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Post by pxc on Apr 13, 2015 15:44:35 GMT
He might have gotten it crushed by accident or stuck somewhere with no way out but cutting it off, or maybe he traded it for etherical knowledge that he needed. I think that the curse Coyote put on Antimony's hand disbanded when she got back from summer, but I could be wrong. Take a close look at page 1041 again. Those bones are an etheric projection of his hand. That is him doing an etheric surgery on Antimony. The likely explanation here is that he loses his hand as result of Zimmy interrupting this procedure. Either the hand gets severed when the link is severed (becuase it's still "inside" her), or that fire spirit that he is (probably) trying to cut out ends up burning it, or there is some similar mishap. From that perspective, it looks like Anthony found out that there's nothing to remove. It's who she is. Removing the fire spirit means killing her. Which makes sense. When it moves from mother to daughter the mother dies. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Apr 13, 2015 16:06:43 GMT
This remind me of an early page where Kat cried on Annie's behalf and Annie remained relatively stoic. Remember when Annie was a good student? Man, that was a long time ago.  Do we actually know that she was ever a good student? Her cheating started her first year there. And the only evidence we have of her doing well in a class on her own is that example you cite, which I assume is in history since they were discussing the origins of mythology. |
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Post by arkadi on Apr 13, 2015 16:08:00 GMT
...and the torture doesn't stop! Neither for Annie nor for us readers. The people who compared Mr. Carver to Gendo Ikari were being unfair to Gendo.
Rage and frustration aside, am I the only one who thinks Annie is being way too passive before dad's onslaught? Like, suspiciously so? I found it really hard to believe that she wouldn't snap even when Carver decided to take Reynardine away from her. Looking back at the Annie we know and love, the way she's taken all of Carver's bullshit seems absurdly out of character. She should have reacted at some point.
And before someone starts on how Annie has been projecting stuff on her missing father and all the other psychological consequences of her growing up separated from him -yeah, even taking all that into account, it just doesn't seem right for her to take all that crap without putting up the slightest semblance of a fight, without trying to stand up for herself even once.
Guys, I think we were wrong about the Divine incident. I think Dad Carver did succeed at messing with his little girl's brain/soul/whatever before Zimmy stepped in and cut him off, and we're seeing the results of it.
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Post by Sky Schemer on Apr 13, 2015 16:13:45 GMT
Rage and frustration aside, am I the only one who thinks Annie is being way too passive before dad's onslaught? Like, suspiciously so? I found it really hard to believe that she wouldn't snap even when Carver decided to take Reynardine away from her. Looking back at the Annie we know and love, the way she's taken all of Carver's bullshit seems absurdly out of character. She should have reacted at some point. The thought had occurred to me but I think the initial reaction was a genuine overwhelming shock. What we are seeing now, though, after time has set in could be either one. But, based on what she was starting to say before Kat cut her off, it does appear that she's in "make excuses for dad mode" which would imply that she's been figuratively beaten into submission. For the time being, anyway. Well, she still has the fire spirit in her, so whatever he did has not rid her of that. I hypothesized earlier that the timing of this coincides with when she started becoming "unruly" as Jones put it, which could mean that the interrupted surgery actually made things worse. |
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Post by csj on Apr 13, 2015 16:16:46 GMT
Remember when Annie was a good student? Man, that was a long time ago. Do we actually know that she was ever a good student? Her cheating started her first year there. And the only evidence we have of her doing well in a class on her own is that example you cite, which I assume is in history since they were discussing the origins of mythology. It's stated that she spent most of her time in the library before becoming friends with Kat. While that doesn't necessarily make her a good student, it does imply a reasonable work ethic, which she didn't really build on. Perhaps, this had something to do with the gradual erosion of Tony's influence on her. Perhaps it was due to constantly getting involved with shenanigans of one kind or another ever since. Perhaps she was just too easily distracted and refused to learn about things she didn't find interesting. We can't really tell due to the time compression that happens in things like webcomics, and not knowing enough details. In any case, she was effectively home-schooled, and that style of upbringing would have an effect. Those mentioning the importance of the tree at the title page of this chapter might find this page interesting. The tree plays an important part in their relationship because it is the first time Annie is open about her feelings regarding her parents to anyone, ever. The first time we actually see repressed sadness make its way to the surface. If Anthony had some measure of etheric control over Annie's emotional state prior to that moment, then who knows; that could be the first step towards the undoing of that control, which may have led to a knee-jerk response and later arrival. Annie is a living reminder of his wife's death, so I believe his being around Annie could be a lot harder than we may realise. |
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Post by pxc on Apr 13, 2015 16:19:43 GMT
...and the torture doesn't stop! Neither for Annie nor for us readers. The people who compared Mr. Carver to Gendo Ikari were being unfair to Gendo. Rage and frustration aside, am I the only one who thinks Annie is being way too passive before dad's onslaught? Like, suspiciously so? I found it really hard to believe that she wouldn't snap even when Carver decided to take Reynardine away from her. Looking back at the Annie we know and love, the way she's taken all of Carver's bullshit seems absurdly out of character. She should have reacted at some point. And before someone starts on how Annie has been projecting stuff on her missing father and all the other psychological consequences of her growing up separated from him -yeah, even taking all that into account, it just doesn't seem right for her to take all that crap without putting up the slightest semblance of a fight, without trying to stand up for herself even once. Guys, I think we were wrong about the Divine incident. I think Dad Carver did succeed at messing with his little girl's brain/soul/whatever before Zimmy stepped in and cut him off, and we're seeing the results of it. Look at how hopeful she is here:  After years of zero physical contact and just one very short and impersonal phone call, she's still bouncing on her toes and grinning like an idiot because her dad is back. She wasn't etherically unhinged, just the normal kind that comes from desperately wanting love and affection from her father but rarely, if ever, getting it. Coupled with the parent that DOES love her and give her affection affirming that it is good for her to continue to expect that love from her father, and indeed even affirming that the love is there and abundant, but that it's just hard to understand, because he's a quiet man that has important work to do. |
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Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 13, 2015 16:22:53 GMT
Gendo put his son in the cockpit of a mecha and pitted him against the apocalypse and used emotional abuse to keep him aimed at the enemy. Anthony hasn't made Annie into a child soldier yet.
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Post by nero on Apr 13, 2015 16:43:56 GMT
Well, Kat lightened the atmosphere a little. Still I wish Annie would see that if Kat is crying just looking at her then something is wrong with her relationship with Anthony.
I'm still waiting anxiously for the adults to appear and take action or at least explain why and when Anthony came to the Court.
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Post by Refugee on Apr 13, 2015 16:58:50 GMT
Ah, yes. The victim denies she's being abused. Proof, absolute inviolable proof, that she is in fact being abused. Thing is, while victims often do defend their abusers, people who are not being abused will also deny they are being abused, and will defend the suspect. Worse, non abused children can easily be led by careless or malignant interrogators into believing that they have been abused--see the satanic cult scare of a few decades ago. === Also, folks, when you go to comfort someone, trying listening to them first, and don't put them in the position of comforting you. Certainly don't force your expectations on them right away. === This strip, where Annie explains to Kat how she came to the Court, makes several points relevant here: First, Annie spent most of her time with her Mom, who taught her as much as she could. Later we see Annie has a bed right next to her Mom's. Second, it was Surma, not Anthony, who enrolled Annie in the Court's school. Third, Annie's makeup is her Mother's, as we see from other strips involving Surma. Fourth, there's a strip showing Mrs. Donlan weeping over the announcement that Annie will be a new student at the court. She knows, apparently, that this means that Surma has died. And she suggests that Kat might like to make friends with the new girl. In other words, no, Annie didn't just happen to meet Kat and the Donlans, or even Eglamore. When she came to the Court, there were adults there that knew Surma and Anthony, and could be trusted to take care of their daughter. Which is to say, Surma had far more influence over Annie than Anthony did. Anthony's been accused of child neglect for abandoning her; no, that would be Surma, if anyone. As someone else mentioned, Annie is not the only student who lives at the Court. Again, given what I know about him, I do not like Anthony. I hope that I would do a...warmer father than he has been. But I don't know everything, and I don't see much here that goes beyond an appropriate response to Annie's long term pattern of cheating. His treatment of her does not amount to abuse. Neglect is out of the question, certainly according to the British law that's been quoted. It doesn't look like he's forbidden Annie to have friends, or even keep the ones she already has. She simply won't be attending class or living with them. My guess is that she will be free to visit them (given that she let's Kat and Paz that she's coming over), and they will be free to visit her. Coyote's response remains to be seen. Renard's likewise. Waiting is. |
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Post by guitarminotaur on Apr 13, 2015 17:03:24 GMT
I'm really not willing to bet on any horses here.
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Post by arkadi on Apr 13, 2015 17:08:51 GMT
Gendo put his son in the cockpit of a mecha and pitted him against the apocalypse and used emotional abuse to keep him aimed at the enemy. Anthony hasn't made Annie into a child soldier yet. The GK world isn't under attack from giant eldritch abominations from outer space yet. Also, it took Gendo a few chapters to heap upon Shinji the amount of emotional abuse that Carver has dealt out in ten freaking pages. I'd say Carver is ahead in the Worst Dad game. Then again, Gendo didn't need to crush his son's spirit, because it was already crushed: Shinji started out pretty much the way Annie is right now. It's entirely possible that Mr. Ikari would have been as much of a jerk from the start as Carver has been if Shinji hadn't been an easy target. So yeah, maybe I exaggerated a bit. Well, she still has the fire spirit in her, so whatever he did has not rid her of that. I hypothesized earlier that the timing of this coincides with when she started becoming "unruly" as Jones put it, which could mean that the interrupted surgery actually made things worse. What I suspect is that he managed to plant some kind of etheric mind control program in her, and his coming back to the Court activated it. Annie's daddy issues did the rest. |
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Post by Knight on Apr 13, 2015 17:37:21 GMT
Poor Kat.
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Post by Refugee on Apr 13, 2015 17:45:02 GMT
Sudden thought:
Zimmy used Annie's etheric "bones" as a kind of conveyer to Anthony. Perhaps he didn't send them down to attack the elemental, but rather, the elemental is their source, as it seems to the source of the mask.
And then Zimmy uses them to attack Anthony; that attack may well be the source of his scars, including his broken nose.
Think about that: much of what Anthony is doing might arguably be justified because an attack against him originated from his daughter. That would bring me home right soon to investigate.
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jocobo
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Post by jocobo on Apr 13, 2015 17:51:48 GMT
Ah, yes. The victim denies she's being abused. Proof, absolute inviolable proof, that she is in fact being abused. Thing is, while victims often do defend their abusers, people who are not being abused will also deny they are being abused, and will defend the suspect. Worse, non abused children can easily be led by careless or malignant interrogators into believing that they have been abused--see the satanic cult scare of a few decades ago. === Also, folks, when you go to comfort someone, trying listening to them first, and don't put them in the position of comforting you. Certainly don't force your expectations on them right away. === This strip, where Annie explains to Kat how she came to the Court, makes several points relevant here: First, Annie spent most of her time with her Mom, who taught her as much as she could. Later we see Annie has a bed right next to her Mom's. Second, it was Surma, not Anthony, who enrolled Annie in the Court's school. Third, Annie's makeup is her Mother's, as we see from other strips involving Surma. Fourth, there's a strip showing Mrs. Donlan weeping over the announcement that Annie will be a new student at the court. She knows, apparently, that this means that Surma has died. And she suggests that Kat might like to make friends with the new girl. In other words, no, Annie didn't just happen to meet Kat and the Donlans, or even Eglamore. When she came to the Court, there were adults there that knew Surma and Anthony, and could be trusted to take care of their daughter. Which is to say, Surma had far more influence over Annie than Anthony did. Anthony's been accused of child neglect for abandoning her; no, that would be Surma, if anyone. As someone else mentioned, Annie is not the only student who lives at the Court. Again, given what I know about him, I do not like Anthony. I hope that I would do a...warmer father than he has been. But I don't know everything, and I don't see much here that goes beyond an appropriate response to Annie's long term pattern of cheating. His treatment of her does not amount to abuse. Neglect is out of the question, certainly according to the British law that's been quoted. It doesn't look like he's forbidden Annie to have friends, or even keep the ones she already has. She simply won't be attending class or living with them. My guess is that she will be free to visit them (given that she let's Kat and Paz that she's coming over), and they will be free to visit her. Coyote's response remains to be seen. Renard's likewise. Waiting is. Regardless of who did most of the parenting when Surma was alive, Annie became primarily Anthony's responsibility when she died. So It doesn't really matter if Annie spent most of her time with Surma of if Surma did the enrollment. She died, Anthony became primary caretaker and therefor had executive control on all of those matters. Dying while being a child's primary care giver isn't neglect and I think it is really stretching the bounds of reasonable guilt to say Surma is guilty of neglect by dying of terminal etheric conditions. And his idea of executive control was to not speak with, guide, interact with, encourage, support, scold, direct punish or any other form of parenting in over 2 years. That's why Anthony gets accused of abandonment. He did not in any noticeable form function as a parent during those 2 years. He had exactly 2 noted interactions with her during that space. 1 was a phone call in which he used her as a tape recorder and may or may not have even been meant for her ears. Jones has total recall and could have also served in carrying the message perfectly and it was Jones phone he called. The other was that time he put her in a coma when eh decided to try and surgically operate on her via the ether without her knowledge or consent. Which is frankly the evilest thing I think he's done. Operating on someone without their knowledge is one of the vilest, creepiest and frankly disgusting moral violations I can think of. I don't care if it was going to be life-having. She had a right to know someone was going to be poking around in her essence. As for what is and what is not an appropriate response to Annie's cheating: had he actually been in her life in some fashion to monitor her behavior, it might not have been so long term. And he had be been there to function in his role as parent, the situation might not have spiraled so far. A child or teen is very much a product of their environs and Anthony has not helped in that regard. Why do people always leave out the 2 years of no contact and ninja!surgery when evaluating Anthony? |
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Post by pxc on Apr 13, 2015 17:52:18 GMT
Can someone more chronologically aware tell me how much time has passed in-comic from the events of Divine to now?
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Post by Refugee on Apr 13, 2015 18:12:12 GMT
Operating on someone without their knowledge is one of the vilest, creepiest and frankly disgusting moral violations I can think of. I don't care if it was going to be life-having. She had a right to know someone was going to be poking around in her essence. We do not know that he did this. I originally proposed emergency etheric "surgery" as a possible reason for why Anthony might have caused Annie to go into the equivalent of a medical coma, a kind of anesthesia. We don't even know that he's the one responsible for her coma; that was something people just assumed. The idea that Anthony did it for medical reasons was merest speculation on my part, not intended as a serious suggestion; now it is being taken as something near canon, and I wish I hadn't said anything about it. Except that it confirms to me that many here, and I'm not naming names, will take anything that Anthony does, no matter the reason, as evidence of abuse or neglect. *blink* We do? It's been much discussed here, and those of us who don't want to see a mob hanging have suggested that he might well be gone on the equivalent of intelligence or military work. In fact, though, we just don't know. I wish Kat had shut the hell up, so we could hear what Annie has to say. I agree, fully, with someone's comment that Tom is having her stand in for the forum crowd-- so busy defending her that she can't be bothered to hear the whole story. |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 13, 2015 18:15:39 GMT
I mean, I can't be the only one here who's read "The Oxbow Incident", or watched Twelve Angry Men, or read and watched To Kill a Mockingbird, can I?
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 13, 2015 18:24:46 GMT
Second, it was Surma, not Anthony, who enrolled Annie in the Court's school. Fourth, there's a strip showing Mrs. Donlan weeping over the announcement that Annie will be a new student at the court. She knows, apparently, that this means that Surma has died. And she suggests that Kat might like to make friends with the new girl. In other words, no, Annie didn't just happen to meet Kat and the Donlans, or even Eglamore. When she came to the Court, there were adults there that knew Surma and Anthony, and could be trusted to take care of their daughter. 2. And this is where I feel that some of you aren't listening carefully in regards to the whole abandonment claim. Sending her to a place like The Court isn't why myself and others claim Anthony abandoned her. The claim is based on the reasoning that he didn't provide her a means to contact him or giving her contact info to any friends, nor did he seek to spend time with her as Kat's parents spend time with their daughter when the students are on break. 4. Yeah, in the strip you're talking about she only seems to be discovering Annie's arrival at that time, meaning that Anthony didn't think to inform her or Don about his daughter coming to The Court. Now if Anthony: A. Made it a point to keep in contact with Annie and even spend time with her when classes are out of session, or... B. Not only informed the Donlans about Annie coming to The Court and telling Annie ahead of time that several of his friends will be there and that they have a daughter her age for her to spend time with. Then I would agree that he didn't abandon her. But as far as canon goes, he sent her to a distant place for her education without a means to contact him. He never spent time with her when classes were out for a lengthy period of time, nor did he arrange for anyone else to care for her in his stead. And even if it was Surma's idea to send her to The Court, I imagine she would expect Anthony to still keep in contact with Annie. Yeah and I've stated that if a parent is detained or unable to be with their children, they usually try to find some trusted family member or friend(s) to be there to care for their child. Still haven't seen a legit reason why Anthony couldn't even do that. |
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jocobo
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Post by jocobo on Apr 13, 2015 18:37:46 GMT
Operating on someone without their knowledge is one of the vilest, creepiest and frankly disgusting moral violations I can think of. I don't care if it was going to be life-having. She had a right to know someone was going to be poking around in her essence. We do not know that he did this. I originally proposed emergency etheric "surgery" as a possible reason for why Anthony might have caused Annie to go into the equivalent of a medical coma, a kind of anesthesia. We don't even know that he's the one responsible for her coma; that was something people just assumed. The idea that Anthony did it for medical reasons was merest speculation on my part, not intended as a serious suggestion; now it is being taken as something near canon, and I wish I hadn't said anything about it. Except that it confirms to me that many here, and I'm not naming names, will take anything that Anthony does, no matter the reason, as evidence of abuse or neglect. *blink* We do? It's been much discussed here, and those of us who don't want to see a mob hanging have suggested that he might well be gone on the equivalent of intelligence or military work. In fact, though, we just don't know. I wish Kat had shut the hell up, so we could hear what Annie has to say. I agree, fully, with someone's comment that Tom is having her stand in for the forum crowd-- so busy defending her that she can't be bothered to hear the whole story. Anthony was doing something to her without her knowledge or consent. Evidence points that it was something tampering with her essence. At the very least, he indeed was connected to her etheric state via the "bone-fingers". Which, if it was done without her permission, was wrong and casts incredible shades of doubt on him as a character, as a person and as a father. As for him being on military or intelligence work, there's no real evidence of that that I am aware of. Did I miss a non-obvious hint that he was involved in clandestine operations or is it just wild conjecture? (I'm really asking here, that's not sarcasm. I came to the comic late and might have missed something while speed-reading) I mean, yes, he might have been held hostage by a drug cartel in Columbia for the last 2 years, performing forced surgeries on the cartel lord, all the while desperately seeking escape. It'd certainly give him a reason to be absent and not to call. But I don't have evidence to back that up. Therefor there is no reason to presume that to be the case. Yes, I have read To Kill a Mockingbird. But I am no juror and this is no criminal court case and as such doesn't not carry the same standard of evidence. It's not even a civil court case, which carries even looser standards of evidence. It's not a court case at all. The bounds of reasonable doubt are therefor adjusted accordingly. (Note, I say this from an American legal perspective, while acknowledging the UK might have a differing standard of evidence system). But since people insist on giving him the same level of doubt as if this was a court case, we can treat it as such. But if we do, we can only go off of what we know. We cannot create excuses for him that haven't been concretely given. We can only rule on the established evidence. The established evidence thus far is that he went over 2 years without contacting his daughter and he has no stated excuse for it. |
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Post by aline on Apr 13, 2015 18:45:47 GMT
Do we actually know that she was ever a good student? Her cheating started her first year there. And the only evidence we have of her doing well in a class on her own is that example you cite, which I assume is in history since they were discussing the origins of mythology. It's stated that she spent most of her time in the library before becoming friends with Kat. While that doesn't necessarily make her a good student, it does imply a reasonable work ethic, which she didn't really build on. Perhaps, this had something to do with the gradual erosion of Tony's influence on her. Perhaps it was due to constantly getting involved with shenanigans of one kind or another ever since. Perhaps she was just too easily distracted and refused to learn about things she didn't find interesting. We can't really tell due to the time compression that happens in things like webcomics, and not knowing enough details. When she meets Kat she starts going to the playground instead of the library. It would quite normal for a quiet kid who doesn't have friends to hide their loneliness in the library. Since meeting Kat (her second week at GC) library habits disappeared so we can assume it had indeed something to do with the lack of company. |
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Post by aline on Apr 13, 2015 19:12:34 GMT
Can someone more chronologically aware tell me how much time has passed in-comic from the events of Divine to now? Somewhere around 10-9 months I guess, give or take a few months? Divine is during year 9, some time after the end of summer holidays, the kids already have their winter uniforms on but people don't seem to be too cold outside. So I'd pin it in autumn. Right now they are just beginning class so it should be late summer early autumn. He might have been planning his come back since then. |
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Post by ▒▓│Walkman│▓▒ on Apr 13, 2015 19:55:38 GMT
Saw a really interesting comment:
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Post by eyemyself on Apr 13, 2015 20:13:29 GMT
"The day after Reynardine broke the ceiling in our dorm, I tried to call him at my hospital. To tell him I'd been hurt. They said he didn't work there anymore, and they didn't know how to contact him. He left and didn't tell me." - Annie explaining how she discovered her father had left Good Hope and that she had no way to contact him mere months after her mother died and she started at a new school where she knew no one and had yet to learn that they knew her parents."The point is, with Tony, the smallest things can carry the greatest weight. There are plenty of ways he could have contacted me directly. If he didn't want you involved you may never have known about it." - Donnie attempting to comfort Annie and inadvertently revealing that Anthony /could/ easily contact him (and presumably others) at court any time he wanted without Annie ever being aware that it had happened. |
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Post by pendell on Apr 13, 2015 20:16:56 GMT
Being on intelligence or military work does not need to contradict being an emotionally cold human being. Mr. Carver gives me an Arthur Turing vibe; a highly intelligent person who nonetheless cannot deal with other humans emotionally.
Being away on that kind of work is a reason to be missing for multiple years. It's not a reason to step back into your daughter's life suddenly, humiliate her, then cut away every support network she has.
That's deliberate. The fact that the court has not done anything about it implies that Mr. Carver (or is it Dr. Carver?) is doing their bidding. Willingly perhaps, but it's just as likely he's a dupe -- the Court carefully fed selected information to him because they knew this would be his reaction, all in the name of cutting Annie off from the Forest.
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Post by ninjaraven on Apr 13, 2015 20:28:40 GMT
Anthony was doing something to her without her knowledge or consent. Evidence points that it was something tampering with her essence. At the very least, he indeed was connected to her etheric state via the "bone-fingers". Which, if it was done without her permission, was wrong and casts incredible shades of doubt on him as a character, as a person and as a father. As for him being on military or intelligence work, there's no real evidence of that that I am aware of. Did I miss a non-obvious hint that he was involved in clandestine operations or is it just wild conjecture? (I'm really asking here, that's not sarcasm. I came to the comic late and might have missed something while speed-reading) I mean, yes, he might have been held hostage by a drug cartel in Columbia for the last 2 years, performing forced surgeries on the cartel lord, all the while desperately seeking escape. It'd certainly give him a reason to be absent and not to call. But I don't have evidence to back that up. Therefor there is no reason to presume that to be the case. Yes, I have read To Kill a Mockingbird. But I am no juror and this is no criminal court case and as such doesn't not carry the same standard of evidence. It's not even a civil court case, which carries even looser standards of evidence. It's not a court case at all. The bounds of reasonable doubt are therefor adjusted accordingly. (Note, I say this from an American legal perspective, while acknowledging the UK might have a differing standard of evidence system). But since people insist on giving him the same level of doubt as if this was a court case, we can treat it as such. But if we do, we can only go off of what we know. We cannot create excuses for him that haven't been concretely given. We can only rule on the established evidence. The established evidence thus far is that he went over 2 years without contacting his daughter and he has no stated excuse for it. Anthony is still her legal guardian; he is legally able to sign off on medical procedures without Annie's consent, because she isn't yet of age. And we know that Annie has an potentially terminal illness regarding her etheric side. The etheric procedure it may have been "without consent", but if Tony was trying some form of etheric surgery with the intent of saving his daughter's life, then it's not really different than any other parent who puts their kid through chemo for cancer, or bone transplants for leukemia - painful and unhappy, but the end goal is for the child's sake. And he may not have asked Annie because he did not want to bring up the rather tender topic of the nature of Surma's death and all that it implies. Thing is, we're not sure what was going on - or even what connections Tony had to it. And that's just it - we don't know. We don't know what Tony's been up to for the last 3 years. We don't know what brought him back to the Court. We don't know why he's said the things he's said to Annie. We have virtually zero knowledge of this man. And yet despite this, he has cast a long shadow over Annie and the comic. And so, we're not exactly sure of what to make of him (save those who have already decided he was Gendo Ikari's mentor). People have presented arguments both for and against Tony's long absence and harsh treatment of Annie upon reappearing, but as to what has been truly going on lies with Tom and Tom alone. There are valid reasons for parents to be gone for multiple years without contact. Until we are told, we can only speculate. One more thing to think about: Annie came to the Court with a fairly strong sense of identity, able to speak her mind to adults and teachers (and able to refuse them Rey quite bluntly, even in year 9). If Tony was truly habitually authoritarian, I doubt Annie would've been able to do so, because if she was abused, she likely would've transferred her father's authoritarianism over to the members of the Court (Jimmy-Jims, the Donlans, etc.) and would not have refused them Renyardine's custody for fear of punishment. PPS: What happened to Brinnie? Six friends there were, three we met early, one stood long in absentia, one in the grave... what happened to her? |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Apr 13, 2015 20:29:04 GMT
Being on intelligence or military work does not need to contradict being an emotionally cold human being. Mr. Carver gives me an Arthur Turing vibe; a highly intelligent person who nonetheless cannot deal with other humans emotionally. I wouldn't go that far. He had friends in school, people who genuinely liked him. And Surma saw something in him, and had a child with him. I think it's more accurate to say that Surma's death has traumatized him, and he is now solely focused on his goal--whatever that may be--to the detriment of all else. |
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Post by Purgatorius on Apr 13, 2015 20:52:18 GMT
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Post by stclair on Apr 13, 2015 21:21:42 GMT
1501:
"Miss Donlan, I have decided that it is best if my daughter does not associate with you further. Will you leave, or shall I have Renard escort you out?"
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 13, 2015 21:26:01 GMT
And he may not have asked Annie because he did not want to bring up the rather tender topic of the nature of Surma's death. Leave her in a place for several years, without any contact number* which results in her possibly being alone if the Donlans or James hadn't taken notice of her, but all of a sudden he cares about how she'll feel. Yes, we can only speculate, but there seems to be a double standard that we shouldn't be allowed to be critical of him until all of his life is known, but it's okay to assume that he's some misunderstood saint. *And if anyone wants to defend Anthony, please, explain why he couldn't put Annie in the custody of a trusted friend or at the very least telling said friend about her arriving at the court, as well as letting Annie know of said friend. I don't see any other reason to avoid this question unless, perhaps there's no way to answer it in a fashion which makes Anthony look good. Only reason I got before hand is that Anthony was too proud to admit that he couldn't handle raising a child, but that reason would suggest that he values his own pride over his daughter's wellbeing. |
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jocobo
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by jocobo on Apr 13, 2015 21:37:21 GMT
Anthony was doing something to her without her knowledge or consent. Evidence points that it was something tampering with her essence. At the very least, he indeed was connected to her etheric state via the "bone-fingers". Which, if it was done without her permission, was wrong and casts incredible shades of doubt on him as a character, as a person and as a father. As for him being on military or intelligence work, there's no real evidence of that that I am aware of. Did I miss a non-obvious hint that he was involved in clandestine operations or is it just wild conjecture? (I'm really asking here, that's not sarcasm. I came to the comic late and might have missed something while speed-reading) I mean, yes, he might have been held hostage by a drug cartel in Columbia for the last 2 years, performing forced surgeries on the cartel lord, all the while desperately seeking escape. It'd certainly give him a reason to be absent and not to call. But I don't have evidence to back that up. Therefor there is no reason to presume that to be the case. Yes, I have read To Kill a Mockingbird. But I am no juror and this is no criminal court case and as such doesn't not carry the same standard of evidence. It's not even a civil court case, which carries even looser standards of evidence. It's not a court case at all. The bounds of reasonable doubt are therefor adjusted accordingly. (Note, I say this from an American legal perspective, while acknowledging the UK might have a differing standard of evidence system). But since people insist on giving him the same level of doubt as if this was a court case, we can treat it as such. But if we do, we can only go off of what we know. We cannot create excuses for him that haven't been concretely given. We can only rule on the established evidence. The established evidence thus far is that he went over 2 years without contacting his daughter and he has no stated excuse for it. Anthony is still her legal guardian; he is legally able to sign off on medical procedures without Annie's consent, because she isn't yet of age. And we know that Annie has an potentially terminal illness regarding her etheric side. The etheric procedure it may have been "without consent", but if Tony was trying some form of etheric surgery with the intent of saving his daughter's life, then it's not really different than any other parent who puts their kid through chemo for cancer, or bone transplants for leukemia - painful and unhappy, but the end goal is for the child's sake. And he may not have asked Annie because he did not want to bring up the rather tender topic of the nature of Surma's death and all that it implies. Thing is, we're not sure what was going on - or even what connections Tony had to it. And that's just it - we don't know. We don't know what Tony's been up to for the last 3 years. We don't know what brought him back to the Court. We don't know why he's said the things he's said to Annie. We have virtually zero knowledge of this man. And yet despite this, he has cast a long shadow over Annie and the comic. And so, we're not exactly sure of what to make of him (save those who have already decided he was Gendo Ikari's mentor). People have presented arguments both for and against Tony's long absence and harsh treatment of Annie upon reappearing, but as to what has been truly going on lies with Tom and Tom alone. There are valid reasons for parents to be gone for multiple years without contact. Until we are told, we can only speculate. One more thing to think about: Annie came to the Court with a fairly strong sense of identity, able to speak her mind to adults and teachers (and able to refuse them Rey quite bluntly, even in year 9). If Tony was truly habitually authoritarian, I doubt Annie would've been able to do so, because if she was abused, she likely would've transferred her father's authoritarianism over to the members of the Court (Jimmy-Jims, the Donlans, etc.) and would not have refused them Renyardine's custody for fear of punishment. PPS: What happened to Brinnie? Six friends there were, three we met early, one stood long in absentia, one in the grave... what happened to her? Without her consent, yes. Without her knowledge though? Even if it remains legally tolerable, that doesn't make it morally right. And even if it were to avoid talking about Surma's death, I just don't find that very sympathetic reasoning. I honestly don't care if he was saving her life, this to me is just one of those lines that should never be crossed. Don't alter someone's body (or in this case, spirit) without their knowledge or consent if they are cognizant and rational enough to give it. Consider it a moral maxim of mine, one I by no means expect anyone else to agree with but I'm not going to budge on that point. See, that's my thing. We don't know why he was gone. But we haven't actually been given anything to say it was for a good reason. He hasn't said "Excuse my long absence, but I have my reasons" Or anything of the sort. I won't invent hypothetical excuses for him. So until we reach a stage where he presents an excuse, he doesn't have one. He hasn't done or said anything that I am aware of to warrant me giving him benefit of the doubt. That might change. But as it stands, going on what we do know, he does not look good. He might have an excuse, but no one except Annie (who wouldn't know even if he did) has actually said he has a good reason. Even he hasn't said he had good reason yet. He wouldn't be the first parent to ignore their child with poor/non-existent reasons. Also, there are other viable explanations for Annie's sense of independence (when her father isn't involved.) Part of it is her fire elemental nature. Strong attitudes and strong tempers seem to simply be a trait all fire elementals hold. Coyote states as much and speculates if her father's influence is why she is calmer than most of her kin. Jones confirms this to be true. Implying if nothing else, he was a controlling enough to cause a noted difference in her behavior from other fire elementals. And I don't think he's actively abusive. I think he's neglectful. Which would in fact mandate a level of independence on Annie's part to function at all. |
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