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Post by l33tninja on Aug 28, 2015 17:14:39 GMT
However, Tony did none of those things (emotional abuse is different from behavior that affects someone's emotions negatively). He did discipline his child, and it was called for - Annie was cheating. He did hold her back to a previous form, which was also called for. He was not very nice about it, which was a mistake - and as a father, probably a bigger one than he has yet realized - and he has not been very "fatherly", which is unfortunate and also a mistake. But, he did not abuse Annie. I agree with everything you're saying, except whether Tony's emotionally abused her - he has withheld his affection for her entire life (by just being who he is), and then (regardless of his reasons) used her desperation for his approval to coerce her into agreeing to all of the Court's terms (including giving up most contact with her two closest friends/compatriots/supporters). Depending on how you define abuse, this may fall under that umbrella or not. It's also very grey because Tony clearly didn't want to "abuse" her, but that doesn't change what actually happened. But you seem a very decent fellow, and I don't want to argue. Shall we agree to disagree, good sir?  We can. And I will. I would even go so far as to allow myself to be open-minded on the emotional abuse front; this is perhaps a point that I haven't fully thought out. I consider intentions when using the word "abuse", and there are varying levels of abuse as well. I don't think Tony intended to hurt Antimony's psyche, but there is the fact that he very likely has hurt her, and so that should be weighed into the discussion. |
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Post by l33tninja on Aug 28, 2015 17:18:46 GMT
ya know, I think he does. And I think we'll see it happen. He'll get there. In the mean time, she heard him acknowledge the hurt he unfairly inflicted on her, which is oh so important. I hope now she can reconcile with her teared off self. Hold on a moment. Tony has not apologized to anyone. He has been telling his story. You could view this as a confession to his best friend Donald. While drinking. If he can think straight tomorrow he could begin to get some help so he doesn't cause more damage. This is a first step. On today's page, that panel of him splintering in class was terrifying. Seeing Annie looking so much like Surma broke him. He could snap at Annie and have her leave the room or have a full nervous breakdown in front of the whole class. Tony might not have been able to open up and talk without a belt or three. It is possible he has not had an honest talk about Surma's passing since her death. Then there is all the other things he's been doing and realizing some of the damage he's done to himself as well as Annie. Of course whatever was in that bottle may or may not have been alcohol as we know it. I have been assuming it was hard liquor and it probably is but then again Don might have a trick up his sleeve. If I had had that much hard liquor I be wrecked for days. Donald deserves some serious props. He is doing exactly what a best friend does when the need arises (disclaimer: best friend help does not necessarily require the use of alcohol). I think he will be instrumental in the eventual reconciliation of Tony and Annie (maybe many, many pages/years away). |
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Post by Nepycros on Aug 28, 2015 17:18:51 GMT
I agree with everything you're saying, except whether Tony's emotionally abused her - he has withheld his affection for her entire life (by just being who he is), and then (regardless of his reasons) used her desperation for his approval to coerce her into agreeing to all of the Court's terms (including giving up most contact with her two closest friends/compatriots/supporters). Depending on how you define abuse, this may fall under that umbrella or not. It's also very grey because Tony clearly didn't want to "abuse" her, but that doesn't change what actually happened. But you seem a very decent fellow, and I don't want to argue. Shall we agree to disagree, good sir? We can. And I will. I would even go so far as to allow myself to be open-minded on the emotional abuse front; all things considered, this is perhaps a point that I haven't fully thought out. I consider intentions when using the word "abuse", and there are varying levels of abuse as well. I don't think Tony intended to hurt Antimony's psyche, but there is the fact that he very likely has hurt her, and so that should be weighed into the discussion. Thing is, we've managed to establish a timetable that doesn't leave Tony too many opportunities to be a parent: He didn't acknowledge her much at the hospital, and the fault's on him for not taking the time to discuss with her before she went to Gunnerkrigg (even if he made sure she had every available option open to her at the Court). Then he disappears, and is isolated from really any contact until the surgery incident. He can't even tell if Annie's really able to communicate with him, or at least he didn't hear her. Then he goes comatose until he's finally a teacher again. Then all these shenanigans happened. I can't set aside the period at the hospital or present where he should be nicer to her, but the fact she's in boarding school, which is usually a period of separation from the parents, means that we can't expect the impossible from Tony, who used her enrollment as an opportunity to go on a literal spirit quest. |
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Post by Bandolute on Aug 28, 2015 17:18:56 GMT
And now Tony is crying in the present. And so will I when they finally hug each other. You know it's going to happen. I'd join the Annie & Tony Reconciliation Hug initiative. They have a lot to work on, and to be honest I'm not sure they can ever be in a healthy place again, but I want to believe it's possible. Honestly, has he even touched her this whole time? Even just, like, layed a hand on her shoulder? I don't think he has. What concerns me most right now is what Annie might do with this information. She'll feel guilty, she'll blame herself. That's the person she is--or at least, the person she was when she was whole. And nobody even knows about the cut-off elemental situation, the consequences of which are unknowable but potentially very, very bad. |
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Post by Draxiss on Aug 28, 2015 17:31:14 GMT
Well then. I knew we were going to get a sympathetic side to Tony, but I didn't expect it to be THIS sympathetic. While I won't say that I was a Tony-sympathizer BEFORE the reveal (and actually how he treated her really messed me up), I figured Tom was going to do SOMEthing to show what was going on. Still, I think Tony could have handled it better, and there's a whole bunch of aspects of this relationship that are still pretty problematic.
Basically, most of our judgements are based on too little information. Tom is really good at that.
I applaud you, Tom, and I'll certainly keep munching on popcorn as I watch the forums burn. There's more twists coming.
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Bill
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Post by Bill on Aug 28, 2015 17:58:46 GMT
So many people on this forum have been calling, again an again, for Tony to step up to the plate and take responsibility for Annie as her father. To get help, counseling, on his grief, his relationship to her, and his other problems, so that he can competently take on a nurturing, fatherly role to Annie. But is it necessary? I think not. Is it even the best course of action? I don't know.
So much has changed.
Tony has admitted himself that he "didn't deserve to see her again." That "her father died out there, in those caves." Said that he "never wanted to come back." Tony no longer considers himself her father, though he does still consider Annie to be his daughter. Indeed, he believes he no longer deserves to fulfill that role. By his wording, he thinks he cannot be her father again. He may or may not want to. I don't know. I don't know if Tony knows.
Meanwhile, Annie has grown up. Without him. She can and has handled herself (not very well at times, but still). She is not at all the girl Tony knew from Good Hope. At 15(?) years, she is a young woman. She has experienced, changed, and grown much in these two and a half years.
Even back in Good Hope, their relationship was quiet and distant. They hardly knew each other, as far as I can tell. For the record, Tom has said that Annie never told Tony she could see the psychopomps. (I do not know if Surma told him that Annie could.)
Both of them have changed a great deal in their time apart. Both have been through trauma without each other. Their reunion was traumatic for both of them, and continues to be so, perhaps because they are trying, and failing, to resume a father/daughter relationship. Neither of them is the same person the other sort of knew before.
And so I propose an idea I do not recall seeing here before. Annie should approach Tony as an equal. Adult to adult. If Tony is not going to be a father to the daughter he barely knows, then it will likely be healthier for both of them if Annie lets him by relinquishing the daughter role. Respect him, yes. Listen to him, yes. But not relate to him as child to parent. Early in this thread I expressed desire for a hug/cry-fest in the near future. I still want that. But in order for this relationship to heal, it appears that it must first change. I think it will be easier, more positive, and faster for Annie to do most of the initial changing.
Is not one of our hopes for this chapter that Annie realizes that her father is actually a broken man and that they need each other's help?
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Post by atteSmythe on Aug 28, 2015 18:17:46 GMT
Thing is, we've managed to establish a timetable that doesn't leave Tony too many opportunities to be a parent: He didn't acknowledge her much at the hospital, and the fault's on him for not taking the time to discuss with her before she went to Gunnerkrigg (even if he made sure she had every available option open to her at the Court). Then he disappears, and is isolated from really any contact until the surgery incident. He can't even tell if Annie's really able to communicate with him, or at least he didn't hear her. Then he goes comatose until he's finally a teacher again. Then all these shenanigans happened. I can't set aside the period at the hospital or present where he should be nicer to her, but the fact she's in boarding school, which is usually a period of separation from the parents, means that we can't expect the impossible from Tony, who used her enrollment as an opportunity to go on a literal spirit quest. Tony's choices removed the opportunity to be a parent, though. Being slightly hyperbolic, it's like claiming that getting into a fight isn't your fault, because you were drunk at the time. Sure, but you chose to get drunk. Consider that Antimony - and everyone around her - thought he'd be picking her up for the summer after her first term. Consider just what a massive lack of communication that implies. He'd have to say as little as "I have to go away for a while, and I may not be able to return for you after your first term. I've made sure that you will be cared for, and will see you as soon as my work allows." Twenty seconds that he never took. We can claim the same emotional devastation after Surma's death as he's displaying here, but that doesn't excuse the earlier times. There just always seems to be some reason that Tony taking care of Tony is more important than Tony taking care of Annie. BTW, I noticed that I've been responding to you a lot lately. I'm not seeking you out or anything, I just think we tend to check the comic at about the same time. From my perspective, it seems like you're thoughtful about the situation, but always stop about a step short of where I'm willing to take the Tony Blame Train. Makes for good conversation. Hope you don't mind. |
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Post by pxc on Aug 28, 2015 18:30:47 GMT
And so I propose an idea I do not recall seeing here before. Annie should approach Tony as an equal. Adult to adult. If Tony is not going to be a father to the daughter he barely knows, then it will likely be healthier for both of them if Annie lets him by relinquishing the daughter role. Respect him, yes. Listen to him, yes. But not relate to him as child to parent. Early in this thread I expressed desire for a hug/cry-fest in the near future. I still want that. But in order for this relationship to heal, it appears that it must first change. I think it will be easier, more positive, and faster for Annie to do most of the initial changing. Is not one of our hopes for this chapter that Annie realizes that her father is actually a broken man and that they need each other's help? This is an idea I've been trying to express but you put it better I think. The two of them can reconcile, but there can't be the prototypical relationship that a father and daughter share, for the reasons you've mentioned. How could she trust him to make good decisions for her? How could he trust himself? Some sort of equals relationship is probably the best they can hope for. One where she might ask him for advice, but won't count on him for much of anything, especially at first. He would need to prove himself trustworthy to her, IMO. And no more of this fatherly disapproval nonsense about her cheating. She'll have to let go of her need for his approval, which will probably be hard. She might resent him for it, and she'd be right to feel that way. Man what a shitty situation. However I do think he needs help/counseling. Not so he can be a better father, but so he can just function as a person. |
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 28, 2015 18:37:28 GMT
I don't think he was coercing her or trying to get her approval or anything. It was just an order, from the authority of the court passed down through him. I don't think she could have objected if she wanted to. One, why not? And two, uh... she already did? On public and in Jonathan's face. Poor ol' Coyote almost laughed his tail off. He already said that him having her stay back was part of the conditions of preventing her expulsion, and moving out of the old dorms was part of the requirement for that. As for why she's in that weird huge room now, I have no idea. Maybe it's some sort of punishment dorm for cheaters so they can't cheat? Haha, probably not. Lots of possible reasons, from simply dishing out more degradation, to being supposedly fireproof to being voyeur-friendly. I wonder whether she will start talking to her watchers, however.  Well, there's really only one possible solution to this whole situation. Tony needs to get together with his friends to cook up a convoluted scheme that requires him to sweep in and rescue Annie and then the two of them will have to work together to solve the crisis. It can't fail! But any scheme of Anthony Carver can't fail. That's the beauty of them. However, his fiends are more sane, and also have some idea as to what startled Annie can do. So, no accidentally bisected Tony for you. |
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Post by rainofsteel on Aug 28, 2015 18:49:58 GMT
This is the classic attitude of the abuser. "Oh, I'm so sorry I did that!"
I'm not feeling any sympathy.
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Gauldoth Half-Dead
New Member
Contrary to popular belief, I do NOT eat children.
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Post by Gauldoth Half-Dead on Aug 28, 2015 18:54:40 GMT
I'm sort of waiting for an awkward astral hug from Annie.
But... oh, Tony. You poor fool.
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ysca
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Post by ysca on Aug 28, 2015 19:05:53 GMT
wub wub Tony. Not impressed. Also, so she gets expelled by the court pre-graduation. So... what. No more being manipulated by the Court like her father (and mother?) before her? Yes... what a tragedy. >_> That would be a huge deal though. She would lose all the friend's she's made, the support system she has, She would be cast out alone, without any help, into the world, and she wouldn't even have any evidence that she went to school. And even then, that doesn't mean she would be free from the court and the people who are controlling it, it would just mean she'd lose any benefits that come with being part of the court. |
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Post by knightingale on Aug 28, 2015 19:37:24 GMT
I suppose at the end of the day we can think whatever we want of Tony, but the only person who's truly in the position to forgive or damn him for his actions is Annie -- and for meaningful forgiveness, she'd have to understand how badly he messed up in the first place. |
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 28, 2015 19:40:53 GMT
wub wub Tony. Not impressed. Also, so she gets expelled by the court pre-graduation. So... what. No more being manipulated by the Court like her father (and mother?) before her? Yes... what a tragedy. >_> That would be a huge deal though. She would lose all the friend's she's made, the support system she has, She would be cast out alone, without any help, into the world, and she wouldn't even have any evidence that she went to school. And even then, that doesn't mean she would be free from the court and the people who are controlling it, it would just mean she'd lose any benefits that come with being part of the court. And being "banished" from the Court quite possibly means also being cut off from the Forest. At an absolute minimum, it means that the Court refuses to receive her as Forest Medium, immediately and unilaterally terminating the only remaining responsibility she has. The Court plays hardball. For keeps. |
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 28, 2015 19:43:17 GMT
Well, there's really only one possible solution to this whole situation. Tony needs to get together with his friends to cook up a convoluted scheme that requires him to sweep in and rescue Annie and then the two of them will have to work together to solve the crisis. It can't fail! He could even get desperate and ask Red to help. "Hey, Miss Tubs-a-Lot! Go be friends with Jabroni McHandless again!" |
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Post by darththulhu on Aug 28, 2015 19:51:16 GMT
Well, there's really only one possible solution to this whole situation. Tony needs to get together with his friends to cook up a convoluted scheme that requires him to sweep in and rescue Annie and then the two of them will have to work together to solve the crisis. It can't fail! But any scheme of Anthony Carver can't fail. That's the beauty of them. However, his fiends are more sane, and also have some idea as to what startled Annie can do. So, no accidentally bisected Tony for you. I'm pretty sure that's actually a reference to Annie's increasingly ridiculous and transparent schemes to get Kat to forgive her for disappearing into the Forest a year ago. It ended with Kat thinking Lindsey's gigantic and horrifying body was "just another Annie scheme." If Tony was trying to save Annie from ludicrous Court disasters run amok, it would probably be more endearing. As it is, one imagines that his heart isn't actually in it. Because seriously broken. |
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Post by keef on Aug 28, 2015 20:10:56 GMT
Astral Projection Hugging Time! Tony's alcohol-breath and Annie's fire... could become an explosive hug. But I think the Carvers are more like handshake-people anyway. But seriously, most children would do everything to be not in the same room as their dad after half a bottle of whisky. This may not be true for her fiery part. Everyone in this discussion page today is being so...polite and courteous. Acting all...civilized. -- How dare you act like reasonable human beings with Me around?!? Don't worry my lord, almost two and a half day before the new page. |
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Bill
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Post by Bill on Aug 28, 2015 20:29:06 GMT
I'm sort of waiting for an awkward astral hug from Annie. But... oh, Tony. You poor fool. Astral Projection Hugging Time! Annie can affect the physical in her ether form. Tony's reaction could be hilarious. |
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Post by descoladavirus on Aug 28, 2015 22:13:15 GMT
Everyone keeps commenting on "oh my god he's only like this cause of the alcohol" and really making a deal of this whiskey. I think Don knows that even Tony would keep the mask up...and keep being aloof, without a bottle of whiskey.
It's nice to see his reasoning, and we should keep in mind, he knows far more about the court than Annie or us. Annie's expulsion and removal from "The program" which seems to be separate from her schooling, could have consequences we cannot know. Maybe consequences worth his actions.
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Post by psybershadow on Aug 28, 2015 23:05:53 GMT
You know, I wonder if it was overhearing Antimony's comment about "what, are they going to tell my parents?" that made the court do just that.
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Post by Bandolute on Aug 28, 2015 23:40:43 GMT
I'm sort of waiting for an awkward astral hug from Annie. But... oh, Tony. You poor fool. Astral Projection Hugging Time! Annie can affect the physical in her ether form. Tony's reaction could be hilarious.  ... ...oh, you said " hilarious". |
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Post by psybershadow on Aug 29, 2015 0:15:01 GMT
Annie can affect the physical in her ether form. Tony's reaction could be hilarious. >snip< ... ...oh, you said " hilarious". I'm getting Dolan comic flashbacks. |
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Post by Bandolute on Aug 29, 2015 1:29:19 GMT
>snip< ... ...oh, you said " hilarious". I'm getting Dolan comic flashbacks. I'm about that level in terms of art, yeah. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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Post by mordekai on Aug 29, 2015 3:30:56 GMT
wub wub Tony. Not impressed. Also, so she gets expelled by the court pre-graduation. So... what. No more being manipulated by the Court like her father (and mother?) before her? Yes... what a tragedy. >_> I don't even think they will expel her before graduation. I think they were going to let her graduate and then kick he out of the court. |
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Post by aline on Aug 29, 2015 10:32:02 GMT
wub wub Tony. Not impressed. Also, so she gets expelled by the court pre-graduation. So... what. No more being manipulated by the Court like her father (and mother?) before her? Yes... what a tragedy. >_> Yeah right, who'd care about losing the only place they can call home and all the people they care about, especially if they're already orphans? Who'd care about leaving the one organization who has sustained them their entire existence? No biggie. Also, pre or post graduation doesn't matter all that much. When you don't have anyone to pay for your studies, your options can be summed up by "sleep under a bridge until someone pities you enough to let you clean up toilets at the minimum salary". |
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Post by sable0aria on Aug 29, 2015 19:31:04 GMT
That would be a huge deal though. She would lose all the friend's she's made, the support system she has, She would be cast out alone, without any help, into the world, and she wouldn't even have any evidence that she went to school. And even then, that doesn't mean she would be free from the court and the people who are controlling it, it would just mean she'd lose any benefits that come with being part of the court. And being "banished" from the Court quite possibly means also being cut off from the Forest. At an absolute minimum, it means that the Court refuses to receive her as Forest Medium, immediately and unilaterally terminating the only remaining responsibility she has. The Court plays hardball. For keeps. I don't really see that happening though. Coyote doesn't have to obey the court, and has already shown willing to openly defy them by making Annie the forest medium. I can see Coyote not only taking Annie in as a permanent denizen of the Gillette, but regardless of interaction with the court giving her some kind of position of power(And making sure the court knew about it especially if she was really successful at it.) just out of amusement for how much that might anger them. |
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Post by knightingale on Aug 29, 2015 22:46:45 GMT
I'm getting Dolan comic flashbacks. I'm about that level in terms of art, yeah. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I had to lie down for a minute or two because I was briefly overcome by emotion. Oh god. I'm not even that much of a Tony fan, I just want them both to heal. |
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Post by todd on Aug 30, 2015 0:09:48 GMT
We're assuming that the Court was telling the truth (or at least, the whole truth) to Anthony. It's possible that they were lying about the plans to banish her in order to manipulate him into doing what they wanted - with the advantage that:
a) About all he knew of Annie's activities at the Court came from the Court, which could suppress or downplay any information that would suggest that banishing Annie might not be the best solution and
b ) After all the trauma that Anthony had been through, his critical faculties might be numbed enough that he wouldn't spot the holes in its announced plan, as many of the readers have done.
But I'd say that if I was one of the higher-ups at the Court, and I wanted to curb Annie's activities, I wouldn't choose banishment. Locking her up in a fire-proof cell somewhere in the Court (and doing it right away, rather than waiting until graduation - who knows what she might do before then?) would seem a better plan.
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Post by mordekai on Aug 30, 2015 0:50:24 GMT
That would be a huge deal though. She would lose all the friend's she's made, the support system she has, She would be cast out alone, without any help, into the world, and she wouldn't even have any evidence that she went to school. And even then, that doesn't mean she would be free from the court and the people who are controlling it, it would just mean she'd lose any benefits that come with being part of the court. And being "banished" from the Court quite possibly means also being cut off from the Forest. At an absolute minimum, it means that the Court refuses to receive her as Forest Medium, immediately and unilaterally terminating the only remaining responsibility she has. The Court plays hardball. For keeps. I doubt Coyote cares what the Court wants, and I think he's perfectly able to get anybody he wishes into the forest and back. And I don't think the Court has a say about who can and who can't be the Medium. At best, they can refuse to receive any medium at all, cutting off communication with the forest, which would be a bad idea. If they expel Annie after graduation (I don't think they would wait until graduation if they planned to not let her graduate) she can just go to college somewhere else and keep developing her etheric skills on her own, visit the forest whenever she wishes to (Coyote would probably teach her how to reach it) and spend summer holidays with Kat. Nope. I think there is something more. Annie always knew that she risked expulsion everytime she challenged the Court; it is a private school (among other things), after all, and it can expel unruly students. And as I said, I doubt the Court can prevent Coyote form letting her into the forest. There is something else. I thought that maybe "taking her out of the program" means killing her, but, why would they take that risk? They must know that Annie has contacted the Psycopomps and the RotD by know, Annie's ghost could say that she isn't ready to pass to the Ether and ask the RotD to take her to Coyote, and if they tried to somehow destroy her soul, the Psychopomps would still know something fishy had been done and could tell Coyote. Why should the Court care about Annie when they are next to a forest full of etheric creatures, many of who were once members of the Court who knew more about it than she does? Once she's out of the Court killing her is more a nuisance than it's worth. Maybe the program is something so awesome that Anthony thinks that everybody would want to be part of it? Some kind of college for students of the etheric? Or maybe even a project to develop immortality for the members of the Court? Coyote said that the Court was Man's attempt to become God, and Anthony is probably very sensitive to the whole "death" thing... |
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 30, 2015 2:07:07 GMT
Why should the Court care about Annie when they are next to a forest full of etheric creatures, many of who were once members of the Court who knew more about it than she does? Once she's out of the Court killing her is more a nuisance than it's worth. In the interest of completeness, I think it's worth pointing out that Annie has been digging dangerously deeply into the Court's shady actions, past and present - Jeanne, talking to Coyote, manipulations of Renard, learning about the ether stations, etc. I doubt that many students know as much as she does, and as far as we know, they've all been "expelled" too. She is a dangerous loose cannon from the Court's perspective, especially since she appears to be aligning herself with Coyote and the Forest, and she seems relatively etherically powerful compared to other abilities we've seen. |
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