quark
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Posts: 137
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Post by quark on Apr 13, 2015 22:10:08 GMT
Anthony is still her legal guardian; he is legally able to sign off on medical procedures without Annie's consent, because she isn't yet of age. And we know that Annie has an potentially terminal illness regarding her etheric side. The etheric procedure it may have been "without consent", but if Tony was trying some form of etheric surgery with the intent of saving his daughter's life, then it's not really different than any other parent who puts their kid through chemo for cancer, or bone transplants for leukemia - painful and unhappy, but the end goal is for the child's sake. And he may not have asked Annie because he did not want to bring up the rather tender topic of the nature of Surma's death and all that it implies. Thing is, we're not sure what was going on - or even what connections Tony had to it. [snip] One more thing to think about: Annie came to the Court with a fairly strong sense of identity, able to speak her mind to adults and teachers (and able to refuse them Rey quite bluntly, even in year 9). If Tony was truly habitually authoritarian, I doubt Annie would've been able to do so, because if she was abused, she likely would've transferred her father's authoritarianism over to the members of the Court (Jimmy-Jims, the Donlans, etc.) and would not have refused them Renyardine's custody for fear of punishment. PPS: What happened to Brinnie? Six friends there were, three we met early, one stood long in absentia, one in the grave... what happened to her? Without her consent, yes. Without her knowledge though? Even if it remains legally tolerable, that doesn't make it morally right. And even if it were to avoid talking about Surma's death, I just don't find that very sympathetic reasoning. I honestly don't care if he was saving her life, this to me is just one of those lines that should never be crossed. Don't alter someone's body (or in this case, spirit) without their knowledge or consent if they are cognizant and rational enough to give it. Consider it a moral maxim of mine, one I by no means expect anyone else to agree with but I'm not going to budge on that point. Also, it's kind of a strawman. If you're putting your child through chemo, it's much easier if you tell them what's wrong, what is being done and that this is to help them, so they can participate and help make their treatment more effective. Also, they know that this isn't because their parents hate them or whatever, it's so they can survive. Imagine if you didn't tell them that all the things the doctors are doing is to help them get better, and that everybody needs to get into protective clothing so they don't get sick, not because their parents can't stand touching them. It would be a million times more horrifying than it already is. Also, let's not forget one thing: If he was on some super important mission to save the world, he could have told Annie that that might take a while. He also could have told Annie that he has methods of contacting her that don't involve the Court; then she wouldn't have waited for him to call (the first summer at the court, remember?) or wouldn't have tried to contact him after she was hurt. It didn't need to include specifics, or a return address or anything, just don't make her wait on a call that would not come for over. two. YEARS. On Annie's independence: She had another parent that loved her, taught her to trust herself and was emotionally available and very, very close to her. Surma was dying, and Anthony needed her to comfort him; she was a lot more stable and caring. |
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Post by fish on Apr 13, 2015 22:25:27 GMT
I've been staring at these last two updates so much, looking at long-haired Annie feel weird now. Great.
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 13, 2015 22:42:29 GMT
Also, it's kind of a strawman. If you're putting your child through chemo, it's much easier if you tell them what's wrong, what is being done and that this is to help them, so they can participate and help make their treatment more effective. Also, they know that this isn't because their parents hate them or whatever, it's so they can survive. Imagine if you didn't tell them that all the things the doctors are doing is to help them get better, and that everybody needs to get into protective clothing so they don't get sick, not because their parents can't stand touching them. It would be a million times more horrifying than it already is. Heck, if he thought Annie was mature enough to be left on her own (her making friends and meeting the Donlans & James being a lucky coincidence), then she should be mature enough to be told about a really serious surgical operation. |
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Post by makomk on Apr 13, 2015 23:13:13 GMT
Anthony is still her legal guardian; he is legally able to sign off on medical procedures without Annie's consent, because she isn't yet of age. And we know that Annie has an potentially terminal illness regarding her etheric side. The etheric procedure it may have been "without consent", but if Tony was trying some form of etheric surgery with the intent of saving his daughter's life, then it's not really different than any other parent who puts their kid through chemo for cancer, or bone transplants for leukemia - painful and unhappy, but the end goal is for the child's sake. And he may not have asked Annie because he did not want to bring up the rather tender topic of the nature of Surma's death and all that it implies. Thing is, we're not sure what was going on - or even what connections Tony had to it. Not anywhere I'm aware of, he isn't. For a start, if she's capable of understanding the options and weighing them up herself, he generally wouldn't be able to override her consent no matter what her age. Even if she isn't, her doctors should still explain to her the nature of her condition and of the treatment to the extent that she can understand it. Oh, and of course performing major treatment like surgery on someone he's related to - especially his child - is a violation of most medical codes of ethics in itself, because it may affect his judgement and her willingness to disclose important information or refuse treatment. (After all this does anyone honestly think she'd say no to him if he asked to perform major surgery on her, even if it wasn't in her best interests? Not that he would ask.) |
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Post by nero on Apr 13, 2015 23:23:52 GMT
Its possible that Annie wore an old dress because she was packing up and moving her stuff. But I don't think Annie cut her hair because some giant wad of gum got on her hair or some weird circumstance like that happened.
Anthony might have left Annie in the Court with no contact or never really conversed with her because it might have been painful for him. He might be doing something good or planning something devious.
Whatever his reasons are, he has been a cold father to Annie ever since Surma passed away. That won't change. He can become a great father later on or he could remain a distant figure to Annie for the rest of her life.
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Post by ctso74 on Apr 14, 2015 0:05:51 GMT
Anthony is still her legal guardian; he is legally able to sign off on medical procedures without Annie's consent, because she isn't yet of age. And we know that Annie has an potentially terminal illness regarding her etheric side. The etheric procedure it may have been "without consent", but if Tony was trying some form of etheric surgery with the intent of saving his daughter's life, then it's not really different than any other parent who puts their kid through chemo for cancer, or bone transplants for leukemia - painful and unhappy, but the end goal is for the child's sake. I was going to say: Parents cannot sign off on an experimental medical procedures, unless the children are terminal and near end of life (if then). Due to the calculable risk, no one would perform a questionable remote surgery, unless there was an immediate need. And what exactly made him think he was the appropriate surgeon, let alone the one most likely to succeed (if he was hurt). Then I thought: Hey, why did Tony do the surgery when he did? Near the beginning of year 9, Annie would have been 13. Was he that worried she'd get pregnant? That is some crap-poor risk assessment. If it turns out he was trying to "cure" her of the fire elemental, then he did a dangerous procedure on a 13 year old girl, out of fear that she'd get immediately pregnant. Either he didn't perform surgery, he did and something made him think he was running out of time, or he is #*@$!&% crazy. Just saying. |
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Post by todd on Apr 14, 2015 0:26:26 GMT
Highly doubt the story will move away from Annie significantly. Tom has said that he views both her and Kat as the two main characters. So focusing on her isn't some massive change. But no, it's not conceivable that Annie will just be removed from prominence. Given all the knots left untied removing her or significantly lessening her role would destroy the comic. Tom's not going to do that. True, but I still think that Annie's in no condition to be the protagonist any more - and that undoing both Anthony's strictures (which would severely limit the things the story can have Annie do) and her broken spirit (which would make her too passive to work as a main character) would realistically need to take a lot of time; I don't think you could remove them by the end of the chapter and make it convincing. More likely the next few chapters will be something like an extended "The Bad Beginning" where Annie was serving detention for nearly the entire chapter (as a result of the events in "Spring-Heeled" - the one other point in "Gunnerkrigg Court" to date where it really looked as if Annie would *have* to be written out - at least temporarily) - the chief difference being that now she's spending all her time studying under Anthony's supervision. I agree about the problems that Annie's absence would cause the story (Anthony wasn't kidding when he described this as "an inconvenience for everyone" - though I doubt he was thinking in metafictional terms), but Tom will probably find some way of solving that. (I once speculated, back at the end of the first part of "Spring-Heeled", Annie being succeeded by a new girl with etheric abilities - maybe Brinnie's daughter - to fix the matter of Brinnie being the one person in that photograph who hasn't had a major role in the story. Or Tom can further promote Paz - whose ability to talk to animals could allow her to serve as another "natural world" foil to Kat's technological expertise, if in a different way than Annie did.) |
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 14, 2015 1:24:29 GMT
Also, another defense I question is that Anthony has friends, genuine at that. But does having friends really preclude the fact that one can have serious problems, or need to receive occasional criticism?
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Apr 14, 2015 1:26:58 GMT
... something made him think he was running out of time... That is my personal opinion... Considering what we saw in-comic before Divine, I would bet that Annie spending the summer in the forest could have been the trigger. But we don't know what Anthony was doing, so there are a number things that could have happened off-comic that made him think he was out of time, or needed no more time. By the way, Annie didn't become the Forest Medium (in training) until after the events in Divine, so that could not have been the trigger for the events in Divine. Barring time travel of course. |
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Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 14, 2015 2:39:53 GMT
The thing is... Anthony sort of did leave her under someone's guardianship, or at least someone did. Anja and Donald were clearly aware that Annie was coming to the court. They were aware she was coming and could have personally greeted her and taken her in or at least approached her during that period. At the very least they were prepared to look out for her. They were willing to bring her on holiday with them, remember? It was Annie who requested to stay at the court (if only because she thought her father was coming back; not a good mark for Anthony there by the way).
Also Annie is still under the care of the court. Its not like she's been abandoned in a forest somewhere with no one to care for her... well except that time she was, but she ran off there, and it wasn't exactly a normal forest...
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 14, 2015 4:05:13 GMT
The thing is... Anthony sort of did leave her under someone's guardianship, or at least someone did. Anja and Donald were clearly aware that Annie was coming to the court. They were aware she was coming and could have personally greeted her and taken her in or at least approached her during that period. True, but is there anything to prove that they were informed by either Tony or Surma? At least as I recall, them finding out about Annie was more of a thing of luck than design. |
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Post by sapientcoffee on Apr 14, 2015 4:21:38 GMT
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Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 14, 2015 4:24:57 GMT
Well, the "student transfer" paper isn't encouraging. It looks like that's the first Anja heard of it.
On the other hand, perhaps Anthony simply didn't see the need to contact her beforehand, as she would obviously find out about it through the transfer paper.
'Cause you know, not surprising your wife's friend (and possibly your friend) with the news of her best bud's death isn't Anthony's style. On the other hand, if Anja knew Surma was dying, perhaps Anthony simply felt there was nothing for him to say. Not to mention that the nature of Surma's death and Anthony's involvement may have left him as the last person on earth to deliver that message.
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Post by bluevitriol on Apr 14, 2015 5:44:26 GMT
...and the torture doesn't stop! Neither for Annie nor for us readers. The people who compared Mr. Carver to Gendo Ikari were being unfair to Gendo. To be fair Tony is a respectable and highly intelligent member of the Court, I'm sure that getting Antimony back on track makes him happy and that makes me happy... ...but not too happy to not wang tomatoes at him. |
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 14, 2015 5:46:51 GMT
Well, the "student transfer" paper isn't encouraging. It looks like that's the first Anja heard of it. On the other hand, perhaps Anthony simply didn't see the need to contact her beforehand, as she would obviously find out about it through the transfer paper. 'Cause you know, not surprising your wife's friend (and possibly your friend) with the news of her best bud's death isn't Anthony's style. On the other hand, if Anja knew Surma was dying, perhaps Anthony simply felt there was nothing for him to say. Not to mention that the nature of Surma's death and Anthony's involvement may have left him as the last person on earth to deliver that message. Still, had he informed the Donlans about it, plus letting Annie know about would lessen any feeling of abandonment on her part if not preventing her from feeling such altogether. Though I suppose I can't call it abuse, though still a serious neglect on his part. |
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Post by arkadi on Apr 14, 2015 12:12:13 GMT
...and the torture doesn't stop! Neither for Annie nor for us readers. The people who compared Mr. Carver to Gendo Ikari were being unfair to Gendo. To be fair Tony is a respectable and highly intelligent member of the Court, I'm sure that getting Antimony back on track makes him happy and that makes me happy... ...but not too happy to not wang tomatoes at him. I concur. Let the wanging commence!! |
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Post by keef on Apr 14, 2015 13:09:13 GMT
subnote: looking back in the archives made me notice the footprints on gunnerkrigg.com/?p=23if only they were jones' footprints; that would be mind-blowing Tom said he dropped the idea he had about those paintings. Also."The point is, with Tony, the smallest things can carry the greatest weight. There are plenty of ways he could have contacted me directly. If he didn't want you involved you may never have known about it." - Donnie attempting to comfort Annie and inadvertently revealing that Anthony /could/ easily contact him (and presumably others) at court any time he wanted without Annie ever being aware that it had happened. My personal speculation is Tony only went through that charade so he could lock on to Annie. And yes, that was not a very smart way to comfort her, but that didn't matter, because she wanted to hear a positive explanation. |
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Post by siaynoq on Apr 14, 2015 13:41:31 GMT
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1261"...another creature able to control fire..." Oh no. What is he going to do through her? Or what sort of Great Work does he need her for? I have to focus on the fantasy aspects of this because the abuse is so fucking realistic, I wanted to stop reading. There's enough of that in the real world. [And in real life, there wouldn't be any coming back from this for a long time, if ever. There's no such thing as justice.] For those defending Anthony, if you abuse someone with the best of intentions, it is still abuse. racebending.tumblr.com/post/29362478976/if-you-step-on-my-foot-you-need-to-get-off-my
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Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 14, 2015 14:29:07 GMT
To be fair Tony is a respectable and highly intelligent member of the Court, I'm sure that getting Antimony back on track makes him happy and that makes me happy... ...but not too happy to not wang tomatoes at him. I concur. Let the wanging commence!! I wang people with tomatoes regardless of whether they deserve it, whether I know them or whether or not I actually have a supply of tomatoes (I substituted with my own blood once. I was in a clinic, so at least there were plenty of cookies around). |
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 14, 2015 14:50:43 GMT
...and the torture doesn't stop! Neither for Annie nor for us readers. The people who compared Mr. Carver to Gendo Ikari were being unfair to Gendo. To be fair Tony is a respectable and highly intelligent member of the Court, I'm sure that getting Antimony back on track makes him happy and that makes me happy... ...but not too happy to not wang tomatoes at him. Of course. Tomato-wanging is an ancient and important tradition. It's hard to do a proper tomato-wanging session when there's too much flinging of other substances goes on around, however.  |
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Post by goldenknots on Apr 14, 2015 16:43:01 GMT
Something that occurred to me along the way: How far away did Surma and Anthony go when they left? In other words, where is that hospital with respect to Gunnerkrigg Court? A good hike? A train-ride? Other side of the channel? I don't see where Anthony had even the slightest involvement in ensuring Antimony's welfare. She says her mother wanted her to continue ("continue"?) her education at Gunnerkrigg Court, but we have no information on how that was managed. |
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Post by eyemyself on Apr 14, 2015 16:45:39 GMT
subnote: looking back in the archives made me notice the footprints on gunnerkrigg.com/?p=23if only they were jones' footprints; that would be mind-blowing Tom said he dropped the idea he had about those paintings. Also."The point is, with Tony, the smallest things can carry the greatest weight. There are plenty of ways he could have contacted me directly. If he didn't want you involved you may never have known about it." - Donnie attempting to comfort Annie and inadvertently revealing that Anthony /could/ easily contact him (and presumably others) at court any time he wanted without Annie ever being aware that it had happened. My personal speculation is Tony only went through that charade so he could lock on to Annie. And yes, that was not a very smart way to comfort her, but that didn't matter, because she wanted to hear a positive explanation. I wanted to pull out that quote not so much for the intended, or actual, impact it was/is implied to have had on Annie at the time as for the information it gives us, the readers, about Tony and Donny. Mr. Donlan is pretty much flatly admitting that Anthony /could/ have gotten in touch with Annie at any earlier point had he wanted to and the subtext is that if Tony was in contact with him or someone else at court and didn't want Annie to know, she wouldn't. We don't know whether or not Tony communicated with Donny or anyone else at court on other occasions, but we do know that if he had Mr. Donlan has admitted that he would be willing to be complicit in keeping that information from Annie. Tom has heavily implied that Anthony made a deliberate choice to disappear from Annie's life and to leave her with no means of contacting him on her own terms. He has also given us evidence implying that Tony is and has been absolutely capable of reaching her on his terms any time he wanted to. |
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Post by goldenknots on Apr 14, 2015 16:51:14 GMT
Tom has heavily implied that Anthony made a deliberate choice to disappear from Annie's life and to leave her with no means of contacting him on her own terms. He has also given us evidence implying that Tony is and has been absolutely capable of reaching her on his terms any time he wanted to. Which, to my mind, makes it clear that he doesn't accord her any respect, or even any value beyond what she does under his control. If he's not thinking about pulling the strings, he doesn't even care, but as soon as he decides to pick them up, she'd better dance. |
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Post by eyemyself on Apr 14, 2015 17:05:07 GMT
Tom has heavily implied that Anthony made a deliberate choice to disappear from Annie's life and to leave her with no means of contacting him on her own terms. He has also given us evidence implying that Tony is and has been absolutely capable of reaching her on his terms any time he wanted to. Which, to my mind, makes it clear that he doesn't accord her any respect, or even any value beyond what she does under his control. If he's not thinking about pulling the strings, he doesn't even care, but as soon as he decides to pick them up, she'd better dance. At the very least it is an extremely uneven power dynamic whereby Anthony serves as the arbitrator of the terms of their relationship and holds exclusive, uni-lateral decision making power. If you believe that a parent's job is to help foster independence in their children and prepare them for healthy decision making as an adult Tony completely fails to fill that role with Annie. If you believe that a parent holds ultimate authority and that children should be expected to obey without question until they are adults then he seems to have this whole father thing figured out. |
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Post by keef on Apr 14, 2015 19:29:27 GMT
In other words, where is that hospital with respect to Gunnerkrigg Court? A good hike? A train-ride? Other side of the channel? GC is located in the UK, Good Hope somewhere in England. There is also a real Good Hope hospital near Birmingham. I wanted to pull out that quote not so much for the intended, or actual, impact it was/is implied to have had on Annie at the time as for the information it gives us, the readers, about T. Damn, my subtle plan to divert attention from A. Carver to A. Carver foiled. |
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Post by todd on Apr 15, 2015 2:01:32 GMT
(In this episode of Gunnerkrigg Court, the part of Katerina will be played by the Proboards Community) Though Kat's response to everything Anthony's doing not only echoes the bulk of the forum posters' response, but also helps to shape their response further in that direction. |
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wuwei
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Post by wuwei on Apr 15, 2015 4:24:33 GMT
I'm sure that most everything to be said has been said by now by someone, but some thoughts that I just had: 1) Tony may have done whatever he did in "Divine" knowing ahead of time that it would involve sacrificing his hand to create the "bone" fingers. That might explain part of why he didn't warn Annie about what he was going to do, even if he viewed it as "curing" her of being part fire elemental. Every time we've seen him in the middle of an awkward and emotionally intense situation, except for freaking out around Donny as a kid, he has reacted by clamming up and avoiding other people. That doesn't excuse the fact that he didn't give Annie a heads-up, because, obviously, she has right to know about what's being done to her mind/body, no matter how much she must seem like an immature delinquent to him. And it unnecessarily worried her and her friends when she collapsed for no reason. And not notifying the Court meant that they weren't informed enough to treat her when she collapsed. She could have fallen and hit her head, too! People, even young healthy people, actually do get seriously injured from just losing consciousness and hitting their head on the floor, as any experienced medical professional should know. And the fact that he had *just* sent a message meant that he already was willing to contact the school, and all that. But given Tony's apparent need to appear detached and in complete control of his emotions at all times, it would make sense that he would avoid talking about something that he viewed as a necessary sacrifice. Especially if he already had other reasons to not talk to Annie. 2) Donnie said that Annie's father had made sure that she was provided for. Yet that was after Annie found that she couldn't contact him, and it was insinuated that Anja didn't know about Surma's death until she saw the student transfer paper. This implies one of three things: i) This was a bit of a white lie. Tony vaguely "provided for" her by leaving her at the Court where he knew that someone would probably look after her, but didn't really arrange anything specific beyond whatever he had to do to send her there. Donnie is just covering for him and trying to make Annie feel better. Which is a "nice" thing to do, but it would be evidence that Donnie's account is maybe a bit too sympathetic toward Tony in "Microsat 5". Donnie really does seem to be the only character who will say positive things about Tony. ii) Tony made more unusual arrangements that would kick in in the case of his mysterious disappearance, in the very narrow window of time between transferring Annie and disappearing. This implies that he already had plans to leave back then, but didn't tell anyone. iii) Donnie is accidentally letting slip that he's been in contact with Tony, and that Tony wants him to make sure that Annie is provided for. Everyone else in the room just happens to not notice his little slip, or interprets his words differently (e.g. as a white lie). 3) If Tony is trying to "cure" Annie, or even just study her condition, he potentially has an ulterior motive for making her repeat year 9. Namely, it gives him an extra year to study, experiment on, or treat her at the Court, without worrying so much that she might leave after graduating. Keeping her in separate housing that he's personally arranged for a year (at least) might also help, though that's more of a stretch. 4) The Court knew about Annie starting to skip detention in year 9, and according to Tony they also knew that she was cheating in class and did nothing about that. This is pretty strange. If the Court saw her as a regular student, you would think that they would crack down on her immediately. If they saw her as an asset, but were worried about losing control of her, maybe they would be more delicate, but you'd think that they would do something pretty quickly. Instead, they let her do pretty much whatever she wants until her father decides to call her (and according to Donnie, the court must have tracked Annie for him, since that's the only way he could have expected to contact her through Jones' phone). Tony requests a bunch of medical supplies a suspiciously short time before "Divine". Then he does something to her elemental side that takes "all the fight out of her" until the procedure is disrupted. The next chapter is "The Great Secret", which Eglamore implies happens within a few weeks of "Microsat 5" and "Divine". He also suggests that the Court is suddenly starting to lose patience with Annie (and that they wouldn't have let her go to the forest that day except that Coyote requested it). Later that day Jones gives a similar warning. Then in "Changes", the Court suddenly plays their hand, rejecting Annie as the medium, trying to bar her from the forest, and asking her to give up Renard, all at the same time, and only Coyote's intervention interrupts this. Afterward they apparently go back to ignoring Annie, letting her go into the forest frequently for a few months. But now Tony shows up, working for the Court as a teacher, pulling strings to move Annie around, forbidding her from entering the forest, and again asking her to give up Renard. Now this could be simply that Tony and the Court happen to want the same things, i.e. they want Annie to "behave", they want her kept away the forest (unless she's kept "safe" and also seems like she'll execute the Court's wishes), and they want custody of Renard. However the timing is suspicious. It looks like the story goes like this. In year 7, Annie keeps Renard under control, gets him to protect her even, and gets some positive attention from Coyote, while apparently being neither sympathetic toward him nor intimidated by him. It looks to the Court like she'll follow in Surma's footsteps, being a good medium that the citizens of the forest love, while still being a good agent for the Court deep down. Then in year 8, she starts to treat Renard much more like a friend, and misbehaves a bit more, but she also does some impressive things that cause Jones to view her as a good medium candidate. But then the Court really gets nervous when Annie goes and lives in the forest for a summer. (Why does Jones say that Annie running off put "everyone at the court" in danger? Does she really think that this would cause a war between the Court and the forest, or is there some other danger we're missing?) When Annie comes back she's unruly, she ditches detention, and her cheating is potentially being noticed by then. Suddenly, she's not an asset to the Court, at least not unless the Court can get her to become obedient again. So the Court backs off while her father tries to do something to inhibit her wild side. That fails due to Zimmy. So her father recovers, while the court tries to isolate Annie from any connections to the forest, which they are now concerned might be used against them, rather than in their favor. That plan fails due to Coyote. So then Tony shows up in person, as an employee of the Court, and with the Court bureaucracy's assistance, and he attempts to isolate Annie from her classmates, Renard, and everything in the forest. Thus it looks like Tony and the Court bureaucracy are colluding to come up with one approach after another to try to keep Annie on their "side", or at least to keep her away from the political situation as much as possible if there's the slightest chance that she might put the forest before the Court. When she was the Coyote's medium, the Court probably didn't dare to tell Coyote that she was disallowed from entering the forest. (Coyote may be just an animal to them, but he's a very dangerous one.) Since Annie was an unruly "orphan" who might run away to the forest at any moment, with Coyote's blessing, the Court had no leverage to force her to give up Renard, or to obey them or behave in any other way. But now, if her father can put enough pressure on her, or make her feel like she has no choice, she might be induced to "voluntarily" resign as the forest medium, and he's also pressuring her to give up Renard. The timing and nature of his actions is suspiciously convenient for the Court, and to me suggests some close connection. |
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 15, 2015 4:40:07 GMT
Spoilered for length: I'm sure that most everything to be said has been said by now by someone, but some thoughts that I just had: 1) Tony may have done whatever he did in "Divine" knowing ahead of time that it would involve sacrificing his hand to create the "bone" fingers. That might explain part of why he didn't warn Annie about what he was going to do, even if he viewed it as "curing" her of being part fire elemental. Every time we've seen him in the middle of an awkward and emotionally intense situation, except for freaking out around Donny as a kid, he has reacted by clamming up and avoiding other people. That doesn't excuse the fact that he didn't give Annie a heads-up, because, obviously, she has right to know about what's being done to her mind/body, no matter how much she must seem like an immature delinquent to him. And it unnecessarily worried her and her friends when she collapsed for no reason. And not notifying the Court meant that they weren't informed enough to treat her when she collapsed. She could have fallen and hit her head, too! People, even young healthy people, actually do get seriously injured from just losing consciousness and hitting their head on the floor, as any experienced medical professional should know. And the fact that he had *just* sent a message meant that he already was willing to contact the school, and all that. But given Tony's apparent need to appear detached and in complete control of his emotions at all times, it would make sense that he would avoid talking about something that he viewed as a necessary sacrifice. Especially if he already had other reasons to not talk to Annie. 2) Donnie said that Annie's father had made sure that she was provided for. Yet that was after Annie found that she couldn't contact him, and it was insinuated that Anja didn't know about Surma's death until she saw the student transfer paper. This implies one of three things: i) This was a bit of a white lie. Tony vaguely "provided for" her by leaving her at the Court where he knew that someone would probably look after her, but didn't really arrange anything specific beyond whatever he had to do to send her there. Donnie is just covering for him and trying to make Annie feel better. Which is a "nice" thing to do, but it would be evidence that Donnie's account is maybe a bit too sympathetic toward Tony in "Microsat 5". Donnie really does seem to be the only character who will say positive things about Tony. ii) Tony made more unusual arrangements that would kick in in the case of his mysterious disappearance, in the very narrow window of time between transferring Annie and disappearing. This implies that he already had plans to leave back then, but didn't tell anyone. iii) Donnie is accidentally letting slip that he's been in contact with Tony, and that Tony wants him to make sure that Annie is provided for. Everyone else in the room just happens to not notice his little slip, or interprets his words differently (e.g. as a white lie). 3) If Tony is trying to "cure" Annie, or even just study her condition, he potentially has an ulterior motive for making her repeat year 9. Namely, it gives him an extra year to study, experiment on, or treat her at the Court, without worrying so much that she might leave after graduating. Keeping her in separate housing that he's personally arranged for a year (at least) might also help, though that's more of a stretch. 4) The Court knew about Annie starting to skip detention in year 9, and according to Tony they also knew that she was cheating in class and did nothing about that. This is pretty strange. If the Court saw her as a regular student, you would think that they would crack down on her immediately. If they saw her as an asset, but were worried about losing control of her, maybe they would be more delicate, but you'd think that they would do something pretty quickly. Instead, they let her do pretty much whatever she wants until her father decides to call her (and according to Donnie, the court must have tracked Annie for him, since that's the only way he could have expected to contact her through Jones' phone). Tony requests a bunch of medical supplies a suspiciously short time before "Divine". Then he does something to her elemental side that takes "all the fight out of her" until the procedure is disrupted. The next chapter is "The Great Secret", which Eglamore implies happens within a few weeks of "Microsat 5" and "Divine". He also suggests that the Court is suddenly starting to lose patience with Annie (and that they wouldn't have let her go to the forest that day except that Coyote requested it). Later that day Jones gives a similar warning. Then in "Changes", the Court suddenly plays their hand, rejecting Annie as the medium, trying to bar her from the forest, and asking her to give up Renard, all at the same time, and only Coyote's intervention interrupts this. Afterward they apparently go back to ignoring Annie, letting her go into the forest frequently for a few months. But now Tony shows up, working for the Court as a teacher, pulling strings to move Annie around, forbidding her from entering the forest, and again asking her to give up Renard. Now this could be simply that Tony and the Court happen to want the same things, i.e. they want Annie to "behave", they want her kept away the forest (unless she's kept "safe" and also seems like she'll execute the Court's wishes), and they want custody of Renard. However the timing is suspicious. It looks like the story goes like this. In year 7, Annie keeps Renard under control, gets him to protect her even, and gets some positive attention from Coyote, while apparently being neither sympathetic toward him nor intimidated by him. It looks to the Court like she'll follow in Surma's footsteps, being a good medium that the citizens of the forest love, while still being a good agent for the Court deep down. Then in year 8, she starts to treat Renard much more like a friend, and misbehaves a bit more, but she also does some impressive things that cause Jones to view her as a good medium candidate. But then the Court really gets nervous when Annie goes and lives in the forest for a summer. (Why does Jones say that Annie running off put "everyone at the court" in danger? Does she really think that this would cause a war between the Court and the forest, or is there some other danger we're missing?) When Annie comes back she's unruly, she ditches detention, and her cheating is potentially being noticed by then. Suddenly, she's not an asset to the Court, at least not unless the Court can get her to become obedient again. So the Court backs off while her father tries to do something to inhibit her wild side. That fails due to Zimmy. So her father recovers, while the court tries to isolate Annie from any connections to the forest, which they are now concerned might be used against them, rather than in their favor. That plan fails due to Coyote. So then Tony shows up in person, as an employee of the Court, and with the Court bureaucracy's assistance, and he attempts to isolate Annie from her classmates, Renard, and everything in the forest. Thus it looks like Tony and the Court bureaucracy are colluding to come up with one approach after another to try to keep Annie on their "side", or at least to keep her away from the political situation as much as possible if there's the slightest chance that she might put the forest before the Court. When she was the Coyote's medium, the Court probably didn't dare to tell Coyote that she was disallowed from entering the forest. (Coyote may be just an animal to them, but he's a very dangerous one.) Since Annie was an unruly "orphan" who might run away to the forest at any moment, with Coyote's blessing, the Court had no leverage to force her to give up Renard, or to obey them or behave in any other way. But now, if her father can put enough pressure on her, or make her feel like she has no choice, she might be induced to "voluntarily" resign as the forest medium, and he's also pressuring her to give up Renard. The timing and nature of his actions is suspiciously convenient for the Court, and to me suggests some close connection. Although I doubt this is all of the story (there are always secrets within secrets at the Court), this is the most reasonable explanation of Anthony's actions I've seen from anyone. Until further information is given, this is my current assumption. Still doesn't justify Anthony's actions on a moral plane, though. Why did Anthony take away so much from Annie, though? The makeup and returning her to year 9 seem odd since they're unconnected to the Forest/Court schism, but perhaps Anthony just plans to break her emotionally to make her amenable to his will. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Apr 15, 2015 6:13:43 GMT
I'm sure that most everything to be said has been said by now by someone, but some thoughts that I just had: This is good stuff. Some things don't quite fit, though. In particular, why the coded message in Microsat 5? Why the secrecy? If he was colluding with the Court at that point, there'd be no need for it, nor would he have to steal supplies. He could just go straight to the Court and say "I need X, Y, and Z". Some of their goals might be aligned, but I doubt that they were working together that far back. It's possible that the Court called him and said "you need to come and get control of your daughter" and given him carte blanche on how exactly to go about doing that, but I think that is the extent of any collusion between them. Whatever "research" Anthony is doing with Antimony, he doesn't want the Court to know about it. |
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Post by gunnerwf on Apr 15, 2015 6:42:12 GMT
One thing that is curious to me is that the court didn't want Antimony as the Forest Medium. There would be some benefit to her having the position as forest medium.
She would be more friendly and fair to the court than Ysengrin, she isn't likely to do Ysengrin's seed attack for example. For the concerns about her getting closer to the forest, it wouldn't be that bad actually. Even if she get's closer to the forest she isn't going to be like Ysengrin levels of hatred towards the court.
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