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Post by Refugee on Aug 30, 2015 4:02:50 GMT
Excellent post, here, mordekai. Much food for thought. If they expel Annie after graduation (I don't think they would wait until graduation if they planned to not let her graduate) she can just go to college somewhere else and keep developing her etheric skills on her own, visit the forest whenever she wishes to (Coyote would probably teach her how to reach it) and spend summer holidays with Kat. They are presuming that Annie would not find out about their plans. By letting Annie eavesdrop on her Father's confession, Donald is doing a powerfully subversive thing that could make him a high priority target of the Court as well. And, by the way, he's investing huge trust in Annie as well. You wanna be a grown-up, little girl? Here, take this leaky dynamite to help me take down the corrupt Powers that rule the Court. Sorry about the headache.Then there's trusting her love for her Father will see her through his revelations. Donald has great love for his friend Anthony, and his daughter's friend Annie, God bless him, and he is far more interested in mercy and healing than retributive justice. She's defied the Court anyway, in that eye-rolling adolescent way that gets so many of us in trouble when we're her age. I don't think she's understood until just how high the stakes are, personal and institutional. I don't think she believed the Court would or could do anything really bad to her or her friends. Now she knows better. === I've said it before, but it bears repeating: as broken as Anthony is, Annie's irresponsible actions have given the Court leverage over him, and her. Had she not cheated, and been so defiant; had she not so plainly cast her lot with the Forest and Coyote over the Court, the Court would not now have her Father, and herself, on so tight a leash, and so cruel a choke collar. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Aug 30, 2015 5:33:53 GMT
I've said it before, but it bears repeating: as broken as Anthony is, Annie's irresponsible actions have given the Court leverage over him, and her. Had she not cheated, and been so defiant; had she not so plainly cast her lot with the Forest and Coyote over the Court, the Court would not now have her Father, and herself, on so tight a leash, and so cruel a choke collar. Dude, give it a rest. Aside from the fact that you're ignoring how much the Court already had Tony under its thumb, there's plenty of blame to be passed around here and we can play "if only" games ad nauseum. If only Tony hadn't abandoned his daughter and left her to fend for herself. If only Surma had come clean about her role in this mess. If only Tony and Surma had not chosen to have a child, knowing full well what was going to happen. If if if... You are sounding like a broken record, trying to lay this all at Annie's feet. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 30, 2015 6:24:56 GMT
In any case, last panel looks like a mike-drop. Which means it's almost time for Donald's turn. Assuming Renard doesn't cut in line.
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Post by speedwell on Aug 30, 2015 6:56:47 GMT
Just some thoughts...
What interest would Coyote really have in Antimony if she's been cast off by the Court? Yeah, he might... yeah, he might not... even want her around if she's become no further use, and possibly a liability. She's been a child, taken care of by everyone, but she's on the point of becoming a woman. Her ability to be a medium has a flip side, and that is that she isn't strongly bound to anywhere; she can't say she really fits in anywhere. She's no Jones, though, able to come and go and live pretty much as she pleases. No, you know who I would expect to step in if Donald is prevented from helping, Anthony fails at fatherhood, and Antimony retreats to the Forest? Jones, potentially, but mostly Ysengrin, for long enough for Annie to find her feet and live as an elemental. For all I love Kamlen and his tribe, I don't expect them to have a meaningful place for her that wouldn't endanger themselves.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 30, 2015 8:07:02 GMT
What interest would Coyote really have in Antimony if she's been cast off by the Court? Yeah, he might... yeah, he might not... even want her around if she's become no further use, and possibly a liability. She's been a child, taken care of by everyone, but she's on the point of becoming a woman. Bit of speculation on that: Antimony has a strong story, if Coyote doesn't exist (there never was a real coyote under the layers of myth in the first place) then he needs to keep placing himself into others' stories or be forgotten. Or keep eating. Interesting stories are useful/delicious stories for that purpose. Antimony transitioning to womanhood in an unfamiliar environment (be it Court or Wood) is all good and in the end he may not give a rat's rear end what happens to her as long as it's interesting except that Coyote has now been removed from the narrative. And is not happy. |
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Post by autumn on Aug 30, 2015 9:45:02 GMT
Well, here we are, five months later from my original post voicing my discomfort with the direction GK was taking - we finally have the resolution to the issue of parental abuse. It is a very concerning resolution, writing-wise.
Positing a very clear case of child abuse, only to show that later he was an actually misunderstood, loving guy all along, is belittling what people go through with child abuse and is dangerous in that it gave the kind of people who enable child abuse their gratification for defending Anthony. Although it's now greatly disputed whether or not his actions count as abuse, with the information we had a few months ago the majority opinion of the forum was that it was certainly an abusive situation. There were, of course, a few people who disagreed and argued vehemently that it wasn't - and those kinds of people are the very kind who enable child abusers, by turning a blind eye to what they do and justifying everything at the expense of the person being abused. And that exact kind of person now gets to believe that they were in the right all along, because now Tony is being presented as being forced into what he did and beyond that just responding poorly to grief because he was so full of love. That mentality is so bad to provide reinforcement to, and I'm disappointed that Tom did.
Is it a strong connection to make that people defending a comic character would defend someone in real life in the same situation? It could be, I guess. But I went through it firsthand, and when you reach out to extended family and friends for help, this is exactly the kind of response you get. "Oh, he's a great guy, he loves you and would never do something to intentionally hurt you" or "He's doing it for your own good" or "He's going through a tough time, cut him some slack. He still loves you" or my favorite "you're a brat, he's just straightening you out". Excuse after excuse for the actions they can see, disbelief and being treated as a liar for what goes on behind closed doors. Nobody helps, and you're left to suffer for year after year after year. I don't want to see that kind of behaviour encouraged in any way, even if it's just a story in a comic. The idea that it could reinforce someone's belief that they're in the right by defending someone who by all appearances is a child abuser is terrifying to me.
Hopefully, at least, the story can now move on to something else so I can enjoy reading it again. It looks like this chapter should be wrapped up soon, and the Court is being set up as a kind of antagonist, so there's plenty of potential for a different storyline. I will be grateful to once again be able to read a GK storyline that doesn't hit home in a painful way.
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arzeik
Junior Member
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Post by arzeik on Aug 30, 2015 11:05:17 GMT
Well, here we are, five months later from my original post voicing my discomfort with the direction GK was taking - we finally have the resolution to the issue of parental abuse. It is a very concerning resolution, writing-wise. Positing a very clear case of child abuse, only to show that later he was an actually misunderstood, loving guy all along, is belittling what people go through with child abuse and is dangerous in that it gave the kind of people who enable child abuse their gratification for defending Anthony. Although it's now greatly disputed whether or not his actions count as abuse, with the information we had a few months ago the majority opinion of the forum was that it was certainly an abusive situation. There were, of course, a few people who disagreed and argued vehemently that it wasn't - and those kinds of people are the very kind who enable child abusers, by turning a blind eye to what they do and justifying everything at the expense of the person being abused. And that exact kind of person now gets to believe that they were in the right all along, because now Tony is being presented as being forced into what he did and beyond that just responding poorly to grief because he was so full of love. That mentality is so bad to provide reinforcement to, and I'm disappointed that Tom did. Is it a strong connection to make that people defending a comic character would defend someone in real life in the same situation? It could be, I guess. But I went through it firsthand, and when you reach out to extended family and friends for help, this is exactly the kind of response you get. "Oh, he's a great guy, he loves you and would never do something to intentionally hurt you" or "He's doing it for your own good" or "He's going through a tough time, cut him some slack. He still loves you" or my favorite "you're a brat, he's just straightening you out". Excuse after excuse for the actions they can see, disbelief and being treated as a liar for what goes on behind closed doors. Nobody helps, and you're left to suffer for year after year after year. I don't want to see that kind of behaviour encouraged in any way, even if it's just a story in a comic. The idea that it could reinforce someone's belief that they're in the right by defending someone who by all appearances is a child abuser is terrifying to me. Hopefully, at least, the story can now move on to something else so I can enjoy reading it again. It looks like this chapter should be wrapped up soon, and the Court is being set up as a kind of antagonist, so there's plenty of potential for a different storyline. I will be grateful to once again be able to read a GK storyline that doesn't hit home in a painful way. Hi, autumn. First of all, I would like to thank you for being brave and sharing with us your experience. Child abuse is a despicable thing and nobody should go through what you and, sadly, an impotant number of people have gone through. In my opinion, however, Tom shouldn't be to blame for the misinterpretations some people could get from his story. I don't think the resolution he's giving to us in the last few pages justifies what Tony did. It explains some things and shows his feelings to the audience. But if someone wants to come to the conclussion that leaving her daughter alone when she had just lost her mother, returning to her life without explaining a thing or even saying hello, or having the first words told to her in years be full of disdain and disgust were perfectly normal things to do... Well, not even the very character was happy with what he did and the way he did it. Furthermore, it's up to Annie wether he's worthy of forgiveness or not. To sum up, I don't think this is a victory for people who justify or enable child abuse. And were those people to think this story provides support to their way of thinking, I wouldn't say it would be Tom's fault, but theirs. |
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Post by hellohello on Aug 30, 2015 11:48:06 GMT
Well, here we are, five months later from my original post voicing my discomfort with the direction GK was taking - we finally have the resolution to the issue of parental abuse. It is a very concerning resolution, writing-wise. Positing a very clear case of child abuse, only to show that later he was an actually misunderstood, loving guy all along... I don't believe this plot line is resolved yet - Tony's just finished talking about his side of things (maybe), but I'd think Donny will have something to say, hopefully Annie will as well, maybe even Renard. Just because Tom has showed us Tony's side of things doesn't mean we have to think Tony did nothing wrong. I personally expect Donny to figuratively slap him upside the head and yell the British equivalent of "YOU IDJIT! GO APOLOGISE TO YOUR DAUGHTER AND TELL HER YOU LOVE HER." I'm still up in the air about Tony - if he is chastised, how he reacts to that will likely decide what I think of him. |
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 30, 2015 11:57:23 GMT
Ohforf... shambling rambling ones have respawned again.  In any case, last panel looks like a mike-drop. Which means it's almost time for Donald's turn. Assuming Renard doesn't cut in line. Yup. Except that Renard can figure out that it's Donald's turn, and something interesting can be heard. And he at very least dislikes him less than Anthony and James. He isn't going to hug Anthony, and probably doesn't want to kick the dude when he's down, but either way, would see Annie's here. Thus if Renard will chime in, it's to goad some information out of these two. |
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Ombre
New Member
Posts: 21
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Post by Ombre on Aug 30, 2015 12:07:08 GMT
Well, here we are, five months later from my original post voicing my discomfort with the direction GK was taking - we finally have the resolution to the issue of parental abuse. It is a very concerning resolution, writing-wise. I read you well and I respect your opinion. But, in mine, no, we haven't any resolution for now. Even the end of this chapter won't resolve the ambiguity that was progressively built around the character of Annie's dad. If we want to judge, we should wait until the end of the whole story - which means still quite a long time to go or at least several chapters after this one. Seeing the turn of events and revelations in this chapter, I see Annie's dad as more nuanced than excused. There is a strong parallel with Ysengrin here. Both are being insensible, verbally and sometimes physically violent. Both, as it turns out, also have mental health issues, both because they have been or are being manipulated in some way or another. These last revelations of course raise the problem of their share of responsability in their abusive acts (for abusive they do are in my opinion), insofar as they are or were on the brink of madness : Ysengrin is driven to violence then deprived by Coyote of the memories of his faults that he would need to improve his behaviour ; Tony is obsessed by the physical likeness of Surma and Annie and he says it nearly caused him to lose his mind when he saw her again, older and more "woman", after all these years (the make-up removing was very probably a way to reduce their resemblance in his eyes, but even if we now can explain why he did it, it was still abusive !). That means the powers who manipulate them (Coyote as regards Ysengrin, the unknown etheric entities and in part the Court as regards Annie's dad) are even more perverse and guilty than them, or that they are the initial guilty ones here - but not the only ones. Also, we must not forget that these explanations about Annie's dad's travels only explain relatively recent events. That does not explain anything about how he acted before his disappearance, be it with his friends at the Court, with Surma or with little Annie. He was concerned only with himself, after all. So, once more, these revelations bring as many questions as answers. How much has this trip really changed his personality ? Will he really care more ? Isn't he showing off in some measure ? (After all, perverse people are quite good at spectacular displays of rhetorical guilt, and then they just keep being perverse and abusive.) The only conclusion that I would allow myself to drive from what we read in this chapter so far is that Annie's dad is a more complex character than what we knew until now. But I don't understand these revelations as de-responsabilizing (does this verb exist ?) him completely. One of the reasons I love GC is because there are no 100% good or 100% evil characters. Nobody is completely innocent or guilty here. Even Annie has her darker sides and can be quite manipulative or truly insensible (Fire being out or not). So, at least for now, I trust Tom for showing something subtler than just a "In fact he's good and thus innocent and they all love each other and every traumatism is forgotten" conclusion. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 30, 2015 14:08:45 GMT
In any case, last panel looks like a mike-drop. Which means it's almost time for Donald's turn. Assuming Renard doesn't cut in line. Yup. Except that Renard can figure out that it's Donald's turn, and something interesting can be heard. And he at very least dislikes him less than Anthony and James. He isn't going to hug Anthony, and probably doesn't want to kick the dude when he's down, but either way, would see Annie's here. Thus if Renard will chime in, it's to goad some information out of these two. Not sure about that. Renard was there with Antimony through a lot of the Anthony-absence; he's also been stuck in Anthony's house for a while now. Add in the Surma stuff and he just might feel like kicking Anthony while he's down, at least verbally... 'specially if he can see that Antimony's started "cutting herself" from the stress and Anthony hadn't noticed. |
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Post by aline on Aug 30, 2015 16:55:57 GMT
I've said it before, but it bears repeating: as broken as Anthony is, Annie's irresponsible actions have given the Court leverage over him, and her. Had she not cheated, and been so defiant; had she not so plainly cast her lot with the Forest and Coyote over the Court, the Court would not now have her Father, and herself, on so tight a leash, and so cruel a choke collar. And he would never have come back, instead getting his wish of dying somewhere in a desert. She'd never even have learned why he abandoned her and whether he was still alive. I'm sure once she realizes that,she'll be *speechless* with regret. |
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Post by warrl on Aug 30, 2015 21:28:42 GMT
So uh, why did he tell at Annie to take off her makeup then? So she would have less of a resemblance to Surma? Regretful or not, Tony still acted like a colossal dick when he first showed up to teach Annie's class. And before. There is no way in heck that the news she was being held back a year should have been delayed until she was in class... and no way in heck he should have refrained from spending time with her BEFORE passing on that news. Great, now even Tony thinks Tony is an arsehole. Well, even he can't always be wrong. Maybe he and Boxbot can team up. wub wub Tony. Not impressed. Also, so she gets expelled by the court pre-graduation. So... what. No more being manipulated by the Court like her father (and mother?) before her? Yes... what a tragedy. >_> Just how stupid do you think the Court is? Not evil, not manipulative (those are legitimate questions, but not the one I'm asking)... STUPID. They already can't afford to expel Annie. Give her a few more years of studying and investigating, learning the Court's secrets... then destroy any trust, friendship, or allegiance she may feel for the Court itself, make her seriously angry at the Court and its leadership, and toss her into Coyote's paws? Yeah... no. I don't think they are THAT stupid. This isn't the unpredictable response of a trickster god. That such an action would have a bad outcome is nearly as certain and expected as if they were to release a brick directly above their own toes. Tony, on the other hand, was in bad enough mental condition that they could reasonably hope and expect he wouldn't see through the bluff. And now he's emotionally invested in it NOT being a bluff, which again makes it hard for him to see through it. |
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Post by todd on Aug 31, 2015 0:16:31 GMT
Just how stupid do you think the Court is? Not evil, not manipulative (those are legitimate questions, but not the one I'm asking)... STUPID. They already can't afford to expel Annie. Give her a few more years of studying and investigating, learning the Court's secrets... then destroy any trust, friendship, or allegiance she may feel for the Court itself, make her seriously angry at the Court and its leadership, and toss her into Coyote's paws? Yeah... no. I don't think they are THAT stupid. This isn't the unpredictable response of a trickster god. That such an action would have a bad outcome is nearly as certain and expected as if they were to release a brick directly above their own toes. Tony, on the other hand, was in bad enough mental condition that they could reasonably hope and expect he wouldn't see through the bluff. And now he's emotionally invested in it NOT being a bluff, which again makes it hard for him to see through it. My thoughts as well - as I've commented above. Not to mention that I question why, if the Court really wanted to move against Annie, they'd wait until she graduated. Who knows what she'd do in those few years? If they see her as a threat, the time to act is now, not a few years away. In fact, I'd say that what the Court *has* done - and manipulated Anthony into doing for it - has (for the moment) produced better results for them - an Annie not only under enough restrictions that she can't do that much more meddling and prying, but who also has exiled the part of herself that impels her to do all that meddling and prying. Thanks to her removing her fire elemental side, she's become passive enough that I doubt the Court will need to fear her. |
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 31, 2015 2:01:56 GMT
Not sure about that. Renard was there with Antimony through a lot of the Anthony-absence; he's also been stuck in Anthony's house for a while now. Add in the Surma stuff and he just might feel like kicking Anthony while he's down, at least verbally... 'specially if he can see that Antimony's started "cutting herself" from the stress and Anthony hadn't noticed. I'm not saying he isn't annoyed by Tony's stupidity... just probably will decide to be above spitting into a sea. Of course, he still may try to jump up and say "Summary: Anthony here tries idiotically dangerous experiments when he can simply ask someone who knows better, does his best to separate his daughter from everyone and everything that protects her as a response to some pathetic bluff of a threat and he treats her like crap as a way of apology... Donny boy, at this point we can safely conclude that your pal is plainly bugbug insane". But then he will see Annie and is likely to re-prioritize toward giving her a better hint as to what's going on - or a piece of his mind... Thanks to her removing her fire elemental side, she's become passive enough that I doubt the Court will need to fear her. ...like noting it was exactly the desired result, yes. Also, who gets to figure out that since her ability to do so was not obvious, and her temper very much is, it's quite possible that Jonathan's initial idea was the plagiarized "trap for Renard" - have Tony degrade Annie until she flips out and cooks him, then have her caged? Renard or Annie? Any bets? |
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Post by mordekai on Aug 31, 2015 13:35:08 GMT
Why should the Court care about Annie when they are next to a forest full of etheric creatures, many of who were once members of the Court who knew more about it than she does? Once she's out of the Court killing her is more a nuisance than it's worth. In the interest of completeness, I think it's worth pointing out that Annie has been digging dangerously deeply into the Court's shady actions, past and present - Jeanne, talking to Coyote, manipulations of Renard, learning about the ether stations, etc. I doubt that many students know as much as she does, and as far as we know, they've all been "expelled" too. She is a dangerous loose cannon from the Court's perspective, especially since she appears to be aligning herself with Coyote and the Forest, and she seems relatively etherically powerful compared to other abilities we've seen. Some of the people who became animals were adult members of the Court. Alistair's parents, for example. |
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Post by stclair on Sept 2, 2015 20:57:55 GMT
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If they expel Annie after graduation (I don't think they would wait until graduation if they planned to not let her graduate) she can just go to college somewhere else and keep developing her etheric skills on her own, visit the forest whenever she wishes to (Coyote would probably teach her how to reach it) and spend summer holidays with Kat. 
