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Post by Daedalus on Apr 6, 2015 17:56:11 GMT
I specialize in ominous. Have you read my theory?  Which one? THE theory. The apotheosis of our divine machine goddess Katerina. For any newcomers to the forum, click on the banner in my signature. EDIT: before I removed it b/c it was misbehaving. Link. |
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quark
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Post by quark on Apr 6, 2015 18:07:04 GMT
I'm sorry - a parent who thinks their love and affection and respect has to be 'earned'.. doesn't deserve that kind of effort. Love, yes, a parent should give that unconditionally. Respect, though, is meaningless if it is not earned. Look at what I said: "To earn his respect, if not his love and affection." That is, if Annie's Father has no love or affection for her, she can at least earn his respect. That would be tragic, but it might be all he's capable of. Depends - there are two definitions of respect. There is the respect you gain for somebody (because they've accomplished something, because they've made something out of themselves) and there is respecting somebody as a person. Respecting their choices, their views, their wishes, their rights. This respect doesn't need to be earned, it's a basic human right and not at all worthless. Anthony doesn't respect her. |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 6, 2015 18:12:30 GMT
Interesting juxtaposition of a part of the worldview[*] espoused notably by Ayn Rand as well as a number of prominent, current political groups/organizations or important factions within them, with the worldview espoused by most other philosophies and religions. Pretty sure I'm not a Randite, if only because I haven't the patience to read her work. And most of the people I know who claim to be Randites are about as cheerless as the people claiming to be Communists. Ah, well, this is encouraging, since that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you are defined by yourself. You express yourself, and are known by, the company you keep, and by your works. To say that someone is defined by the people around them is to deny them agency. Annie is so strong, I believe, that if you dropped her into a prison, she would start making friends, real friends, with the people around her. Look at Andy DuFresne, in Shawshank Redemption. He was defined by his goodness, and even when surrounded and controlled by evil, both prisoners and guards, he made friends, including Red. (Who, by the way, is the Redeemed person the title speaks of.) If that's a valid summary of Rand's position, then I am certainly not a Randite. If my life has taught me anything, it's that not depending on others is like not depending on food. I'd conditionally strike friends from that list, but yeah, I'm suspicious of those working for a bureaucracy, especially a government bureaucracy. They rarely know enough about you and your situation to make better decisions than you can concerning your own life, and far, far too often, they act in the best interests of their bureaucracy, and of course in their own best interests, rather than those of the people they serve. There are many, many exceptions, but the more bureaucracy controls its workers, the more their own goodness is swamped by the evil inherent in a system empowered to force people to act in accordance with mere regulations, and not their own consciences. This is, however, due to the nature of governments, not the people who work for them. We are all flawed; taking a government job, even high elective office, doesn't make you a selfless angel. So, then, you think Annie would want her friends to use her to cheat without her knowledge? Or to engage her in criminal enterprises, or even treason against her own kind? Because I don't, and I think that's part of why she's going along with the assessed sentence--she knows she acted badly against people she loves and who loved and trusted her. A bit off topic for this discussion, but briefly: We should be obligated by our consciences to give charity. A "charitable" obligation imposed by force, say by a government, is little more than organized armed robbery, subject to corruption and being siphoned off from the deserving by the collectors. When dealing with adolescents (an age group notorious for poor decision making, even to the point of falling into crime, or getting themselves killed), a parent should have at least some veto power over their children's decision. As I've said repeatedly, it's not so much that I support Anthony, it's that Annie has failed the trust and confidence that others have put on her. Her father would not be taking such drastic measures had she not been screwing up so badly. |
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 6, 2015 18:13:04 GMT
Nope. That's not the real Anthony. However, I also don't believe this is a dream sequence. Instead, I think that's some sort of doppelganger that took the rough visage of her father to catch her off guard, and has been focusing on isolating her to prevent her or anyone else from realizing what it's doing. If Annie remembered to go out-of-body literally rather than figuratively, she would know. But she habitually fails to use this ability. Breaks down exactly when she may need to mobilize everything she got, too. As usual. So... her father is not her only weakness. As it is... Between the clone vat lab in the previous chapter (just like Microsat 5 right before Divine) and the wisp, it's quite possible. For all we know, this chuckleduck could be Coyote... Though very unlikely. - For an outsider, this would require outstandingly good preparation to pull. Everything down to printing the syllabus and arranging the appartments switch. - If it's within the Court, it's not a one-day operation, and Donald is going to discover his old pal is here today. Donny will ask questions (especially given how well Tony was hiding), check for what only two of them know. His most likely responce to a failed authentication is to force-cage the impostor where he stands. And raise alarm, possibly bypassing the Court's protocols - all it takes is someone with a blinker, or a robot, which will be at hand if Kat is involved. Anyone in the Court who did the homework necessary for such a trick would have to know all this. - If it's within the Court, and is a one-day operation (e.g. to get Renard), everyone touched by it and many of their friends and relatives in Court are likely to discover it the next day. The only sensible responce to this can be screaming for blood, and that can end in any number of unexpected ways (remember Residential?), because they are (borderline) mad scientists insulted in their best feelings and now know it's not paranoia, someone is out to get them, and able to. Which is also quite obvious. As matoyak noted, however, his demands make perfect sense - assuming he really looked only into things he expected to check beforehand... or even more likely, which were suggested to him, because on his own Anthony was completely at a loss again. There's nothing so out-of-character he can't be the real Anthony. Especially given the guy's known problems. |
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Post by atteSmythe on Apr 6, 2015 18:15:02 GMT
Thoughts in no particular order: 1) I don't buy that Anthony will have nothing to do with the etheric. He and Donny used ether-enhanced rockets to put satellites in orbit. He may not tolerate the answer "because, ether", but he's perfectly willing to benefit from the application of etheric tech. 2) I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out Coyote's insight into Rey's position. I'm on mobile so linking it would be difficult, but towards the end of Fire Spike, when Annie tells Coyote that the Court tricked Renard, his response ends in something like this. "It is not the meddling laws of man that keep him there, but his love for you!" Thanks for bringing this up - I was going to if no one had by the end of the thread. It's not clear that Antimony can "transfer ownership." 3) God, this comic was painful to read. Annie doesn't even think of not complying. It is painful to watch, yes. I like Annie, I don't like Anthony. Annie's Father (you'll notice I haven't been calling him her "Dad") is causing her considerable distress. I wish that didn't have to happen. I wish Annie had not been cheating and plagierizing and in general running around like she owns the place, because if she hadn't, her Father probably wouldn't be isolating her from possible bad influences--i.e., her circle of friends. You're blaming the victim of abuse for being abused. Yes, she broke rules. Yes, she should be punished. These are not the only possible punishments. This is not the only possible manner in which to apply said punishments. This is emotional abuse after more than two years of abandonment. |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 6, 2015 18:16:24 GMT
For all we know, Reynardine will be waiting in Annie's room ready to go with her Father because he, too, disapproves of what Annie's been doing. That flies in the regal face of every sensible notion we have about Reynard. You may be right; we'll see. I myself doubt that's likely, but it is possible. Still, I am, as I've said, very concerned for Reynardine's well being in Mr. Carter's hands. I'd rather see him go to Eglamore. |
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Post by ryrmyrbyr on Apr 6, 2015 18:22:35 GMT
Tony is the kind of teacher who goes into Hogwarts and tells the kids they can't fight Lord Voldemort anymore.
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Post by Refugee on Apr 6, 2015 18:23:03 GMT
Love, yes, a parent should give that unconditionally. Respect, though, is meaningless if it is not earned. Look at what I said: "To earn his respect, if not his love and affection." That is, if Annie's Father has no love or affection for her, she can at least earn his respect. That would be tragic, but it might be all he's capable of. Depends - there are two definitions of respect. There is the respect you gain for somebody (because they've accomplished something, because they've made something out of themselves) and there is respecting somebody as a person. Respecting their choices, their views, their wishes, their rights. This respect doesn't need to be earned, it's a basic human right and not at all worthless. Anthony doesn't respect her. When someone acts to injure themselves or those around them. they can, and indeed should lose the respect of those around them. You are not entitled, as a basic human right, to the good opinion of those around you. You hurt the people around you, you can expect to be punished for it, and for them to lose their respect of you, precisely because you've shown you do not respect them. |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 6, 2015 18:23:43 GMT
Tony is the kind of teacher who goes into Hogwarts and tells the kids they can't fight Lord Voldemort anymore. No, he's the one who tells students they can't use magic to cheat, lie, and steal in minor ways, so they don't become Voldemort, or one of his minions. I do see the difference you're pointing to, and I respect that.  And I agree that even rapists and murders and domestic terrorists deserve at least the respect of due process and to be protected from cruel and usual punishment. But when a person fails to respect others, they can expect to lose the personal respect others have given them. |
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Post by youwiththeface on Apr 6, 2015 18:24:03 GMT
Why would the headmaster's desire that Annie not be the forest medium not be honest? He made a point of saying, after giving Smitty the job as Court medium, that Annie would not need to go to the forest anymore. That seems like a big indicator that the dude does not want Annie hanging out there for any reason, so being the forest medium (a job that requires Annie to frequently travel to the forest) would logically be something he wouldn't want. This has been discussed plenty before, do a search on the forum, or check the page threads. Or you could just tell me. That could work to. Especially since I wouldn't know what to be looking for. The point is, Coyote and Jones are both calling him out for his game not recognizing what it is. If he was playing a game of some sort, hiding something, well, guess what: his words may have not been honest! Oh my, he couldn't ever have lied, could he... It could well have been a trap for Coyote (who could obviously do the opposite than what Headmaster seems to want) to take Annie to be the forest medium so the Court would have the mediums of both sides from their side. Obviously, if Anthony's command to Annie to get out of the Forest was part of his plan too, then Annie's Forest mediumship was not planned. We know very little of headmaster's intentions. Oh my, the fact that he apparently didn't want Annie going into the woods anymore and wanted to take Renard from her, failed on both counts, only for Anthony to show up and demand the same things...that couldn't mean he actually did want those things, got out played by Coyote and is now trying for them again with Anthony's help, could it!?!? And I don't see why Anthony would be someone they'd have to turn. Jones says he never had patience for things that didn't fall into a scientific category. And Renard, remember, is the forest creature that took over a man's body So, I repeat my words a little bit differently: They tried to get Rey from Annie, and failed. Anthony tried, and succeeded. I let you do the math on where they needed Anthony. Hope it goes bit better this time. ....You misunderstand, and then act condescending. I never said they didn't need Anthony, or he wasn't of value to them. I said it's possible, perhaps even likely that they didn't have to work very hard to get him to help them. That they didn't need to 'turn' him as you put it. There was nothing for him to turn from. Hope you understood that better this time. |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 6, 2015 18:34:54 GMT
"Reynardine...you have some kind of control over him?"
As others have said, and I want to agree with, Annie's "control" has long since passed from ownership into friendship. That "control" cannot be passed. I would not be entirely displeased if Annie tries to give Reynard to her Father, only to have Reynard refuse, and slip away.
But I do not think that even then, he would be the selfish, malign force he was when last Anthony knew him. Annie's taught him better. And when Annie needs him, he will be there, no matter what.
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Post by Vilthuril on Apr 6, 2015 18:50:45 GMT
2. I wonder if Anthony essentially did the same thing to Surma... Isolated her from the forest and all her friends so he could have complete control over her. Then tried to excise the fire elemental from her (without success). We really don't know too much about Surma/Tony history, or what their relationship was like. I would like to think Surma was stronger than that, but we all have our weaknesses. Indeed, their relationship is one of the - by Tom's intention I am pretty sure! - great mysteries of the story. Why did Surma go from us seeing her as an adult talking with Anja about how much she loves Eglamore and misses him while he is away, to us seeing her through Antimony's eyes married and comforting Anthony as she herself was dying? Was she simply a frequent liar and manipulator about love, in accordance with what she did to Reynardine? I don't want to think so! Was she like the female lead in too many different musicals (Nancy in Oliver being a prime example, and she also ends up dead) who sings a heartfelt song that can be summarized, "Yes, he's a scary whacko, but He [Says He] Needs Me and so I have to stay with him/do and say what he wants no matter what"? Again, yick and blech! Some day I suppose we will find out, if we can survive until then. |
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guyy
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Post by guyy on Apr 6, 2015 18:58:03 GMT
Tony is the kind of teacher who goes into Hogwarts and tells the kids they can't fight Lord Voldemort anymore. No, he's the one who tells students they can't use magic to cheat, lie, and steal in minor ways, so they don't become Voldemort, or one of his minions. Wait, what? So if Annie had continued cheating on her homework, she would have turned evil? One might compare Tony to Snape, but that's not really fair, because Snape was just strict and distant and academically demanding. Tony is all of those things plus super vindictive. This chapter is like if Snape caught Harry peeking at Hermione's notes and made him move to a private dorm away from his friends for the rest of the year, took away his wand and broomstick, and made him cover up his scar with makeup so he wouldn't stand out. Making her retake classes because she cheated is reasonable, but taking away everything she cares about is not (and I feel like they procrastinated on dealing with her cheating so they'd have an excuse to drop an oversized punishment hammer). He's not doing all that extra stuff for any rational reason, it's because Annie is the reason his wife died and he hates her for it. |
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quark
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Post by quark on Apr 6, 2015 19:03:34 GMT
Depends - there are two definitions of respect. There is the respect you gain for somebody (because they've accomplished something, because they've made something out of themselves) and there is respecting somebody as a person. Respecting their choices, their views, their wishes, their rights. This respect doesn't need to be earned, it's a basic human right and not at all worthless. Anthony doesn't respect her. When someone acts to injure themselves or those around them. they can, and indeed should lose the respect of those around them. You are not entitled, as a basic human right, to the good opinion of those around you. You hurt the people around you, you can expect to be punished for it, and for them to lose their respect of you, precisely because you've shown you do not respect them. Which is precisely what Anthony does. He hurts those around him, and has been for some time. And while you're not entitled to a good opinion, you're entitled to respect (in the sense of being treated like a human being; you can't lose that right, no matter what you did). In most justice systems, the motivation of the criminal is extremely important. Depending on their motivation, a case of killing somebody can be manslaughter or murder or self-defence. Antimony's inability to keep up with her classmates could stem from laziness, lack of education (she only learned from Surma - I finally found the comic!) or doing too much extracurricular work. She is absolutely entitled to a defence, or at least an explanation. Respecting her as a person would require finding out her motivation; Anthony doesn't care, and treats her more like an object, or property than like a person. |
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 6, 2015 19:09:20 GMT
"Reynardine...you have some kind of control over him?" As others have said, and I want to agree with, Annie's "control" has long since passed from ownership into friendship. That "control" cannot be passed. I would not be entirely displeased if Annie tries to give Reynard to her Father, only to have Reynard refuse, and slip away. But I do not think that even then, he would be the selfish, malign force he was when last Anthony knew him. Annie's taught him better. And when Annie needs him, he will be there, no matter what. Although this is all true, Rey still has to obey any commands his owner gives him. And he is still bound into Annie's toy, so if she gives the toy to Anthony, he DOES have control over Rey's actions. But I agree. Rey has reformed, and he will always be there for Annie as long as he is physically able (read: unless Anthony orders him not to). |
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Anthony
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No, not THAT guy.
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Post by Anthony on Apr 6, 2015 19:12:24 GMT
Next is her blinker stone, then he will cut her hair short. Then there will be a 5-year timeskip where she only studies in isolation (?) Next page wil be totally "Now drop and give me 20" XD |
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Post by sherni on Apr 6, 2015 19:14:23 GMT
I wonder if the makeup was protecting her somehow from Anthony's influence, and that's why he had her take it off at the beginning of class. That's an interesting point! Annie's mother's name was Surma Stibnite. In my country, surma is a type of cosmetic made from the mineral stibnite (which is another form of antimony) and aside from being used as eyeliner, it is also used on children to protect them from the evil eye. Anthony asking Annie to remove her makeup (and no one else, mind you!) might have another meaning to it now! These last few pages were painful to read. He's taking Annie to pieces here. You can practically see all her confidence and happiness peeling away. It couldn't be more obvious that he's trying to isolate her from everyone and control every aspect of her life. His intentions might be good, but that doesn't really matter. We all know that saying about good intentions. Isolation is not going to do Annie the slightest bit of good. It was Kat and the others who care about her who brought her out of her shell. Separating her from them, with only her father and his repressive nature for company, she may well go back to the cold, masked girl she was earlier. Judging by how easily Anthony is able to break her down, this is very likely to happen. And now she might have lost Reynardine. I doubt that Anthony's intentions towards the fox are benevolent. Annie might have just put one of her most loyal friends into a terrible situation. Let's hope that 'Okay' wasn't binding... Though there might be a loophole here. A grammatical one. Anthony said "This control will be passed to me." " WILL be." Not "Pass the control to me." Future tense! And Annie, no matter how much she's letting him get to her, is not literally bound by her word to him. She might have agreed to him now, but (hopefully) once she's had some time away from him, she can flatly refuse to give him control. Is this theory viable? English isn't my first language, so I'm not too sure. Maybe we should all just pray to Coyote. If we're loud enough and enough of us do it, I'm sure he'll hear us and... I don't know. Toss Anthony back to whatever satellite he beamed down from? Or maybe Anthony IS Coyote in disguise trying to get Reynardine back from the Court and under his paw? |
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Post by Refugee on Apr 6, 2015 19:16:00 GMT
No, he's the one who tells students they can't use magic to cheat, lie, and steal in minor ways, so they don't become Voldemort, or one of his minions. Wait, what? So if Annie had continued cheating on her homework, she would have turned evil? If she never suffered adverse consequences for her bad actions, then no, she likely wouldn't be Voldemort. But they can and often do go badly off track. And one of the strongest patterns in criminal activity is the tendency to start small and work up. I only used Voldemort because I was riffing off the post I quoted. I don't think she would ever become Voldemort, exactly, but she could become callous, or, sometimes worse, a meddling do-gooder. Anyway, it's good she's been called out for her cheating, it's good she feels guilty enough to accept her punishment. Whether she and her Father can learn to get along with each other remains to be seen, but I hope she at least does not come to hate him. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 6, 2015 19:21:22 GMT
Whoops! I keep forgetting to say, welcome to the forums all new people! Nope. That's not the real Anthony. However, I also don't believe this is a dream sequence. Instead, I think that's some sort of doppelganger that took the rough visage of her father to catch her off guard, and has been focusing on isolating her to prevent her or anyone else from realizing what it's doing. If Annie remembered to go out-of-body literally rather than figuratively, she would know. But she habitually fails to use this ability. Breaks down exactly when she may need to mobilize everything she got, too. As usual. So... her father is not her only weakness. In Antimony's defense (sort of) even if it occurred to her to doubt that this is her father, leaving your body appears to make you more vulnerable and she's probably feeling plenty vulnerable already. And she has not always liked the things she's seen when peeking using her blinker stone. That could make one gunshy about using it.  |
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Post by Chancellor on Apr 6, 2015 19:27:45 GMT
Anybody else seen Tom's latest tweet?
You think he's starting to get annoyed at our calling for Anthony's blood?
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Post by sherni on Apr 6, 2015 19:35:50 GMT
Anybody else seen Tom's latest tweet? You think he's starting to get annoyed at our calling for Anthony's blood? Well, he did write the guy. He must have known the kind of reactions people would have to Anthony. Or to anyone being unnecessarily mean to Annie. |
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 6, 2015 19:39:25 GMT
Anybody else seen Tom's latest tweet? You think he's starting to get annoyed at our calling for Anthony's blood? I checked out what I think you're referring to. But I'm guessing it's less about disliking Anthony and more complaining about writing a story that's not all happy-go lucky. |
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Post by youwiththeface on Apr 6, 2015 19:40:50 GMT
Anybody else seen Tom's latest tweet? You think he's starting to get annoyed at our calling for Anthony's blood? Yeah, that's a lot of posts. Maybe annoyed at the fact that some people might be freaking out or thinking the comic is bad because it's engendering such a negative reaction? But that's exactly what makes it good, that just a couple pages can put us all into such agony. If Tom didn't do a good job investing us in Antimony and her story we wouldn't be freaking out like we are. |
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Post by Daedalus on Apr 6, 2015 19:50:34 GMT
Anybody else seen Tom's latest tweet? You think he's starting to get annoyed at our calling for Anthony's blood? No, he seems to be angry about people on his twitter (?) perhaps because they're complaining about him making the story sad, or complaining he's making the story pedantic somehow, or that this page makes him (Tom) a bad person. I don't see too much connection to our thoughts here. Of course, I may be totally wrong, as always. |
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Post by pxc on Apr 6, 2015 19:53:58 GMT
Anybody else seen Tom's latest tweet? You think he's starting to get annoyed at our calling for Anthony's blood? What did he say? |
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Post by Vilthuril on Apr 6, 2015 20:09:26 GMT
Anybody else seen Tom's latest tweet? You think he's starting to get annoyed at our calling for Anthony's blood? Interesting reading through his tweets and the responses and his responses to his tweets! Looks like he may need to take some of his own advice and chill out/take his medicine, or grow a thicker skin, or stop reading twitter, or join us all over in the alternative universe (Space! Gotta go to space!), or start liberally using Block on people, or whatever totes his goat to make him happy - unless he just enjoys being worked up over this. He tweets that in his view a good story will make people uncomfortable sometimes; then he says that stories like that make people grow; then when people say they can grow their own dang selves he backs off of it but pretty snarkily... Touchy much? The odd thing to me is that I don't see much of anyone, if at all, telling him he shouldn't write it that way, and indeed many people saying that yes they are angry at one or more characters but appreciate his writing. Well, whatevs! I guess Tom could, if he wants, go on kicking people in their metaphorical shins and then complaining when they say, "Ouch!" or to stick closer to his own metaphor, having mice pop out of their cake but getting mad if they say, "Eek!" As for me, I don't need to like the author and I don't care what he thinks about what I think about his work. Some of my favourite works of all time are by Robert Heinlein (everything he wrote before he got so big that he was able to just stop telling stories, and pretty much just have his characters stand around bantering about sex and politics). Yeah, he held a goodly number of odious or comical ideas (one of the latter being when, in one of his essays, he tries to slam on the Russians by saying they just took much of their language from French; a pretty silly thing for an English speaker to complain about, hey?!) and was by all accounts a bit of a terror in person, but ermagahrd what a stupendous story teller!  |
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Post by youwiththeface on Apr 6, 2015 20:10:18 GMT
Anybody else seen Tom's latest tweet? You think he's starting to get annoyed at our calling for Anthony's blood? What did he say? I think the cake tweet's my favorite. For several reasons. |
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Post by Purgatorius on Apr 6, 2015 20:13:05 GMT
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Post by The Anarch on Apr 6, 2015 20:14:31 GMT
But I'm guessing it's less about disliking Anthony and more complaining about writing a story that's not all happy-go lucky. Maybe I should go put a disclaimer at the top of the MEANWHILE thread saying "FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY" and "Please support the official release!" Did you mean to link to TV Tropes? Is this a trap?! |
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Post by Vilthuril on Apr 6, 2015 20:16:24 GMT
Ah, but will the cake really be served, or is it..a lie?! Perhaps even more to the point: Skinner: [on Linguini] Look at him out there, pretending to be an idiot! He's toying with my mind like a cat with a ball... of something! Lawyer: String? Skinner: Yes! Playing dumb, taunting me with that {MOUSE}! Lawyer: [confused] {Mouse}? Skinner: Yes! He's consorting with it, deliberately trying to make me think it's important! Lawyer: The... {mouse}? Skinner: EXACTLY! Lawyer: Is the {mouse} important? Skinner: [pause] Of course not! He just wants me to THINK that it is! O-ho, I see the theatricality of it! A {mouse} appears on the {cake}'s first night, I order him to kill it, and now he wants me to see it everywhere! Skinner: [high voice] Ooooh! It's here! No it isn't it's here! Am I seeing things, am I crazy, is there a phantom {mouse} or is there not, but oh, no! I refuse to be sucked into his little game... of... Lawyer: Should I be concerned about this? About you?  |
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And I agree that even rapists and murders and domestic terrorists deserve at least the respect of due process and to be protected from cruel and usual punishment. 
