[1492] Let Me Restate

[Alex]

Can someone remind me which chapter the Zimmy confrontation was in so I don't have to do a ton of searching?

[pasko]

Mar 25, 2015 9:09:11 GMT Alex said:

Can someone remind me which chapter the Zimmy confrontation was in so I don't have to do a ton of searching?

Divine.

[keef]

So he put his hand in the fire, and now is angry it burned him?

He probably has "Not A Very Nice Person At All" written on his wallet.

Annie's face in panel two is heartbreaking.

[cu]

Tom must be having a blast with the forum comments these days, and knowing in advance what comes next. I can imagine him cackling madly, all pointy teeth and stumpy hands and surrounded by a flock of mad dancing pigeons.

[Pig_catapult]

Gonna say that them bones in Annie's chest in Divine were literally the etherically-distorted phalanges of Anthony's right hand, and being grabbed by Zimmy mucked them up really bad. It's prolly been said before by someone else, but I'm saying it too now.

[arf]

If Tony blamed Annie for his hand, he would have said something like "Hand? Oh yes. In fact, it's my *hand* I wanted to have a word with you about, young lady...".

Instead he says "Not your concern... business". The correction struck me as a tacit admission that maybe his daughter did have a right to be concerned, even if he didn't want to talk about it. (He could possibly be embarrassed by/ashamed of how it happened)

Katsuvius is blowing in 3...2..

[csj]

Mar 25, 2015 8:03:30 GMT Daedalus said:

Mar 25, 2015 7:40:33 GMT csj said:

He is not someone that likes being fingered.

:/

You're thinking about it that way, aren't you

No, I don't know that from personal experience

[arf]

Mar 25, 2015 10:14:30 GMT Pig_catapult said:

Gonna say that them bones in Annie's chest in Divine were literally the etherically-distorted phalanges of Anthony's right hand, and being grabbed by Zimmy mucked them up really bad. It's prolly been said before by someone else, but I'm saying it too now.

Yep. Probably just as well to have it stated outright.

[sidhekin]

Mar 25, 2015 10:16:25 GMT csj said:

Mar 25, 2015 8:03:30 GMT Daedalus said:

:/

You're thinking about it that way, aren't you

No, I don't know that from personal experience

sidhekin@purplehat[11:18:16]~$ finger Anthony
finger: Anthony: no such user.
sidhekin@purplehat[11:18:34]~$

[cu]

Mar 25, 2015 10:19:16 GMT sidhekin said:

sidhekin@purplehat[11:18:16]~$ finger Anthony
finger: Anthony: no such user.
sidhekin@purplehat[11:18:34]~$

Spoilered for language:

SPOILER: Click to show

Maybe it is a privilege issue, you should try escalating:

$ alias fuck=sudo
$ fuck finger Anthony


[Jelly Jellybean]

Now I wonder if Anthony may have already written off Annie as beyond hope...

I assumed that Anthony came back to save Annie from her fire-elemental self.  But after the events in Divine he may have realized that Annie didn't want to be saved and therefore could not be saved.  If Annie has embraced her etheric self, then she's dead to him.

Returning to the Court to teach after the loss of his right hand may have been one of his few acceptable options.  Maybe teaching her Biology class is an unfortunate happenstance.  He wrote her off, and now she's staring right at him.  Maybe if he's an A-hole, Annie will drop the class.  Maybe he also realized that Headmaster made him teach this Biology class of spite.

[xtinas]

Eurgh. If that really was Tony's actual hand piercing Annie's fire-elemental aspect, then that would be a horrible invasion (by her father), and any sympathy I may have had for Tony would evaporate in a hot second. Because eff a bunch of that nonsense.

[ryrmyrbyr]

Mar 25, 2015 11:31:02 GMT xtinas said:

Eurgh. If that really was Tony's actual hand piercing Annie's fire-elemental aspect, then that would be a horrible invasion (by her father), and any sympathy I may have had for Tony would evaporate in a hot second.

How long had annie been comatose? That is one long surgery.

[lunaleaf]

Mar 25, 2015 11:31:02 GMT xtinas said:

Eurgh. If that really was Tony's actual hand piercing Annie's fire-elemental aspect, then that would be a horrible invasion (by her father), and any sympathy I may have had for Tony would evaporate in a hot second. Because eff a bunch of that nonsense.

I love your profile picture- I've only started watching that series, but it's very good so far. c:

Also, I have to agree. There's a sort of... impersonal feel if he's using surgery or even dissection instruments... his bare hands are something very different altogether. That makes it personal, and when the action in question is strangling the life out of someone's soul, I'm not inclined to be forgiving of the idea. I'm still waiting to see where this goes, but it's pretty evident that Tony is not getting any redemption any time soon.

[zimmyzims]

So, I earlier distinguished two interpretations of "is it your business":

1. It is not your business! In this reading, regardless of why he's lost his hand, he is annoyed that Annie asks about it and wants her to stop that, so he can get to the actual business - after all, there is some reason why he asked Annie to stay after the class, and it thus is not the hand. Next page, "Thought so, now I wanted to talk to you about..."

2. Do you have something to do with what happened to it? In this reading, he thinks he lost the hand because of Annie (really because of Zimmy), and that actually is either the very reason why he asked Annie to stay after the class or at minimum something he'd like to hear about, so he is actually asking that from Annie. Next page: "Are you sure you did not have something to do with it? Try to stretch your memory, young lady... what happened when you were in hospital after I called you?"

Now, if the second was the case, it would seem wrong, albeit normal, to be annoyed with Annie asking about it, as that is what he actually wanted to talk about and it was his own fault to begin with.

However, it seems that people (initially) read this according to the first interpretation and think that his grumpiness in reaction to that sympathetic question makes Anthony (more of a) jerk. This is very unsympathetic moral posing from the part of the readers whom I doubt would act much better in the situation. In a state of already suffering physical or mental irritation, people are more reactive to new irritations. One has to do to less to get a person who is already irritated, say, for physical pain, to show his irritation and react negatively, simply because the level needed for that reaction is already close to be satisfied, or indeed is satisfied already and you're just milking it. Having lost his hand, probably pretty recently, must still give him relatively high level of physical irritation, to which only adds the mental frustration of being unable to continue his work as a surgeon. he is already pretty irritated, and when he wants to talk to Annie about something else, Annie keeps on asking about that hand, as if it didn't already irritate him enough. That is only likely to squeeze out a grumpy reaction, especially from a person who is not keen to be pitied, but rather wants to continue as respected individual. For comparison, think of your own reaction sensitivity when having an empty stomach, a head ache, having hit your toe, failed an exam or maybe dislocated your shoulder. You're trying to move on to continue your business, and the person you try to talk to keeps on pointing at your failed exam or sore toe. Then consider that the irritation that Anthony is having is probably times greater than any such that you could imagine having in an everyday situation.

Now, the prior irritation does in no way justify blaming the other person for the whole of your irritation to which (s)he is clearly not guilty. The prior level was not his/her fault, and you should be able to apologise for your reaction and explain to this person that it is not really his/her fault, it is just easy to get to your nerves in these circumstances, and others should avoid that. However, that other person should indeed avoid irritating you more in that situation, and is to be blamed exactly for that.

So, that's why I rather agree with Tom's comment, "fair point".

However, I'm keen to think that the second interpretation is the true one, mostly because this seems very plausible theory to me now:

Mar 25, 2015 10:14:30 GMT Pig_catapult said:

Gonna say that them bones in Annie's chest in Divine were literally the etherically-distorted phalanges of Anthony's right hand, and being grabbed by Zimmy mucked them up really bad. It's prolly been said before by someone else, but I'm saying it too now.

There are five bones stuck to Annie in the Divine, and these bones do look like
phalanges - and it would make sense that if he was operating her through some etheric science, he had his hands on her. This concreteness of operating her also explains the anaesthesia that the "coma", which always effectively was just being asleep, would have been. She had to be asleep to be operated. I wish we'll learn what he tried to do. This is getting very interesting.

[noone3]

"This, and 50 points from Queslett!"

[Aura]

Did anyone bring up the point of Anthony's message in Microsat 5? It looks like he was getting surgical tools. Do you think his hand could have been...uh...gone (for lack of a better word) by then? And if you look closely at the pic of Zimmy punching Anthony in Divine, you can see a blood stain on the side of his jacket-thing and also no hand. Interesting no?

In short, I don't think Zimmy is responsible for the missing hand.

(Also a bit of devil's advocate here: has anyone considered the possibility that Anthony is autistic? I see a lot of hate towards him in the comments, but autistic people have difficulty expressing emotions and considering the feelings of others etc. Sure he's a total Lord Farquaad, but maybe that could explain his behaviour?)

[snipertom]

The loss of one's hand, to a surgeon, isn't just disastrous and career ending but the kind of thing that would be full of grief- loss of identity, loss of agency, etc
I don't think Zimmy or Annie caused that injury, for the reasons that Aura has pointed out, among other things
I think Anthony's deep into *something*- dangerous, important, possibly weird and creepy
Regardless it doesn't excuse his behaviour towards his daughter

[darlos9d]

Mar 25, 2015 9:36:36 GMT keef said:

So he put his hand in the fire, and now is angry it burned him?

He probably has "Not A Very Nice Person At All" written on his wallet.

Annie's face in panel two is heartbreaking.

This. This so much. That frazzled smile. She wants to love and respect him so much.

[snoodette]

There is something about Anthony's face in the second panel that makes me wonder if he was going to try and explain/connect with Annie and then got annoyed when she started blurting on about his hand. It looks a bit softer, and possibly slightly anxious, compared to some of the other panels, especially later on that page where he once again looks very stern and cross. I'm hoping that that won't turn out to be their one chance to reconnect gone for good.

[zimmyzims]

Mar 25, 2015 13:13:34 GMT Aura said:

Did anyone bring up the point of Anthony's message in Microsat 5? It looks like he was getting surgical tools. Do you think his hand could have been...uh...gone (for lack of a better word) by then?

This, I think, was suggested by.... imaginaryfriend? Possibly others, too.

Mar 25, 2015 13:13:34 GMT Aura said:

And if you look closely at the pic of Zimmy punching Anthony in Divine, you can see a blood stain on the side of his jacket-thing and also no hand. Interesting no?

No hand, yes... interesting, but I cannot see the blood stain. Can you somehow help me see it?

However, in this case, why the "bone laser" operation? It followed directly after the Micro Sat 5. So why did he need to do that to Annie in order to operate his own hand?

Mar 25, 2015 13:13:34 GMT Aura said:

has anyone considered the possibility that Anthony is autistic? I see a lot of hate towards him in the comments, but autistic people have difficulty expressing emotions and considering the feelings of others etc. Sure he's a total Lord Farquaad, but maybe that could explain his behaviour?)

This was discussed in one of the recent threads I think. There was discussion about whether an autistic person could teach and such, I recall. So, some support this theory.

[zimmyzims]

Mar 25, 2015 13:27:03 GMT snoodette said:

There is something about Anthony's face in the second panel that makes me wonder if he was going to try and explain/connect with Annie and then got annoyed when she started blurting on about his hand. It looks a bit softer, and possibly slightly anxious, compared to some of the other panels, especially later on that page where he once again looks very stern and cross. I'm hoping that that won't turn out to be their one chance to reconnect gone for good.

Exactly. It is only after she states it the second time that he starts to look annoyed. Annie should get her act together. If he was able to just that easily talk about things that he experienced during his leave, maybe he would have also mentioned some in a post card. That he never sent a one might signal something.

[jocobo]

Mar 25, 2015 13:27:03 GMT snoodette said:

There is something about Anthony's face in the second panel that makes me wonder if he was going to try and explain/connect with Annie and then got annoyed when she started blurting on about his hand. It looks a bit softer, and possibly slightly anxious, compared to some of the other panels, especially later on that page where he once again looks very stern and cross. I'm hoping that that won't turn out to be their one chance to reconnect gone for good.

First, Hi everyone!

Second, I had noticed his expression completely shifted once class was over. But the shift I find more interesting is between "Is it your concern" and "Is it your business?". He still looks relatively calm after she asks. He's not looking directly at her and still seems to me more focused on whatever it is he is writing.  His expression only shifts back to stern when she points out that she actually does have a legitimate concern. It's only then that he shifts back to a more harsh expression.

Maybe he was interpretation that as an admission of guilt for the events of Divine, or maybe he was just annoyed that his daughter actually had a good point.

[jocobo]

Mar 25, 2015 13:35:34 GMT zimmyzims said:

Mar 25, 2015 13:27:03 GMT snoodette said:

There is something about Anthony's face in the second panel that makes me wonder if he was going to try and explain/connect with Annie and then got annoyed when she started blurting on about his hand. It looks a bit softer, and possibly slightly anxious, compared to some of the other panels, especially later on that page where he once again looks very stern and cross. I'm hoping that that won't turn out to be their one chance to reconnect gone for good.

Exactly. It is only after she states it the second time that he starts to look annoyed. Annie should get her act together. If he was able to just that easily talk about things that he experienced during his leave, maybe he would have also mentioned some in a post card. That he never sent a one might signal something.

But she only states her concerns a  second time because he asks her is it her concern. IF he really wanted to not talk about it, he should have simply said he didn't wish to discuss it. He shouldn't have asked the question if he didn't want an honest answer.


Edit: Another thought I've had is that it's very strange he keeps the hand hidden the entire class. I'm willing to bet he might have sent her out while handing out books so she wouldn't see it. Yet he removes it form his pocket the second they are alone. Anthony is nothing if not exact and meticulous. He seems very measured and calculating. So why even risk Annie seeing it if he didn't want her to? Was this a momentary lapse, a sign he lets his guard down around his daughter even if only slightly? Or was he intentionally baiting her into asking to gauge her reaction?

[zimmyzims]

Mar 25, 2015 13:41:31 GMT jocobo said:

Mar 25, 2015 13:35:34 GMT zimmyzims said:

Exactly. It is only after she states it the second time that he starts to look annoyed. Annie should get her act together. If he was able to just that easily talk about things that he experienced during his leave, maybe he would have also mentioned some in a post card. That he never sent a one might signal something.

But she only states her concerns a  second time because he asks her is it her concern. IF he really wanted to not talk about it, he should have simply said he didn't wish to discuss it. He shouldn't have asked the question if he didn't want an honest answer.


Edit: Another thought I've had is that it's very strange he keeps the hand hidden the entire class. I'm willing to bet he might have sent her out while handing out books so she wouldn't see it. Yet he removes it form his pocket the second they are alone. Anthony is nothing if not exact and meticulous. He seems very measured and calculating. So why even risk Annie seeing it if he didn't want her to? Was this a momentary lapse, a sign he lets his guard down around his daughter even if only slightly? Or was he intentionally baiting her into asking to gauge her reaction?

Or then he exactly wants to talk about the hand and is asking what business does Annie have with him losing it? But why to hide it again, then? That suggests it was a lapse, as you say, but that would seem to support sonnet's interpretation that he was about to connect more, more relaxed manner, but Annie just immediately got him annoyed by poking that irritation point.

[lit]

Mar 25, 2015 13:13:34 GMT Aura said:

(Also a bit of devil's advocate here: has anyone considered the possibility that Anthony is autistic? I see a lot of hate towards him in the comments, but autistic people have difficulty expressing emotions and considering the feelings of others etc. Sure he's a total Lord Farquaad, but maybe that could explain his behaviour?)

It's been discussed. Autism doesn't make people horrible though. We have some people on the spectrum who frequent the forum and personally I would prefer to defer to their analysis on this.

[KMar]

Mar 25, 2015 13:41:31 GMT jocobo said:

Mar 25, 2015 13:35:34 GMT zimmyzims said:

Exactly. It is only after she states it the second time that he starts to look annoyed. Annie should get her act together. If he was able to just that easily talk about things that he experienced during his leave, maybe he would have also mentioned some in a post card. That he never sent a one might signal something.

But she only states her concerns a  second time because he asks her is it her concern. IF he really wanted to not talk about it, he should have simply said he didn't wish to discuss it. He shouldn't have asked the question if he didn't want an honest answer.

This makes me wonder...

Suppose he lost his hand in connection of events of Divine, but doesn't exactly know who or what hit him in the face during the operation, causing its abrupt termination (that had disastrous side effects concerning his hand-turn-into-bone-laser); he would want to know if Annie knows (so he tries to probe for her reaction with "is it your concern"), without revealing it was him if she doesn't know. However, he also is angry about that and didn't plan this turn of discussion (which occurs because he slipped and accidentally revealed his hand, after he so carefully kept it hidden in his pocket all the time Annie was present in the classroom), which combined with his already established levels in "being a jerk" and/or "antisocial", causes him to make mistakes (internal monologue "****** Tony, shouldn't said concerns, so let me restate"). All the above, and the result is the dialogue we see.

[hypixion]

Mar 25, 2015 7:26:27 GMT zimmyzims said:

Hmm... maybe I'm wrong, maybe this was straight to the business... maybe "let me restate" is indeed the key: this should not be interpreted as him being annoyed of the question, but as seizing the chance to interrogate his daughter about her possible involvement in the accident that lost him his hand.

That said, I understand that losing your hand must be extremely annoying, but if it is as a result of executing an operation on someone without her knowing about it, let alone giving her consent, it should in aftermath be clear that it is not to be blamed on her and should be considered as a materialisation of a deliberately taken risk. It is not many who would do so, obviously people usually do blame others when their reactions cause their deliberately taken risks to materialise to their own damage. I'm not sure if this is about that, I mean, it is not obvious what is the reason of this interrogation, if it is interrogation, because there's at least the obvious possibility that whether or not Annie could have acted in the way to attack him etherically like that (the Zimmy-punch) would be important information for future action.

Hmm.... him writing suggests perhaps rather the latter reason than the former. If he was just annoyed about that, what would be the meaning of this writing? Perhaps he's indeed already over his irritation with what happened and thinking of the next step. The theory that Anthony is already in a war appeals to me more and more. Maybe there is a lot of hidden manoeuvre's that are not visible to the children yet, the relations between the Court and the Forest even more tense than what they seem, or the tensions indeed having already broken into unofficial conflicts.

I remind everybody, once again, of this.

I don't see why he would say "it's not her business" when he is going to interrogate her about the cause of it. I think he just doesn't want any parental involvement with Annie anymore? Also, he probably knows that Annie didn't do it because of Zimmy personally delivering the message.

What if the bones that went inside Annie her the ones of his arm, and because of the connection being severed his hand is still inside Annie? Or lost in the ether. Was this said already?
Edit: I should really read the thread before posting.

About the writing, it could be just detention. I don't think there is anything behind this at the moment. No message or anything, there a thousand betten, more hidden and safer ways to give Annie message then this. The court will find out with all the security around the school.

[zimmyzims]

Mar 25, 2015 14:30:18 GMT hypixion said:

Mar 25, 2015 7:26:27 GMT zimmyzims said:

Hmm... maybe I'm wrong, maybe this was straight to the business... maybe "let me restate" is indeed the key: this should not be interpreted as him being annoyed of the question, but as seizing the chance to interrogate his daughter about her possible involvement in the accident that lost him his hand.

That said, I understand that losing your hand must be extremely annoying, but if it is as a result of executing an operation on someone without her knowing about it, let alone giving her consent, it should in aftermath be clear that it is not to be blamed on her and should be considered as a materialisation of a deliberately taken risk. It is not many who would do so, obviously people usually do blame others when their reactions cause their deliberately taken risks to materialise to their own damage. I'm not sure if this is about that, I mean, it is not obvious what is the reason of this interrogation, if it is interrogation, because there's at least the obvious possibility that whether or not Annie could have acted in the way to attack him etherically like that (the Zimmy-punch) would be important information for future action.

Hmm.... him writing suggests perhaps rather the latter reason than the former. If he was just annoyed about that, what would be the meaning of this writing? Perhaps he's indeed already over his irritation with what happened and thinking of the next step. The theory that Anthony is already in a war appeals to me more and more. Maybe there is a lot of hidden manoeuvre's that are not visible to the children yet, the relations between the Court and the Forest even more tense than what they seem, or the tensions indeed having already broken into unofficial conflicts.

I remind everybody, once again, of this.

I don't see why he would say "it's not her business" when he is going to interrogate her about the cause of it.

And lo' and behold, he doesn't!

Mar 25, 2015 14:30:18 GMT hypixion said:

I think he just doesn't want any parental involvement with Annie anymore? Also, he probably knows that Annie didn't do it because of Zimmy personally delivering the message.

It is very unconfirmed whether he knows what hit him.

Mar 25, 2015 14:30:18 GMT hypixion said:

What if the bones that went inside Annie her the ones of his arm, and because of the connection being severed his hand is still inside Annie? Or lost in the ether. Was this said already?
Edit: I should really read the thread before posting.

i don't think this has been proposed yet. The bones being left in Annie part. Interesting idea. The lost in ether would seem somewhat logical possibility to me, as the operation was somehow ethnical, and personally I doubted how Zimmy could have actually hit him in a way that leaves a mark visible outside ether vision.

Mar 25, 2015 14:30:18 GMT hypixion said:

About the writing, it could be just detention. I don't think there is anything behind this at the moment. No message or anything, there a thousand betten, more hidden and safer ways to give Annie message then this. The court will find out with all the security around the school.

Not sure why it wouldn't be safe if he passed the message to her personally when they're together. All he has to be able to trust is that Annie doesn't lose the message. I'm quite sure that that writing means something here.

[dizzywig]

What if...his hand is the same wooden hand that was sealed underneath the Court? Wearing a glove over it and trying not to use it, so he forcefully told Annie off to keep her out of it. Baseless speculation on my part, but I'd like to believe he came back for a reason, and is treating Annie the way he does with some intent in mind...