feels to Annie. |
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Post by exterminatecake on Apr 30, 2021 18:36:55 GMT
I was worried when this chapter started going in this direction that people would begin taking this to be excusing Tony's actions...
I like this exploration of his psyche, honestly. He himself is admitting he treated(/treats?) Annie like crap, which is the first step to improving his behavior. It's refreshing to me to see this handled in a way where it isn't the child taking on the responsibility of finding out what's wrong with their parent and healing them, but the parent still needs healing and support from other sources. And this is coming from a certified Tony hater!
I hope Jones can offer some good advice, or at least assure him that this isn't some wild abnormal experience. His description of the "mind cage" really resonates with me as an autistic person with a serious social "freeze" response.
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Post by foxurus on Apr 30, 2021 21:36:26 GMT
Hmm. I've never felt like this all was supposed to explain him lashing out at Annie after his return.
Tony has been housing Annie for a while now. He cooks meals for her and does her homework with her. He gives her (stony-faced) compliments and advocates for her agency to others. He lets her help him with his arm. He works in the living room, where she can always see him if she wants to or ask for help. They're in close proximity to each other for large portions of every single day.
Tony hasn't been able to talk to her much, but if one were to look at their household without being able to hear anything, I think it'd look like a pretty normal house with a teenage girl and her single father.
He's emotionally distant now, but I don't think he's being abusive. And this conversation isn't about his behavior upon returning to the Court or his decision to leave. It's about the past year after Annie moved in with him, and about her childhood when they all lived together.
At most, it's saying that if someone has severe social anxiety they'll be distant from their child, but I really don't believe Tom's trying to say that everyone with social anxiety will have this problem. And while he's been abusive and negligent in the past, I don't think being distant should be considered abuse. (Which isn't saying that it's good.)
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Post by Bandolute on Apr 30, 2021 21:47:28 GMT
I was worried when this chapter started going in this direction that people would begin taking this to be excusing Tony's actions... I'm not convinced that ISN'T the direction the comic is taking, and feel like it's too early to make a judgement either way. It all depends on how it sticks the landing. Honestly, the creeping vibe I get is that Tom (or the story's morality as presented, or whatever) is saying we should Condone Tony, For His Pain is Great, There's Just No Helping It, He Had His Reasons, It's Up to Annie to Just Deal With It. I feel like we've spent 4x as much time exploring how fucking sad Tony about his bad parenting than we have, say, Antimony's feelings about the matter? Or if we do, it's all very indirect stuff that all wraps back around to dissecting Tony (Kat likes my dad?? > This is the story of how your parents fell in love). There's barely any room for Annie's feelings about this subject in this comic that is ostensibly about her. Her reaction to learning her dad almost killed her was one sentence.As much as I enjoy that Gunnerkrigg presents a lot of view points, it would be kind of welcome at this point if the story would clarify itself on this topic. Because for me, this wallowing in his misery seems way more like an attempt to drum up sympathy for him, rather than any kind of condemnation of his behavior. As you put it, an excuse: a get-out-of-being-a-dad free card. There's only so many times I can watch this guy weep in his office and not feel like he's being presented as someone I should unequivocally root for, because structurally, the story gives his pain so much more weight than Annie's. |
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Post by neonmoon on Apr 30, 2021 22:51:20 GMT
It is very hard to overstate how much it sucks to have an arc about how mental health problems mean you can’t help but be an emotionally abusive parent Yeah. Both parents neurodivergent, one seriously mentally ill, we started having talks about what that meant when I was about, idk, 10-11. The whole "this is a serious condition, but I can't tell my child, or have any of our friends tell them, or make some arrangements to give them additional support and context" is not great. I'm in the process of getting approved to be a monitor for a friend whose serious mental health issues meant she needs someone to accompany her to be with her kids, while she's fighting hard to be a good parent for them. This isn't just some impossible "well, guess my mind is broken and that's just the way it is" situation. It's been strange to be having that experience while reading the page where Idra presents "Well, is it bad that he abandoned her and went missing, or bad that he's here now? Which is it?" like it's some kind of gotcha. Sometimes, a parent does have untreated mental health issues that mean they're absent for years in a way that traumatizes their child, and when they come back, if they haven't addressed the problem, their presence in the child's life is going to be traumatizing too. It's hard, it's painful, but framing that as "well, was it bad that he wasn't here, or bad that he was here?" is just... not how this works |
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Post by Per on Apr 30, 2021 23:06:52 GMT
Is there just one way that "this" works?
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Post by lurkerbot on Apr 30, 2021 23:54:04 GMT
Imagine if Anthony had invested an iota of the effort he spent trying to bring Surma back, instead, into seeking help and treatment for this mind cage so he could function as a father. He still deserved this<snip> I think I can say with certainty however, that out of all people, Tony would be the last person to disagree with your last statement about Zimmy's punch. Agreed, as shown here, here, and here. |
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Post by wies on May 1, 2021 4:41:24 GMT
I was worried when this chapter started going in this direction that people would begin taking this to be excusing Tony's actions... I'm not convinced that ISN'T the direction the comic is taking, and feel like it's too early to make a judgement either way. It all depends on how it sticks the landing. Honestly, the creeping vibe I get is that Tom (or the story's morality as presented, or whatever) is saying we should Condone Tony, For His Pain is Great, There's Just No Helping It, He Had His Reasons, It's Up to Annie to Just Deal With It. I feel like we've spent 4x as much time exploring how fucking sad Tony about his bad parenting than we have, say, Antimony's feelings about the matter? Or if we do, it's all very indirect stuff that all wraps back around to dissecting Tony (Kat likes my dad?? > This is the story of how your parents fell in love). There's barely any room for Annie's feelings about this subject in this comic that is ostensibly about her. Her reaction to learning her dad almost killed her was one sentence.As much as I enjoy that Gunnerkrigg presents a lot of view points, it would be kind of welcome at this point if the story would clarify itself on this topic. Because for me, this wallowing in his misery seems way more like an attempt to drum up sympathy for him, rather than any kind of condemnation of his behavior. As you put it, an excuse: a get-out-of-being-a-dad free card. There's only so many times I can watch this guy weep in his office and not feel like he's being presented as someone I should unequivocally root for, because structurally, the story gives his pain so much more weight than Annie's. I feel nervous myself about the direction the comic is going in, but I think we had more exploring how Annie feels about Tony than the reverse. Pages spent about Tony's feelings: 14 pages in Annie and the Fire when he talked to Donald, one page in Meetings and Re-meetings where after he rebuked both Coyote and the Court, Coyote pointed out that his way of treatment isn't that safe to Annie either which caused a war in his mind, and the six pages in this current chapter and counting. Pages about Annie's feelings: Three pages in Fire Spike where she angrily defends Tony when Renard critizes his parenting and I kind of could count almost the whole of Microsat 5 because most of it is about Annie's shock and unease about the call of his father and subsequently her uncertainty whether he cares about her, but it is also not as directly addressed as the Tony pages. That is why the Annie pages are harder to count, but we do learn she knows how distant he is and also that she desires to be closer to him. Divine is also hard to count, but I think the one page where she fights Zimmy after she insulted Tony does count. Same with the Tree that is really more about Annie than Tony. There are few pages like this where she does express her feelings to someone else like Tony does now, but most of the chapter does show her bewilderment, shame and psychological regression (we do not yet learn she literally cut her anger off). The fire's anger in Annie and the Fire does count for me because that is Annie's anger at Tony epressed without restraint. These two pages are direct in showing the emotional distress Tony caused. The chapter also shows the Fire's reactions to Tony's story and that it remains angry at the end. Meetings and re-meetings has two pages where she confesses to Ysengrin she did cut off the anger she couldn't manage otherwhise and she tries to express how she feels about his treatment of her. Get it together is another complicated case. There is nothing direct, but it is also basically one whole chapter about Annie starting to recover from Tony's return by reconciling with Renard and having a good day with friends. There is a reason the chapter starts with her losing control of her anger and ends with her regaining it. But if that doesn't count for you, I understand. One page in Big day where she signals she wants to move on. Three pages in The Shadow Men where she shows doubt about the love of her parents, then one page at the end of Get Lost where she wonders why Tony specifically can't talk to her alone. One page in Katurday! where she tells Kat she is glad she could work with Tony, it also shows how eager she is to get validation of her father. The two pages in Dealing with Her where the two Annies talk about Tony's emotional distance and also that Courtnie argued with Tony to wear back her make-up. It is interesting. I kept counting stuff out because Annie does rarely express her feelings in the story, but they are shown. Like her sparkly joy when Tony asked if she wanted to live with him, her amazement at him opening up, the fact that she passed command of Renard to Kat and lied to Tony about it and that her first deed after having reconnected with the fire to demand of him to return Renard to her and so on, and this showed me that while Annie's feelings do get more weight, they tend to get a different kind of exploration. A subtler and more indirect kind that lies at times more in the realm of metaphor. There is also that she is the protagonist and by her position we are more inclined to sympathize with her and closer to her thoughts. But Tony gets two weighty and intense monologues about his feelings. And I think that is also kind of due to that. He is not the protagonist, so we can't peer in his mind unless he talks to someone else about it. We don't need Annie talking about her feelings to know how she is feeling. But that can lead to us feeling when Tony is almost directly to the reader explaining himself she doesn't get enough room for herself. But my bet is as soon this chapter concludes and when we are some chapters further we will feel Antimony's feelings remain largely center of this story. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on May 1, 2021 6:14:45 GMT
There's only so many times I can watch this guy weep in his office and not feel like he's being presented as someone I should unequivocally root for More or less my feelings, too. Tony is just so boring. And it doesn't help that our insights into him are nothing but pages of exposition. It's a wall of text with pictures attached. I just don't care about Tony. I don't even care enough to dislike him. And I certainly don't find him sympathetic, nor do I find his argument convincing. The last three pages read like excuses, and bad ones at that. Part of me wants Jones to say, "But enough about you. We're supposed to be talking about Antimony." |
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Post by red4bestgirl on May 1, 2021 7:54:12 GMT
I was worried when this chapter started going in this direction that people would begin taking this to be excusing Tony's actions... I'm not convinced that ISN'T the direction the comic is taking, and feel like it's too early to make a judgement either way. It all depends on how it sticks the landing. Honestly, the creeping vibe I get is that Tom (or the story's morality as presented, or whatever) is saying we should Condone Tony, For His Pain is Great, There's Just No Helping It, He Had His Reasons, It's Up to Annie to Just Deal With It. I feel like we've spent 4x as much time exploring how fucking sad Tony about his bad parenting than we have, say, Antimony's feelings about the matter? Or if we do, it's all very indirect stuff that all wraps back around to dissecting Tony (Kat likes my dad?? > This is the story of how your parents fell in love). There's barely any room for Annie's feelings about this subject in this comic that is ostensibly about her. Her reaction to learning her dad almost killed her was one sentence.As much as I enjoy that Gunnerkrigg presents a lot of view points, it would be kind of welcome at this point if the story would clarify itself on this topic. Because for me, this wallowing in his misery seems way more like an attempt to drum up sympathy for him, rather than any kind of condemnation of his behavior. As you put it, an excuse: a get-out-of-being-a-dad free card. There's only so many times I can watch this guy weep in his office and not feel like he's being presented as someone I should unequivocally root for, because structurally, the story gives his pain so much more weight than Annie's. At the risk of being accused again of Tumblr discourse or w/e, if that's NOT the direction this storyline is taking, then it's being gaslighty as Hell. I mean I would much rather it be a cheap trick to subvert the audience expectations than like... actually just excusing abuse under the guise of mental health advocacy, but the framing is overwhelmingly on Tony's side. As you say just the raw emphasis on Tony's pain from any narrative framing perspective is going to obliterate almost anything else. Showing us a character in pain and only obliquely hinting at the pain they cause others is going to be enough by itself to sway the sympathies of 90% of any audience, such is the power of perspective framing and our susceptibility to it. Even beyond that though like, I immediately had hackles on the back of my neck from the way this chapter opened. Yes a bunch of characters, including ones we are clearly meant to like, say Tony seems like a shit dad. But none of them express this with any gravitas. No one describes seeing Annie's pain. All of it is framed in very shallow terms, several times explicitly as hearsay and gossip. Meanwhile the closest thing to an objective, view-of-god character in the entire series, Jones, is suspiciously silent, her words indeed literally being offscreen as we build up to an intimate and explicit, dramatic cut scene that tells us: Tony is in pain. This is pretty much explicit framing to tell us that "Tony is a shit parent" is the Lie, widely believed but expressed without conviction, and "Tony is in pain" is the Truth. Expressed intimately and in close up, in painful and emotive detail. The problem with this of course is that "Tony is in Pain" doesn't actually contradict "Tony is a shit parent" in any way. In fact most shit parents, most abusive parents, are in pain. Their abuse is a manifestation of pain improperly healed. So what? Tony's pain is a sidenote here. He has no right and no entitlement to have his pain considered when he is directly harming his child with emotional abuse. And neglect is emotional abuse. I'm not even going to bother addressing anyone saying otherwise because they're factually wrong according to literally every expert on child abuse. I would prefer to be wrong and this just be a cheap way to trick the audience into sympathizing with Tony before Jones dresses him down, or better yet there being some organic explanation I don't see, but right now the simple and direct reading of the text as it exists is that the comic expects us to like and sympathize with Tony and see his pain as an understandable reason to inflict trauma and abuse on his daughter, to see him as a victim rather than the being with agency here. |
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Post by red4bestgirl on May 1, 2021 7:54:22 GMT
<snip> I think I can say with certainty however, that out of all people, Tony would be the last person to disagree with your last statement about Zimmy's punch. Agreed, as shown here, here, and here. ![]()  |
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Post by Georgie L on May 1, 2021 10:22:24 GMT
I am tired of folks being reductionist with Tony.
It creates further stigmatisation of mental health issues, saying "some people are just straight up bad" makes those who may recognise some of their own issues within them feel like there's no point in getting help.
That they were "born bad", so there's no point in trying to fix it.
It could even make them double-down on behaviours they were not proud of originally, being like "if you're bad, then be bad the best"
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Post by sebastian on May 1, 2021 10:37:04 GMT
Somebody in previous threads mentioned why he didn't try to write her. Well, right after Surma's death Tony was all around the world and trying to hide from the court so writing was not really possible. When he came back he was without his right hand. He had problem eating, let's figure writing. Then he had Kat's 'magic' hand, but then Forest|Annie appeared and he was able to talk to her so it was not necessary anymore. But now, after he had seen what he is losing, that could became an option. If Jones was to suggest something like "If you are unable to open up to her face to face. did you consider other form of communication? Like writing her a letter, for example" ... " It ... keeps my body distant. Like I can't control it." " Well, I better go. *tap* I think I ... something." What if Tony can still control his artificial hand even when his cage is locked down? Maybe he could write or type what he really feels to Annie. That is an interesting idea. They could learn sign language maybe? (Can you 'speak' sign language one handed?) It could even double as a extra layer of secrecy against Court's surveillance (unless they put camera's everywhere) |
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Post by frogspawned on May 1, 2021 11:35:18 GMT
...gaslighty as Hell...
...excusing abuse...
...a shit dad...
...shit parents...
...abusive parents...
...abuse...
...emotional abuse...
...neglect...
...emotional abuse...
...child abuse...
...trauma and abuse...
...I'm not even going to bother addressing anyone [who disagrees with me]... Oh, give it a rest. |
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Post by laaaa on May 1, 2021 11:52:16 GMT
Even beyond that though like, I immediately had hackles on the back of my neck from the way this chapter opened. Yes a bunch of characters, including ones we are clearly meant to like, say Tony seems like a shit dad. But none of them express this with any gravitas. No one describes seeing Annie's pain. All of it is framed in very shallow terms, several times explicitly as hearsay and gossip. Parley: "I don't know the guy, but just hearing about how he treats Annie pisses me off." Englamore: "Tony was missing for years before deciding to waltz back into the Court. I saw what that did to Antimony." These are not shallow, and they do focus on Antimony. The shallow ones come from her classmates which are, well, both younger and teenagers. I certainly remember my own classmates having strict, attentive teachers in low esteem because they were not pleasant to deal with (lots of homework, becoming angry when kids were frolicking in class etc. Maybe not the ideal teachers but definitely trying to do their jobs well). Its clear though that a lot of characters think Tony is Not A Good Parent and that things were better when he wasn't around. |
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Post by wies on May 1, 2021 14:05:24 GMT
The problem with this of course is that "Tony is in Pain" doesn't actually contradict "Tony is a shit parent" in any way. In fact most shit parents, most abusive parents, are in pain. Their abuse is a manifestation of pain improperly healed. So what? Tony's pain is a sidenote here. He has no right and no entitlement to have his pain considered when he is directly harming his child with emotional abuse. And neglect is emotional abuse. I'm not even going to bother addressing anyone saying otherwise because they're factually wrong according to literally every expert on child abuse. I would prefer to be wrong and this just be a cheap way to trick the audience into sympathizing with Tony before Jones dresses him down, or better yet there being some organic explanation I don't see, but right now the simple and direct reading of the text as it exists is that the comic expects us to like and sympathize with Tony and see his pain as an understandable reason to inflict trauma and abuse on his daughter, to see him as a victim rather than the being with agency here. Yeah, I understand your concern for perspective swaying the audience's sympathy for an abuser. Such is the power of storytelling. But for now, I think the comic is in agreement with you that Tony's pain doesn't contradict Tony's failures in parenting. Maybe the execution will end up botched and that should be critized, but what GKC is doing is showing how Anthony's improperly healed pain drove him (If it is not something etherical or something else) to cause pain to Antimony on his return. But I understand if you are skeptic to that, and maybe you are right, maybe the comic is trying to elict sympathy for Tony's actions so we won't him hold responsible for the things he did handle badly. But I don't think that will happen. Because the comic does see him as a being with agency. We have by now seen him repeatedly exercising his agency for Annie's benefit. There is the judo training in her youth, her sending to Court (it is not perfect, but it could be depending on his circumstances very well be the best possible place he could have sent her to. Still should have gone with her, of course), returning Renard at her behest, standing up for her decision to go to the Forest, demanding an explanation of Coyote how he could guarantee her safety, asking her on her own terms whether she preferred to live with him, conceding in an argument to let Courtnie wear her make-up again, and most importantly: fought against his mind cage and made an attempt to open up to Courtnie (yeah, it was meager and rapidly shut down, but it was an effort and improvement) Also, the bojack meme you posted is true. Just feeling bad is not enough (and frankly often counter-productive) But I feel Tony is trying better and is becoming better. An abuser, I think, is one that goes to lengths to curtail the child's independency and agency. Tony did most of that on his return (erasing make-up, placing in an apart room, wanting Renard back) but all of these things he has withdrawn by now. And he is learning from his mistake. When F!Annie returned, he once again felt his old pain searing of Surma's loss that had caused him to lash out to Annie, but this time he suppressed it and tried his best to be as supportive he could for F!Annie. (Something the merged Annie probably remembers) If he is an abuser, something I do not agree with, then one that is trying to stop being one. But again, maybe the comic will stall at that and Tony won't do effort anymore, and your concerns would be true. But for now I am giving the comic the benefit of doubt. |
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Post by silicondream on May 1, 2021 14:20:03 GMT
Perhaps coincidentally, I remembered tonight that I have visual aphantasia; my mind’s eye is almost entirely blind. (A lot of people with aphantasia periodically forget they have it, partly because it’s correlated with deficient autobiographical memory, and partly because it’s hard to remember that other people really can visualize things in their head.) It’s hardly the worst mental issue to have, but it is one for which *ahem* no cure yet exists. Even if one tries really hard! But Tony, what the hell. You wanted one person to talk to, and you're yourself saying one is what Annie is now. Your cage should make up its mind. Tony knows she’s one person physically, but that’s part of the problem! He couldn’t even handle Courtnie alone, and now she’s got Forest Annie superimposed on her too. Please, Tony, the court must have therapists, surely? Pretty sure they don’t have many. There’s Jones, kinda, and Lindsey is apparently a couples therapist when she’s not doing engineering stuff. So that’s one emotionally stunted, invulnerable geological feature in the form of a woman, and one enormous crustacean with a hyperdimensional brain incapable of experiencing certain key human emotions like loneliness, both doing therapy part-time. Not an ideal array of providers. (Also, Word of Tom is that Tony and Surma were acquainted with Bud and Lindsey before they left the Court, so presumably they couldn’t solve Tony’s issues either.) Other than that, Annie and half of her friends have gone through lots of trauma and some very obvious psychiatric crises, and nobody seems to be offering them any sort of therapy or medication or anything. The lack of treatment options for Zimmy and Gamma alone is horrifying. Maybe the end of this chapter is too much to ask, but sometime in the (hopefully near) future I would love to see a bonus page of tony and annie having a counseling session with Lindsey. No words even necessary. That would be fun, though I’m not entirely sure a couples therapist is ideal for a father and a daughter who’s her mother’s reincarnation. What the Court really needs is child/adolescent therapists, and family therapists, but if they approached child welfare in a halfway realistic fashion then most of the comic wouldn’t have happened. Hmm. Lindsey did fix the problem of Kat pouting at Antimony without words. She is awesome like this. That was nothing, though...there was no problem to fix. Kat broke down all her own feelings masterfully before she even left Antimony in the first scene, and after that she just needed time to let her anger cool. IMO, the whole point of the scene was that nobody needed to intervene with Kat, and all the attempts to do so just kept her annoyed for longer. Kat is one of the most well-adjusted people in the comic, and addressing her issues is like therapist kindergarten. Which is why she can handle being Annie’s best friend. If Tony is incapable of providing a non toxic home where Annie isn’t subject to neglect, then he has a moral duty to move her to a home where she won’t have to deal with that problem; that’s what actually loving her would entail. He did--he sent her to the Court. Annie hasn’t been obliged to live with him since Surma died; heck, she could have had her own house once they evacuated to the coast. But she didn’t want to. Why should Tony ban her from living with him? Imagine if Anthony had invested an iota of the effort he spent trying to bring Surma back, instead, into seeking help and treatment for this mind cage so he could function as a father. He still deserved thisIs it so hard to imagine that he did invest that effort, and it just didn’t work? Tony told Surma about it before they even started dating, and Surma’s a psychic who does therapy on ghosts for a living. He told Jones about it, and almost certainly Don and Anja as well. He met Bud and Lindsey. He traveled the world talking to gods and aliens and ascended masters and stretching his mind so far he class-changed from Medic to Warlock. He had near-death experiences. None of that seems to have put a crack in the mind cage. Considering that it’s been the chief frustration of Tony’s existence since before he met Surma, and the absurd determination he shows when he has a problem to solve-- and the fact that he’s a hyper-competent doctor-of-everything who’s currently using his own arm as a cybernetics research platform while consulting for multiple cross-species romantic couples--I think the obvious conclusion is that his disability simply cannot be cured with available techniques. If it could, he’d have done it by now. Which is not to say that the characters won’t figure out an amazing new technique for dealing with it, if the story goes that way. But I kind of doubt we’re about to learn that Tony’s just never heard of desensitization therapy or anxiolytics. How tragic. I'm hoping this information gets conveyed to Antimony, perhaps through Jones as others have suggested. As empathetic as Antimony is (see: Jeanne), I imagine she would then try to break down Tony's mind cage, whatever its root cause. Isn’t that already happening, though? Antimony learned about his disability and that she was a particularly strong trigger for it from “Get Lost,” and she learned how much guilt he has about her and Surma via “Annie and the Fire.” As of “Behind it All” The twin Annies were running secret mini-experiments on him to nail down why he treated them differently, and Courtnie was aware that Tony was trying his best to talk to her. It seems like Annie’s already come to terms with the issue, for the most part, and has her own ways of investigating it. Not that Annie doesn’t deserve more information about it, of course. But it’s a sensitive issue for her as well, and she’s not terribly comfortable discussing it with non-family. I feel like we've spent 4x as much time exploring how fucking sad Tony about his bad parenting than we have, say, Antimony's feelings about the matter? We’ve explored Antimony’s feelings about Tony plenty of times; they’re just not about his “bad parenting,” because she doesn’t think he’s a bad parent.. That story was mostly about Surma, I would say. But yes, it was extremely relevant to Annie’s own feelings, because she’d always been convinced that no one except her (and maybe her mom) could like her dad. Learning the contrary removed one of her least healthy justifications for spending time with him; she’s not obliged to be his emotional caregiver. At the risk of being accused again of Tumblr discourse or w/e, if that's NOT the direction this storyline is taking, then it's being gaslighty as Hell. That seems like a very odd take on gaslighting. This story is fiction; interpret it as you like, fanfic if you like, but the author doesn’t have to follow your sense of narrative logic. Honestly, this is completely counter to accepted principles of child welfare. Family-centered interventions are the standard, because a parent’s pain is reflected onto their child, and because only the most dysfunctional family relationships are actually worse for the child than removing them from the family. I’m a mandated reporter. Nothing that Tony has done except for the vanishing act would even move the needle on a child abuse report, and the institutional response to that would be to get him back into regular contact with Annie as soon as he could be located. It’s nothing to do with his welfare; Annie is a child with special needs, no other family and a history of delinquency, in severe legal jeopardy. She needs her father, and he’s not abusing her. |
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Post by maxptc on May 1, 2021 15:10:15 GMT
Even beyond that though like, I immediately had hackles on the back of my neck from the way this chapter opened. Yes a bunch of characters, including ones we are clearly meant to like, say Tony seems like a shit dad. But none of them express this with any gravitas. No one describes seeing Annie's pain. All of it is framed in very shallow terms, several times explicitly as hearsay and gossip. Gee, it almost like they haven't seen Annie in pain this whole time, maybe because she hasn't been? Almost like they think she's somewhat happy with how the situation with her dad is going for some reason, even if its not a perfect relationship and they are still upset with Tony over his first impression in comic. Almost like they don't have enough personal information or evidence about the situation to actually call him abusive without it seeming like just gossip or petty to an unbiased thing like Jones. Almost like most of there opinions about the relationship are based on that first meeting, which apparently hit them harder then it did Annie, so they can't ever move past it and thus react to his personality, his attempts at growth and any appearance of his in the comic with salt and accusations. Hang on, I think I mixed up background characters and certain fourm posters, my bad. |
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Post by lurkerbot on May 1, 2021 16:02:42 GMT
I’m a mandated reporter. Nothing that Tony has done except for the vanishing act would even move the needle on a child abuse report, and the institutional response to that would be to get him back into regular contact with Annie as soon as he could be located. It’s nothing to do with his welfare; Annie is a special-needs child with no other family and a history of delinquency, in severe legal jeopardy. She needs her father, and he’s not abusing her. Thanks for adding this perspective; I find it informative and helpful. |
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Post by Bandolute on May 1, 2021 16:41:39 GMT
Hell is watching otherwise thoughtful folks act snide and reductive toward actual human people, when those people express reasonable frustration with their fictional pet abuser.
But of course, throwing the word "abuser" out there so casually makes me a From Tumblr, which I infer from the disdain is some kind of subhuman whose opinions aren't worth caring about. Well, here's another worthless opinion, then: Antimony's desperation to be recognized by Tony, her defense of everything he does to her including abandoning her and almost killing her, her overwhelming joy when he throws her little scraps of compliment, and her blue screen reaction to his sudden friendliness followed by joy when it dawns that he's finally opening up to her... are EXACTLY the reactions an abused kid has to an abusive parent, and I know that because I have been that kid. Go ahead and tell me I'm projecting, people who have diagnosed Tony with specifically whatever neurodivergent presentation they personally posses.
Out of love, kids will defend parents who beat them. Let me state outright that I do not think that Tony is THAT BAD so that no one jumps down my throat. He is not. But he is doing harm, and Annie refuses to recognize it partially as a coping mechanism, partially because she loves him and is afraid to lose him. It's a complex impulse. We've seen her hungry expression when he validates her, weird and off-putting. We've seen her calmly excuse and then bury her anger at her abandonment, his mistake he made that almost killed her.
Saying Annie hasn't been in pain concerning Tony's actions is beyond asinine. It's just wrong.
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Post by lurkerbot on May 1, 2021 17:01:42 GMT
In light of the forum discussions over the past several comic pages, I have a couple of hypothetical questions. Suppose Tony's conversation with Jones continues with something like, "And so, because I'm stuck in this cursed mind cage, it would be best for Antimony if I place her with someone else who can give her the attention and affection she deserves. I'll grant full custody of Antimony to the Donlans and I'll get out of her life." Would this be a better overall situation for Antimony? How would she feel about this arrangement? Assume further that the Court then says, "Tony, you broke our deal, so we're expelling Antimony from the Court effective [immediately/upon graduation/other]." How would Antimony feel about that? |
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Post by maxptc on May 1, 2021 19:20:22 GMT
Hell is watching otherwise thoughtful folks act snide and reductive toward actual human people, when those people express reasonable frustration with their fictional pet abuser. But of course, throwing the word "abuser" out there so casually makes me a From Tumblr, which I infer from the disdain is some kind of subhuman whose opinions aren't worth caring about. Well, here's another worthless opinion, then: Antimony's desperation to be recognized by Tony, her defense of everything he does to her including abandoning her and almost killing her, her overwhelming joy when he throws her little scraps of compliment, and her blue screen reaction to his sudden friendliness followed by joy when it dawns that he's finally opening up to her... are EXACTLY the reactions an abused kid has to an abusive parent, and I know that because I have been that kid. Go ahead and tell me I'm projecting, people who have diagnosed Tony with specifically whatever neurodivergent presentation they personally posses. Out of love, kids will defend parents who beat them. Let me state outright that I do not think that Tony is THAT BAD so that no one jumps down my throat. He is not. But he is doing harm, and Annie refuses to recognize it partially as a coping mechanism, partially because she loves him and is afraid to lose him. It's a complex impulse. We've seen her hungry expression when he validates her, weird and off-putting. We've seen her calmly excuse and then bury her anger at her abandonment, his mistake he made that almost killed her. Saying Annie hasn't been in pain concerning Tony's actions is beyond asinine. It's just wrong. Of course she has been in pain. My parents caused me pain on multiple occasions and they aren't abusive. What he did when he came back was bullshit and unexcusable. Doesn't mean it's the constant or that Annie has to base her relationship with her Dad around that incident. Doesn't mean he has be causing her constant pain since then. Doesnt mean he's abusive or neglecting Annie, I don't think he is. I don't think she is in constant pain, hiding some deep suffering and excusing him because of trauma and despite constant mistreatment. I think there was a horrible incident and they are both trying to move forward the best they know how. If you read this as condoning abuse, or as an abusive relationship, I respectfully disagree. I don't read it that way, despite all that has happened. |
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Post by foxurus on May 1, 2021 21:14:40 GMT
...gaslighty as Hell...
...excusing abuse...
...a shit dad...
...shit parents...
...abusive parents...
...abuse...
...emotional abuse...
...neglect...
...emotional abuse...
...child abuse...
...trauma and abuse...
...I'm not even going to bother addressing anyone [who disagrees with me]... Oh, give it a rest. The comic has explored abuse a lot, through depictions of it and of its effects. Calling the comic gaslighty (aka, abusive) is a bit much, and the snide comment about people who disagree with them was...snide, but the rest is fine. Discussions that label characters' behaviors as abusive are relevant, just like any other discussion about characters. This is a forum to discuss the comic, after all. (As an aside, the comment about not bothering to address certain people feels like it was pointed at me? Which is a little upsetting because I don't think I've been particularly unreasonable re: Tony's abuse. I don't mind Red not addressing my post, but dismissively subtweeting about it feels unwarranted.) Hell is watching otherwise thoughtful folks act snide and reductive toward actual human people, when those people express reasonable frustration with their fictional pet abuser. But of course, throwing the word "abuser" out there so casually makes me a From Tumblr, which I infer from the disdain is some kind of subhuman whose opinions aren't worth caring about. "Arguing with tumblr" wasn't thrown out after the word "abusive" was used, it was thrown out after the user said the comic is being written to show that all people with mental illness will be abusive parents. Which is an uncharitable take of an actual human (Tom). Also, it's not about worthless opinions, it's about how arguing with a hostile brick wall who will use the worst interpretation of your words against you is an exercise in frustration. Whether that applies to Red is debatable, but regardless, their opinions -- and yours -- are worthwhile, and I care about them. -- A lot of people on both sides of this topic are commenting from experience, and all of those experiences are likely to be painful ones. Please, be as kind as you can muster. |
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Post by silicondream on May 1, 2021 22:44:54 GMT
Thanks for adding this perspective; I find it informative and helpful. No problem. I try not to invoke it lightly. Hell is watching otherwise thoughtful folks act snide and reductive toward actual human people, when those people express reasonable frustration with their fictional pet abuser. I’m sorry. You are human; so am I. So is Tom. Annie and Tony are fictional. It’s okay to love or be frustrated with them. Personally, I don’t believe in Hell. They are not, always, like this, and I know that because I have also been that kid. My abusivest and deadest parent was a Phoenix. My surviving parent is a Bat-Mum, and they do their best for me, and I do my best for them. Whilst we protect ourselves. You are worthy. The hammer lies dreaming. We're always projecting. I’m doing it right now: Phtumiu. It tastes awful! Without projection, who could have guessed that they & me & you are loved? No question, Annie has defended abusers. Several of them, in fact! One might say it’s her calling. (..stop calling her, Dogs!) He is doing no more harm than anyone else who loves and is loved. Sometimes a lot, sometimes a little. Off-putting to whom? It’s just her expression. Tony and Kat were surprised by it at first, but they’re okay now. Rather, we’ve seen her excuse and bury her anger at her mistakes. She can’t even see Tony, or his mistakes and successes, without putting in that immense, intense Carver effort. Really. She can barely see him. When did Annie ever come across Tony in Zimmanton? Death, and love, and her mother, consume her. Her father is a trifle in comparison. How would Antimony feel about that? These are great. Here are a couple of others: Is the Court right to separate Antimony from Ysengrin? Is the Court right to separate Annie from Loup? Is the Court right not to separate Zamma from Grimmy? |
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Post by todd on May 2, 2021 0:05:16 GMT
I think it might be best to just wait and see where the story goes, and trust that Tom knew what he was doing when he came up with the Antony arc.
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myzelf
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by myzelf on May 2, 2021 0:36:54 GMT
I empathize with Tony to some extent, as I too have difficulty communicating with others, but on the other hand, I've never tried to kill any of my relatives.
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