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Post by youwiththeface on Apr 6, 2015 20:21:57 GMT
Did you mean to link to TV Tropes? Is this a trap?!No, no I did not. Sorry. Fixed it. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 6, 2015 20:25:29 GMT
Whilst checking to see what the always-friendly and informative internet had to say about the current plot arc I found this. |
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Post by Vilthuril on Apr 6, 2015 20:26:19 GMT
Did you mean to link to TV Tropes? Is this a trap?!No, no I did not. Sorry. Fixed it. When I looked at it the first time, it linked to a page about Jones! It's the mystery link (perhaps with cake and mice for all!?).  |
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Post by Chancellor on Apr 6, 2015 20:31:04 GMT
Whilst checking to see what the always-friendly and informative internet had to say about the current plot arc I found this.I'll grant that the Hitler stache is a bit much. |
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Post by keef on Apr 6, 2015 20:53:14 GMT
I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out Coyote's insight into Rey's position. Polite rant: Usually I skip posts that start with "I'm surprised that nobody..", or even better: "Am I the only one ..". I assume it's just a figure of speech, but I find it annoying. Sorry. Interesting point, but as KMar pointed out it probably means Coyote thinks Rey doesn't want to leave. That will change if Mr Carver becomes his owner, but it does not mean he can leave. Rant: Wait, what? So if Annie had continued cheating on her homework, she would have turned evil? You got it! All this nice people on web-comic forums pointing out how the protagonist should behave are just protecting you from the illusion you could do something bad and get away with it, without it having dire consequences in later life! Either that or they only want to read about folks who always do the right thing, eat their porridge, don't do drugs, never swear, and are in every way completely ******* boring. |
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Post by fish on Apr 6, 2015 20:54:41 GMT
So, Anthony appears after two years of in-comic time to undo the effects of ten years worth of storytelling? Yeah, I don't think so... next page please!
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quark
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Post by quark on Apr 6, 2015 21:05:16 GMT
No, no I did not. Sorry. Fixed it. When I looked at it the first time, it linked to a page about Jones! It's the mystery link (perhaps with cake and mice for all!?). For a minute there, it was... tvtropes.. that's two hours of my life I'll never get back ò.ó |
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Post by stef1987 on Apr 6, 2015 21:36:17 GMT
Anybody else seen Tom's latest tweet? You think he's starting to get annoyed at our calling for Anthony's blood? Interesting reading through his tweets and the responses and his responses to his tweets! Looks like he may need to take some of his own advice and chill out/take his medicine, or grow a thicker skin, or stop reading twitter, or join us all over in the alternative universe (Space! Gotta go to space!), or start liberally using Block on people, or whatever totes his goat to make him happy - unless he just enjoys being worked up over this. He tweets that in his view a good story will make people uncomfortable sometimes; then he says that stories like that make people grow; then when people say they can grow their own dang selves he backs off of it but pretty snarkily... Touchy much? The odd thing to me is that I don't see much of anyone, if at all, telling him he shouldn't write it that way, and indeed many people saying that yes they are angry at one or more characters but appreciate his writing. Well, whatevs! I guess Tom could, if he wants, go on kicking people in their metaphorical shins and then complaining when they say, "Ouch!" or to stick closer to his own metaphor, having mice pop out of their cake but getting mad if they say, "Eek!" As for me, I don't need to like the author and I don't care what he thinks about what I think about his work. Some of my favourite works of all time are by Robert Heinlein (everything he wrote before he got so big that he was able to just stop telling stories, and pretty much just have his characters stand around bantering about sex and politics). Yeah, he held a goodly number of odious or comical ideas (one of the latter being when, in one of his essays, he tries to slam on the Russians by saying they just took much of their language from French; a pretty silly thing for an English speaker to complain about, hey?!) and was by all accounts a bit of a terror in person, but ermagahrd what a stupendous story teller!  I don't get the fuss about Tom's twitter posts. He doesn't sound angry or anything to me, so what are people talking about? unless I don't really get twitter very well? are his posts direct responses to other peoples posts? if so, how do you see these original posts? I'm not very familiar with twitter |
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Post by zimmyzims on Apr 6, 2015 21:43:09 GMT
God, this comic was painful to read. Annie doesn't even think of not complying. I must disagree. Annie's greatest strength is making friends out of enemies. She befriended Reynardine (who is now a loyal friend and even a father figure to her... he's come a long way from trying to kill her), Ysengrin (which has to be the greater feat - he respects her, and genuinely helps her becoming a good forest medium; his mental instability notwithstanding), Coyote (he gave her his tooth!), Shadow (who's still one of the glass-eyed men), the Psychopomps (who aren't enemies, but very alien in their thinking and actions)... Of course she's strong, but her greatest strength comes from gathering powerful people around her who will stand with her no matter what - for non-enemy examples see Parley and Andrew, who would immediately use his new and fragile position of power to help her against the wishes of the court. And, you know, Kat. Interesting juxtaposition of a part of the worldview[*] espoused notably by Ayn Rand as well as a number of prominent, current political groups/organizations or important factions within them, with the worldview espoused by most other philosophies and religions. Speaking in the name of "most philosophies" and then mistaking virtue ethics for Randianism. |
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Post by nero on Apr 6, 2015 21:51:06 GMT
I knew she wouldn't argue against Anthony over Renard but I didn't think she would say okay so easily. Hopefully Renard is still in her possession.
Now has Annie actually fainted, or is she still standing there while her mind is on a space trip?
Where will she wake up?
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Post by Kitty Hamilton on Apr 6, 2015 21:53:05 GMT
This is the worst.
I think this nightmarish scene is finally over, or almost over, though. What the hell is going to happen now?
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Post by arf on Apr 6, 2015 22:04:26 GMT
Tom's tweets are often a bit ... eccentric? The recent ones are in response to how awful the current situation is. I agree with them but am not surprised that, as the tempura audience is being dropped into the boiling fat of the narrative, we hear screams!
Also, I wouldn't trust Tom with the afternoon tea cake ;-)
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Post by OGRuddawg on Apr 6, 2015 22:07:15 GMT
Okay, screw the Court, I want to see the forest declare war on just Anthony. Sorry Annie, but daddy should have stayed lost if this is what he is really like.
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Post by sapientcoffee on Apr 6, 2015 22:37:22 GMT
Tom's tweets are often a bit ... eccentric? The recent ones are in response to how awful the current situation is. I agree with them but am not surprised that, as the tempura audience is being dropped into the boiling fat of the narrative, we hear screams! Also, I wouldn't trust Tom with the afternoon tea cake ;-) I keep thinking about Miss Havisham's cake. |
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quark
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Post by quark on Apr 6, 2015 22:48:36 GMT
I knew she wouldn't argue against Anthony over Renard but I didn't think she would say okay so easily. Hopefully Renard is still in her possession. Now has Annie actually fainted, or is she still standing there while her mind is on a space trip? Where will she wake up? I don't think she's fainted, I think she's disassociating, like the comic with her make-up, only stronger. I also am worried about the complete obedience she shows towards her father; she's somebody who can stand up to teachers, powerful etheric and magical beings and a god, so I wouldn't have thought it. In hindsight, it's not entirely surprising - as others have pointed out, Anthony may have raised her very authoritarian and may always have given her the impression that she was somehow guilty and had 'get back into his good graces'. Which she of course never could, if he blamed her for Surma's death. As to where she wakes up, good question. I speculate on either another comic with Anthony taking away another part of her life we haven't thought of, or making her go through with it (packing up her things and so on). (Although I hope it's something else, like Kat talking to her parents/Eglamore/Paz/Robot&Shadow/their Classmates and getting them angry, or Rey noticing that something's wrong, the Wandering Eye just showing up and doing what she does...) |
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Post by zimmyzims on Apr 6, 2015 22:54:05 GMT
This has been discussed plenty before, do a search on the forum, or check the page threads. Or you could just tell me. That could work to. Especially since I wouldn't know what to be looking for. You now the chapters you referred to, they have page threads too, go check them. You get the page threads number from, unsurprisingly, the actual webcomic page. If you know at all what you read, you would be looking for the same points about Headmaster's and Coyote's plans that I commented here. You might be also looking for something entirely else. That is up to you. The point is, Coyote and Jones are both calling him out for his game not recognizing what it is. If he was playing a game of some sort, hiding something, well, guess what: his words may have not been honest! Oh my, he couldn't ever have lied, could he... It could well have been a trap for Coyote (who could obviously do the opposite than what Headmaster seems to want) to take Annie to be the forest medium so the Court would have the mediums of both sides from their side. Obviously, if Anthony's command to Annie to get out of the Forest was part of his plan too, then Annie's Forest mediumship was not planned. We know very little of headmaster's intentions. Oh my, the fact that he apparently didn't want Annie going into the woods anymore and wanted to take Renard from her, failed on both counts, only for Anthony to show up and demand the same things...that couldn't mean he actually did want those things, got out played by Coyote and is now trying for them again with Anthony's help, could it!?!? Do you even read the posts you answer to? I just said the same thing that you pointed to me with "reversed irony", which is not how irony works. And this feeling you do not actually excel in reading is coming ever stronger when we advance: So, I repeat my words a little bit differently: They tried to get Rey from Annie, and failed. Anthony tried, and succeeded. I let you do the math on where they needed Anthony. Hope it goes bit better this time. ....You misunderstand, and then act condescending. I never said they didn't need Anthony, or he wasn't of value to them. I said it's possible, perhaps even likely that they didn't have to work very hard to get him to help them. That they didn't need to 'turn' him as you put it. There was nothing for him to turn from. Hope you understood that better this time. Oh, so in fact, this was always just a case of good old strategy of changing other people's words to create an (otherwise completely needless) argument against them just for the sake of doing so. Let's see the original question and your version of it that admittedly you presented already last time (pardon me for assuming that when commenting my speculation you actually replied to what I said and not something completely else): However, I wonder how much Anthony is an independent agent. This is all a guessing game, but if, as it has seemed, the Court has not been aware of his doings (although we know hardly anything about what the headmaster or "the Court" knows), but he has still been in Court's service somehow, he might be somewhat unreliable agent for them, someone they have to turn to in order to get their plans advanced, but who also uses them to advance his own plans. And I don't see why Anthony would be someone they'd have to turn. , not turn from. By the way: That you simply do not know. There was no moment where she hurt. That you simply do not know. Which was my whole point. No it wasn't. What you said is: Which is a big positive claim about what happened to here, and even more so, because the point you were defending was that Annie was obviously physically hurt by Anthony (you may have forgotten it, but I return to this very soon). So, when you say: I still do not want to sound pedant, but there may be no choice with you: had you actually read my post that you replied to (in addition to be able to stick to subject) you should have noticed that I am saying that there is no instance in Divine in the actual comic where she is showed to be hurting. Let me quote that post: This is the post you replied. And then you go on with... the possibility of her being hurt without there being any sign of it and backing it with "we don't know for sure", which would be okay as a far out speculation, but not as a claim about what obviously has happened. I see that you have whole a lot against me for my sin of holding fast to the principles of presumption of innocence and only judging people on basis of a consistent ethical theory, even when the accused person is unlikeable, unlike you and the rest of the lynching mob. It is hard to otherwise make sense of your habit of changing my claims in order to write an angry reply, without supposing that you're a dick, or stupid, or both. What you might learn, if you read those old threads, is that before the likes of you came here, this used to be a place where we could actually discuss possible under currents and future events of the story without somebody yelling angrily about his "obvious" truths without even giving a good read to the post he is yelling at. |
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Post by arf on Apr 6, 2015 23:11:37 GMT
Tom's tweets are often a bit ... eccentric? The recent ones are in response to how awful the current situation is. I agree with them but am not surprised that, as the tempura audience is being dropped into the boiling fat of the narrative, we hear screams! Also, I wouldn't trust Tom with the afternoon tea cake ;-) I keep thinking about Miss Havisham's cake. A cake better contemplated than partaken of. One with both mice *and* white legs, as I recall. Anyway, Tom is clearly aware of what he's doing, and knows where he's taking this. Meanwhile, we can have fun pointing in various directions. |
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 6, 2015 23:38:31 GMT
I see that you have whole a lot against me for my sin of holding fast to the principles of presumption of innocence and only judging people on basis of a consistent ethical theory, even when the accused person is unlikeable, unlike you and the rest of the lynching mob. 1. And you may ultimately be right about Anthony, but there are cases of parents who are guilty of abuse, but never identified/caught, because they don't give off obvious signs or because they have traits which make them appear to be respectable individuals.* Or to put it another way, those who might have the authority to apprehend them choose not to because they are afraid of wrongful persecution. Thus the child continues to receive abuse physically or emotionally. Now I'll agree that the mob mentality is damaging, but sometimes presumption of innocence can backfire dangerously in that one is unknowingly allowing for harm to be done to another with no end. 2. Incidentally, while I can agree that some of the comments against him go too far (including some of mine), I don't know if I'd dismiss it as a witch hunt. In those cases, people are targeting someone who at best has some odd, but victimless traits (like choices in entertainment and clothing or other superficial things). Now the coma might have been done with Annie's consent, so I'm not going to debate on that for the time, but there's still the matter of being absent for most of her life. Whether it was really out of his hands or not, the fact is his absence resulted in his daughter being a social mess and having feelings of abandonment. Which isn't victimless. No, I'm not suggesting that sending her to the Court is neglectful. Just that there was no way for Annie to reach him, nor does he have any interest in being with her unless she's in danger or is a discipline problem (which again is nice if a parent chooses to deal with it, but those factors shouldn't be the only reasons for a parent to be present in their child's life). Even if staying with her was dangerous, why not approach any of his friends (or anyone he trusted) to be there for Annie so that the emotional support factor was accounted for? I mean being emotionally stable and socially healthy is still important. |
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Post by ctso74 on Apr 6, 2015 23:49:35 GMT
...it's certainly not in her displayed nature to just accept the KILLING of Anthony as a solution, and I don't think Rey would be able to do that to her. Although your other points are quote correct (he couldn't fool anyone) and Annie wouldn't kill him, I don't agree with the portion in red. Quoth Tom: He was new to the power, when he first used it, and has displayed excellent control over the doll. Maybe, he's gained better control through the years. Perhaps, Tony's a butthead, who's genuinely worried his daughter's hanging out with his late wife's homicidal stalker. Maybe, Rey will talk some sense into him. Or, this is a terrible, terrible test of Annie's coping abilities. He doesn't trust the Court(coded messages and all). Or, Rey will jump in and discover it's not Tony at all. Or, Tony: "Now, help me with this box of kittens. They're not going to eat themselves." Annie: "Okay." It would be interesting, if Rey jumped in off camera, and we only knew when the fake hand moved. |
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Post by keef on Apr 6, 2015 23:50:23 GMT
I knew she wouldn't argue against Anthony over Renard but I didn't think she would say okay so easily. I really thought this would be the limit, and she would say no. Hope so, but I doubt it. An operating table?.. This is the worst. I think this nightmarish scene is finally over, or almost over, though. What the hell is going to happen now? ..Carver having a plan and sticking to it still looks like the most logical explanation for his behaviour. He started "something" in Divine, and now he is going to finish. Not sure if her make-up is some sort of protection he needed removed first, but it could be.  After that he takes away all she achieved on her own, reducing her to the child she was when he left her. He does not reach out to her in any way, and she breaks. After that: - He works for the court, when she falls she is brought to the operating table by a crew that was standing by.
- He works on his own, actually had the real biology teacher poisoned. He takes her to his moonbase taking the space-elevator he build in Tom Siddell's backyard. When the cavalry arrives he is dead, fried by the fire-elemental he set free.
- He takes her fishing.
- Nothing etherical. He actually forces her to live the life he described. He really believes it is in her best interest. That would be strange and of course very responsible, clean and modern. Kills or locks up Rey, separates her from Kat and the Forest. Even better, convince her it is only logical that she undergo sterilization, so she can live long and prosper. He is a saint.
- Something else.
Whatever, it will fail. Hubris is punished. |
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Post by Corvo on Apr 7, 2015 0:14:12 GMT
All my hopes are now in the little technical details of Rey's contract of ownership. Anthony said "Reynardine", but his real name is "Renard". Maybe Annie will dig up some shenanigan like that, after she snaps out of it?
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Post by atteSmythe on Apr 7, 2015 0:18:40 GMT
All my hopes are now in the little technical details of Rey's contract of ownership. Anthony said "Reynardine", but his real name is "Renard". Maybe Annie will dig up some shenanigan like that, after she snaps out of it? I don't think it would/will have any technical impact (a story with this much emotional impact would be cheapened by switching on a technicality, IMO), but I did find it interesting that Anthony would use Surma's nickname for Renard instead of his given/original name. |
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Post by machival on Apr 7, 2015 0:29:01 GMT
I knew she wouldn't argue against Anthony over Renard but I didn't think she would say okay so easily. I really thought this would be the limit, and she would say no. Hope so, but I doubt it. An operating table?.. This is the worst. I think this nightmarish scene is finally over, or almost over, though. What the hell is going to happen now? ..Carver having a plan and sticking to it still looks like the most logical explanation for his behaviour. He started "something" in Divine, and now he is going to finish. Not sure if her make-up is some sort of protection he needed removed first, but it could be. Personally, I think the make-up is only symbolic. If it had any actual protective powers I'd imagine it would have come up by now.  |
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quark
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Post by quark on Apr 7, 2015 0:32:44 GMT
All my hopes are now in the little technical details of Rey's contract of ownership. Anthony said "Reynardine", but his real name is "Renard". Maybe Annie will dig up some shenanigan like that, after she snaps out of it? I don't think it would/will have any technical impact (a story with this much emotional impact would be cheapened by switching on a technicality, IMO), but I did find it interesting that Anthony would use Surma's nickname for Renard instead of his given/original name. My hope is that Anthony doesn't understand the kind of power that would grant him, or is satisfied with Annie saying 'Rey, follow my father's commands, from now on' instead of transferring ownership of her toy, which would enable her to free Reynardine or take back control whenever she needs to. Anthony isn't terribly interested in the ether, so it may get past him. |
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Post by youwiththeface on Apr 7, 2015 1:01:53 GMT
Or you could just tell me. That could work to. Especially since I wouldn't know what to be looking for. You now the chapters you referred to, they have page threads too, go check them. You get the page threads number from, unsurprisingly, the actual webcomic page. If you know at all what you read, you would be looking for the same points about Headmaster's and Coyote's plans that I commented here. You might be also looking for something entirely else. That is up to you. See? Was that so hard? Thank you for doing what I asked. That helps. Oh my, the fact that he apparently didn't want Annie going into the woods anymore and wanted to take Renard from her, failed on both counts, only for Anthony to show up and demand the same things...that couldn't mean he actually did want those things, got out played by Coyote and is now trying for them again with Anthony's help, could it!?!? Do you even read the posts you answer to? I just said the same thing that you pointed to me with "reversed irony", which is not how irony works. And this feeling you do not actually excel in reading is coming ever stronger when we advance: ....You misunderstand, and then act condescending. I never said they didn't need Anthony, or he wasn't of value to them. I said it's possible, perhaps even likely that they didn't have to work very hard to get him to help them. That they didn't need to 'turn' him as you put it. There was nothing for him to turn from. Hope you understood that better this time. Oh, so in fact, this was always just a case of good old strategy of changing other people's words to create an (otherwise completely needless) argument against them just for the sake of doing so. Let's see the original question and your version of it that admittedly you presented already last time (pardon me for assuming that when commenting my speculation you actually replied to what I said and not something completely else): And I don't see why Anthony would be someone they'd have to turn. , not turn from. Alright. I misread the turn to. However, I was arguing that this: "a somewhat unreliable agent for them, someone they have to turn to in order to get their plans advanced, but who also uses them to advance his own plans. And so, a possibility remains that even if he's playing for Court now, he is not really in their control and may betray their plans at some point." didn't have to be the case, as Anthony could be completely gung ho about whatever the court's plan is, and would have no need or inclination to be independent or not in their control and/or betray them later, which is still valid despite the minor slip up. By the way: That you simply do not know. Which was my whole point. No it wasn't. What you said is: Which is a big positive claim about what happened to here, and even more so, because the point you were defending was that Annie was obviously physically hurt by Anthony (you may have forgotten it, but I return to this very soon). So, when you say: I still do not want to sound pedant, but there may be no choice with you: had you actually read my post that you replied to (in addition to be able to stick to subject) you should have noticed that I am saying that there is no instance in Divine in the actual comic where she is showed to be hurting. Let me quote that post: This is the post you replied. And then you go on with... the possibility of her being hurt without there being any sign of it and backing it with "we don't know for sure", which would be okay as a far out speculation, but not as a claim about what obviously has happened. Well I have been saying that putting a person in a coma counts as hurting them physically, as I've pointed out that knocking someone out against their will (as with knock out drugs) qualifies as assault and/or battery in quite a few places. But my point was that her waking up happy from a good sleep and feeling fine being attributed to what was done to her or was a result of what was done having no ill effect on her, could also be a result of Zimmy's removing it from her. Your interpretation of that as a sign that the operation had no ill effects on her and didn't hurt her is not the only one, and not the confirmed correct one, either. I could interpret it completely differently and I'd be just as vindicated by what we've seen in the comic so far. I see that you have whole a lot against me for my sin of holding fast to the principles of presumption of innocence and only judging people on basis of a consistent ethical theory, even when the accused person is unlikeable, unlike you and the rest of the lynching mob. It is hard to otherwise make sense of your habit of changing my claims in order to write an angry reply, without supposing that you're a dick, or stupid, or both. A lynch mob? Really? Putting aside the fact that we're talking about a fictional character which is more or less made for the express purpose of inspiring strong emotions if the author is good enough, even though some threats on the internet can be a warning of impending violence and merit calling the cops, they are in no way comparable to an actual lynch mob by themselves. Especially when directed at someone who doesn't exist. What you might learn, if you read those old threads, is that before the likes of you came here, this used to be a place where we could actually discuss possible under currents and future events of the story without somebody yelling angrily about his "obvious" truths without even giving a good read to the post he is yelling at. So you weren't posting here then? |
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Post by warrl on Apr 7, 2015 2:04:01 GMT
I'm puzzled by Tony's request for control of Reynard. I thought the ownership contract was with Annie specifically, and couldn't be transferred. No, Rey merely can't be *taken* from her. She can *give* him away. Or he could be passed on by inheritance if she dies and has specified what becomes of him in that event- as happened with Hetty. However, Tony has not requested the "plushie", but Rey. One way to perform the transfer would be that Annie commanded Rey to take control of a doll with Anthony's symbol on it. Wonder what that would be... imaginaryfriend proposed one possibility.  Interesting approach... because that would constitute giving Rey permission to leave the wolf doll, which would remain Annie's property... and since Rey would then be between the two dolls, and not possessing anyone's property, he would not be bound to obey instructions. He'd be free. Of course, he'd then need another body. Perhaps Annie could have grabbed an action figure or something and held it up to Rey saying "I give this to you; it is your property and yours only." Then Rey could move into it and walk away. |
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Post by msouth on Apr 7, 2015 2:11:40 GMT
I'm also curious what Tom's comment of 'tko' means. Anyone have knowledge/guesses of it? I'm guessing that Tom is as old as me or so and probably means: Technical Knockout It's a term from boxing, when one participant has been beaten so badly that, although he is not actually unconscious, he is deemed unable to continue fighting. Colloquially, it means you got the crap beaten out of you. More detail/definition is here on wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockout#Technical_knockoutSometimes people are more familiar with the colloquial definition (i.e. "that person got beat up really bad") and will use it even when the person is actually knocked out, possibly because they don't actually know the origin of the term and getting knocked out falls into the category of being beaten up really bad. |
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Post by Eisenblume on Apr 7, 2015 2:19:10 GMT
This is too much in too little time. Just by standards of storytelling I don't think all of this is going to happen. Not certain it would be bad per se, but I don't think it will happen. Thankfully, I don't think it would be very interesting. Then again, I might be wrong... I just think that at least some of these things will be stopped.
Or then again, perhaps this is another step into the Court-Gillitie war that I'm expecting will end this comic...
(But I doubt it)
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Post by goldenknots on Apr 7, 2015 2:38:16 GMT
I'm rather hoping that as soon as she starts thinking again she'll break the spell and start acting in her own interest. First order of business is emancipating Renard, outright. Just "Okay, you're free, hope you come visit sometime. If you eat my father, please don't do it while I'm watching." Then just walk out, and go stay with the forest folk.
If she doesn't start snapping out of it on her own, I'm guessing Zimmy's the one who's got the gumption to slap her upside the head and give her a frank talking to. Jones seems too passive, and Kat's just boiling mad and unlikely to be able to make coherent sense, but Zimmy knows what's going on and doesn't care what she breaks while she fixes things she thinks need fixing.
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Post by Chancellor on Apr 7, 2015 2:51:22 GMT
Jones just needs to get into a staring contest with Tony.
Anthony looks like he's in some relatively rough shape, so I figure it should only take ten to fifteen years to finish him off that way.
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