How do we feel about Kat being (possibly) gay?

[zimmyzims]

Dec 6, 2013 20:10:15 GMT brightside said:

Dec 6, 2013 9:51:10 GMT zimmyzims said:

I don't frequent the buttzone, but here, the "Kat is Gay? What?!" -discussion is instigated by a very marginal minority that has all the time been in complete denial that there could be homosexuality in a top quality comic. It counts just about 5 or 6 people of whom most only registered in order to tell their shock about this. These are people, who argued that because Paz said that she's "not like that", there was a word of Tom that she is not gay. Please.

They're a bit like you, who are basically saying that because Kat didn't have explicit girl crushes as a pre-teen child, her turning out having a homosexual relation at age of 14 or 15 is absolutely unbelievable - all despite the more-than-friendship vibe in her relation to Annie, that has been sensed by other comic characters for ages now. Even without that, it would not be so strange. For comparison, if that counts as unbelievable, then I expect you guys to come here start shock threads screaming "what, Annie can't be straight because she hasn't had boyfriend as a kid", if Annie one day develops a heterosexual relationship in this comic.

If you would actually read the posts of other users you would realize that a large majority did not share the shock that these few people experienced with this turn of events, and the people responding these "it's so unbelievable that Kat and Paz are gay!!" posts have had no problem in reading this in line with the general thread of the comic. That Annie and Kat would develop a love relationship in time has been a possibility wished for or feared by the forumers for the longest time.

"discussion is instigated by a very marginal minority" etc: that's just because to register just to start a discussion someone needs a good motivation: being interested for a "morality"-prejudices things (the ones that doesn't like gay people and/or gay characters) or being very stubborn about making people know when they are wrong (me, as I am the plot-version of a grammar nazi). Everyone else sees that as "too much work" and just comments with a MEH!.

this is extremely untrue claim about the forumers, who are very eager to critically discuss the plot. For example, a huge, intense debate was recently caused by Annie supposedly meeting the Seed Bismuth. Similar debates occur whenever people feel Tom's writing is awkward plot-wise. Yet, this one time, every single forumer who raised this question actually had moral issue with their favourite character being Gay. I think this goes for you as well, no matter what you claim, because for some reason you, like other "Kat can't be gay" -ranters, felt no urge to start a debate about any of the other apparently implausible plot turns. It took a one having to do with homosexuality to get you register. This is the truth why these few instigate a debate on a turn of events that caused no shock-reaction in most: they have a moral issue with gays, whereas we who don't have, saw no plot-wise problems with this particular turn of the story.

That people frequenting a forum called buttzone intensely discuss gays doesn't surprise me.

Also,

Edit: also if everything was so clear, the homophobes-and-such would have predicted it and dropped the comic a lot of time ago .

If everything was clear about what will happen, nobody would read any mystery. That there are sufficiently things to suggest this turn of events to make it completely plausible and no longer very surprising, is not the same as it would have been clear that it happens. I envision the great epic battle in the end, with Annie and Kat opposed to each other. It is very plausible. I would not be really shocked if it happened. Is it clear that it will happen. No, it is not. The can work it out and this can go on peacefully. And that can be a wonderful story as well. But that does not prevent me from seeing the possibility of an epic battle in this comic.

I leave this now. The point is sufficiently argued, mainly because at no point have you raised sound arguments why this would be wrong for uniquely plot-technical reasons, mere rhetorical quasi-arguments in long posts of which the subject matter often could be reduced to one or two sentences. If you want to stubbornly repeat your claim, be my guest, but do not expect me or anybody else to answer you again and again.

[snipertom]

Dec 7, 2013 9:54:43 GMT philman said:

Dec 7, 2013 3:05:43 GMT snipertom said:

Also Parley is a tomboy, and straight?
Gamma and Paz are into girls, and girly?

To be fair, I can't think of many female characters in this comic who AREN'T at least a little bit tomboy. Whatever that word means anymore (let's not even mention the implied sexism in the term anyway, that girls like girl things and boys like boy things).

To be fair we are at an unusual school, so everyone is odd in some ways. But Anja and Kat are both very geeky and into computers and robots, one is straight the other is bi/gay. Annie is more girly with her make up and stuff, but still beats up multiple creatures and enjoys lockpicking and climbing trees etc. Parley enjoys beating up lots of things with swords. Red and Blue, erm, are just weird. Jones isn't really female I'd say.

So the closest we have to a girly girl in he entire comic is Annie, I don't think picking on anyone as being a tomboy is fair, either in this comic (because most of the girls are) or in general (because it is relatively sexist).

I think you've made the point that I really *should have* but failed to make

I know very few girls who would fit only into 'girly' or only 'boyish' behaviour- mostly because most traits are not gendered anyway, and the few that are 'gendered' are gendered arbitrarily. Pink is the most obvious example- it used to be the 'boy' colour circa 1900 but is considered 'girly' now.

As far as I can tell there are a lot of ideas about gendered behaviour, sexual mores, homosexuality, making things up about Celtic mythology/history, etc that kind of got worse in the Victorian era and just kind of only slowly improved. Did a similar thing happen outside the Anglosphere?

[Marnath]

Dec 7, 2013 4:31:57 GMT Señor Goose said:

Dec 7, 2013 3:24:26 GMT snipertom said:

Word of Tom confirms they are a couple.

Oh wow, okay then.

Wait, how do we know that Tom didn't mean "a couple... of people"?

If you don't trust word of god, you could also reference the times when each of them explicitly declares their love for the other. I can't blame you for missing Gamma's though, it's hidden in one of those static-filled thought bubbles from when Zimmy thought she was Annie. Center panel on the bottom.

"I do it because I love you, Zimmy."

[brightside]

Dec 7, 2013 11:46:42 GMT zimmyzims said:

Dec 6, 2013 20:10:15 GMT brightside said:

"discussion is instigated by a very marginal minority" etc: that's just because to register just to start a discussion someone needs a good motivation: being interested for a "morality"-prejudices things (the ones that doesn't like gay people and/or gay characters) or being very stubborn about making people know when they are wrong (me, as I am the plot-version of a grammar nazi). Everyone else sees that as "too much work" and just comments with a MEH!.

this is extremely untrue claim about the forumers, who are very eager to critically discuss the plot. For example, a huge, intense debate was recently caused by Annie supposedly meeting the Seed Bismuth. Similar debates occur whenever people feel Tom's writing is awkward plot-wise. Yet, this one time, every single forumer who raised this question actually had moral issue with their favourite character being Gay. I think this goes for you as well, no matter what you claim, because for some reason you, like other "Kat can't be gay" -ranters, felt no urge to start a debate about any of the other apparently implausible plot turns. It took a one having to do with homosexuality to get you register. This is the truth why these few instigate a debate on a turn of events that caused no shock-reaction in most: they have a moral issue with gays, whereas we who don't have, saw no plot-wise problems with this particular turn of the story.

Then you just think wrong. Very very wrong. Your insults and projections are not going to make me feel ashamed as I have not to be.
I registered here now because I saw in a thread on The Butt Zone about the comic that someone said there was a big discussion here in the forum (I just made all my discussions about plot there on the 'zone, if you really have to know that). So I came, found it, saw that nobody expressed what I was thinking in a proper way and doing a proper argumentation about it and TA-DAH! registered. If you are feeling so creative just start your own webcomic.

Ah, also, in my first post:

Nov 30, 2013 0:52:18 GMT brightside said:

Speaking about lesbians I would have liked a lot more if Tom used that chapter to let us know Zimmy and Gamma better, instead of using them like some kind of "spirit animals" in Kat's quest for her real sexual preferences. (ok, I'm saying that also because I love those two characters and I want to know more about Zimmy's connection to the ether, but still...)

Oh yeah I've sooo much problems with gay people, that's why some of my favourite characters in that comic are lesbians and I never came here to say nothing at all about that!

Dec 7, 2013 11:46:42 GMT zimmyzims said:

That people frequenting a forum called buttzone intensely discuss gays doesn't surprise me.

Exhilarating.
The Butt Zone is the name that Tom gave to the comics section of 4chan (by the way, one of the most openminded of the entire imageboard, when trolls from /pol/ doesn't go there to annoy everyone). Users on this forum discovered that if you write his real name without spaces it transforms into "The Butt Zone" . If you were so much informed about the threads here as you claim to be, you would know it.

Dec 7, 2013 11:46:42 GMT zimmyzims said:

Also,

Edit: also if everything was so clear, the homophobes-and-such would have predicted it and dropped the comic a lot of time ago .

If everything was clear about what will happen, nobody would read any mystery. That there are sufficiently things to suggest this turn of events to make it completely plausible and no longer very surprising, is not the same as it would have been clear that it happens. I envision the great epic battle in the end, with Annie and Kat opposed to each other. It is very plausible. I would not be really shocked if it happened. Is it clear that it will happen. No, it is not. The can work it out and this can go on peacefully. And that can be a wonderful story as well. But that does not prevent me from seeing the possibility of an epic battle in this comic.

"all despite the more-than-friendship vibe in her relation to Annie" (from your previous post): That everyone saw exept the homophobes and me? Weird that gay people too (like the guy who started this thread) found that strange, then.
"I envision the great epic battle in the end etc.": As there are possible hints. I wrote all my motivations in pratically a damned book made of my comments, you going on it's just because you don't want to read it as you think you are talking with some hardcore right-wing, the pope or someone like that.

Dec 7, 2013 11:46:42 GMT zimmyzims said:

I leave this now. The point is sufficiently argued, mainly because at no point have you raised sound arguments why this would be wrong for uniquely plot-technical reasons, mere rhetorical quasi-arguments in long posts of which the subject matter often could be reduced to one or two sentences. If you want to stubbornly repeat your claim, be my guest, but do not expect me or anybody else to answer you again and again.

I have used always sound arguments that, differenctly from yours, are based on logic, and tried to respond to more people I was able to. I had to use long posts to do that. It took me a lot of time doing that.
I just came in a thread about the readers feelings on a plot twist and expressed my opinions based on my idea of writing (and just a personal thing that could fit well with the word "feeling", but somehow for me it's not ok to say it) and in response to that I had:

Insults: "Shallow!" about a thing that I never said. "Homophobe!" by you for no goddamn reason.
People thought I was trying to impose my own "no-stereotypes-agenda" to the comic, when I said in my first post I wrote against a similar thing demonstrating  I'm against idiotic things like that (in art, art before everything). I just said the opposite, and always. Still, nobody listened.
People never reading my posts, but just repeating again the same accusations so that I had to quote myself anytime in any of my posts. And you are the one expected to "answer again and again"?

Well, farewell.

Dec 6, 2013 21:50:04 GMT Lightice said:

Dec 6, 2013 21:33:19 GMT brightside said:

If you just read my previous posts I said this exact same thing. It was just a "personal feeling" thing.
Also, about the types of lesbian characters: in comics, yes. In fiction in general, no. At least, for what I saw.

The problem of writing massive walls of text is that your main point very quickly gets lost in the stream of arguments; I know that from experience. As far as personal feelings go, there's no point in debating about those. Everybody has their own, but no work of fiction is made to conform to your specific feelings unless you're the one who wrote it. If some piece of characterisation or plot development isn't fully satisfying to you that's too bad, but you can't expect everything to work out like you feel it should.

Oh well yes you are right, it's just that it's a problem to respond to a lot of people at the same time... and I had enough to write everything again in every post. Well let's do it one more time.
About the personal feelings: of course it's not me that started that discussion about personal feelings. I just wrote it in a thread about it and everyone felt the urge to contest me. About the comics, I think the exact opposite of "is made to conform to my specific feelings". Tom can wrote whatever he likes, I can not like it but that doesn't mean he should change everything every time I talk. Those were some of my posts about that:

"And someone can be interested in a social issue without wanting to see it always and everywhere, especially if that could mean a loss of quality in a work of art and EVEN MORE if it's preaching (BTW I don't think Tom has become a preacher, but maybe he was influenced by what's happening in other webcomics)". ("he" is another user)

"Of course Tom could simply (with all the reasons) not being interested in creating a character that breaks stereotypes, but "only" the best character for his story. So the tomboy thing is just more of a personal thing (while the possible incoherence is not)."

"Of course,her having some stereotyped caractheristics does not means that she is only the "tomboy-lesbian". Like you said, the sexuality thing is it's not at the center of her character. It's a thing that matters outside of the story, and it could matter only for me"

"Tom doesn't need to create a story to modify society, but a good story" (here I also quoted myself, but i cut that part)




Everyone else talking about tomboys: it's a concept that someone has different, it seems. (as I don't see Annie as one, but for example also some of the manga ones in wikipedia). Yes, the one I've been exposed to is about appearence (and yes, it's a very sexist, stupid one, also discriminatory against homosexuals, because if tomboy=lesbian then every girl now compared to a one that lived 50 years ago should be one). But to close at least that part of the discussion:

Dec 6, 2013 21:50:04 GMT Lightice said:

As far as personal feelings go, there's no point in debating about those. Everybody has their own, but no work of fiction is made to conform to your specific feelings unless you're the one who wrote it.

The end.

[geminisun]

Not specifically replying to anyone, but I want to talk about how I feel about Pazkat developments and my own personal experience.

When Paz and Kat got together, I was thrilled. I still am, and in fact the entire first chunk of this chapter had me giggling helplessly the whole way because Kat was just being so cute and awkward and teenaged and normal about her gay relationship. It was so easy to relate to her and it was so cute. The development of Pazkat has, in general, rung very true to my own experiences.

For example: Megacrushes on guys until your first attraction to a girl blindsides you? That was me. My first crushes that I knew what they were - the fluttery feelings, the attraction, the sighing and mooning - were all on guys, before I hit puberty. I can't even remember consciously crushing on a girl before highschool. (Unconsciously, on the other hand... well, there was this girl in first grade that I wanted really, really badly to be friends with. Like, I had fantasies about this and wrote this into school writing projects.) Even now, I still have a strong aesthetic appreciation for handsome men (both real and fictional) even though I can't ever imagine myself in a relationship with one. I assumed I was straight, because that was Normal, right up until a powerful physical and emotional attraction to my then-best friend punched me in the face. (Our fingers touched on Friday afternoon when I was handing back the CD player she'd loaned me at the end of the day. What followed was the most emotionally confusing weekend of my life as I tried to process the intense reaction I had to such a small and innocuous contact. It was a paradigm shift, because I'd never so much as considered that I might be interested in girls before. You think this stuff can't come out of the great blue nowhere? Because it sure can.)

There is nothing in Kat finding guys attractive, collecting action figures of male characters she thinks are hot, and having a Significant Crush on a guy who turns into a bird and thus leaves her with a kind of bird complex, that is inconsistent with later discovering a meaningful attraction to girls or at least this girl. Not one thing. Every part of that except the first-boyfriend-turned-into-a-bird-and-gave-me-a-bird-complex was something that I experienced.

Paz's side of things rings very true to me too. If you'd asked me at age 13 whether I was a lesbian, I would have said no. (First I might have needed you to explain it to me, because my concept of homosexuality was still very fuzzy and unformed and I only really knew that "lesbian" was an insult that got thrown at me once or twice in fifth grade.) I mean, I wasn't into girls, so obviously not, right? I even had a boyfriend! (A long-distance boyfriend in New Jersey who I was only involved with because he had asked me out first and I was good friends with him and didn't really understand my own mind and decided that obviously I must love him because he loved me and I thought that was my only chance at romance, and when he visited me everyone around us noticed how I barely touched him... but it counts, right? I had a boyfriend!) If you'd asked me again after The Tumultous Weekend of Homosexual Awakening, I wouldn't have known what answer to give you. Now, I have no problem claiming that identity, because it's what describes me best. Paz's reflexive denial in response to thinking she was being flirted with, even when she later realizes she's actually kind of into the girl she thought was flirting with her, is perfectly understandable and even normal. And her unexpected jealousy when Kat agreed to move in with Annie? Well... that's how I figured out my feelings for my current girlfriend weren't platonic. (Not that a healthy relationship should involve much jealousy. But that sudden unexpected flush of it about somebody one would like to be with was very useful for figuring out that one would in fact like to be with them. Both for Paz and for me.)

I love Pazkat, not just because it's adorable (it is), but because this is some of the best and truest representation of people like me and feelings like mine that I have ever had. In any medium. Ever. Even the ones specifically about gay people.

[Gulby]

^^^This. Just... Thank you. Exactly this. But the fact that I'm not a lesbian but a bisexual. But exactly this.

[polioman]

Dec 8, 2013 0:23:07 GMT geminisun said:

Not specifically replying to anyone, but I want to talk about how I feel about Pazkat developments and my own personal experience.

When Paz and Kat got together, I was thrilled. I still am, and in fact the entire first chunk of this chapter had me giggling helplessly the whole way because Kat was just being so cute and awkward and teenaged and normal about her gay relationship. It was so easy to relate to her and it was so cute. The development of Pazkat has, in general, rung very true to my own experiences.

For example: Megacrushes on guys until your first attraction to a girl blindsides you? That was me. My first crushes that I knew what they were - the fluttery feelings, the attraction, the sighing and mooning - were all on guys, before I hit puberty. I can't even remember consciously crushing on a girl before highschool. (Unconsciously, on the other hand... well, there was this girl in first grade that I wanted really, really badly to be friends with. Like, I had fantasies about this and wrote this into school writing projects.) Even now, I still have a strong aesthetic appreciation for handsome men (both real and fictional) even though I can't ever imagine myself in a relationship with one. I assumed I was straight, because that was Normal, right up until a powerful physical and emotional attraction to my then-best friend punched me in the face. (Our fingers touched on Friday afternoon when I was handing back the CD player she'd loaned me at the end of the day. What followed was the most emotionally confusing weekend of my life as I tried to process the intense reaction I had to such a small and innocuous contact. It was a paradigm shift, because I'd never so much as considered that I might be interested in girls before. You think this stuff can't come out of the great blue nowhere? Because it sure can.)

There is nothing in Kat finding guys attractive, collecting action figures of male characters she thinks are hot, and having a Significant Crush on a guy who turns into a bird and thus leaves her with a kind of bird complex, that is inconsistent with later discovering a meaningful attraction to girls or at least this girl. Not one thing. Every part of that except the first-boyfriend-turned-into-a-bird-and-gave-me-a-bird-complex was something that I experienced.

Paz's side of things rings very true to me too. If you'd asked me at age 13 whether I was a lesbian, I would have said no. (First I might have needed you to explain it to me, because my concept of homosexuality was still very fuzzy and unformed and I only really knew that "lesbian" was an insult that got thrown at me once or twice in fifth grade.) I mean, I wasn't into girls, so obviously not, right? I even had a boyfriend! (A long-distance boyfriend in New Jersey who I was only involved with because he had asked me out first and I was good friends with him and didn't really understand my own mind and decided that obviously I must love him because he loved me and I thought that was my only chance at romance, and when he visited me everyone around us noticed how I barely touched him... but it counts, right? I had a boyfriend!) If you'd asked me again after The Tumultous Weekend of Homosexual Awakening, I wouldn't have known what answer to give you. Now, I have no problem claiming that identity, because it's what describes me best. Paz's reflexive denial in response to thinking she was being flirted with, even when she later realizes she's actually kind of into the girl she thought was flirting with her, is perfectly understandable and even normal. And her unexpected jealousy when Kat agreed to move in with Annie? Well... that's how I figured out my feelings for my current girlfriend weren't platonic. (Not that a healthy relationship should involve much jealousy. But that sudden unexpected flush of it about somebody one would like to be with was very useful for figuring out that one would in fact like to be with them. Both for Paz and for me.)

I love Pazkat, not just because it's adorable (it is), but because this is some of the best and truest representation of people like me and feelings like mine that I have ever had. In any medium. Ever. Even the ones specifically about gay people.

10/10.  The whole thing's so realistically written.  I can't even

[SilverbackRon]

Dec 8, 2013 0:23:07 GMT geminisun said:

Not specifically replying to anyone, but I want to talk about how I feel about Pazkat developments and my own personal experience.

I really appreciate your candor and willingness to tell us about these important moments in your life, thank you for sharing!

As a straight guy, I have no interesting story about "realization" of my sexual identity.  I mean, unless you count the childhood process of thinking girls have cooties to thinking girls are cuties. 

[chaosvii]

Dec 7, 2013 20:08:16 GMT brightside said:

I registered here now because I saw in a thread on The Butt Zone about the comic that someone said there was a big discussion here in the forum (I just made all my discussions about plot there on the 'zone, if you really have to know that). So I came, found it, saw that nobody expressed what I was thinking in a proper way and doing a proper argumentation about it and TA-DAH! registered.

Well that helps explain a few things that I wasn't otherwise able to see in your posts. Argumentation is even more difficult to get down when the theme of the topic is basically discussion about feelings after all.

Dec 7, 2013 20:08:16 GMT brightside said:

I have used always sound arguments that, differenctly from yours, are based on logic, and tried to respond to more people I was able to. I had to use long posts to do that. It took me a lot of time doing that.
I just came in a thread about the readers feelings on a plot twist and expressed my opinions based on my idea of writing (and just a personal thing that could fit well with the word "feeling", but somehow for me it's not ok to say it)

Yes, it would be better for this exchange for us not lose sight of the fact that this is a discussion, and the only things that we can debate are the strengths of the comic's actual events & how they fit into a claim. Currently you are forwarding a position of "the comic's events preclude the establishment of Kat's exclusive homosexuality based on criteria X." and some have responded with the counter-claim "Criteria X does not account for and exclude event Y, thus the comic's events do not preclude Kat's exclusive homosexuality"
I expect to eventually respond to your words regarding this discussion, but for now I ought to study anatomy & the treatment of sports injuries. 
Procrastinates anyway

You have also said things like "I feel like this is a stereotype and that's not that great."
The discussion has sort of bloomed around "okay why is this a stereotype?" "sure it's a stereotype, but that's not a problem, tokenism is!" "how does this stereotype even work? I thought it meant..." and other such things that, as Lightice was getting at, won't go anywhere, and are better off just dropping since any attempts to define the vague reasons of why a person feels the way they do:
Will end in thoughtful introspection on the internet (which can totally happen)
or will end in tears (difficult to avoid)

Dec 7, 2013 20:08:16 GMT brightside said:

Dec 6, 2013 21:50:04 GMT Lightice said:

As far as personal feelings go, there's no point in debating about those. Everybody has their own, but no work of fiction is made to conform to your specific feelings unless you're the one who wrote it. If some piece of characterisation or plot development isn't fully satisfying to you that's too bad, but you can't expect everything to work out like you feel it should.

About the personal feelings: of course it's not me that started that discussion about personal feelings. I just wrote it in a thread about it and everyone felt the urge to contest me. About the comics, I think the exact opposite of "is made to conform to my specific feelings". Tom can wrote whatever he likes, I can not like it but that doesn't mean he should change everything every time I talk.

I'm not sure if others are reading too much into your words (I mean aside from the one that clearly did back there), but I personally have never been of the opinion that you were advocating a change in the story, merely saying what changes would have had to happen in the story for you to feel differently about Kat than you currently do.

You've claimed to feel that the characterization is wonky because of how Kat was very hetero-romantic throughout the early parts of the story. There was some solid counter-claims about how there were hints and how others feel differently about the hints than you do, and they were more or less claiming "that hetero-romantic crushes are common enough in gay & bi pre-teens that Tom's inclusion of Kat's crushes on men & man-like birds are not actually exclusive with Kat being attracted to Paz & girl-like birds creatures"
But I guess that was lost in the big posts and talk about stereotypes or something.

Dec 7, 2013 20:08:16 GMT brightside said:

Those were some of my posts about that:
"And someone can be interested in a social issue without wanting to see it always and everywhere, especially if that could mean a loss of quality in a work of art and EVEN MORE if it's preaching (BTW I don't think Tom has become a preacher, but maybe he was influenced by what's happening in other webcomics)". ("he" is another user)

See the thing that I don't like about this is the claim that "maybe Tom changed his writing in a way that I don't like because it's trendy" undercurrent of the parenthetical statement. No good evidence is presented to support this supposition, and if I were to press it, I'd be amazed to find a defense of it that didn't boil down to intuiting vague patterns.

Dec 7, 2013 20:08:16 GMT brightside said:

"Of course Tom could simply (with all the reasons) not being interested in creating a character that breaks stereotypes, but "only" the best character for his story. So the tomboy thing is just more of a personal thing (while the possible incoherence is not)."

I'm not sure that this can go anywhere, especially if, as you noted, the concept of "tomboy" shifts dramatically across cultures.
The matter of incoherence can be discussed & debated, as the claim is "these are places where I find a lack of coherence" and the counter-claim is "this is the event in the story that is intended to provide coherence"

Dec 7, 2013 20:08:16 GMT brightside said:

"Of course,her having some stereotyped caractheristics does not means that she is only the "tomboy-lesbian". Like you said, the sexuality thing is it's not at the center of her character. It's a thing that matters outside of the story, and it could matter only for me"

Agreed.

Dec 7, 2013 20:08:16 GMT brightside said:

"Tom doesn't need to create a story to modify society, but a good story"

This is something that I think is heavily subjective. I don't think that Tom is altering society any more than any artist does simply by expressing their art. I think that what does change society is how people react to it. To a lot of us, Tom is telling a story that doesn't clash with our perceptions enough for us to change our tune, for others the story breeds resentment at imagined slights due to its lack of their particular brand of narrow-mindedness. And for others still, there is this feeling that the story doesn't reflect what they think and this is a matter of taste, not beliefs.

[alpacalypse]

Ok, I have been following this thread for a few days now and I wanted to put my 2 (or 3 or 4) cents in. I'm not going to respond to any specific post simply because there are too many and it will confuse my points.

First, in response to the main question, I don't have an answer yet because I don't want to speculate my feeling on a topic that isn't really fleshed out in the story (I'll explain). I do love the Kat-Paz relationship however. I think the way the Tom has developed their relationship slowly and sort of behind the scenes (Kat has been keeping this a secret). As far as the believability of the story of Kat's change in preference, I do think it is very much believable. Her preference for guys never really manifested itself besides an admitted childish crush on Eglamore, a short fling with Aly, and getting bit worked up over being out late with boys in Power Station (I don't think Muut really counts but that is my opinion). She never has another crush any other boy and also never states that she doesn't or couldn't like girls in the same way. In fact I would like to bring attention to this page www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=111 which I don't remember being brought up in this thread. As far as evidence pointing to liking girls prior to Faraway Morning, this could be interpreted in such a way that Kat is blushing at the thought of kissing Annie, as Renard so lewdly brought up. Or it could just be the thought of kissing, depends on your interpretation. Since she isn't written as someone who likes likes girls, but she isn't written as one who doesn't.


Now as to why I feel this a topic that isn't really fleshed out. This is simply because while everyone here is talking about sexuality and all that, I cannot recall a time that a character has directly mentioned another character's or their own sexuality (using straight, gay, lesbian, bi, etc...). For the most part, sexuality is something that I feel has not been represented in the comic in overt tones besides a few kisses, Jeanne and that green guy, and whatever Parley and Smitty were doing that one time. Zimmy and Gamma are never referred to as lesbians, none of the girls really talk about how much they want to kiss a boy (or girl), and of course they haven't talked about sex. When Kat comes out to Renard, she says that Annie "saw me kissing my girlfriend," not "Annie found out I am gay." This entire chapter has been about what the status of Kat and Paz's relationship was at, something that was very much still in question and could have ended up going in a completely different direction.

As people have stated previously, whether or not Kat is gay shouldn't be a defining characteristic as whether we like her or not, which I completely agree with. I feel like labels of orientation are not that important to the story or to the characters themselves, simply that people recognize that they are in a relationship. Of course my point here may change completely depending on how Annie and Kat's conversation goes.


To another topic that has come up during this thread regarding the direction of the story to one more about romance. What have relationships been if not incredibly important drivers of the plot. Firstly, Parley and Smitty's relationship has spanned several chapters and I would say was even the focus of Terror Castle of the Jupiter Moon Martians. Renard is in the court because he fell so madly in love with Surma, Eglamore's relationship with Annie started with how he felt of being spurned by Surma in favor of Anthony, Jeanne was incredibly important part of whatever the founders were doing because she was in love that green guy and spurned Diego's advances. The development of their classmates has revolved around their relationships, specifically Wil and Janet, John and Margo, that whole Paz-Matt-Moon chick triangle. As well Jack falling in love with Zimmy. And of course there is no Zimmy without Gamma. So much of the story is driven by relationships, it just so happens that this chapter has focused on a very different relationship and in a different way. And this chapter hasn't been about Kat romancing Paz, so much as figuring things out for her self. Kat asked Renard if he thought she was weird for having a girlfriend, but we all forget that as Jack pointed out in Residential, everyone already thought that Kat and Annie were a little weird. Kat hasn't been shown to have close human friends outside of Annie. I would argue that Smitty and Parley are more Annie's friends and not close friends to Kat. The time that Kat has spent with Paz are the only times I can think of where Kat has been hanging out with another student without Annie that isn't Aly.

I think that Paz is a close friend and something more to Kat, but that she hasn't answered to her self how she feels about her sexual identity, and that she won't have that fully answered that for some time. What I take away from this is more than just Kat has a girlfriend now and that Renard can be a that nice uncle character, but that this is a test of Kat's relationships with Annie and with her work and I can't wait to see how things play out in the future.

[asyetunnamed]

Dec 8, 2013 19:47:19 GMT alpacalypse said:

Insert eloquent prose here

I can agree with or understand a lot of points in this post (and several others). I also appreciate some of the emotive comments in this thread.


My thoughts are a lot simpler, and probably show my ignorance on these sorts of topics. I am fine with Kat being in a relationship with Paz. The decision doesn't feel that contrived; there are enough hints littered through the comic for people to see on a second look through. The way that Kat has been acting looks right (I'm pleading ignorance here). She seems to be a little shy, always double guessing herself and worrying about whether she is normal, which shows that she is actually acting like someone might. If Tom continues to treat the characters like he has, then I will have absolutely no complaints.

These opinions could change if we suddenly ended up with nearly all the characters in similar relationships - I'd then feel quite uncomfortable as it'd feel "wrong". Not that I want there to be token couples, but I've just not been in environments where this has been the case and it then feels like someone has a serious agenda. Maybe I've just read too many pieces of (bad) writing where everyone ends up in polygamous relationships with either sex and no one is in a typical relationship. Similarly, I would be very uneasy if the relationship (or any of the others) went rapidly past the level they are currently at. Again, this is due to browsing through some dire fan fiction where the writers forgot the actual ages of the characters.

I apologise if these thoughts are incredibly bigoted, but I have struggled to write them down in a way that I am satisfied with.

TL;DR: I am fine with Kat being (possibly) gay as long as Tom doesn't switch his great writing for something out of some sub-par, rated, fan fiction.

[rob0tt]

Just a couple things I think I should point out: PazKat will probably only be the focus of one chapter, and then show up a couple more times, like what's happening with Parley and Smith right now (Coward Heart is one of my favorite chapters by the way). I don't think Paz is a strong enough character to carry her relationship into the foreground; it will still be important, but certainly not the focus. I love this arc, don't get me wrong, but one chapter, maybe two, should be enough to carry it.

The other thing being that with all this citing of canon relationships, I can't help but notice a glaring omission: Robot and Shadow! I would argue that they were the first canonically gay couple in GKC. Neither of them technically have a gender, of course, but both of them are consistently referred to as male and seem to identify as boys. Remember that Tom did not have to do this; one of them could easily have been "female". Framing their relationship as gay was a choice! As far as them being together, I personally don't think there's any ambiguity, but if there's a group of people that insists that Gamma and Zimmy aren't together, hey, what can you do. I think they're pretty much as canon as you can get short of them actually calling each other their boyfriends.

Implying that adding a relationship, especially a gay relationship, reduces the value or quality of the story is just a ridiculous idea to me. Tom has proven to us time and time again that he can handle it. I am thrilled that he's writing it so well! Media representation really, really matters. Seeing fictional characters that we can relate to shows us that we are not alone. When she was young, Whoopi Goldberg saw Uhura in Star Trek and ran to her mother exclaiming "I just saw a black lady on television and she ain't no maid!" She claims that at this moment she knew she could do anything. This is true of all minorities, including sexual minorities, and while Gunnerkrigg Court obviously does not reach as wide an audience as Star Trek, I'm thrilled to see a lesbian relationship (pretty much all same-sex couples in mainstream tv are white men) portrayed so honestly and brilliantly. Hats off to you, Tom.

[freeformline]

Dec 8, 2013 20:58:21 GMT asyetunnamed said:

TL;DR: I am fine with Kat being (possibly) gay as long as Tom doesn't switch his great writing for something out of some sub-par, rated, fan fiction.

Going by Tom's opinion of fan-fictions, I don't think you have to worry about anything there! He seems to take his writing quite seriously.

[alpacalypse]

Dec 8, 2013 20:58:21 GMT asyetunnamed said:

Dec 8, 2013 19:47:19 GMT alpacalypse said:

Insert eloquent prose here

I can agree with or understand a lot of points in this post (and several others). I also appreciate some of the emotive comments in this thread.


My thoughts are a lot simpler, and probably show my ignorance on these sorts of topics. I am fine with Kat being in a relationship with Paz. The decision doesn't feel that contrived; there are enough hints littered through the comic for people to see on a second look through. The way that Kat has been acting looks right (I'm pleading ignorance here). She seems to be a little shy, always double guessing herself and worrying about whether she is normal, which shows that she is actually acting like someone might. If Tom continues to treat the characters like he has, then I will have absolutely no complaints.

These opinions could change if we suddenly ended up with nearly all the characters in similar relationships - I'd then feel quite uncomfortable as it'd feel "wrong". Not that I want there to be token couples, but I've just not been in environments where this has been the case and it then feels like someone has a serious agenda. Maybe I've just read too many pieces of (bad) writing where everyone ends up in polygamous relationships with either sex and no one is in a typical relationship. Similarly, I would be very uneasy if the relationship (or any of the others) went rapidly past the level they are currently at. Again, this is due to browsing through some dire fan fiction where the writers forgot the actual ages of the characters.

I apologise if these thoughts are incredibly bigoted, but I have struggled to write them down in a way that I am satisfied with.

TL;DR: I am fine with Kat being (possibly) gay as long as Tom doesn't switch his great writing for something out of some sub-par, rated, fan fiction.

Not quite sure if what I wrote was really eloquent or prose, but I appreciate the comment

I don't think your comments were bigoted at all and explained very succinctly. I do think that fan fiction can kind of ruin stories and they forget to ask the very important question of "Are they legal?" I think Tom has a very good sense of how old they are and that he will maintain his high quality, novel worthy level of writing while telling a story that can have a good fill of love and relationships without taking away from the storytelling we have become so used to.

As far as Shadow and Robot, I should have mentioned them though they have been mentioned many times as they are both males (Shadow is a boy and Robot identifies as one), but beyond being a gay couple, I think they represent that classic sort of love that shows that two people of different backgrounds (one a being of the forest created by a deity, the other a robot from the Court built by humans) can come to love one another. They have one of the purest relationships I can think of since they are physically incompatible and but love each other for who they are. They are the embodiment of the technology vs nature theme come together having overcome their differences. The fact that they are a "gay" couple is a bonus.

[spritznar]

Dec 9, 2013 0:44:12 GMT freeformline said:

Dec 8, 2013 20:58:21 GMT asyetunnamed said:

TL;DR: I am fine with Kat being (possibly) gay as long as Tom doesn't switch his great writing for something out of some sub-par, rated, fan fiction.

Going by Tom's opinion of fan-fictions, I don't think you have to worry about anything there! He seems to take his writing quite seriously.

In the interest of clarity and fairness; plenty of fanfiction authors take their writing seriously also, it's just the lack of editing process and writing standards means you have to dig through the bad (like boxbot levels of bad) stuff yourself to find it

I'm not actually aware of tom's opinion of fanfiction so I'm mostly responding to your last sentence which seems to imply 'takes his writing seriously [as opposed to fanfiction]'. Hopefully I don't sound too defensive, I just happen to like fanfiction quite a bit and it's often maligned as a genre

Edit: it also occurs to me that disliking subpar writing doesn't actually gaurantee your writing won't be subpar...

tl;dr: I feel like the argument should just be "don't worry, Tom seems to take his writing quite seriously"

[Señor Goose]

Dec 9, 2013 5:10:10 GMT spritznar said:

Dec 9, 2013 0:44:12 GMT freeformline said:

Going by Tom's opinion of fan-fictions, I don't think you have to worry about anything there! He seems to take his writing quite seriously.

In the interest of clarity and fairness; plenty of fanfiction authors take their writing seriously also, it's just the lack of editing process and writing standards means you have to dig through the bad (like boxbot levels of bad) stuff yourself to find it

I'm not actually aware of tom's opinion of fanfiction so I'm mostly responding to your last sentence which seems to imply 'takes his writing seriously [as opposed to fanfiction]'. Hopefully I don't sound too defensive, I just happen to like fanfiction quite a bit and it's often maligned as a genre

Edit: it also occurs to me that disliking subpar writing doesn't actually gaurantee your writing won't be subpar... Really I feel like the argument should just be "don't worry, Tom seems to take his writing quite seriously"

It's too bad that most people think of My Immortal when they think of fanfiction. There really is great stuff hidden there.

[freeformline]

Dec 9, 2013 5:10:10 GMT spritznar said:

Dec 9, 2013 0:44:12 GMT freeformline said:

Going by Tom's opinion of fan-fictions, I don't think you have to worry about anything there! He seems to take his writing quite seriously.

In the interest of clarity and fairness; plenty of fanfiction authors take their writing seriously also, it's just the lack of editing process and writing standards means you have to dig through the bad (like boxbot levels of bad) stuff yourself to find it

I'm not actually aware of tom's opinion of fanfiction so I'm mostly responding to your last sentence which seems to imply 'takes his writing seriously [as opposed to fanfiction]'. Hopefully I don't sound too defensive, I just happen to like fanfiction quite a bit and it's often maligned as a genre

Edit: it also occurs to me that disliking subpar writing doesn't actually gaurantee your writing won't be subpar...

tl;dr: I feel like the argument should just be "don't worry, Tom seems to take his writing quite seriously"

Fair enough. I mean that sort of in the way that literary authors think themselves more serious than trade authors, so Tom is probably too invested in making a complex work to reduce himself to the level of common fanfiction. I mean no offense, and if I am coming of as ignorant or boorish, I apologize.

I've never read much fanfiction at all (because most of it isn't very good), but I don't mean to slight it or its writers. I simply mean that Tom isn't too fond of the style of much fanfiction, which is often overly erotic or romantic regardless of character nature or age. Again, that is with the understanding that it isn't all like that, and some of it is very good. I don't recall Tom specifically discussing written fanfiction, but he certainly isn't a fan of people eroticizing his work through visual art. (Note: This paragraph sounds awkward because I wrote the top paragraph first and was too lazy to re-write this one to fit.)

[GK Sierra]

Dec 9, 2013 5:10:10 GMT spritznar said:

I just happen to like fanfiction quite a bit and it's often maligned as a genre

Oh yes. I myself received a few friendly jabs when I started an FF thread.

To most people fanfiction is synonymous with terrible writing because you have to crawl through nine bad ones to get to one gem.

After a while, they just assume automatically that there cannot possibly be any exceptions.

[Toloc]

Dec 9, 2013 5:29:32 GMT Señor Goose said:

Dec 9, 2013 5:10:10 GMT spritznar said:

In the interest of clarity and fairness; plenty of fanfiction authors take their writing seriously also, it's just the lack of editing process and writing standards means you have to dig through the bad (like boxbot levels of bad) stuff yourself to find it

I'm not actually aware of tom's opinion of fanfiction so I'm mostly responding to your last sentence which seems to imply 'takes his writing seriously [as opposed to fanfiction]'. Hopefully I don't sound too defensive, I just happen to like fanfiction quite a bit and it's often maligned as a genre

Edit: it also occurs to me that disliking subpar writing doesn't actually gaurantee your writing won't be subpar... Really I feel like the argument should just be "don't worry, Tom seems to take his writing quite seriously"

It's too bad that most people think of My Immortal when they think of fanfiction. There really is great stuff hidden there.

I have read quite a bit published, sometimes even critically acclaimed original fiction that made me want to smash my head against things until I forgot I read it. I read fanfiction that approached or surpassed the original.
Most of it is between kinda bad, cringe worthy and "What the hell did I just read". But if you dig you'll find some gold.

I've witnessed one case where a girl went from ~15 years old writer of Harry Potter satire and REALLY Hard Core pornography, to internet phenomenon, to actually getting a job from what she did and even getting her own TV show on German national TV over the course of several years.

I still proclaim My Immortal to be the work of one really dedicated Troll. Everything else would rip apart the last scraps of my believe in humanity.

[GK Sierra]

And of course we all know how 50 Shades of Grey started out as a Twilight fanfic and went on to make it's author filthy stinking rich (after a few name changes of course).

[winsbury]

SO guys how about that on-topic subject, yeah?

[zimmyzims]

Dec 9, 2013 5:29:32 GMT Señor Goose said:

It's too bad that most people think of My Immortal when they think of fanfiction.

First time I even heard of that. Won't go and check. You made good enough commercial of it.

When I think of fanfiction, I think of naked pictures of Kat's mother.

SPOILER: Click to show

please Tom, don't ban me for this, I did not make any such pictures, neither did I post them nor even search for them; I merely thought about them

Then again, I very seldom think about fanfiction.

Dec 9, 2013 11:44:11 GMT winsbury said:

SO guys how about that on-topic subject, yeah?

Hmm... that is a possibility.

[quinkgirl]

Uuuugh fanfictions. They have swallowed up my life, not before making me waste one and a half ink cartridges and 500+ pieces of paper.

[Señor Goose]

Dec 9, 2013 15:18:33 GMT quinkgirl said:

Uuuugh fanfictions. They have swallowed up my life, not before making me waste one and a half ink cartridges and 500+ pieces of paper.

Oh, you print them? Why?

[warrl]

Dec 9, 2013 5:29:32 GMT Señor Goose said:

It's too bad that most people think of My Immortal when they think of fanfiction. There really is great stuff hidden there.

This "great stuff" would benefit mightily from the attentions of a competent copy-editor.

Now, sort of on-topic: some things I thought of and seriously considered putting in this thread but thought another thread was a better choice. They aren't about our reaction, but Annie's.

[The Anarch]

Dec 9, 2013 15:28:10 GMT Señor Goose said:

Dec 9, 2013 15:18:33 GMT quinkgirl said:

Uuuugh fanfictions. They have swallowed up my life, not before making me waste one and a half ink cartridges and 500+ pieces of paper.

Oh, you print them? Why?

Some folks like to read other places than just at the computer and don't have/like tablets.

[Señor Goose]

Dec 9, 2013 16:08:54 GMT The Anarch said:

Dec 9, 2013 15:28:10 GMT Señor Goose said:

Oh, you print them? Why?

Some folks like to read other places than just at the computer and don't have/like tablets.

I don't know, I guess I'm just abhorrent to leaving a paper trail.

[quinkgirl]

Dec 9, 2013 16:08:54 GMT The Anarch said:

Dec 9, 2013 15:28:10 GMT Señor Goose said:

Oh, you print them? Why?

Some folks like to read other places than just at the computer and don't have/like tablets.

I used to print them because my computer time was super monitored. Like fifteen minutes a day. Then my parents got me an e reader, so I could stop killing trees.

[jasmijn]

Dec 9, 2013 11:44:11 GMT winsbury said:

SO guys how about that on-topic subject, yeah?

I think we're all done discussing Kat's sexuality. (Gasp! Can you imagine? )

[freeformline]

Dec 9, 2013 16:12:23 GMT Señor Goose said:

Dec 9, 2013 16:08:54 GMT The Anarch said:

Some folks like to read other places than just at the computer and don't have/like tablets.

I don't know, I guess I'm just abhorrent to leaving a paper trail.

That's really the only thing keeping me from printing everything I want to read that's over two pages long. The only thing I hate more than reading things off of a computer screen is wasting money (or single-handedly destroying our world's forests, which are so dear to me).