madragoran
Full Member
"If he trully does hurt you, I will rend the flesh from his bones on your word"
Posts: 232
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Post by madragoran on Aug 28, 2015 7:50:20 GMT
Seconding the "let's see how how he acts in the morning when he's sober". How much of this remorse came from him, and how much came from the bottle? People who are ashamed of their sober actions when they're drunk tend to be equally ashamed of their drunk actions when they're sober. My abusive ex-husband used to be drunkenly remorseful for the cold and hurtful things he did while he was sober, too, and when he sobered up again, he swore the things he said while he was drinking were "crap". And Anthony's bare, hardly-liveable home reminds me of nothing so much as the home of the type of alcoholic who's checked out of life. That aside, it's at least good that he's recounting what happened, and expressing remorse. Antimony was at least owed that, and Donald was wise enough to know it could really have happened no other way. I think, of all the Court, Donald best understands Antimony, because under his deceptively bland nerdiness, he is an emotionally intelligent man of great compassion who loved both of her parents. He, at least, takes Annie's mediumship seriously and is betting on her ability to relate to the most difficult of people, while recognizing that she's still very young and that she needs his help very much. I think Anthony's too broken and lost to take on the adult's task of regaining his child's trust, and probably doesn't deserve that trust, anyway. I'm not sure he'll respond optimally to her efforts to be kind and understanding. Like I said... we'll see "in the morning". All this. Exactly. [sorry for the fan girl post] |
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Post by keef on Aug 28, 2015 7:50:23 GMT
Great, now even Tony thinks Tony is an arsehole.
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Post by hellohello on Aug 28, 2015 7:57:17 GMT
I wonder what Renard will think, if he's heard all of this. I'm curious for his perspective, especially since he also feels guilt for the death of his friend Daniel - but Rey feels guilt for not restraining himself, while Tony feels guilt for not working hard enough. Both of their guilt complexes revolve around Surma. Interesting contrast in how they might see their failures... Tony and Renard join forces in a fantastic "buddy cop" type comic to take down the Court from the inside. |
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Post by foresterr on Aug 28, 2015 8:05:58 GMT
Tony and Renard join forces in a fantastic "buddy cop" type comic to take down the Court from the inside. Seeing how Kat took most of the safeties off Rey (including the important one) that "team-up" idea may turn out rather interestingly. |
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Post by speedwell on Aug 28, 2015 8:10:30 GMT
I wonder what Renard will think, if he's heard all of this. I'm curious for his perspective, especially since he also feels guilt for the death of his friend Daniel - but Rey feels guilt for not restraining himself, while Tony feels guilt for not working hard enough. Both of their guilt complexes revolve around Surma. Interesting contrast in how they might see their failures... Tony and Renard join forces in a fantastic "buddy cop" type comic to take down the Court from the inside. Ha, ha. But seriously, look how much guilt and shame revolve around that one woman in this comic. Not only Anthony and Renard, but James and Anja, too. Antimony herself, obviously. The Hylands, perhaps. Coyote seems to have a tremendous distaste for her role in tricking Renard, as far as one can read Coyote, anyway. Even the psychopomps are understandably uncomfortable. I've been increasingly uncomfortable with the Madonna-like, "poor sweet thing" type of reaction she seems to have been getting from the readership. It may be a bit paranoid, but I wonder what sort of hand she might have had in setting the events in motion that led to these pages. It is a fire spirit that she is, to be sure. |
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Aug 28, 2015 8:11:08 GMT
It seems Tony gains diamond hair abilities when he has a nervous breakdown. Neat!
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Post by geminisun on Aug 28, 2015 8:21:11 GMT
I think Anthony's too broken and lost to take on the adult's task of regaining his child's trust, and probably doesn't deserve that trust, anyway. I'm not as ready as others on the forum to go "awww poor guy" and forget that he actually did make bad choices and cause great harm. I'm not sure he's even able to respond optimally to her efforts to be kind and understanding. I'm not sure how far he can heal. I certainly don't expect a sudden rush of fatherly, understanding warmth and affection; Anthony has never had it in him at all. Like I said... we'll see "in the morning". Yeah, I think that's right on the money. No matter how many reasons there were for his behavior, he really is in no place to be a parent right now. Possibly he might be if he had managed not to go haring off on his Surmaquest, but then if he hadn't, he wouldn't be Anthony Carver... Personally, I'm... actually pretty okay with this development, and I've been fervently hoping that Tom wouldn't justify Tony's behavior with a handwave of "oh it's okay because he's a good guy for realsies". This is a reasonable and nuanced background for what happened in the classroom that day - now we know why all that happened, and we can see how Tony feels about it, but without exonerating him. I mean, for sure I'm relieved to find out that making Annie retake the year without telling her until the first day of school is at least mostly off his shoulders, because that was really beyond the pale. Probably he would not have chosen ahead of time to humiliate his daughter like that. As for the rest... well, he's a man who's bad at emotions at the best of times, and this is not the best of times. That's the kind of stress that can turn someone toxic. I think that's what's going on with Anthony, and I'm glad for it as a story. People who are toxic can still love the people they are poisoning, and even be deeply sorry for the toxicity, while still being toxic. I think that's what's going on with Anthony. He may be a broken-up mess over what he's done/is doing to his daughter, but if he can't stop doing it, y'know... we still got a problem. Basically, I'm glad to see that Tony isn't a cold-hearted bastard who abuses intentionally, just a godawful mess who is getting his mess everywhere and needs some frickin' help. |
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Post by darklao on Aug 28, 2015 8:21:26 GMT
wub wub Tony. Not impressed.
Also, so she gets expelled by the court pre-graduation. So... what. No more being manipulated by the Court like her father (and mother?) before her? Yes... what a tragedy. >_>
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Post by arf on Aug 28, 2015 8:32:25 GMT
I have appreciated, from when we were wondering just how far back Annie was being pruned in 'The Tree', that some folk with experience of abusive relationships are not as willing to be as forgiving of Tony (or Tom) as others.
I have no fixed opinion about Tony's eventual redemption: he's come a ways. He's got a lot further to go.
I definitely don't think resolution will have occurred by chapter's end, though. (my own call for that is Annie will be glancing at her elemental self, and hesitantly saying: 'M-mother?')
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west
New Member
Posts: 37
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Post by west on Aug 28, 2015 8:35:34 GMT
nope. he is the misunderstood hero with the heart of gold who was forced to do terrible things because forces outside his control made him do it. and I say again nope. Anthony Carver is starting to piss me off more than he actually did when he was driving Annie insane. That I could get. Here is some more dick moves on top of a cart load of dick moves. Fine. We will deal with your dick moves. I really don't see anything in this chapter that paints him as heroic in anyone's eyes, least of all his own. I mean, his grand crusade to save Surma was cultivated in self-imposed isolation with a deliberately incomplete understanding of the forces at play, and when she kicked it, he decided to hare off and play bloody Orpheus rather than look after himself and be an attentive father to someone who was sharing his grief. Sure, it was a horrible burden, but he responded with enough self-destructive folly to make him an honorary Winchester brother, and the situation he got himself into with Annie when the Court hauled him back is a direct consequence of his damn poor judgement. Which, from my corner of the peanut gallery, is pretty awesome. Having him as a cruel jerk to be avoided and/or neutralized is one thing, narratively. But seeing that internal anguish, the self-loathing and helplessness he shows, I can feel for him as a person and still want to whack him upside the head for being a horrible prat. And from Annie's perspective, sure it's great to know that he doesn't have it out for her personally, but whether she can afford to have him in her life depends on whether he can overcome that whole brooding act and actually deal with their problems. Basically, an explanation is not an excuse, and understanding doesn't mean forgiving. |
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Post by rafk on Aug 28, 2015 8:36:45 GMT
Jesus, Tom, think you could stab us in the heart and conscience a little deeper? Tom is the best troll that ever trolled. |
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Post by foresterr on Aug 28, 2015 8:37:33 GMT
I definitely don't think resolution will have occurred by chapter's end, though. (my own call for that is Annie will be glancing at her elemental self, and hesitantly saying: 'M-mother?') It's interesting how this fire actually works. For now, I'm imagining it kinda like the Avatar spirit, but there are obviously many ways this can go. |
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Post by noone3 on Aug 28, 2015 8:38:24 GMT
TOM!
BEST.
SNAPE.
MOMENT.
EVER.
PERIOD.
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Post by Fishy on Aug 28, 2015 8:38:49 GMT
What with all the adventure and mystery, sometimes it's easy to forget that the Court is a terrible place of terrible people. Beat them at this game, Tony, you're better than that.
'Course you're still a dickhead, but hey, the enemy of my enemy, right?
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Post by smurfton on Aug 28, 2015 9:07:23 GMT
I definitely don't think resolution will have occurred by chapter's end, though. (my own call for that is Annie will be glancing at her elemental self, and hesitantly saying: 'M-mother?') It's interesting how this fire actually works. For now, I'm imagining it kinda like the Avatar spirit, but there are obviously many ways this can go. But Annie already knew that the fire elemental part has been passed on from mother to child for generations. Why a special reaction now? |
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Post by arf on Aug 28, 2015 9:53:56 GMT
It's interesting how this fire actually works. For now, I'm imagining it kinda like the Avatar spirit, but there are obviously many ways this can go. But Annie already knew that the fire elemental part has been passed on from mother to child for generations. Why a special reaction now? Annie might have known the spark that quickened her Mother passed on. My conjecture is that her Mother's awareness might have passed on as well. (Hence why Tony's bonetenna zeroed in on Annie) |
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Post by aline on Aug 28, 2015 10:10:37 GMT
Seconding the "let's see how how he acts in the morning when he's sober". How much of this remorse came from him, and how much came from the bottle? People who are ashamed of their sober actions when they're drunk tend to be equally ashamed of their drunk actions when they're sober. My abusive ex-husband used to be drunkenly remorseful for the cold and hurtful things he did while he was sober, too, and when he sobered up again, he swore the things he said while he was drinking were "crap". And Anthony's bare, hardly-liveable home reminds me of nothing so much as the home of the type of alcoholic who's checked out of life. That could happen, but I wouldn't be too pessimistic just yet. Tom doesn't have any reason to make this conversation a stupid drunk talk. Wouldn't make much sense story-wise. Anyway, alcohol isn't the only factor in this conversation. This is litterally the first time in months that Tony could discuss those events with someone who isn't an enemy. Is it so surprising that it ends up with him finally cintemplating the consequences of his actions? I'm actually pleasantly surprised that he ended up giving all those information and admitted his own guilt without any push from Donald. I thought he'd be harder to handle (knowing his daughter who doesn't even drop her guard with her own best friend these days). Maybe getting drunk made it easier for him to talk, but the feelings have been there and eating at him for a while already. Much like another person currently present in this room. |
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rama
Junior Member
Heh
Posts: 54
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Post by rama on Aug 28, 2015 10:18:35 GMT
Great, now even Tony thinks Tony is an arsehole. Oh, Tony thinks Tony is the biggest arsehole. That is, it seems, kind of the problem. It's hard to get any perspective when you sit in a well, after all. Also, for the people who question why expulsion would be such a big deal, remember that this is the Court. There's most likely a reason she's at school there, and getting thrown out could be a lot more unpleasant than changing schools... Remember, people who most likely know about the river murder-ghost run the place, and they're okay with students out of bed, breaking rules all over the place. If they suddenly said that enough is enough, that doesn't bode well. |
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 28, 2015 10:26:05 GMT
I'm hoping it's his harsh words he regrets but we may never find out for sure. I read it as Anthony's guilt for that misadventure with the improvised hand of glory. That gets inflamed by Annie's resemblance to Surma, as it pokes right into those memories even harder than seeing Annie as such.  Buzzsaw Kat is now my favorite Kat But this is Anthony's flashback. So, when he glimpses Kat, he gets an impression of a buzzsaw? And he did succeed with the crazy impossible magic crafting... Hmm, maybe he does have at least latent etheric abilities? Turns out he was actually doing his best to not explode in front of the class. Wait, it was not obvious that it's most likely the same reaction as previously seen on Eglamore and Renard? Great, now even Tony thinks Tony is an arsehole. So it's more obvious than not calling a night a day?  |
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Pig_catapult
Full Member
Keeper of the Devilkitty
Posts: 171
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Post by Pig_catapult on Aug 28, 2015 10:30:14 GMT
... Well, Tony, you're a tragic piece of work. I have sympathy for your situation, but you're still a jerk who doesn't know how to check himself before he wrecks himself, and I don't particularly like you.
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Post by oneandoneis2 on Aug 28, 2015 10:36:22 GMT
At least he's apologizing finally. He should also GET HELP What he's doing now is the only thing he actually has available, sadly. Any headshrink inside the Court would report to the Court. Anyone outside the Court would be both 1) utterly spied on, and 2) unable to understand almost any of the context. Tony has no other actual options. By Court design. I'd say Jones would be a pretty good call, actually. Knows what's going on, isn't too "Courty" (see her reaction to the choice of Court medium), and is about the only person less-emotional than Tony. These two should definitely meet. She'd be a great therapist for him. |
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Post by calpal on Aug 28, 2015 10:36:57 GMT
So his world goes all topsy-turny and cartoon-y when he sees Annie sitting in class? Much as Annie's world did the same when she saw her father?
Like... like father, like daughter?
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Post by eightyfour on Aug 28, 2015 10:47:57 GMT
With the makeup Annie may just look too much like her mother, which Anothony may just not be able to handle yet. That's purely speculative, of course, but I still mostly see him as a tortured soul that's desperately trying to come to terms with the death of his loved one. Called it! *eats a cookie*  |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Aug 28, 2015 11:30:29 GMT
1. What does Anthony regret: almost killing Annie when he attempted to contact Surma, the bargain he made with the Court, or the way he treated Annie when he returned? Did the Court want Anthony back primarily to reign in Annie (and they aren’t that interested in him), primarily because they wanted him back (and Annie was just the leverage), or both in equal measures. Two yummy scoops of delicious ambiguity.
2. Tom presented Anthony as a villain and then walked the story back from that point. At this point in the story, Tom has really painted the Court as a cartoon villain, through Anthony's jaded point of view. I suspect that Tom will walk the story back from the Court being a cartoon villain as well.
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Post by lobstereo on Aug 28, 2015 12:07:18 GMT
There's someone else who's been able to hear all this...Renard. I wonder what his reaction or feelings about this might be?
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Post by vernes on Aug 28, 2015 12:17:35 GMT
Great, now even Tony thinks Tony is an arsehole. Hahaha, I'd shoot my drink out of my nose if I was drinking. TOM! BEST. SNAPE. MOMENT. EVER. PERIOD. Holy shit! You're right! This IS a snape moment! There's someone else who's been able to hear all this...Renard. I wonder what his reaction or feelings about this might be? Renard said nothing about this. Why not? |
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Post by wynne on Aug 28, 2015 12:31:31 GMT
I mean, his grand crusade to save Surma was cultivated in self-imposed isolation with a deliberately incomplete understanding of the forces at play, and when she kicked it, he decided to hare off and play bloody Orpheus rather than look after himself and be an attentive father to someone who was sharing his grief. Sure, it was a horrible burden, but he responded with enough self-destructive folly to make him an honorary Winchester brother, and the situation he got himself into with Annie when the Court hauled him back is a direct consequence of his damn poor judgement[...] Having him as a cruel jerk to be avoided and/or neutralized is one thing, narratively. But seeing that internal anguish, the self-loathing and helplessness he shows, I can feel for him as a person and still want to whack him upside the head for being a horrible prat. And from Annie's perspective, sure it's great to know that he doesn't have it out for her personally, but whether she can afford to have him in her life depends on whether he can overcome that whole brooding act and actually deal with their problems. Basically, an explanation is not an excuse, and understanding doesn't mean forgiving. THIS. This this this this this. I'm glad that Tony isn't completely evil, I feel bad for everything he's been through, I'm glad that he realizes that he's been a completely terrible father. He's still a prick who abandoned his daughter when she needed him the most. He is the grown up. He is the one who's supposed to be making sure that she's okay before anything else. Humans are flawed beings, so perhaps it's natural that he reacted in the way he did (it's sadly realistic, unfortunately), but that doesn't mean it's okay. I could be a little more understanding of the quest to find Surma if it was from a "I failed to save my wife, maybe at least I can save my child" sort of perspective, but right now that doesn't really seem to be the case. Snape is a very apt comparison in this case, I think. Bad stuff happened to him, he didn't deserve a lot of it, still failed at acting the way he should have with the children in his care, still a dick. I'm a little more inclined to support Tony's forgiveness than Snape's, just because Tony realizes exactly how much he's screwed up and clearly wants to do better (three-dimensional characters and all that), but he needs to work at it. |
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 28, 2015 12:44:07 GMT
Remember when we were speculating that the rays in this page were evil bone lasers sent by Tony to control his daughter? Good times. Let's hold off on any speculations about Tony's character at least a wee bit longer, folks. |
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Post by zeidoktor on Aug 28, 2015 12:47:29 GMT
If I didn't think it felt out of character at least for Tony, I'd expect after all the revelations that things won't be resolved without some kind of argument or shouting match between Tony and Annie.
I can also definitely see Annie getting sparked enough now to go on a Calling the Old Man Out tirade, but with all this I think Tony would just take it rather than try to argue back.
Fortunately Donald seems prepared to play neutral third party for them both.
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Post by artezzatrigger on Aug 28, 2015 13:06:39 GMT
Renard isn't on his desk. Did Anthony stuff him in a drawer, or has he been passed off to someone else?
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