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Post by Lightice on Nov 29, 2013 9:43:12 GMT
Some leakage was inevitable... I just hope this doesn't signal the start of a trend. People of one cause rarely stick long. They only come when the topic is new and relevant, or they think it is. It's rather sad if that guy really imagine that Tom would include some justifications to homophobia to this comic at this point. "Research", indeed... |
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 29, 2013 9:43:18 GMT
You know, Rey is SO SERIOUS here I'm actually getting a vibe he's colluding with Annie and intentionally putting Kat down in preparation for a pleasant surprise. Probably not what's really happening, though  No, no, surely that is the case. Monday's page will show us Annie coming out of the closet to offer Kat, with Rey, cake and a threesome. |
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Post by quetzhal on Nov 29, 2013 9:47:19 GMT
I believe its more prepping for the worst case scenario. I am really hoping beyond hope that this is the case. I don't think I can handle Annie going into a homophobic freakout on Kat after all the wonderful progress this story has made. I am very seriously worried about this right now.  All I can do is take a deep breath and allow myself to trust Tom to tell us the story his way. He hasn't disappointed me yet. Would it be a bad thing if the story did go in that direction? It's not unrealistic to expect at least one person to react negatively, and Annie is the most likely one given her upbringing. It's a good way to show how a homophobic person could work past their prejudices for the sake of a friendship. I mean, don't get me wrong, it'd be heartbreaking and painful if it did happen that way, but I don't think I'd call it a disappointment if Tom did it. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 29, 2013 9:52:37 GMT
Some leakage was inevitable... I just hope this doesn't signal the start of a trend. People of one cause rarely stick long. They only come when the topic is new and relevant, or they think it is. It's rather sad if that guy really imagine that Tom would include some justifications to homophobia to this comic at this point. "Research", indeed... Ahem. If it indeed is the justification of homophobia he was after, as it seems, still more precisely it would be as follows: "include some social scientific justifications to homophobia spoken by the mouth of Renard", to this comic, at this point. This totally is plausible, known how strongly Renard has been associated with social sciences in the course of this comic. |
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Post by chickenbone on Nov 29, 2013 9:57:24 GMT
Evolution isn't so good at correcting it's moral mistakes, because evolution is inherently a process detached from morality. Evolution can no more make "moral mistakes" than gravity. Otoh, any innate moral sense in humans is presumably a feature gained through evolution. |
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Post by Elysium on Nov 29, 2013 10:04:02 GMT
Would it really have been too much to hope for that a guy who is so invested in researching other topics included in his work (physics, mythology, zoology, history, etc) would at least TRY to touch on some more meaningful themes such as normalizaton of deviance or other sociological concepts instead of just spouting some some tired old nonsense about how humans are meanies and "voices can't be silenced"? I am genuinely disappointed by this update. u wot m8 Well anyways, it's an interesting point that Renard makes, GKC has indeed a quite different philosophy than your run-on-the-mill boarding school, but I never really though about it, since I unconsciously associated them with a generic western modern society....because compared to the forest and their convoluted logic, it just seemed more familiar. |
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Post by TBeholder on Nov 29, 2013 10:21:58 GMT
Oh no. They're here. THEY'VE COME Oh, noes! Toloc: Please don't. Also, your avatar: no. It's an unique environment. Where one can invite a laser cow before feeding the birds. Just in case.  known how strongly Renard has been associated with social sciences in the course of this comic. Hey, don't jump to conclusions. We may yet find out he was sneaking in to observe Paz's rats. And maybe not only when they exercise.  |
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Post by philman on Nov 29, 2013 10:27:59 GMT
I'm reading this comic because of stuff, so that sounds ok I guess. How can anyone argue with that... |
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panther
Junior Member
Made out of spoons
Posts: 52
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Post by panther on Nov 29, 2013 10:38:07 GMT
Oh man, because of the angle of panel 4, I thought the beanbag was the back of someone's head and was all hyped up for confrontation. Nope, guess not...
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Post by flowsthead on Nov 29, 2013 10:41:54 GMT
I don't think we should be so quick to discount possible homophobia in Annie just because she hangs out with Coyote and Ysengrin, and possibly had make outs with Kamlen. Remember the Mort/Blinker stone scene from here?: gunnerkrigg.com/?p=523 "He's not a boy, Kat. He's just a ghost." Speciesism (if we for the sake of this argument consider ghosts a separate species) is a more complicated case than homophobia, but the basic idea of Annie separating different lifeforms holds. Ysengrin attacked her because he perceived that she was looking down on the creatures of the forest, and although he overreacted, I don't think he was wrong. Annie has prejudices and biases like any other person, so it wouldn't be inconsistent with her character to show some homophobia. Also, as pointed out by imaginaryfriend, if Annie is jealous of Kat's relationship with Paz, or hurt because of the sneaking around, or worried about losing her closest friend, that all could manifest in homophobic reactions even if Annie isn't actually a homophobe. They're all still young, and immaturity is part of being young. |
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Post by hypetrain on Nov 29, 2013 10:46:47 GMT
some more meaningful themes such as normalizaton of deviance or other sociological concepts Please, elaborate. Normalization of deviance is just a precise wording for "shit gets less weird over time yo" so people can talk about the processes by which for example dressing in nothing but underwear* went from being scandalous to acceptable, without getting caught up in definitions. Or if you want a more on-topic example, the changes in societal views which today allows Rupaul to be a successful recording artist while being a molly three centuries ago was a capital offence. I was expecting Rey to carry on from what he said on the previous page with something to the effect of "a lot of shit people do isn't normal, don't sweat it", instead we get "a voice will never be silenced when it has something to say" which is demonstrably untrue. (*t-shirts) |
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 29, 2013 10:49:36 GMT
I don't think we should be so quick to discount possible homophobia in Annie just because she hangs out with Coyote and Ysengrin, and possibly had make outs with Kamlen. Remember the Mort/Blinker stone scene from here?: gunnerkrigg.com/?p=523 "He's not a boy, Kat. He's just a ghost." Speciesism (if we for the sake of this argument consider ghosts a separate species) is a more complicated case than homophobia, but the basic idea of Annie separating different lifeforms holds. Ysengrin attacked her because he perceived that she was looking down on the creatures of the forest, and although he overreacted, I don't think he was wrong. Annie has prejudices and biases like any other person, so it wouldn't be inconsistent with her character to show some homophobia. Also, as pointed out by imaginaryfriend, if Annie is jealous of Kat's relationship with Paz, or hurt because of the sneaking around, or worried about losing her closest friend, that all could manifest in homophobic reactions even if Annie isn't actually a homophobe. They're all still young, and immaturity is part of being young. But that may also be just her belittling Mort. I got it that she was angered by the idea that Mort would had a claim that they are a couple for three reasons: she herself was not yet at all interested in any kind of coupling, which seems to have been the case; she had no knowledge of this, so Mort had sort of tricked her; she seems to have not thought of Mort in terms of a potential boyfriend, not because he is a ghost, but because he is a puny little child. I do not see particular speciesism there. On the contrary, we have witnessed Annie being remarkably open to all different kinds of creatures she has met so far. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 29, 2013 10:53:09 GMT
Normalization of deviance is just a precise wording for "shit gets less weird over time yo" so people can talk about the processes by which for example dressing in nothing but underwear* went from being scandalous to acceptable, without getting caught up in definitions. Or if you want a more on-topic example, the changes in societal views which today allows Rupaul to be a successful recording artist while being a molly three centuries ago was a capital offence. I was expecting Rey to carry on from what he said on the previous page with something to the effect of "a lot of shit people do isn't normal, don't sweat it", instead we get "a voice will never be silenced when it has something to say" which is demonstrably untrue. (*t-shirts) Okay. I get why someone would have said that. Probably close to the way I would have said it myself. But this is Renard. And already the last page you saw he was dragging this to the general direction of "people are evil, you are good, but people are evil", with which the continuation about Kat's voice surviving even suppression of mean people suits nicely. |
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Post by hypetrain on Nov 29, 2013 11:10:27 GMT
But this is Renard. And already the last page you saw he was dragging this to the general direction of "people are evil, you are good, but people are evil", with which the continuation about Kat's voice surviving even suppression of mean people suits nicely. I can see the dialogue going in that direction, but it doesn't change the fact that what's in this page is plain hamfisted. |
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Post by hypetrain on Nov 29, 2013 11:16:15 GMT
Quoted from elsewhere, because it bears repeating:
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 29, 2013 11:28:13 GMT
Welcome to the forum, new people! But this is Renard. And already the last page you saw he was dragging this to the general direction of "people are evil, you are good, but people are evil", with which the continuation about Kat's voice surviving even suppression of mean people suits nicely. I can see the dialogue going in that direction, but it doesn't change the fact that what's in this page is plain hamfisted. He's a fox. Trying to be what he imagines is a good human dad-substitute. And he does think Kat is weird. [edit] Kat spends nearly all her time in books and working on machines and computers and stuff he doesn't understand or like. Some of that stuff he may think is not natural at all and probably he thinks it is not good for her.[/edit] Kat being attracted to Paz is probably the first thing Renard has really been able to relate to her about strongly so he is going way the hell overboard into after-school special mode. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh. Also the reason I discount the possibility of homophobia strongly in Antimony is because she grew up in Good Hope. Big hospital. Met all sorts of people growing up. Must have seen some same-sex people going through the grieving process. Plus the whole medium thing. |
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Post by noone3 on Nov 29, 2013 12:37:29 GMT
Monday's page will show us Annie coming out of the closet to offer Kat, with Rey, cake and a threesome. I see your pun right there, buddy! |
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 29, 2013 12:40:39 GMT
Monday's page will show us Annie coming out of the closet to offer Kat, with Rey, cake and a threesome. I see your pun right there, buddy! I admit it ain't great.  I also admit I have no idea how to use emoticons correctly. |
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Post by snipertom on Nov 29, 2013 12:41:59 GMT
Monday's page will show us Annie coming out of the closet to offer Kat, with Rey, cake and a threesome. I see your pun right there, buddy! If a cake is involved then that's a foursome. Not even counting Glados's guest appearance there Also I am now imagining her skating out of the wardrobe with rollerskates and a new perm. Don't ask me why. I've decided she's decided to admit that she is... ... from Noo Joisey. |
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Post by snipertom on Nov 29, 2013 12:48:20 GMT
But this is Renard. And already the last page you saw he was dragging this to the general direction of "people are evil, you are good, but people are evil", with which the continuation about Kat's voice surviving even suppression of mean people suits nicely. I can see the dialogue going in that direction, but it doesn't change the fact that what's in this page is plain hamfisted. I'm glad you clarified your original post, because it wasn't really clear what you were getting at exactly. Personally, my thoughts are really that that is just how Rey talks when he's being serious. His style of conversation tends to the bold, semi-philosophical and somewhat dramatic. Also, I don't even think he's correct. I think he's just assuming what Annie is thinking based on how *he* might think if he were in her shoes. Due to either a somewhat simplistic understanding of humans (he is a fox-god, and an outsider), or perhaps due to having previously had his own prejudices. Though, given that the animal kingdom is full of same-sex humping without any qualms attached it's hard to imagine that Rey would really find it that odd. Plus, believe me, I've heard pretty much every cheesy-ass thing under the sun when it came to me telling people I like ladies. Even now people say stuff that sounds like it's from an after-school-special LAUGHING ON LINE |
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Post by snipertom on Nov 29, 2013 12:50:29 GMT
Welcome to the forum, new people! I can see the dialogue going in that direction, but it doesn't change the fact that what's in this page is plain hamfisted. He's a fox. Trying to be what he imagines is a good human dad-substitute. And he does think Kat is weird. [edit] Kat spends nearly all her time in books and working on machines and computers and stuff he doesn't understand or like. Some of that stuff he may think is not natural at all and probably he thinks it is not good for her.[/edit] Kat being attracted to Paz is probably the first thing Renard has really been able to relate to her about strongly so he is going way the hell overboard into after-school special mode. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh. Also the reason I discount the possibility of homophobia strongly in Antimony is because she grew up in Good Hope. Big hospital. Met all sorts of people growing up. Must have seen some same-sex people going through the grieving process. Plus the whole medium thing. He believes that all that hanging out with robots and technology and science and shit is like, spiritually damaging. (Sorry! Couldn't resist!) |
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Chendzee'a
New Member
They should have sent a poet...
Posts: 27 
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Post by Chendzee'a on Nov 29, 2013 13:27:31 GMT
Okay this update upset me. If Annie is upset at Kat for liking Paz because shes a girl. I'll be seriously disappointed. Annie has never been one to be disturbed by much of anything. If THIS is what bugs her... then... wow... She's simply seen and accepted at face value far stranger things than Kat Kissing Girl and not batting an eye. Ghosts, Gods, Spirits, Zimmy
If she is truly upset, I can only imagine it being because she's jealous in a platonic or romantic sense, or hurt that her friend didn't tell her.
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Post by kalechibki on Nov 29, 2013 13:31:04 GMT
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Post by philman on Nov 29, 2013 13:41:22 GMT
Personally, my thoughts are really that that is just how Rey talks when he's being serious. His style of conversation tends to the bold, semi-philosophical and somewhat dramatic. Also, I don't even think he's correct. I think he's just assuming what Annie is thinking based on how *he* might think if he were in her shoes. Due to either a somewhat simplistic understanding of humans (he is a fox-god, and an outsider), or perhaps due to having previously had his own prejudices. Though, given that the animal kingdom is full of same-sex humping without any qualms attached it's hard to imagine that Rey would really find it that odd. This is just Rey's opinion, but I'm also thinking, he knew Surma very well, and given she'd be the most important influence on Annie's young life and younger opinions, I wonder what he knew of hers or Anthony's opinions on these matters? |
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 29, 2013 13:52:44 GMT
Personally, my thoughts are really that that is just how Rey talks when he's being serious. His style of conversation tends to the bold, semi-philosophical and somewhat dramatic. Yes. Exactly. Kind of effort to approach the virtues of the great Roman political rhetoricians and statesmen, reminding me of some authors of American Enlightenment in particular. Only it is hard to find a one who would have been of such a joyful and philandering nature as Rey. I'm sure there is a one, I just have never paid enough interest to personal lives of other people. |
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Post by flowsthead on Nov 29, 2013 14:01:59 GMT
I don't think we should be so quick to discount possible homophobia in Annie just because she hangs out with Coyote and Ysengrin, and possibly had make outs with Kamlen. Remember the Mort/Blinker stone scene from here?: gunnerkrigg.com/?p=523 "He's not a boy, Kat. He's just a ghost." Speciesism (if we for the sake of this argument consider ghosts a separate species) is a more complicated case than homophobia, but the basic idea of Annie separating different lifeforms holds. Ysengrin attacked her because he perceived that she was looking down on the creatures of the forest, and although he overreacted, I don't think he was wrong. Annie has prejudices and biases like any other person, so it wouldn't be inconsistent with her character to show some homophobia. Also, as pointed out by imaginaryfriend, if Annie is jealous of Kat's relationship with Paz, or hurt because of the sneaking around, or worried about losing her closest friend, that all could manifest in homophobic reactions even if Annie isn't actually a homophobe. They're all still young, and immaturity is part of being young. But that may also be just her belittling Mort. I got it that she was angered by the idea that Mort would had a claim that they are a couple for two reasons: she herself was not yet at all interested in any kind of coupling, which seems to have been the case; she had no knowledge of this, so Mort had sort of tricked her; she seems to have not thought of Mort in terms of a potential boyfriend, not because he is a ghost, but because he is a puny little child. I do not see particular speciesism there. On the contrary, we have witnessed Annie being remarkably open to all different kinds of creatures she has met so far. I agree with most of what you're saying, except for the bolded part. I don't think it was because he was a boy. I do think it was because he was a ghost. Otherwise, why would she say it in those words? "He's just a ghost" seems to imply that if he had been something other than a ghost, the situation would be different. I also think there is a difference between being open to things and accepting them, or recognizing something in the abstract and dealing with it in the practical. Her treatment of Renard when she said that her mother never loved him ("how could she ever love a creature like you?" source), and her deeming Coyote's great secret to be silly are both examples of her belittling the forest people. Now, they're not strong views or anything, but casual speciesism is still speciesism, the same way casual racism is still racism, even if it's less immediately harmful. Again, I'm not saying that Annie will necessarily be homophobic, or even that she still holds speciest views. A lot of these things go away the longer she spends time with them, and she has visited the forest a lot, along with the realization that she is part forest creature as well, so that probably went a long way to helping her sort out these views. It just wouldn't be out of character for her to need some time to sort out her views on homosexuality. For example, she accepts that Zimmy and Gamma are together, but she also views Zimmy in a fairly negative light, so having Kat as a best friend will have her confronting it a more direct and positive way. Well, it's all speculation until we see Annie anyway. |
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 29, 2013 14:19:31 GMT
But that may also be just her belittling Mort. I got it that she was angered by the idea that Mort would had a claim that they are a couple for two reasons: she herself was not yet at all interested in any kind of coupling, which seems to have been the case; she had no knowledge of this, so Mort had sort of tricked her; she seems to have not thought of Mort in terms of a potential boyfriend, not because he is a ghost, but because he is a puny little child. I do not see particular speciesism there. On the contrary, we have witnessed Annie being remarkably open to all different kinds of creatures she has met so far. I agree with most of what you're saying, except for the bolded part. I don't think it was because he was a boy. I do think it was because he was a ghost. Otherwise, why would she say it in those words? To belittle. That is an obvious option for her to belittle poor Mort for Kat: he is just a ghost. She doesn't have to be 100% fair or rational. She was a little kid herself. This is a rude example, but if you're gay or fat or black or jew or vegan or whatever, a friend of yours who has nothing against that particular aspect of yours, may throw that in your face in a heat of dispute if you happen to piss him off. He will regret it, and I think Annie did. But to me it is obvious that Annie has never belittled Mort because he is a ghost, just as a ghost. You should notice that Annie hanged out with Mort always while having pretty much nothing to do with her own species, even helping Mort to scare other human kids. That doesn't come out as speciesist to me. And generally, there's a fair chance that you are confusing insults towards Renard (and Mort) and the pretension of nonchalance towards Coyote and generally politics to her real nature and attitude. Insult often does not reflect persons real attitude. One may use some traits in insults just to make it hurt more. |
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Post by Deepbluediver on Nov 29, 2013 15:01:23 GMT
Reynardine seems to be assuming pretty hard that Antimony is a jaded, intolerant individual. I don't think that's the case. I don't get that impression. It was Kat who brought up the topic of Annie, and Reynardine, seemed like he was looking for a way to downplay things. I still hold the opinion that Annie probably just left cause catching you friends in the act of making' out is hella awkward....as I said several threads ago. Imagine if Annie had seen Kat and Paz deep in a loving embrace, and rushed over to shove her nose into their business. There's a term that describes that kind of behavior; I'll give you a hint, it ends in "-blocked" and girls tend to lack the anatomy of the first half. |
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Post by flowsthead on Nov 29, 2013 15:45:00 GMT
I agree with most of what you're saying, except for the bolded part. I don't think it was because he was a boy. I do think it was because he was a ghost. Otherwise, why would she say it in those words? To belittle. That is an obvious option for her to belittle poor Mort for Kat: he is just a ghost. She doesn't have to be 100% fair or rational. She was a little kid herself. This is a rude example, but if you're gay or fat or black or jew or vegan or whatever, a friend of yours who has nothing against that particular aspect of yours, may throw that in your face in a heat of dispute if you happen to piss him off. He will regret it, and I think Annie did. But to me it is obvious that Annie has never belittled Mort because he is a ghost, just as a ghost. You should notice that Annie hanged out with Mort always while having pretty much nothing to do with her own species, even helping Mort to scare other human kids. That doesn't come out as speciesist to me. And generally, there's a fair chance that you are confusing insults towards Renard (and Mort) and the pretension of nonchalance towards Coyote and generally politics to her real nature and attitude. Insult often does not reflect persons real attitude. One may use some traits in insults just to make it hurt more. I would be more likely to agree with this if she had said it to Mort, but she said it to Kat, which would generally imply to me her real feelings on the matter. If it had been said to Mort, then maybe it would be just to hurt him. But even at times when we're just trying to hurt others, a bit of the truth sneaks in, and in this case since it was said to a third party, I would argue a lot of the truth snuck in. |
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Post by quinkgirl on Nov 29, 2013 15:48:17 GMT
Reynardine seems to be assuming pretty hard that Antimony is a jaded, intolerant individual. I don't think that's the case. I don't get that impression. It was Kat who brought up the topic of Annie, and Reynardine, seemed like he was looking for a way to downplay things. I still hold the opinion that Annie probably just left cause catching you friends in the act of making' out is hella awkward....as I said several threads ago. Imagine if Annie had seen Kat and Paz deep in a loving embrace, and rushed over to shove her nose into their business. There's a term that describes that kind of behavior; I'll give you a hint, it ends in "-blocked" and girls tend to lack the anatomy of the first half. But if it was just awkward, why run and disappear for hours? I'd understand if it was just for a little bit and not so hard to find... |
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All I can do is take a deep breath and allow myself to trust Tom to tell us the story his way. He hasn't disappointed me yet. 
