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Post by bluevitriol on Nov 29, 2013 15:59:35 GMT
But this is Renard. And already the last page you saw he was dragging this to the general direction of "people are evil, you are good, but people are evil", with which the continuation about Kat's voice surviving even suppression of mean people suits nicely. I can see the dialogue going in that direction, but it doesn't change the fact that what's in this page is plain hamfisted. I think some people are having a hard time with Tom adding societal normalcy to the comic when it has, for the most part, been all about the normalization of deviance. One mention from Renard... A FOX GOD, that someone from the court may be against the grain of deviance- that said person being herself a fire-elemental that uses etheric magick, and some people come unglued because of a perceived intrusion into their bubble. A person can change their ways or beliefs, a person can be rational and caring. People as a whole aren't. For example: The World we live in. Too many to cite here and if you haven't seen any of it then you are blind. It is these same people that get angry when another government has laws they don't like and think that the freedoms they get from their country allow them to try to dictate what an entire other nation or people can and cant do. This is not Ham-fisted at all, there is no bungling or clumsy attempt. Renard has made his statements succinctly. Just because some people are hurt at what he says doesn't make him wrong, nor make it okay to ridicule what is said. Since peeps are liking to quote I'll give you an appropriate one: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow." ~ K, A.K.A. Tommy Lee Jones "Men in Black" |
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Post by Señor Goose on Nov 29, 2013 16:01:39 GMT
I don't get that impression. It was Kat who brought up the topic of Annie, and Reynardine, seemed like he was looking for a way to downplay things. I still hold the opinion that Annie probably just left cause catching you friends in the act of making' out is hella awkward....as I said several threads ago. Imagine if Annie had seen Kat and Paz deep in a loving embrace, and rushed over to shove her nose into their business. There's a term that describes that kind of behavior; I'll give you a hint, it ends in "-blocked" and girls tend to lack the anatomy of the first half. But if it was just awkward, why run and disappear for hours? I'd understand if it was just for a little bit and not so hard to find... It's entirely possible that Annie just ran off somewhere that by circumstance, Kat wasn't likely to look in. Also possible: next Monday Kat looks up and sees Annie, who's been behind the door the whole time. |
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Post by quinkgirl on Nov 29, 2013 16:04:28 GMT
But if it was just awkward, why run and disappear for hours? I'd understand if it was just for a little bit and not so hard to find... It's entirely possible that Annie just ran off somewhere that by circumstance, Kat wasn't likely to look in. Also possible: next Monday Kat looks up and sees Annie, who's been behind the door the whole time. And holding a "It's not my blood" face? |
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Post by Señor Goose on Nov 29, 2013 16:15:31 GMT
It's entirely possible that Annie just ran off somewhere that by circumstance, Kat wasn't likely to look in. Also possible: next Monday Kat looks up and sees Annie, who's been behind the door the whole time. And holding a "It's not my blood" face? Probably more of a "Oh hey Kat... I didn't see you there" face. |
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Post by quinkgirl on Nov 29, 2013 16:16:36 GMT
And holding a "It's not my blood" face? Probably more of a "Oh hey Kat... I didn't see you there" face. Ah yes, sheepish of her terrible hiding spot worthy of boxbot.  |
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Post by hypetrain on Nov 29, 2013 16:30:35 GMT
 The dude's talking out of his ass. |
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Post by GK Sierra on Nov 29, 2013 16:52:55 GMT
Normalization of deviance is just a precise wording for "shit gets less weird over time yo" so people can talk about the processes by which for example dressing in nothing but underwear* went from being scandalous to acceptable, without getting caught up in definitions. Or if you want a more on-topic example, the changes in societal views which today allows Rupaul to be a successful recording artist while being a molly three centuries ago was a capital offence. I was expecting Rey to carry on from what he said on the previous page with something to the effect of "a lot of shit people do isn't normal, don't sweat it", instead we get "a voice will never be silenced when it has something to say" which is demonstrably untrue. (*t-shirts) Yes, he could have worded it better, and I don't really see what he was referring to when he said that line, but it did zoom in on the books so perhaps Renard is talking about all the light reading he's done while he is cooped up inside an oil drilling platform. At any rate, it is not "provably untrue", only iffy. If you have something to say and you say it loud enough you can live forever in the memory of others. We're still quoting Confucius and Sun-Tzu today. They made it. So did Jesus. Either way, I think you're blowing the ham-fisted quotient way out of proportion. As dialogue goes, it was a 6/10 AT VERY WORST. There are many movies, games and tv shows where the dialogue never rises above 3/10. |
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Post by Elysium on Nov 29, 2013 16:59:39 GMT
Keep in mind that Renard knows a thing or two about not playing in the same league as everybody else, being very interested in the court and its humans when the forest was more on the hate end of the scale.
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Post by hypetrain on Nov 29, 2013 17:17:51 GMT
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eskhn
Full Member
You like 'em? Huh? You like 'em?
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Post by eskhn on Nov 29, 2013 17:34:32 GMT
Off the top of their heads, does anyone know if Westboro (or someone else) did something particularly heinous 3-4 months ago (when this arc was written) to warrant this?
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Post by GK Sierra on Nov 29, 2013 17:42:30 GMT
I don't know what you're trying to say here. People with a message can make that message immortal. Just not without a great amount of effort or luck.
I think I'll leave the "kill yourself" experiment to you. I've got too much to live for.
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Post by legion on Nov 29, 2013 17:55:31 GMT
Stop feeding the troll, wait for Tom to ban him.
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Post by philman on Nov 29, 2013 17:57:59 GMT
Off the top of their heads, does anyone know if Westboro (or someone else) did something particularly heinous 3-4 months ago (when this arc was written) to warrant this? Hmm, that was around the time the gay marriage law was passed in parliament in the UK, to much chagrin from the conservative right. (including one former minister who said that t would now be legal for him to marry his son to avoid inheritance tax...) |
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eskhn
Full Member
You like 'em? Huh? You like 'em?
Posts: 167
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Post by eskhn on Nov 29, 2013 18:03:14 GMT
(including one former minister who said that t would now be legal for him to marry his son to avoid inheritance tax...) Well, if he was that impatient, he could have just married his daughter instead. |
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Post by philman on Nov 29, 2013 18:17:30 GMT
(including one former minister who said that t would now be legal for him to marry his son to avoid inheritance tax...) Well, if he was that impatient, he could have just married his daughter instead. indeed. I don't think the newspapers even bothered to point that out it was so obvious. just printed his quote and let everyone else in the country work out within seconds the flaw in his argument... I hadn't thought about that in terms of what was in the news when he was writing. it could be a factor I suppose in terms of focusing on it slightly longer than it would do otherwise. |
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eskhn
Full Member
You like 'em? Huh? You like 'em?
Posts: 167
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Post by eskhn on Nov 29, 2013 18:31:45 GMT
Well, if he was that impatient, he could have just married his daughter instead. indeed. I don't think the newspapers even bothered to point that out it was so obvious. just printed his quote and let everyone else in the country work out within seconds the flaw in his argument... I hadn't thought about that in terms of what was in the news when he was writing. it could be a factor I suppose in terms of focusing on it slightly longer than it would do otherwise. Well, he's bringing the real world into the Court in this arc (and a lot more than usual), so I'd imagine something happened to cause that. There's always been that theme of embracing what you don't understand instead of shunning it, but now it's using a really current issue for that, and I think it's starting to get dangerously close to a PSA/"very special episode". |
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Post by wynne on Nov 29, 2013 18:33:41 GMT
But if it was just awkward, why run and disappear for hours? I'd understand if it was just for a little bit and not so hard to find... Because her best friend is making out with someone hard core? I've gotta tell you, when my two best friends suddenly entered pretty intense/pda-filled relationships (none of us had dated before that time), there was a long and awkward adjustment period. And I'm friends (or at least on good terms) with their significant others. She might just not know how to react to this kind of thing, so she's running away and keeping some space until they figure it out. After all, we know that she handled Parley and Smitty's declarations of love so well. And she actively wanted those two to get together. Honestly, I just can't (won't?) believe that Annie would be homophobic about this. I just can't. Annie grew up outside of the Court, sure, but she also grew up in a hospital, with old people and dead spirit guides as her only friends. She's used to seeing "weird" stuff, she's used to being singled out for her own weirdness, and she's used to taking people/things as they are. If she doesn't bat an eye at Zimmy and Gamma, or even Red and Blue, I don't see her being homophobic towards Kat. I do see her not knowing how to handle the possibility that she might lose her best friend to someone else, and being upset about that. And it's gotta be magnified now that they're roommates. Best case crack scenario: Annie's actually thrilled that Kat got together with Paz, because now she feels like she doesn't have to hide her hot forest boyfriend from Kat. She just left to go get Kamlen or something. |
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Post by legion on Nov 29, 2013 18:46:41 GMT
As for Annie's attitude, perhaps it should be remembered that there are degrees of homophobia: someone can feel unconfortable with the idea of homosexuality without holding any consciously formulated anti-gay prejudice, let alone any desire or intent to hurt gay people.
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chaosvii
Junior Member
I absolutely did not expect this!
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Post by chaosvii on Nov 29, 2013 19:13:17 GMT
Keep in mind that Renard knows a thing or two about not playing in the same league as everybody else, being very interested in the court and its humans when the forest was more on the hate end of the scale. Exactly, this is the perspective of a social outcast that has internalized the claims that he is a murderer, that the human woman he loved purposefully seduced him into staying in the court and instead loved a human man that he perceived as callous & lacking emotions, and that the entire court wishes to restrain him despite his current desire to stay in the court peacefully & honor their laws more or less. Note that he prefers humans to the forest, and given the chance to dwell among humans continues to do so. He no longer takes opportunities to escape now that he is regarded as a parolee on an exceptionally flexible house arrest rather than a fugitive. The guy loves humans, especially when they're at their best, but he's been burned by almost every human he's ever known AND their friends AND their acquaintances prior to meeting Antimony. And even she was cruel to him, but at least she defends him from the court so that he has the option of dwelling among humans as a not-so-fugitive. He's yet to request of Annie to go to back to the Forest. Add to that the witnessing of the Court vs Forest hostilities, of which he's not been on the Forest's side, and it's hard to imagine the guy doing anything but give his personal perspective that all societies suck, because that's what he's always known. But talking about how the Forest is filled with jerkbags too is redundant, because Kat has already been raised to never interact with it. She only knows how humans do things, so Rey talks about humans being jerkbags when Kat says that she's worried about being even more of an outcast than she already is, being rejected by the people she values the most. Something that Rey has experienced, but eventually endured. I mean he's in the same room as that guy, so he knows that problems can be amended, but first you have to steel yourself against the fact that people you care about have hurt you, and seek comfort in the fact that they won't always hurt you. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2013 19:14:38 GMT
This page is getting dangerously close to preaching territory. "A voice will never be silenced when it has something to say"? Very heavy handed, mildly disappointed. Just having gay characters was great without being in your face about it, but now Tom's just decided to explicitly state the reasons for homophobia being bad.
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chaosvii
Junior Member
I absolutely did not expect this!
Posts: 84
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Post by chaosvii on Nov 29, 2013 19:20:00 GMT
This page is getting dangerously close to preaching territory. "A voice will never be silenced when it has something to say"? Very heavy handed, mildly disappointed. Just having gay characters was great without being in your face about it, but now Tom's just decided to explicitly state the reasons for homophobia being bad. I challenge you to impress me with a definition of "being in your face about it" that still fits with the way you've used it here. |
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Post by bykerhill on Nov 29, 2013 19:24:54 GMT
Something I think we should keep in mind is that Renard, even if he's looking very dignified and serious at the moment, is a fictional character in this comic. He is not Tom's mouthpiece. He has his own views, shortcomings, and agendas that may not match Tom's. (or yours!) He has his own reasons for thinking and pushing 'humans can be cruel' that don't have a thing to do with homophobia, and his character is such that he likes that 'voices never die' melodrama. That doesn't mean it's TRUE or that it's even what Tom believes or wants you to believe. It means Renard thought it sounded like a good thing to say. That's it.
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chaosvii
Junior Member
I absolutely did not expect this!
Posts: 84
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Post by chaosvii on Nov 29, 2013 19:30:07 GMT
He has his own reasons for thinking and pushing 'humans can be cruel' that don't have a thing to do with homophobia, and his character is such that he likes that 'voices never die' melodrama. For all we know it could literally be true in this fictional universe wherein deities might be made out of dead people's beliefs that become etheric power or whatever Coyote was getting at. |
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Post by nero on Nov 29, 2013 19:32:25 GMT
Annie is shocked and she doesn't know how to react when suddenly her friend isn't the same anymore. Annie might be
thinking how this will affect her interactions with Kat. She probably doesn't know how to deal with a change in her friendship with Kat.
She just needs some time before she can face Kat, some time to feel sure that Kat is still her friend and Annie can be a friend back to
her without hurting Kat in any way. I believe that Annie is not homophobic she just hasn't ever thought that her best friend would be with
a girl.
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Post by lordofpotatoes on Nov 29, 2013 19:38:16 GMT
And on monday we'll find out that Annie is actually a catholic christian conservative who will now become superevangelical about her beliefs...
Obviously kidding, but imagine if...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2013 19:43:40 GMT
This page is getting dangerously close to preaching territory. "A voice will never be silenced when it has something to say"? Very heavy handed, mildly disappointed. Just having gay characters was great without being in your face about it, but now Tom's just decided to explicitly state the reasons for homophobia being bad. I challenge you to impress me with a definition of "being in your face about it" that still fits with the way you've used it here. It's just a question of how upfront Tom's gonna be with denouncing homophobia, bud. It's a problem when you have two pages of a character spouting dialogue that just happens to align perfectly with the author's own beliefs. Despite agreeing with Tom on the subject, I don't read the comic to be preached at. Just as a side note, I don't think Annie's going to be homophobic, considering that she was under the impression that Zimmy and Gamma were together in Faraway Morning. More likely is that Tom's just messing with us. |
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Post by Intelligence on Nov 29, 2013 20:01:43 GMT
The most that will happen is Boxbot stops mind-controlling Kat, and is burned to ashes by Annie. |
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chaosvii
Junior Member
I absolutely did not expect this!
Posts: 84
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Post by chaosvii on Nov 29, 2013 20:44:55 GMT
I challenge you to impress me with a definition of "being in your face about it" that still fits with the way you've used it here. It's just a question of how upfront Tom's gonna be with denouncing homophobia, bud. It's a problem when you have two pages of a character spouting dialogue that just happens to align perfectly with the author's own beliefs. Despite agreeing with Tom on the subject, I don't read the comic to be preached at. Ah, so a subjective experience that informs your opinion of what the author thinks and intends to say. Was Kat's opinions regarding protein crystals being far more important than anti-grav technology "in your face"? Was George's whole deal with her heart & Smitface's manly eyebrows "in your face"? Was Antimony's narration about how much she values her friendship with Kat more than she is homesick after Kat's vacation with her parents "in your face"? Was the whole story about how Antimony internalized knowing that her mother wants her to be safe and was thus able to be brave in the face of scary ghosts burning nearly to death (then later succumbing to his burns) "in your face"? Because these sorts of things come off as simple life lessons that young people go through, which serves to highlight the characterization of those young fictional individuals. I know I'm being petty, but really the only thing I take any issue with is that you call this story preaching and cite weak evidence for your claim as opposed to saying that it comes off as preachy. Doesn't make my passive-aggressiveness any better, sure, but I too am not a fan of people saying things that don't jive with how I would like them to say it, even when I agree with the jist of it. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2013 21:00:58 GMT
It's just a question of how upfront Tom's gonna be with denouncing homophobia, bud. It's a problem when you have two pages of a character spouting dialogue that just happens to align perfectly with the author's own beliefs. Despite agreeing with Tom on the subject, I don't read the comic to be preached at. Ah, so a subjective experience that informs your opinion of what the author thinks and intends to say. Was Kat's opinions regarding protein crystals being far more important than anti-grav technology "in your face"? Was George's whole deal with her heart & Smitface's manly eyebrows "in your face"? Was Antimony's narration about how much she values her friendship with Kat more than she is homesick after Kat's vacation with her parents "in your face"? Was the whole story about how Antimony internalized knowing that her mother wants her to be safe and was thus able to be brave in the face of scary ghosts burning nearly to death (then later succumbing to his burns) "in your face"? Because these sorts of things come off as simple life lessons that young people go through, which serves to highlight the characterization of those young fictional individuals. I know I'm being petty, but really the only thing I take any issue with is that you call this story preaching and cite weak evidence for your claim as opposed to saying that it comes off as preachy. Doesn't make my passive-aggressiveness any better, sure, but I too am not a fan of people saying things that don't jive with how I would like them to say it, even when I agree with the jist of it. Protein crystals, anti-grav tech, and manly eyebrows aren't hot social issues. Being gay is. You seriously don't hear Tom's voice coming out in Rey in these last two pages? |
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Post by lordofpotatoes on Nov 29, 2013 21:04:31 GMT
Ah, so a subjective experience that informs your opinion of what the author thinks and intends to say. Was Kat's opinions regarding protein crystals being far more important than anti-grav technology "in your face"? Was George's whole deal with her heart & Smitface's manly eyebrows "in your face"? Was Antimony's narration about how much she values her friendship with Kat more than she is homesick after Kat's vacation with her parents "in your face"? Was the whole story about how Antimony internalized knowing that her mother wants her to be safe and was thus able to be brave in the face of scary ghosts burning nearly to death (then later succumbing to his burns) "in your face"? Because these sorts of things come off as simple life lessons that young people go through, which serves to highlight the characterization of those young fictional individuals. I know I'm being petty, but really the only thing I take any issue with is that you call this story preaching and cite weak evidence for your claim as opposed to saying that it comes off as preachy. Doesn't make my passive-aggressiveness any better, sure, but I too am not a fan of people saying things that don't jive with how I would like them to say it, even when I agree with the jist of it. Protein crystals, anti-grav tech, and manly eyebrows aren't hot social issues. Being gay is. You seriously don't hear Tom's voice coming out in Rey in these last two pages? it doesn't sound like preaching as much as it sounds like really to-the-point and a detailed explanation as to why the court is the court, as if a narrator told you it to make you understand the setting. |
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