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Post by pendell on Aug 28, 2015 13:10:46 GMT
Annnnd...I'm liking Tony better now, tbh. Still doesn't excuse his absence. Or the insensitive way he did all this. But I do feel like we understand more now. Though the revelations have been overly sudden. But we've debated this before. I propose a new question: what exactly is he regretting here? Leaving in the first place? The bone lasers? His harsh words a couple chapters ago? All of the above, or some combination? My read is that the bone lasers are the things he most greatly regrets. I don't think he regrets leaving to attempt to save Surma's life. I don't think he regrets searching and searching to bring back the woman he loved -- but I think he DOES regret allowing himself to be deceived, I think he DOES regret that his daughter, not having him as a role model, is cheating, and I think he most of all regrets that he nearly KILLED his own daughter. Harsh words? I could be mis-reading, but I get the impression Tony is old school. Sticks and stones may break my bones but if you're hurt by words, grow up. I don't think people have been especially gentle in their speech to him and he's not especially gentle back. Especially when you're trying to save your daughter from expulsion and you have to impress on her the level of fertilizer she's in. ... Even so, I'm hoping he can start building an actual RELATIONSHIP with her and be less cold and distant. He is more understandable now and definitely our sympathy buttons are being pushed -- but we still need him to learn to be a father who provides emotional support and will BE THERE for his daughter. |
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Post by arf on Aug 28, 2015 13:12:38 GMT
Renard isn't on his desk. Did Anthony stuff him in a drawer, or has he been passed off to someone else? The extra page will have Tony sleeping it off, clutching his daughter's toy wolfie for comfort. The last panel of that page will feature wolfie emitting a small *sigh!* thought bubble. |
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 28, 2015 13:36:29 GMT
Renard isn't on his desk. Did Anthony stuff him in a drawer, or has he been passed off to someone else? The extra page will have Tony sleeping it off, clutching his daughter's toy wolfie for comfort. The last panel of that page will feature wolfie emitting a small *sigh!* thought bubble. PUPPY RENARD!!! |
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 28, 2015 13:40:45 GMT
Tony and Renard join forces in a fantastic "buddy cop" type comic to take down the Court from the inside. Seeing how Kat took most of the safeties off Rey (including the important one) that "team-up" idea may turn out rather interestingly. Most of the time, I see them as the ultimate in Odd Couple roommates. "T's from the Court! R's from the Forest! T's a mininalist neatnik! R likes letting it all hang out! Both of them loved Surma! Both of them love Antimony!" Let the hijinks ensue! |
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Post by zeidoktor on Aug 28, 2015 13:50:33 GMT
Seeing how Kat took most of the safeties off Rey (including the important one) that "team-up" idea may turn out rather interestingly. Most of the time, I see them as the ultimate in Odd Couple roommates. "T's from the Court! R's from the Forest! T's a mininalist neatnik! R likes letting it all hang out! Both of them loved Surma! Both of them love Antimony!" Let the hijinks ensue! I read that in an excessively goofy TV announcer voice. |
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Post by pxc on Aug 28, 2015 13:53:45 GMT
Remember when we were speculating that the rays in this page were evil bone lasers sent by Tony to control his daughter? Good times. Let's hold off on any speculations about Tony's character at least a wee bit longer, folks. Haha. Guilty as charged. I'll probably keep speculating though  |
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Post by vernes on Aug 28, 2015 14:16:28 GMT
Now we have to... wait!  Oh god! *chews on website* |
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Post by grahamf on Aug 28, 2015 14:23:34 GMT
Astral Projection Hugging Time!
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Post by fish on Aug 28, 2015 14:32:36 GMT
Oh no! Is this-- is this the first time Tom had to explain his commentary under the page? I thought it was rather obvious he meant the parallel to Annie. I hope there was no angry mail involved.  |
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dd500
New Member
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Post by dd500 on Aug 28, 2015 14:53:11 GMT
I actually like Tony as a character a lot now. His story is beautifully tragic, and you can feel the shame and regret he feels every time he laughs at his own foolishness.
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Aug 28, 2015 14:53:45 GMT
Everyone in this discussion page today is being so...polite and courteous. Acting all...civilized.
Ugh. *shudder*
That's all wrong! No, no no no!!
Go on, quarrel for Me! Entertain Me with your pathos!! Feed Me with your anger!!!
Let the hate flow through you.
How dare you act like reasonable human beings with Me around?!?
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Post by speedwell on Aug 28, 2015 14:55:25 GMT
Everyone in this discussion page today is being so...polite and courteous. Acting all...civilized. Ugh. *shudder* That's all wrong! No, no no no!! Go on, quarrel for Me! Entertain Me with your pathos!! Feed Me with your anger!!! Let the hate flow through you. How dare you act like reasonable human beings with Me around?!? *spankies* |
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Aug 28, 2015 15:04:30 GMT
Ay, noooooo!! Have mercy, I beg of you!!!The Court's secret superweapon...the dreaded Spankies 2000... it's too powerful...I am vanquished! Even with My omnipotent might, I cannot even endure it!
*totally dignified cowering* |
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 28, 2015 15:09:45 GMT
The extra page will have Tony sleeping it off, clutching his daughter's toy wolfie for comfort. The last panel of that page will feature wolfie emitting a small *sigh!* thought bubble. Why would Renard want to? With the makeup Annie may just look too much like her mother, which Anothony may just not be able to handle yet. That's purely speculative, of course, but I still mostly see him as a tortured soul that's desperately trying to come to terms with the death of his loved one. Called it! *eats a cookie*  I'm afraid you have to stand in line after Garbage: That, with the hope he has a reason for getting her to the restroom other than the makeup remind him too much of surma, i still have some hope for the old bugger that is Tony. Of course, that thread has at least one post per page to this effect (it's fairly obvious), but this was first. I also have reminded that being treated like nothing more than a carbon copy of Surma is not something Annie is used to take well. for the same reason, even if she does see his problem and does not object to him making it her problem, it's still going to annoy Annie beyond speech... |
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 28, 2015 15:19:03 GMT
Called it! *eats a cookie* I'm afraid you have to stand in line after Garbage: That, with the hope he has a reason for getting her to the restroom other than the makeup remind him too much of surma, i still have some hope for the old bugger that is Tony. Of course, that thread has at least one post per page to this effect (it's fairly obvious), but this was first. Nah, eightyfour's was more specific. And we don't entirely know that that is the reason Tony sent her to the restroom, even though this seems the most likely assumption. But we've seen what our assumptions have reaped us these last few chapters. |
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Post by l33tninja on Aug 28, 2015 15:42:32 GMT
Annnnd...I'm liking Tony better now, tbh. Still doesn't excuse his absence. Or the insensitive way he did all this. But I do feel like we understand more now. Though the revelations have been overly sudden. But we've debated this before. I propose a new question: what exactly is he regretting here? Leaving in the first place? The bone lasers? His harsh words a couple chapters ago? All of the above, or some combination? I think all of it; but mostly the memory of Annie's face when he brought the hammer down on her at his return.
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Post by darklingthrush on Aug 28, 2015 15:43:18 GMT
Eh. This is reminiscent of a guy who beats his wife or kids and then gets drunk and sobs about how he's so sorry and he'll never do it again.
I do appreciate the clarification, but regret never changes or ameliorates past actions.
I don't hate Tony, he's just still got a lot of work to do to make up what he's done.
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Post by l33tninja on Aug 28, 2015 15:44:13 GMT
Incredibly, despite all the rhetoric to the contrary, Tony is revealed at last to be: a human. And he has made mistakes, which he regrets.
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 28, 2015 15:49:14 GMT
I don't hate Tony, he's just still got a lot of work to do to make up what he's done. Yeah, that's about my position. Incredibly, despite all the rhetoric to the contrary, Tony is revealed at last to be: a human. I don't think anyone doubted this. Though he could be a wisp... On the forum, at least, nearly everyone agreed that he would have reasons, but some people thought they wouldn't be good enough. And then people started shouting, especially around the definition of "abuse", and everything went to hell. I think that whether this reason is sufficient is still in the air (and depends on his future actions), but Tony being heartless is now a fiction - but despite what many are saying now, after the first page or two, few people held such a 1D opinion of him. Claiming that everyone here thought so is misrepresenting the past *shrug* |
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Post by l33tninja on Aug 28, 2015 16:08:05 GMT
I don't hate Tony, he's just still got a lot of work to do to make up what he's done. Yeah, that's about my position. Incredibly, despite all the rhetoric to the contrary, Tony is revealed at last to be: a human. I don't think anyone doubted this. Though he could be a wisp... On the forum, at least, nearly everyone agreed that he would have reasons, but some people thought they wouldn't be good enough. And then people started shouting, especially around the definition of "abuse", and everything went to hell. I think that whether this reason is sufficient is still in the air (and depends on his future actions), but Tony being heartless is now a fiction - but despite what many are saying now, after the first page or two, few people held such a 1D opinion of him. Claiming that everyone here thought so is misrepresenting the past *shrug* Yes, I understand, and I am purposely going a little more to the opposite side because of that, just as a counterpoint to some of the overreaction on the other side of the spectrum. I really believe that there is too much raw, quick judgment in the world anyway. I see comment boards on news articles where people are condemning others to life in prison, execution, and sometimes disgusting other punishments with no evidence, no trial, no information except a 300-word blurb from a newspaper. This disturbs me deeply. GC is obviously fiction, Tony is not real, and I get that. But the mentality of hate bothers me, so I want to join in the discussion but with counterweight to this kind of thinking. I would rather wait to know more before I pass judgment.
And when I say he is human, I'm talking about his characteristics and behavior. There are a bunch of characters in this (and many other) comics that are not "human" biologically, but they are still humanly portrayed. I just meant he has flaws, feelings, a character, and so on. And I don't think everyone was giving him the chance to be "human".
The comparisons to abuse and so on are way off base in my opinion. Domestic violence, abuse, beating children or a spouse, emotional abuse, and sexual abuse are issues that need to be addressed in society. They are serious and distressing. They make me sad when I read or hear about them. Those situations make me frustrated when I see them unresolved. Those behaviors are just unacceptable; we should not accept them. That discussion is not for this forum, probably. However, Tony did none of those things (emotional abuse is different from behavior that affects someone's emotions negatively). He did discipline his child, and it was called for - Annie was cheating. He did hold her back to a previous form, which was also called for. He was not very nice about it, which was a mistake - and as a father, probably a bigger one than he has yet realized - and he has not been very "fatherly", which is unfortunate and also a mistake. But, he did not abuse Annie.
There are people in the world that are not very good at being parents. My position is that if they are trying, which Tony is (even while he was suffering through some pretty difficult physical and emotional situations - self-imposed, maybe, but he was still suffering), then they shouldn't be despised and hated for it. They need some help, maybe. And they need to learn what they could do differently. And that is exactly what friends are for . . . so thanks to Donald for taking that task on.
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 28, 2015 16:27:37 GMT
However, Tony did none of those things (emotional abuse is different from behavior that affects someone's emotions negatively). He did discipline his child, and it was called for - Annie was cheating. He did hold her back to a previous form, which was also called for. He was not very nice about it, which was a mistake - and as a father, probably a bigger one than he has yet realized - and he has not been very "fatherly", which is unfortunate and also a mistake. But, he did not abuse Annie. I agree with everything you're saying, except whether Tony's emotionally abused her - he has withheld his affection for her entire life (by just being who he is), and then (regardless of his reasons) used her desperation for his approval to coerce her into agreeing to all of the Court's terms (including giving up most contact with her two closest friends/compatriots/supporters). Depending on how you define abuse, this may fall under that umbrella or not. It's also very grey because Tony clearly didn't want to "abuse" her, but that doesn't change what actually happened. But you seem a very decent fellow, and I don't want to argue. Shall we agree to disagree, good sir? |
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Post by pxc on Aug 28, 2015 16:30:12 GMT
I think at this point most of us are drawing in toward the center, after spending some time being polarized. I see people who at one time were calling him an abusive asshole (like me!) taking it a little easier on him. And I see people that were championing his cause pointing out his flaws. I don't think most of us disagree all that much anymore.
It seems like the new concern will be "Will Tom tie this up too neatly and make nothing Tony's fault, or will it be more realistic and organic?" I think the way I phrased that shows where I stand. I don't think Annie will forgive everything, or there'll be any big tearful reconciliation hug anytime soon, nothing like that. I think the first thing we'll see is her putting herself back together, and then she'll in some way confront her father about everything. And by confront I don't mean everything will be resolved. I think she'll free herself some from being under his thumb, enough so that other parts of the plot can progress again. I do think there will be reconciliation. It'll just be slow, as it should be.
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Ender
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Post by Ender on Aug 28, 2015 16:36:55 GMT
he has withheld his affection for her entire life, and then (regardless of his reasons) used her desperation for his approval to coerce her into agreeing to all of the Court's terms (including giving up most contact with her two closest friends/compatriots/supporters). I don't think he was coercing her or trying to get her approval or anything. It was just an order, from the authority of the court passed down through him. I don't think she could have objected if she wanted to. He already said that him having her stay back was part of the conditions of preventing her expulsion, and moving out of the old dorms was part of the requirement for that. As for why she's in that weird huge room now, I have no idea. Maybe it's some sort of punishment dorm for cheaters so they can't cheat? Haha, probably not. |
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
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Post by Sadie on Aug 28, 2015 16:37:11 GMT
Well, there's really only one possible solution to this whole situation.
Tony needs to get together with his friends to cook up a convoluted scheme that requires him to sweep in and rescue Annie and then the two of them will have to work together to solve the crisis. It can't fail!
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Kya
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Post by Kya on Aug 28, 2015 16:39:17 GMT
Wow, just...man, this explains like 90% of his dickishness right away.
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Post by bluerose on Aug 28, 2015 16:41:41 GMT
I wonder what Renard will think, if he's heard all of this. I'm curious for his perspective, especially since he also feels guilt for the death of his friend Daniel - but Rey feels guilt for not restraining himself, while Tony feels guilt for not working hard enough. Both of their guilt complexes revolve around Surma. Interesting contrast in how they might see their failures... Tony and Renard join forces in a fantastic "buddy cop" type comic to take down the Court from the inside. WANT. I didn't know how badly I wanted this until someone suggested it but it's an idea that should happen. And in regards to finally hearing Tony explain himself, it's beyond sad. But to use a good phrase to describe the sitch, "It explains it, but it doesn't condone it." The silver lining is that he KNOWS he screwed up. How he handles that will determine what I think of him from here on end. |
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Post by Trillium on Aug 28, 2015 16:42:46 GMT
Honestly, he should be apologizing to Annie. And yes, I know this is unreasonable given his current situation. Not to mention his normally-chilly personality. But he owes it to her, and he should know that. . ya know, I think he does. And I think we'll see it happen. He'll get there. In the mean time, she heard him acknowledge the hurt he unfairly inflicted on her, which is oh so important. I hope now she can reconcile with her teared off self. Hold on a moment. Tony has not apologized to anyone. He has been telling his story. You could view this as a confession to his best friend Donald. While drinking. If he can think straight tomorrow he could begin to get some help so he doesn't cause more damage. This is a first step. On today's page, that panel of him splintering in class was terrifying. Seeing Annie looking so much like Surma broke him. He could snap at Annie and have her leave the room or have a full nervous breakdown in front of the whole class. Tony might not have been able to open up and talk without a belt or three. It is possible he has not had an honest talk about Surma's passing since her death. Then there is all the other things he's been doing and realizing some of the damage he's done to himself as well as Annie. Of course whatever was in that bottle may or may not have been alcohol as we know it. I have been assuming it was hard liquor and it probably is but then again Don might have a trick up his sleeve. If I had had that much hard liquor I be wrecked for days. |
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 28, 2015 16:49:10 GMT
he has withheld his affection for her entire life, and then (regardless of his reasons) used her desperation for his approval to coerce her into agreeing to all of the Court's terms (including giving up most contact with her two closest friends/compatriots/supporters). I don't think he was coercing her or trying to get her approval or anything. It was just an order, from the authority of the court passed down through him. I don't think she could have objected if she wanted to. The Court can make rules, but Annie's never cared about their opinions or orders much. The Court had to get Annie to follow their orders, and the only way to do that was to force her into a more agreeable state of mind. Hence their retrieval of Anthony, who is the only person who could get such a response out of Annie. This is especially vital where Renard is concerned. Annie would never, ever have given up Renard if her father hadn't already TKO'd her. The Court already suggested it once, and that worked poorly. |
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Post by sable0aria on Aug 28, 2015 16:56:06 GMT
So he feels bad about how he's treated Annie, but has not even tried to apologies to her, or change his behavior. I'm not impressed.
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Ender
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Post by Ender on Aug 28, 2015 17:02:26 GMT
I don't think he was coercing her or trying to get her approval or anything. It was just an order, from the authority of the court passed down through him. I don't think she could have objected if she wanted to. The Court can make rules, but Annie's never cared about their opinions or orders much. The Court had to get Annie to follow their orders, and the only way to do that was to force her into a more agreeable state of mind. Hence their retrieval of Anthony, who is the only person who could get such a response out of Annie. This is especially vital where Renard is concerned. Annie would never, ever have given up Renard if her father hadn't already TKO'd her. The Court already suggested it once, and that worked poorly. You're right, that is probably one of the reasons they brought Tony back. I got the impression though that it was mainly for something else (the Omega project?), and expelling Annie was more just a threat to get him to come back. In other words, "If you don't come back, we'll expel Annie just before graduation. If you do come back, we'll allow her to graduate with the condition that she stays back one year." The fact that it was left to Tony to give her the news was probably just a bonus to the Court. I'm not so sure that Tony even knows Annie enough to know that the Court might be using him that way. Remember, the last time he saw her she was as she was at the beginning of the comic, always obedient and repressing her emotions. |
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