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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 25, 2015 20:50:35 GMT
Yeah, I'm doing a reread and something creepy jumped out at me from A Ghost Story p. 336-- Muut shows up to take a soul, claiming he's there for "a visit," and Annie recognizes the room number: "Mrs. Tolikna? You are just in time! My da- father said she is leaving tomorrow. She's kind of old, though. She's probably asleep right now." There's no way a surgeon should be saying that any patient is going to die the next day with that amount of certainty. Even a very old woman in what I'm assuming is a palliative care ward. Not, "she'll be leaving any day now" or "soon,", but "she is leaving tomorrow." I guess it's possible that Mrs. Tolikna had a living will in place and had slipped into a state where the hospital would be pulling the plug at a set time, but... ugh. I think it makes more sense to interpret that as her already being dead at the time of Muut's visit. Doesn't he only collect the souls of dead people, not almost-dead people? Agreed with this. They do not appear before death, but after it. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 25, 2015 21:05:53 GMT
[completely out of hands speculation about future events] Ugh, just, fuck this guy. So, now you're judging the guy by the projections you make about him in the most nightmarish imaginable scenarios? |
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Post by arkadi on Mar 25, 2015 21:09:12 GMT
Man, Carver sure is trying his damned best to make Annie explode. I hate to say this (and fuck you Carver for making me say it) but right now it's probably a good thing that she's had such a long experience in repressing herself; otherwise the whole building might be a furnace by now. There are five bones stuck to Annie in the Divine, and these bones do look like phalanges - and it would make sense that if he was operating her through some etheric science, he had his hands on her. This concreteness of operating her also explains the anaesthesia that the "coma", which always effectively was just being asleep, would have been. She had to be asleep to be operated. I wish we'll learn what he tried to do. This is getting very interesting. If this were indeed what was happening, it begs three questions: - What was he trying to do?
- How far did he get?
- What is the impact to Annie of it having been interrupted?
I am interested in #3 in particular. In the physical world, just stopping a surgery would very likely make things much worse than they were before. Impact? Very little, probably: I haven't noticed any significant changes in Annie after Divine. Either Zimmy interrupted his creepy etheric surgery in time or it simply didn't work. |
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Post by arkadi on Mar 25, 2015 21:18:47 GMT
She should get her act together and stand up to that sorry excuse for a father, yeah. But it's not gonna be easy for her  |
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Post by warrl on Mar 25, 2015 21:32:31 GMT
Wrong answer, Annie.
Better answer:
Sir, I love my father and care about him. As far as I know, I'm the only relative he has. So what happens to him IS my business. Are you my father? Or is he dead?
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Mar 25, 2015 21:41:41 GMT
"Let me restate. Is it your business?"
Damn! Not even a "some other time"! No matter how much of a wall Annie is, she'll never out-wall her dad. Although I must say - if that coma thing had something to do with him losing his hand (although I'm not certain it did), then this is basically Anthony's course way of absolving her of responsibility. So...there's that.
But this raises the question: what is their business then?
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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 25, 2015 21:43:20 GMT
"Let me restate. Is it your business?" Damn! Not even a "some other time"! No matter how much of a wall Annie is, she'll never out-wall her dad. Although I must say - if that coma thing had something to do with him losing his hand (although I'm not certain it did), then this is basically Anthony's course way of absolving her of responsibility. So...there's that. But this raises the question: what is their business then? Again, maybe it was not a rhetorical question. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Mar 25, 2015 21:46:39 GMT
Anyway, these are questions to which I hope we'll get answers. At the moment it seems that nothing happened to Annie, however. Or has anybody noticed any effect after that? Impact? Very little, probably: I haven't noticed any significant changes in Annie after Divine. Either Zimmy interrupted his creepy etheric surgery in time or it simply didn't work. Well, the chapter right after Divine is The Great Secret, which is when we first see Annie being outright "unruly", as Jones described it. Perhaps this aborted procedure had an impact on her own control of her fire spirit. |
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Post by psybershadow on Mar 25, 2015 22:07:29 GMT
What do you guys think is the probability of Anthony trying to kill his daughter? Given how many people have already tried to kill her?
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Post by nero on Mar 25, 2015 22:41:26 GMT
I'm still holding out hope for a Tree of Tears-fruit-driven hallucination here. The cartoonish evil as the first sign of Anthony since...well, in the present storyline, /ever/...is just a little too abrupt. Yes, how is the tree involved with Anthony. Is it just to compare Robot's lost wooden arm to Anthony's hand? Is the fruit giving Annie a peak into the future? With his hand, some things are starting to line up. I can only think that Anthony is possiblely giving Annie detention or transferring her into a lower science class. |
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Post by ctso74 on Mar 25, 2015 22:52:39 GMT
Gave out all his love and cheer to help the needing of the world, leaving none for his precious daughter? Nah, I'm still betting on dedicated lifetime practitioner of Tossery. You think Surma would have married a dedicated tosser? When she had other choices available? I'm telling you, there's more to this than meets the eye. Tony is deliberately pushing Annie away. Why, we don't know, but I suspect it is, or at least he strongly believes it is, for her benefit. If he is the one behind the "bone lasers", then he certainly has an interest in her. But, people do change, especially going through trauma. I'm hoping that interest is a caring but awkward one, instead of the stabby kind. What do you guys think is the probability of Anthony trying to kill his daughter? Given how many people have already tried to kill her? If he's writing a permission slip to skip school, so she can go heli-skiing or base jumping with him, then I'd say a good probability. Or we will have discovered how he lost his hand. It's Mr. Carver, because the only doctorate he has now is in Danger... Anthony Carver, extreme sports enthusiast! |
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Post by FlyingMug on Mar 25, 2015 22:59:22 GMT
What do you guys think is the probability of Anthony trying to kill his daughter? Given how many people have already tried to kill her? 0%. He's a smart guy. He's probably noticed that Antimony just likes everyone that tries to kill her and sucks them into her orbit somehow. |
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Post by machival on Mar 25, 2015 23:04:08 GMT
What do you guys think is the probability of Anthony trying to kill his daughter? Given how many people have already tried to kill her? Personal bet would be that he's planning to mad science her, but loss of life wouldn't be intentional. I suspect that his attitude towards annie has more to do with him running away from his parenting responsibilities than straight up malice. |
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Post by psybershadow on Mar 25, 2015 23:05:05 GMT
LAUGHING ON LINE oh my God. Thanks guys that gave me a good laugh. And honestly it's pretty true, they always get sucked into her orbit. She's like a star with a wide habitable zone.
Edit: WAIT! What if he lost his hand from EXTREME SURGERY? Zimmyzam screwed it up while he was skydiving trying to etherically perform surgery on Annie
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Mar 25, 2015 23:18:57 GMT
No cookies yet, please! Not until we know if it's burned and/or bony! He may have lost his hand to a whale. A great white whale! |
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Post by machival on Mar 25, 2015 23:40:15 GMT
No cookies yet, please! Not until we know if it's burned and/or bony! He may have lost his hand to a whale. A great white whale! Perhaps he lost it after having his boat dashed against the rocks of Gunner's Crag by said white whale. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 26, 2015 0:09:07 GMT
The loss of the hand may explain why he's Mr. Carver instead of Dr. Carver now. Tough to be a surgeon with a prosthetic hand, If he can't be surgeon he should be able to dedicate himself to another branch of medicine. He would have to study to bridge specialties, but he doesn't look like the man that would leave medicine to avoid some academical study. Unless he was running away from medicine, and his failures to save his wife and cure his daughter added to the loss of hand-functionality just might give such a person reason to flee his previous life. So if he isn't using the title of Doctor then that *may* mean that he has abandoned medicine (see below). though the Court might be able to do something about that and that may offer an alternate explanation on why he's back. Although, a new hand might be the bribe that got him back to rein in Antimony or something, since the two possibilities aren't mutually exclusive. If they brought him to rein in Antimony, he's doing an awful job at that. Every person, furry, shadow or robot who cares for Annie will encourage her to not to care what he says. Assumption your part: Anthony is done, not just getting started. Abusers typically act to separate their targets from any sort of support mechanism, be it friends, family, social services or other groups. Let's wait a bit and see if he starts giving her detention, pulling her from field trips, denying her permission for parties, perhaps changing her living accommodations to solo, and so forth... Just to be a contrarian I'll mention that one theory I've had on where Anthony Carver has been all this time... at a Doctors without Borders or similar volunteer outpost. I understand...Was he stealing organs from poor children? Or maybe he has acquired a taste for human flesh and went to a place where corpses could be easily taken without nobody noticing? Because I don't think the went there to help people, honestly. You don't need to be a good person to purchase some indulgences. There are a number of places/institutions that sell "good deeds" that any passer-by can say they've taken part in for the price of a coin dropped into a jar or basket. But that sort of thing is for comfortable people. If someone's really been a complete douchebag and wants to earn big points the hard way, going to the far ends of the earth, putting themselves into physical danger, and facing hardship to do largely thankless tasks would be a way to do make themselves feel good about themselves again... The loss of the hand may explain why he's Mr. Carver instead of Dr. Carver now. Tough to be a surgeon with a prosthetic hand, though the Court might be able to do something about that and that may offer an alternate explanation on why he's back. Although, a new hand might be the bribe that got him back to rein in Antimony or something, since the two possibilities aren't mutually exclusive. Surgeons are historically referred to as "Mr" rather than "Dr", though "Dr" is more common today. It doesn't necessarily mean anything. I've read that posted on the forum and I tend to believe it, but Anthony Carver doesn't seem to interact informally very well, he likely clings to formally-structures to guide how interpersonal interactions and that honorific should be important to him... And I have trouble seeing him as one to give up an academic honorific easily anyway... So while it may mean nothing, the proper use of a formal title he's self-identifying with would seem to me to be perhaps (just perhaps) a guidepost to what he's doing with his career. Gave out all his love and cheer to help the needing of the world, leaving none for his precious daughter? Nah, I'm still betting on dedicated lifetime practitioner of Tossery. You think Surma would have married a dedicated tosser? When she had other choices available? People marry tossers all the time for various reasons. Maybe they think they can fix them, maybe they like how they look next to them because it makes their own tossery look less by comparison. Why do you think there are so many little tossers running around? |
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Post by Vilthuril on Mar 26, 2015 0:09:35 GMT
Well, he's making things clear: She has no right to info or thought or iunput on his life, and he has no right to info or thought or input on her life. Hopefully she will realize that and just ignore him from now on(*); sadly, she probably won't. (*If he's going to treat her like dirt in class, worse than the other students, and she reports it to the Court and - as likely - they won't do anything about it, just stop going to the class!)
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Post by todd on Mar 26, 2015 0:12:03 GMT
On a less morbid note, I'm getting really paranoid that Anthony is going to pull Annie from the Court or otherwise try to leverage his legal guardianship to fuck up her life (and probably make more attempts to violate her body/soul.) If this happens I am hoping so, so hard that the robot cult steps in and puts him down, because their credo is "She died and we did nothing," the wild girl who loved the Forest pinned by the cold scientist like a butterfly to a page either with an arrow or bone fingers from the sky, and they can't allow that to happen again. I doubt that we'll see Anthony taking Annie away from the Court, since that would make it difficult to continue the story (short of Tom shifting the protagonist role to Kat and transferring those functions that require an etheric girl to someone else, whether Paz or a new character - which would be awkward - or a big time skip). A failed attempt, maybe. I don't think the robots will get involved; their interest is in Kat, not Annie. (Unless they fear that losing her closest friend will send Kat into such a state of gloom that she won't care about her robot-building project any more and will neglect it.) |
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Post by KMar on Mar 26, 2015 2:01:49 GMT
Surgeons are historically referred to as "Mr" rather than "Dr", though "Dr" is more common today. It doesn't necessarily mean anything. I've read that posted on the forum and I tend to believe it, but Anthony Carver doesn't seem to interact informally very well, he likely clings to formally-structures to guide how interpersonal interactions and that honorific should be important to him... And I have trouble seeing him as one to give up an academic honorific easily anyway... So while it may mean nothing, the proper use of a formal title he's self-identifying with would seem to me to be perhaps (just perhaps) a guidepost to what he's doing with his career. Well I'm not from Britain or even English-speaking world, but I've got the impression that "Mr." would be the very formal formality for surgeon, only just an old and traditional one, so old that most people don't know the difference. As Wikipedia puts it, Emphasis mine. Maybe he would just consider people who wouldn't understood the prestige of being MRCS and allowed to call oneself a 'Mr.' ignorant and uncivilized? However, apparently there has been (was?) movement from 'Mr.' to 'Dr.' during the last decade or so, but maybe he is just a traditionalist. |
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Post by GK Sierra on Mar 26, 2015 2:18:49 GMT
If I was in Antimony's position the whole room would be on fire and I would be screaming and crying at this man. Is she really that cowed by him?
Like, fuck you buddy, you're my goddamn father, that's why its my business!
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Post by goldenknots on Mar 26, 2015 2:26:36 GMT
You think Surma would have married a dedicated tosser? When she had other choices available? Love makes you act in strange ways... |
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Post by TBeholder on Mar 26, 2015 2:43:37 GMT
A "Zimmy" with red hair, flaming fist, and a bleeding gash on her left cheek? Yeah, I rather think he could mistake her for Annie. Not seeing even flaming fist there. Tar pits for eyes and too many teeth, yes. And a bleeding gash on her left cheek (which Antimony onviously doesn't have). So all they had in common is red-black hair. Assuming he have seen (and/or heard) anything at all, that is. But there is nothing relaxed about Ysengrin mentioning Anthony Carver. On the contrary, the idea that Anthony Carver was there seems to make this a particular threat or attack against the Forest. So the connection between him and the Forest must have been of a particularly negative nature. It was his, ahem, silver bullet, yes. And, which is more interesting, got some noise from the Court folk - apparently Anthony is rather famous (or infamous). They may blame him for taking Surma away from both parties. Or anything else he did - or even what he didn't, because there are other interested parties and second-hand knowledge may still be... unreliable in better times. But we don't know much of what happened between Renard showing himself and him ending up imprisoned in the body of Sivo other that there obviously was some sort of a fight, and know nothing of Anthony's involvement until long after the end, when he's with Surma in Good Hope. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 26, 2015 2:51:01 GMT
Maybe he would just consider people who wouldn't understood the prestige of being MRCS and allowed to call oneself a 'Mr.' ignorant and uncivilized? However, apparently there has been (was?) movement from 'Mr.' to 'Dr.' during the last decade or so, but maybe he is just a traditionalist. My guess (based on other things) is that creeping American culture is to blame for the change, but would Anthony Carver know why that is happening? In America anyone can call themselves "Mr." and in some cases it is an insult (in military culture it can be disrespectful of rank for an NCO to call an officer that for example, or it is what a serviceman *can* call a civilian with the same inflection that a law enforcement officer can put on "sir" or the Japanese put on the suffix "-sama" to transform the honorific into something patronizing at best). That's why all things considered I'm still *leaning* toward the "Mister" being possibly significant along with whatever else might appear in the comic for evidence. |
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Post by snipertom on Mar 26, 2015 7:13:10 GMT
Maybe he would just consider people who wouldn't understood the prestige of being MRCS and allowed to call oneself a 'Mr.' ignorant and uncivilized? However, apparently there has been (was?) movement from 'Mr.' to 'Dr.' during the last decade or so, but maybe he is just a traditionalist. My guess (based on other things) is that creeping American culture is to blame for the change, but would Anthony Carver know why that is happening? In America anyone can call themselves "Mr." and in some cases it is an insult (in military culture it can be disrespectful of rank for an NCO to call an officer that for example, or it is what a serviceman *can* call a civilian with the same inflection that a law enforcement officer can put on "sir" or the Japanese put on the suffix "-sama" to transform the honorific into something patronizing at best). That's why all things considered I'm still *leaning* toward the "Mister" being possibly significant along with whatever else might appear in the comic for evidence. Actually, it's to reduce confusion. Most 'lay' people wouldn't understand the distinction between 'Mister' and 'Doctor' and honestly, who wants to spend tonnes of years training only to be called 'Miss'? Seriously! The original reason was that surgeons were actually barbers originally and thus they weren't 'good enough' to be 'real doctors'. It was retained as some sort of badge of pride, but honestly I'm kind of glad it's falling out of fashion. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 26, 2015 7:37:22 GMT
But there is nothing relaxed about Ysengrin mentioning Anthony Carver. On the contrary, the idea that Anthony Carver was there seems to make this a particular threat or attack against the Forest. So the connection between him and the Forest must have been of a particularly negative nature. It was his, ahem, silver bullet, yes. And, which is more interesting, got some noise from the Court folk - apparently Anthony is rather famous (or infamous). They may blame him for taking Surma away from both parties. Or anything else he did - or even what he didn't, because there are other interested parties and second-hand knowledge may still be... unreliable in better times. But we don't know much of what happened between Renard showing himself and him ending up imprisoned in the body of Sivo other that there obviously was some sort of a fight, and know nothing of Anthony's involvement until long after the end, when he's with Surma in Good Hope. No, we do not know what happened. But Ys's reaction to his name strongly suggests that it is more than that he knew this guy, namely, that he knew him as an antagonist of some sort. It does not prove that he's been involved in manoeuvres against the Forest, but that certainly is not implausible - particularly seen that the Renard coup was, also, an deliberate act of war by the Court. We do not know what has happened between Forest and Court back then, apart from the capture of Renard, but an isolated coup with no other conflicts around it makes little sense, so it is unlikely that it was the only one, and as Ys refers to Anthony as a particular there and seems to feel more negatively about Anthony than even Surma, even after he heard Surma tricked Rey away, it does give support, although no proof, for the theory that Anthony has been somehow and probably importantly involved in Court's anti-Forest actions. There's something there, not necessarily what I hypothesise, but that is a reasonable possibility. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Mar 26, 2015 7:44:27 GMT
My guess (based on other things) is that creeping American culture is to blame for the change, but would Anthony Carver know why that is happening? In America anyone can call themselves "Mr." and in some cases it is an insult (in military culture it can be disrespectful of rank for an NCO to call an officer that for example, or it is what a serviceman *can* call a civilian with the same inflection that a law enforcement officer can put on "sir" or the Japanese put on the suffix "-sama" to transform the honorific into something patronizing at best). That's why all things considered I'm still *leaning* toward the "Mister" being possibly significant along with whatever else might appear in the comic for evidence. Actually, it's to reduce confusion. Most 'lay' people wouldn't understand the distinction between 'Mister' and 'Doctor' and honestly, who wants to spend tonnes of years training only to be called 'Miss'? Seriously! The original reason was that surgeons were actually barbers originally and thus they weren't 'good enough' to be 'real doctors'. It was retained as some sort of badge of pride, but honestly I'm kind of glad it's falling out of fashion. Hmmm... this makes me think, we always see Anthony with his face perfectly shaved, so maybe it's because he's as proud of his terrifying skills of barbering as Ys is of his terrifying skills of gardening. Talking about terrifying skills of barbering, it is not all a joke. |
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Post by sidhekin on Mar 26, 2015 8:10:37 GMT
A "Zimmy" with red hair, flaming fist, and a bleeding gash on her left cheek? Yeah, I rather think he could mistake her for Annie. Not seeing even flaming fist there. Tar pits for eyes and too many teeth, yes. And a bleeding gash on her left cheek (which Antimony onviously doesn't have). So all they had in common is red-black hair. Assuming he have seen (and/or heard) anything at all, that is. Flaming fist by the left border: gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1044Annie with an obviously bleeding gash on her left cheek: gunnerkrigg.com/?p=141 |
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Post by rinabean on Mar 26, 2015 11:21:33 GMT
Not seeing even flaming fist there. Tar pits for eyes and too many teeth, yes. And a bleeding gash on her left cheek (which Antimony onviously doesn't have). So all they had in common is red-black hair. Assuming he have seen (and/or heard) anything at all, that is. Flaming fist by the left border: gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1044Annie with an obviously bleeding gash on her left cheek: gunnerkrigg.com/?p=141She got that off Jeanne, as you posted. This is the first time she's seen her dad since before she went to school and the cut can only be seen in the ether anyway. Gave out all his love and cheer to help the needing of the world, leaving none for his precious daughter? Nah, I'm still betting on dedicated lifetime practitioner of Tossery. You think Surma would have married a dedicated tosser? When she had other choices available? I'm telling you, there's more to this than meets the eye. Tony is deliberately pushing Annie away. Why, we don't know, but I suspect it is, or at least he strongly believes it is, for her benefit. Why wouldn't she marry a tosser? What makes anyone sure Surma is a nice person, either? Maybe she liked that about him. Unlike her dad, her mom did seem to really truly love Annie. But that in itself doesn't make someone a nice person. From what we know of her she was devious and violent. That's basically all we know about her. Kat's mom liked her but Kat's dad liked Anthony so... I have always wondered why the forest creatures feared Annie when everyone magically recognises her as her mom. It seems like it's because she's a human from the court but shouldn't they have liked Surma enough that it rubbed off on them? I wonder if Surma had been unpopular in the forest.
Little Annie was presumably told in the day that the woman would "leave" the next day. She wasn't dead when she was told this or she'd have been moved to the morgue. The psychopomp only comes after they die but the woman was not dead when Anthony said she was going to "leave". Therefore he predicted her death the next morning/removal the next day. Still I don't think it's suspicious, I imagine she was in a bad way. You can be evil without going round poisoning old ladies in hospital. |
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Pig_catapult
Full Member
Keeper of the Devilkitty
Posts: 171
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Post by Pig_catapult on Mar 26, 2015 11:28:43 GMT
We do not know what has happened between Forest and Court back then, apart from the capture of Renard, but an isolated coup with no other conflicts around it makes little sense, so it is unlikely that it was the only one, and as Ys refers to Anthony as a particular there and seems to feel more negatively about Anthony than even Surma, even after he heard Surma tricked Rey away, it does give support, although no proof, for the theory that Anthony has been somehow and probably importantly involved in Court's anti-Forest actions. There's something there, not necessarily what I hypothesise, but that is a reasonable possibility. Gonna throw a dart at the board and suggest that Anthony is the reason Ys is missing an ear. |
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