[1511] ...And your dad.

[OGRuddawg]

Annie keeps looking away when she speaks to Kat... She probably thinks she doesn't deserve Kat's kindness... I'm not sure Annie will let Kat pull her out of her funk. I'm betting someone else will have to get her out of this state of mind.

[Refugee]

May 10, 2015 0:19:19 GMT youwiththeface said:

May 9, 2015 22:36:31 GMT Refugee said:

Speaking of abuse, isn't this how many abusers (and other criminals) get started, by getting away with the little things?

I can think of no correlation between copying off a friend and abusing people or children.

See the bolded portion.

It is not the seriousness of the offense I point to, but the habit of mind.

Nor do I wish to compare the seriousness of what we know Annie did with what her Father did, or that we even suspect.

It is irrelevant that Kat doesn't feel betrayed by Annie.

All that matters is the fact that Annie fell short of her own standards; that she thinks she betrayed Kat (putting her at risk of punishment for something she didn't even know was happening) over something Annie doesn't really care about.

What this incident reveals about Antimony and her self-perception is far more interesting to me if it is her honest self-assessment than if she's simply sucking up to her abusive, bad old Daddy. Even if Anthony is as awful as most here think.

To me, Annie struggling with her faults is a far better story than Annie being a victim. Anthony would have had no opening against her if she hadn't cheated, and the Court would be backing her and not him if she weren't "walking around like she owns the place".

Imagine Anthony with Annie's engaging personality and good looks. That's what Antimony just walked away from becoming. Against that, Anthony being an asshole is as nothing.

===

Except for agreeing to give Reynard over. I'm assuming she hasn't done that yet, because that's a scene I want to see. (Well, "want". I don't expect to get any pleasure from it, but that's a huge thing that shouldn't be glossed over.

[youwiththeface]

May 10, 2015 1:59:17 GMT Refugee said:

May 10, 2015 0:19:19 GMT youwiththeface said:

I can think of no correlation between copying off a friend and abusing people or children.

See the bolded portion.

So obviously, someone who gets away with cheating will then figure that means they will get away with bullying other students, stealing from them, robbing liquor stores, turning tricks, torturing small animals, murdering folks...stop me if I start to sound ridiculous. 

I shouldn't have to say that there's a bit of distance between copying off of someone and hurting other people. And even if you do think a person can so easily go from wanting to do the former to then wanting to do the latter, anyone who has two brain cells to rub together can see that some things are a lot easier to get away with than others. Despite her various issues, I would say Annie qualifies as such a person.

[sapientcoffee]

May 10, 2015 1:59:17 GMT Refugee said:

May 10, 2015 0:19:19 GMT youwiththeface said:

I can think of no correlation between copying off a friend and abusing people or children.

What this incident reveals about Antimony and her self-perception is far more interesting to me if it is her honest self-assessment than if she's simply sucking up to her abusive, bad old Daddy. Even if Anthony is as awful as most here think.

This excluded middle though. It's possible for her to be disappointed in herself AND have a terrible dad, in fact, those two often go hand-in-hand. In my opinion, "honest self-assessment" is worthless when it's predicated on bad understanding, as shown on this page.

[Refugee]

May 10, 2015 5:19:37 GMT sapientcoffee said:

May 10, 2015 1:59:17 GMT Refugee said:

What this incident reveals about Antimony and her self-perception is far more interesting to me if it is her honest self-assessment than if she's simply sucking up to her abusive, bad old Daddy. Even if Anthony is as awful as most here think.

This excluded middle though. It's possible for her to be disappointed in herself AND have a terrible dad, in fact, those two often go hand-in-hand. In my opinion, "honest self-assessment" is worthless when it's predicated on bad understanding, as shown on this page.

I'm perfectly willing for Anthony to be a bad father; I'm just not interested in the kinds of stories I've read that fall out from bad or even abusive parents.

I am far more interested in a story about a girl who is devastated by all this, not because she's been brainwashed, but because she has failed her own legitimate standards.

I really regret discussion here having centered around abuse, causes and effects of. I'm tired of those stories. I see far too many of them.

I want this to about obstacles that Annie has fallen into on her own, not her recovery from an abusive parent.

I want this to be about Annie struggling to overcome her own failings, not her Father's.

Yes, yes, I see he has failings. He's not a nice man. I don't like him. I'm just more interested in his daughter.

(And I don't want to watch Anthony being crucified here for things we haven't seen him do. But I repeat myself. Again.)

[anisky]

May 10, 2015 6:26:46 GMT Refugee said:

May 10, 2015 5:19:37 GMT sapientcoffee said:

This excluded middle though. It's possible for her to be disappointed in herself AND have a terrible dad, in fact, those two often go hand-in-hand. In my opinion, "honest self-assessment" is worthless when it's predicated on bad understanding, as shown on this page.

I'm perfectly willing for Anthony to be a bad father; I'm just not interested in the kinds of stories I've read that fall out from bad or even abusive parents.

I am far more interested in a story about a girl who is devastated by all this, not because she's been brainwashed, but because she has failed her own legitimate standards.

I really regret discussion here having centered around abuse, causes and effects of. I'm tired of those stories. I see far too many of them.

I want this to about obstacles that Annie has fallen into on her own, not her recovery from an abusive parent.

I want this to be about Annie struggling to overcome her own failings, not her Father's.

I'm sorry that you have no interest in the stories those of us who have been abused have to tell. I'm sorry that you find our struggles to overcome our past of abuse, and hopeful eventual triumph in ourselves, to be not worth reading about.

Regardless, just because you don't like a particular storyline doesn't mean it's not the storyline that is taking place in the comic. Claiming that what is happening in the comic isn't what it appears to be simply because you don't *want* it to be what it appears to be is just denial, nothing more.

[zbeeblebrox]

May 10, 2015 3:07:29 GMT youwiththeface said:

May 10, 2015 1:59:17 GMT Refugee said:

See the bolded portion.

So obviously, someone who gets away with cheating will then figure that means they will get away with bullying other students, stealing from them, robbing liquor stores, turning tricks, torturing small animals, murdering folks...stop me if I start to sound ridiculous.

Considering you're taking this so seriously, I would suggest you not draw dismissive conclusions about the psychological effects of enabling narcissistic behavior in children unless you are actually qualified to speak on those things. If you were just discussing that stuff in the context of the narrative itself, I wouldn't care, but once you start comparing what's happening in GK to the real world, I want to start seeing some sources before you go around saying things like you know what you're talking about.

And that goes for everybody.

There's been a lot of armchair psychology going on around here lately, and hey that's fine if you're just confining your talk to the story. But it is not fine if you're using that pseudo-expertise while extrapolating the story's events into real world discussions on said topics. Then it becomes bad advice and it become counterproductive.

[sapientcoffee]

May 10, 2015 6:26:46 GMT Refugee said:

May 10, 2015 5:19:37 GMT sapientcoffee said:

This excluded middle though. It's possible for her to be disappointed in herself AND have a terrible dad, in fact, those two often go hand-in-hand. In my opinion, "honest self-assessment" is worthless when it's predicated on bad understanding, as shown on this page.

I'm perfectly willing for Anthony to be a bad father; I'm just not interested in the kinds of stories I've read that fall out from bad or even abusive parents.

I am far more interested in a story about a girl who is devastated by all this, not because she's been brainwashed, but because she has failed her own legitimate standards.

Assuming we know where Tom's taking the story can lead to hilarity. Granted, you're more dispassionate than good 'ole chibisoma, but you're still posting a lot/up in arms about something that hasn't yet come to pass.

[youwiththeface]

May 10, 2015 7:26:49 GMT zbeeblebrox said:

May 10, 2015 3:07:29 GMT youwiththeface said:

So obviously, someone who gets away with cheating will then figure that means they will get away with bullying other students, stealing from them, robbing liquor stores, turning tricks, torturing small animals, murdering folks...stop me if I start to sound ridiculous.

Considering you're taking this so seriously, I would suggest you not draw dismissive conclusions about the psychological effects of enabling narcissistic behavior in children unless you are actually qualified to speak on those things. If you were just discussing that stuff in the context of the narrative itself, I wouldn't care, but once you start comparing what's happening in GK to the real world, I want to start seeing some sources before you go around saying things like you know what you're talking about.

That's basically what I was saying myself. I may not be any kind of psychologist and can't speak with any authority on such matters, but I do know that someone who was would need more to go on to diagnose serious emergent tendencies than that a person copied off their neighbor periodically while attending school and had something of an authority problem for a while. That would be a far too narrow set of behaviors to extrapolate from, so I think it's silly to assume that Annie's cheating would have resulted in such serious issues given what we know of her, especially since for all we know she's already stopped. 

Maybe cheating is sometimes indicative of graver instances of anti-social behavior, but by itself and without further investigation, it would be premature to judge based only on that. And we're not someone investigating the problem who doesn't know Annie. We've  seen that there's far more to her than just that, and until her dad came back into the picture she seemed pretty healthy and normal to me. 

May 10, 2015 7:00:45 GMT anisky said:

May 10, 2015 6:26:46 GMT Refugee said:

I'm perfectly willing for Anthony to be a bad father; I'm just not interested in the kinds of stories I've read that fall out from bad or even abusive parents.

I am far more interested in a story about a girl who is devastated by all this, not because she's been brainwashed, but because she has failed her own legitimate standards.

I really regret discussion here having centered around abuse, causes and effects of. I'm tired of those stories. I see far too many of them.

I want this to about obstacles that Annie has fallen into on her own, not her recovery from an abusive parent.

I want this to be about Annie struggling to overcome her own failings, not her Father's.

I'm sorry that you have no interest in the stories those of us who have been abused have to tell. I'm sorry that you find our struggles to overcome our past of abuse, and hopeful eventual triumph in ourselves, to be not worth reading about.

Regardless, just because you don't like a particular storyline doesn't mean it's not the storyline that is taking place in the comic. Claiming that what is happening in the comic isn't what it appears to be simply because you don't *want* it to be what it appears to be is just denial, nothing more.

Very well said, anisky. 

[Refugee]

May 10, 2015 7:00:45 GMT anisky said:

May 10, 2015 6:26:46 GMT Refugee said:

I really regret discussion here having centered around abuse, causes and effects of. I'm tired of those stories. I see far too many of them.

I'm sorry that you have no interest in the stories those of us who have been abused have to tell. I'm sorry that you find our struggles to overcome our past of abuse, and hopeful eventual triumph in ourselves, to be not worth reading about.

Said as if no one had ever written such a story. As if there isn't an entire cop show ("SVU") written around these stories, and as if most other cop shows don't do episodes on this from time to time. As if I haven't seen these stories on the news, and in the paper, heard them talked about in private conversations and in group sessions. As if I haven't taken courses on safeguarding the vulnerable from sexual exploitation and other kinds of abuse, and heard stories in those classes.

As if all stories should be about your struggle.

It's not that I'm not interested, it's that I'm tired of them.

And once you've seen enough of them to know the plot, they're all pretty much the same, fiction and real life. Sorry, but there it is.

As a non-abuse victim, here's what I've learned from the best of those stories:

Life isn't about being a victim. Life is about you, not your abuser, if you had one, and not all of us do. If even most of us do, then abuse needs to be redefined, because the typical human experience shouldn't be defined to be pathology.

===

Regardless, just because you don't like a particular storyline doesn't mean it's not the storyline that is taking place in the comic. Claiming that what is happening in the comic isn't what it appears to be simply because you don't *want* it to be what it appears to be is just denial, nothing more.

Given the number of things folks have assumed Anthony is guilty of, when in fact we do not who did them, or in some cases even if it was done at all, I find it difficult not to smile a twisted smile at this statement.

===

I am reading an amazing story about a strong girl grappling with herself, her powers, and the world she lives in, which is NOT MINE and is therefore fascinating. Why people are so intensely focused on turning it into yet another Very Special Episode, I have no idea.

I don't want to see Annie abused, or drunk, or thrown in jail, or shot, or get AIDS, or any of that, then living through it to found an Etheric safe house and treatment center, and then, as her peak life achievement, use that career as a springboard to becoming both Prime MinisterANDPresidentpleaseogodnonono.

I'm looking for her to help Jeannine; find a way to pass on her elemental to her children without killing herself (maybe even with Anthony's help); relieve Zimmy's pain; maybe even begin to heal the breach between the Forest and the Court--you know, cool stuff.

Too many people want to take a golden, wonderful, magical story, and turn it into lead. I just don't understand that.

[youwiththeface]

May 10, 2015 8:26:59 GMT Refugee said:

May 10, 2015 7:00:45 GMT anisky said:

I'm sorry that you have no interest in the stories those of us who have been abused have to tell. I'm sorry that you find our struggles to overcome our past of abuse, and hopeful eventual triumph in ourselves, to be not worth reading about.

As if all stories should be about your struggle.

If you'll let me turn it around: as if all stories should be about what you want them to be about.

May 10, 2015 8:26:59 GMT Refugee said:

It's not that I'm not interested, it's that I'm tired of them.

As alinsky said, it doesn't really matter if you don't like it or you're tired of it, that won't change whether it is the focus of the story right now or not.

May 10, 2015 8:26:59 GMT Refugee said:

And once you've seen enough of them to know the plot, they're all pretty much the same, fiction and real life. Sorry, but there it is.

They all take place inside schools situated across from forests filled with monsters, spirits, shadow men and trickster gods and the abuse is focused around the victim's elemental attributes and powers? Holy crap, I gotta watch more of these things. I am missing some good stuff!

May 10, 2015 8:26:59 GMT Refugee said:

As a non-abuse victim, here's what I've learned from the best of those stories:

Life isn't about being a victim. Life is about you, not your abuser, if you had one, and not all of us do. If even most of us do, then abuse needs to be redefined, because the typical human experience shouldn't be defined to be pathology.

Because I'm sure all those stories you've seen were completely and totally well written, nuanced and accurate to real life, and can be used to base your judgments on, no question.

Besides which, you're talking as if you can control what other people do to you or how you feel when they do. You can't, and whether you want it to or not, psychological and emotional abuse can affect you just as physical abuse does. A person can no more keep from being hurt when someone speaks to them like they're less than human than they can keep their skin from parting when a knife is taken to it. What matters is what we do about it, and we can't do jack if we don't recognize that something is wrong. Realizing and admitting to the fact that you were or are being abused helps you recognize and avoid something that was bad for you and you needed to cut out of your life (if that option is even available to you). And the reason we have so many stories about this is because it's not always the most obvious thing to spot and thereby put a stop to. 

Really, your post just makes me think we still need more stories like this, and to applaud Tom even harder for addressing such a thing, especially so subtly. A lot of mistreatment gets dismissed if it isn't especially dramatic or obvious, so I really love that Tom is showing the utter ugliness of a strain of it that's so easy to miss or write off.

[stef1987]

I thought the card was funny and a nice gesture, up until I saw Annie's reaction,
at first I was baffled, but then I realized that her reaction is completely understandable, and thinking of my high school years, I would have thought the same, there's no way I wouldn't have interpreted it as joke on my behalf.
Although I'm sure they meant it well, think of how Annie feels and experiences all of this, there's no way she would believe they aren't making fun of her.

May 8, 2015 7:07:52 GMT carasanathema said:

The tears in her eyes are killing me. She believes what she's saying.

oh god, i didn't notice at first.

[anisky]

May 10, 2015 8:26:59 GMT Refugee said:

Regardless, just because you don't like a particular storyline doesn't mean it's not the storyline that is taking place in the comic. Claiming that what is happening in the comic isn't what it appears to be simply because you don't *want* it to be what it appears to be is just denial, nothing more.

Given the number of things folks have assumed Anthony is guilty of, when in fact we do not who did them, or in some cases even if it was done at all, I find it difficult not to smile a twisted smile at this statement.

There's much I could respond to in your post, but this I couldn't ignore. Your opponent is making an error, and therefore it is impossible that you are making that error? No. A thousand times no. That is not how it works.

You accuse your opponents of making an error. Even if you are correct in that, you could well be making the same error; dismissing the possibility when it is pointed out to you merely makes you a hypocrite.

Said as if no one had ever written such a story. As if there isn't an entire cop show ("SVU") written around these stories, and as if most other cop shows don't do episodes on this from time to time. As if I haven't seen these stories on the news, and in the paper, heard them talked about in private conversations and in group sessions. As if I haven't taken courses on safeguarding the vulnerable from sexual exploitation and other kinds of abuse, and heard stories in those classes.

Well, as to that last sentence I couldn't speak, I've never taken such a class. If you have, I can only assume you took some course of study involving working with the abused? If so, I am shocked at the insensitivity you've shown on these forums.

As for the rest, if you think that portrays the sort of abuse that I am talking about, the sort of abuse that Annie appears to have gone through-- the kind that is too subtle and insidious to end up on the news, or on cop shows, because it is a social worker and not a cop who would have to really look into the situation before they understood what is happening-- then no, you haven't read nor heard nor know much at all about this kind of thing. Maybe stay tuned and see something new in this comic, rather than complain that you don't like where it's going when you don't actually know where it's going nor how it will get there.

And let it tell the story it's telling, rather than vigorously denying every step of the way that it's telling the story it's telling, because you have some preconception that probably doesn't even apply.

[Refugee]

May 10, 2015 17:27:48 GMT anisky said:

May 10, 2015 8:26:59 GMT Refugee said:

Given the number of things folks have assumed Anthony is guilty of, when in fact we do not who did them, or in some cases even if it was done at all, I find it difficult not to smile a twisted smile at this statement.

There's much I could respond to in your post, but this I couldn't ignore. Your opponent is making an error, and therefore it is impossible that you are making that error? No. A thousand times no. That is not how it works.

I have acknowledged several times that all that has been alleged might be true.

I've also said, "Wait for the evidence," not, "Anthony's a fine man and a great Dad".

May 10, 2015 17:27:48 GMT anisky said:

I can only assume you took some course of study involving working with the abused? If so, I am shocked at the insensitivity you've shown on these forums.

You have again made an incorrect assumption; the training is required for anyone in my organization who might come into contact with children or vulnerable adults, and is intended to help us recognize abuse, and to not fall into behaviors that could even be misconstrued as abuse on our part.

I am unlikely to encounter someone who has been abused, at least not now as I'm starting out; even if I do, my role would be support, not therapeutic. We are, in fact, forbidden to attempt therapy, because we haven't been trained for it.

My "insensitivity", if that's what it is, consists of assuming, no, more than that, having faith that the people I will be working with are worthy of love and respect, even if they have none for themselves, even if their love has been poisoned by whatever their crisis may be. This is not to trivialize what has happened to them, far from it, but to amplify whatever shreds of self-respect they may have left. And the method I've been given is pretty much exactly to listen to their stories. Even at that, though, we have also been told not to give in to wallowing and endless rehashing. (Sitting with a dying man who simply wants to retell the stories that are all he cares about or even remembers now is a different matter.)

===

What I am scoffing at is not the very real suffering people experience or the damage it does. Instead, I have a problem with the stories I read or watch for entertainment falling into the dramatic but shallow fictions you mention. I have a problem with stories that emphasize how awful some people are, rather than how strong, how resilient, how loving, the rest of us can be in spite of them.

Anthony may well be an abuser; I hesitate to assign the label not only because of the evidence problem, but because I believe the label has become unfocused, and is applied in an inappropriate and even irresponsible and damaging way.

Nevertheless, I want the story to be about Annie and the error Annie has fallen into, and what she does to correct it. Not because her cheating is anything like what Anthony has done, even less what he is alleged to have done, but because she's a great character, and I care more about her response to her own weaknesses, including those induced by her Father, than I do about what her Father did to her.

May 10, 2015 17:27:48 GMT anisky said:

And let it tell the story it's telling, rather than vigorously denying every step of the way that it's telling the story it's telling, because you have some preconception that probably doesn't even apply.

Yes. Exactly what I've been saying. Exactly.

[TBeholder]

May 8, 2015 7:54:41 GMT Vilthuril said:

Occam's Razor gives insight into this, again: On the one hand, everything we see

It's not Occam's Razor, it's Colored Goggles.

May 8, 2015 7:54:41 GMT Vilthuril said:

says that Anthony is acting as an evil dirtbag, doing massive and gratuitous emotional damage to Annie with cruel behaviours totally unrelated and unnecessary to addressing his actual concerns - if any - for her or her safety, and indeed more likely destructive than helpful to her emotional and physical health and future success. Assumptions necessary for this to be true: One, that what is staring us in the face is true.

Two, there's a hidden assumption: either "everyone must see exactly what I see" or "X did Y, therefore X intended to do Y" (you didn't phrase it unequivocal enough to tell), neither of which is an Occam's Razor, or any sound method at all.
The former is either a symptom of illness (commonly known as "mind blindness"), or a behavioral trait of a telepathic species.
The latter is either a symptom of illness (typically exhibited by obvious schizophrenics suffering a delusion that they are paranoiacs) or American national sport of imitating these poor souls.
Are there are any other variants?

May 10, 2015 17:27:48 GMT anisky said:

May 10, 2015 8:26:59 GMT Refugee said:

Given the number of things folks have assumed Anthony is guilty of, when in fact we do not who did them, or in some cases even if it was done at all, I find it difficult not to smile a twisted smile at this statement.

There's much I could respond to in your post, but this I couldn't ignore. Your opponent is making an error, and therefore it is impossible that you are making that error? No. A thousand times no.

Kettle: Oh, look who got some soot on 'im!
Pot: Look who's calling others black, heh.
Tea kettle: No! Uuuuuuuuuu!
Vessels not full of hot air: kekekekeke

[anisky]

May 10, 2015 20:56:17 GMT Refugee said:

May 10, 2015 17:27:48 GMT anisky said:

I can only assume you took some course of study involving working with the abused? If so, I am shocked at the insensitivity you've shown on these forums.

You have again made an incorrect assumption; the training is required for anyone in my organization who might come into contact with children or vulnerable adults, and is intended to help us recognize abuse, and to not fall into behaviors that could even be misconstrued as abuse on our part.

Again?

And, I'm sorry, I don't see how what you said there isn't "[taking] some course of study involving working with the abused"?

May 10, 2015 17:27:48 GMT anisky said:

There's much I could respond to in your post, but this I couldn't ignore. Your opponent is making an error, and therefore it is impossible that you are making that error? No. A thousand times no.

Kettle: Oh, look who got some soot on 'im!
Pot: Look who's calling others black, heh.
Tea kettle: No! Uuuuuuuuuu!
Vessels not full of hot air: kekekekeke

I'm the pot calling the kettle black? I'd very much like to know what I've said that makes you think this accusation is true. Genuinely so. I strive not to be hypocritical. I would very much appreciate if you would point out where I have been.



EDIT: I think it would be useful for me to point out here, because so far as I can tell this has been missed/misunderstood: I am responding to/discussing Refugee's very-odd-seeming-to-me insistence that Annie ought only face obstacles and hardships that are her own doing or the result of her own actions, NOT Refugee's opinion/thoughts/beliefs about Anthony.

[Refugee]

May 10, 2015 22:11:20 GMT anisky said:

May 10, 2015 20:56:17 GMT Refugee said:

You have again made an incorrect assumption; the training is required for anyone in my organization who might come into contact with children or vulnerable adults, and is intended to help us recognize abuse, and to not fall into behaviors that could even be misconstrued as abuse on our part.

Again?

And, I'm sorry, I don't see how what you said there isn't "[taking] some course of study involving working with the abused"?

I apologize; having had it hammered into me than I was NOT being trained to work with people who have suffered abuse, I carelessly assumed that I hadn't been trained to work with people who have suffered abuse.

As to the training allegedly focusing on abuse, it was a two hour human-resources style video based on the assumption that viewers were innocent of the idea that abuse existed, and a print out of our sexual harassment and assault rules. The instructor actually called it "a hoop" we have to jump through for the insurance company.

I can't count that as any serious training for working with the abused, no. My interest in and knowledge of the topic springs from my discovery, after years of acquaintance, that a close friend had in fact been abused. Let me tell you, looking back, I am horrified at the cues I missed. (This was back in the 85-95 era, when I really was as ignorant as the video assumed. I don't think it's possible to be that ignorant now.)

Kettle: Oh, look who got some soot on 'im!
Pot: Look who's calling others black, heh.
Tea kettle: No! Uuuuuuuuuu!
Vessels not full of hot air: kekekekeke

I'm the pot calling the kettle black? I'd very much like to know what I've said that makes you think this accusation is true. Genuinely so. I strive not to be hypocritical. I would very much appreciate if you would point out where I have been.

Actually, I thought I was the one being chided.

"Mom! No fair! It's my turn to get spanked!"

[warrl]

May 10, 2015 23:13:03 GMT Refugee said:

I apologize; having had it hammered into me than I was NOT being trained to work with people who have suffered abuse, I carelessly assumed that I hadn't been trained to work with people who have suffered abuse.

If your training is as you describe it, you are being trained to recognize that you ARE working with someone who has suffered abuse, and to respond appropriately.

Appropriately, in your case, being to refer them to someone more qualified in that area.

What do you do if they refuse to go to that more-qualified person? Do you continue to work with someone who has suffered abuse, or do you shove them out the door without whatever services you're supposed to be providing?

[Refugee]

May 11, 2015 0:39:45 GMT warrl said:

What do you do if they refuse to go to that more-qualified person? Do you continue to work with someone who has suffered abuse, or do you shove them out the door without whatever services you're supposed to be providing?

We're heavily supervised lay volunteers. People are told when they come in what the limitations are, and are asked, by licensed therapists, what the situation is they're seeking help for. We're forbidden--note the severity of the word--forbidden to do work beyond our competence. We aren't "supposed to be providing" therapy, or working with abuse victims or those strongly considering suicide.

I'm kinda interested in cars, and can do a few simple things. I've been "trained to recognize" when I'm burning oil, or running too rich. Doesn't mean I should rebuild your engine.

---

I feel like I've gotten off track, and have worked myself into a place where I'm making contradictory claims for different reasons. Let me back up, please:

May 10, 2015 8:26:59 GMT Refugee said:

May 10, 2015 7:00:45 GMT anisky said:

I'm sorry that you have no interest in the stories those of us who have been abused have to tell. I'm sorry that you find our struggles to overcome our past of abuse, and hopeful eventual triumph in ourselves, to be not worth reading about.

Said as if no one had ever written such a story. As if there isn't an entire cop show ("SVU") written around these stories, and as if most other cop shows don't do episodes on this from time to time. As if I haven't seen these stories on the news, and in the paper, heard them talked about in private conversations and in group sessions. As if I haven't taken courses on safeguarding the vulnerable from sexual exploitation and other kinds of abuse, and heard stories in those classes.

Ah, yes.

When I said this, I was trying to defend myself against a charge that I was not interested, or did not care, about the real-life sufferings of my fellow human beings. (And I was pointing out that there is what I believe to be a surfeit of such stories proffered for our entertainment, in a way that I believe cheapens otherwise sound stories, such as GK, as well as dulling our compassion.)

I then got my wires crossed, and was trying to point out that despite my interest and compassion, I am not competent to actually provide therapy to such people.

I apologize for confusing myself and everyone else.

I am hoping that GK continues to be a wonderful story about a decent, talented person coming into her own, despite whatever obstacles she suffered in her upbringing.

If the story shifts to what a horrible person her Father is, I believe it will be a loss.

The fact that for entertainment I prefer stories other than those about abuse, though there is no deficit of those if you like them, does not mean I lack compassion.

The fact I enjoy videos of cats falling off furniture, on the other hand....

[Refugee]

About Annie's new digs: Perhaps this is a dormitory that was under construction before Annie took up residence. Annie's the beta tester.

Balconies along the walls would provide tiers of rooms.

It really is an odd space, but then, the Court tends to put its students in odd spaces.

[Miri]

Support for the "Anthony acting in conjunction with/compelled by the Court" sector: While this is pretty overkill, depending on just how many detentions were skipped, it does seem as though this might be (or seem, to the higher-ups) to be the only way to actually discipline her.

It's really easy to get caught up in the horror of what's happening here, and I'm not saying that any of it is justified--because, well, we know the Court doesn't always act in justifiable ways--but there is more of a "choices and consequences" thing happening here than I had originally recalled.

Fun food for thought: Eggles's concern here is perfectly reasonable...but did he have an inkling that something like this was coming?

[aline]

May 11, 2015 5:58:00 GMT Miri said:

Support for the "Anthony acting in conjunction with/compelled by the Court" sector: While this is pretty overkill, depending on just how many detentions were skipped, it does seem as though this might be (or seem, to the higher-ups) to be the only way to actually discipline her.

Annie got a talk on her defiant behavior from Jones AND Eglamore AND Coyote (in his own sweet nearly-killed-you-how-fun way). She promised to be more careful to everyone. Just after that, she had a serious set back when she wasn't made the Court Medium. Even if Coyote gave her a way out, it was far from a vote of confidence from the Court to her.

We have no reason to think that she skipped any more detentions after that. Even Anthony never mentioned it. Although maybe there wasn't any opportunity since then?

[Refugee]

May 11, 2015 18:35:05 GMT aline said:

May 11, 2015 5:58:00 GMT Miri said:

Support for the "Anthony acting in conjunction with/compelled by the Court" sector: While this is pretty overkill, depending on just how many detentions were skipped, it does seem as though this might be (or seem, to the higher-ups) to be the only way to actually discipline her.

Annie got a talk on her defiant behavior from Jones AND Eglamore AND Coyote (in his own sweet nearly-killed-you-how-fun way). She promised to be more careful to everyone. Just after that, she had a serious set back when she wasn't made the Court Medium. Even if Coyote gave her a way out, it was far from a vote of confidence from the Court to her.

We have no reason to think that she skipped any more detentions after that. Even Anthony never mentioned it. Although maybe there wasn't any opportunity since then?

I think they realized that Annie was just shrugging the detentions off, and stopped handing them out. Bu then, there's a lot of stuff about Annie we've never seen.

Do we even know where or what she routinely eats? Ever seen her do anything in a human class? What other students do for fun on Saturday nights when not bugging out to illicit parties? Has Mrs. Donlan ever served her macaroni and cheese? What child can live without occasionally inhaling mac'n'cheese?

Hm. I wonder if the Court assigned Anthony to...moderate...the influence of her elemental so they could control her more easily.

Note this is pure speculation; I can't support it, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's evidence it's not true.

[aline]

May 11, 2015 21:59:12 GMT Refugee said:

May 11, 2015 18:35:05 GMT aline said:

We have no reason to think that she skipped any more detentions after that. Even Anthony never mentioned it. Although maybe there wasn't any opportunity since then?

I think they realized that Annie was just shrugging the detentions off, and stopped handing them out. Bu then, there's a lot of stuff about Annie we've never seen.

Do we even know where or what she routinely eats? .

The point I'm trying to make is that if this was relevant to Annie's current punishment, it would probably have been mentioned by then, if only in passing.
Annie has cheated for two years. The court has ignored the behaviour long before Annie started skipping detentions.

Besides, as Annie herself put it, if they wanted to stop her (from skipping them) they would have. Every school has procedures to deal with skipped detentions such as suspension, disciplinary board and so on. How many schools do you know where they simply stop handing out detentions when students don't show up? And most of them manage to deal with such situations without tracking their students' location or having them in a 100% controlled environment. It can't possibly have been this difficult for the court to deal with a vaguely rebellious teenager. It's simply wrong to say that there was no other way to discipline her.

[elebenty]

May 10, 2015 21:11:01 GMT TBeholder said:

Kettle: Oh, look who got some soot on 'im!
Pot: Look who's calling others black, heh.
Tea kettle: No! Uuuuuuuuuu!
Vessels not full of hot air: kekekekeke

Pretty sure all of the vessels posting on the forums are full of hot (~37°C) air.

[sherni]

May 12, 2015 4:19:15 GMT aline said:

May 11, 2015 21:59:12 GMT Refugee said:

I think they realized that Annie was just shrugging the detentions off, and stopped handing them out. Bu then, there's a lot of stuff about Annie we've never seen.

Do we even know where or what she routinely eats? .

The point I'm trying to make is that if this was relevant to Annie's current punishment, it would probably have been mentioned by then, if only in passing.
Annie has cheated for two years. The court has ignored the behaviour long before Annie started skipping detentions.

Besides, as Annie herself put it, if they wanted to stop her (from skipping them) they would have. Every school has procedures to deal with skipped detentions such as suspension, disciplinary board and so on. How many schools do you know where they simply stop handing out detentions when students don't show up? And most of them manage to deal with such situations without tracking their students' location or having them in a 100% controlled environment. It can't possibly have been this difficult for the court to deal with a vaguely rebellious teenager. It's simply wrong to say that there was no other way to discipline her.

The Court really has no excuse here. It has behaved reprehensibly right from the very start. It was their job to see that Annie's education was taken care of. Annie's earlier life meant that she would need extra help with her studies, which they neglected to provide. They were aware of her cheating, but elected to do nothing about it (other than make some statements that might vaguely be interpreted as warnings) and made no effort to make her attend detentions. As far as problem children go, Annie was a pretty mild case. Had they pushed the issue, she would have certainly complied.

I would go so far as to say that the court is somewhat afraid of Annie. If they are behind the punishments enforced by Anthony, then it might be an effort to crush her as thoroughly as possible. You can compare it to the way someone might behave towards a dangerous, unwanted animal they have been saddled with. A few token efforts might be made to subdue the animal, but when those do not work, the person is free to throw up their hands and say, 'Well, we tried. Now we can bring out the big guns.'

I think the people in the Court suffer from the old human malady of fearing what they cannot fully understand or control. For all their study of ether, they still fear it, to the point of ignoring and belittling it whenever it isn't strictly necessary. Their attitude is actually similar to that of the Necromancy Order in Derek Landy's 'Skulduggery Pleasant' series. The Necromancers dedicated their life and magic to the study and appreciation of death, but the true core of their belief was their fear of death and desire to end the natural cycle of life and death altogether. Would the Court destroy the ether if they could?

[elebenty]

May 12, 2015 9:05:54 GMT sherni said:

I think the people in the Court suffer from the old human malady of fearing what they cannot fully understand or control. For all their study of ether, they still fear it, to the point of ignoring and belittling it whenever it isn't strictly necessary. Their attitude is actually similar to that of the Necromancy Order in Derek Landy's 'Skulduggery Pleasant' series. The Necromancers dedicated their life and magic to the study and appreciation of death, but the true core of their belief was their fear of death and desire to end the natural cycle of life and death altogether. Would the Court destroy the ether if they could?

They would definitely exploit it until it was used up (if possible). Whether they see it as a never-ending supply that they can't exhaust or as "it's here, we have the right to use it" limited commodity is unclear.

[Refugee]

So, the blue-for-boys card goes INTO the pink-for-girls envelope.

Gotcha.

Nerds. WeThey think they're sooo clever.